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Was 9/11 A Conspiracy?

pozessed
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2/9/2013 11:24:18 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
I believe that planes hit the building and yada yada, but I am worried that 9/11 may have been constructed or allowed to happen by the US government for reasons unbeknownst to the public.

I'm curious if there is any proof to my suspicions that comes from credible sources.
ConservativeAmerican
Posts: 1,676
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2/9/2013 11:26:48 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 2/9/2013 11:24:18 AM, pozessed wrote:
I believe that planes hit the building and yada yada, but I am worried that 9/11 may have been constructed or allowed to happen by the US government for reasons unbeknownst to the public.

I'm curious if there is any proof to my suspicions that comes from credible sources.

Most logical sources (Not Micheal Moore conspiracies), do not point to the conspiracies, the only thing the conspiracy theorists have on 9/11 is Building Seven, which is still not conclusive evidence that the gov't orchestrated 9/11
lewis20
Posts: 5,093
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2/9/2013 1:19:37 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
The secretary of transportation's testimony was pretty damning, where he claimed that Cheney repeatedly told the fighters to stand down.
"If you are a racist I will attack you with the north"- Abraham Lincoln

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lewis20
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2/9/2013 1:22:59 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
Nova did a great documentary on it called the spy factory. It explained how the NSA was tracking the terrorists years before the attack, but refused to cooperate with the FBI.
"If you are a racist I will attack you with the north"- Abraham Lincoln

"Do not wear clothing woven of two kinds of material" - Leviticus 19 19

"War is a racket" - Smedley Butler
Stephen_Hawkins
Posts: 5,316
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2/9/2013 1:49:25 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
No.

Yes, it was used as an excuse to go to war in Afghanistan, which was a stupid idea because war would have been a good idea anyway.

But no, it wasn't a conspiracy.

Conspiracies are either:

1) Like the Thatcher coverups which are basically public secrets.
2) Normal tragedies which, when occurring, people say "conspiracy" to avoid facing up to the absurd.
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malcolmxy
Posts: 2,855
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2/9/2013 2:58:10 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 2/9/2013 11:26:48 AM, ConservativeAmerican wrote:
At 2/9/2013 11:24:18 AM, pozessed wrote:
I believe that planes hit the building and yada yada, but I am worried that 9/11 may have been constructed or allowed to happen by the US government for reasons unbeknownst to the public.

I'm curious if there is any proof to my suspicions that comes from credible sources.

Most logical sources (Not Micheal Moore conspiracies), do not point to the conspiracies, the only thing the conspiracy theorists have on 9/11 is Building Seven, which is still not conclusive evidence that the gov't orchestrated 9/11

it was Building Eight.
War is over, if you want it.

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ConservativeAmerican
Posts: 1,676
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2/9/2013 3:04:14 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 2/9/2013 2:58:10 PM, malcolmxy wrote:
At 2/9/2013 11:26:48 AM, ConservativeAmerican wrote:
At 2/9/2013 11:24:18 AM, pozessed wrote:
I believe that planes hit the building and yada yada, but I am worried that 9/11 may have been constructed or allowed to happen by the US government for reasons unbeknownst to the public.

I'm curious if there is any proof to my suspicions that comes from credible sources.

Most logical sources (Not Micheal Moore conspiracies), do not point to the conspiracies, the only thing the conspiracy theorists have on 9/11 is Building Seven, which is still not conclusive evidence that the gov't orchestrated 9/11

it was Building Eight.

Twas' not

http://911research.wtc7.net...
ConservativeAmerican
Posts: 1,676
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2/9/2013 3:10:30 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 2/9/2013 3:05:55 PM, malcolmxy wrote:
my bad. you're right.

I only know cause for a while I was hounding on Lupe Fiasco for claiming his own anti american sentiments that included supporting the 9/11 conspiracy and saying every president was a terrorist, lol
ConservativeAmerican
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2/9/2013 3:11:14 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 2/9/2013 3:10:30 PM, ConservativeAmerican wrote:
At 2/9/2013 3:05:55 PM, malcolmxy wrote:
my bad. you're right.

I only know cause for a while I was hounding on Lupe Fiasco for claiming his own anti american sentiments that included supporting the 9/11 conspiracy and saying every president was a terrorist, lol

I mean professing his own anti american sentiments

It's too bad that the only politics kids hear about is one month every four years and when rappers talk about shooting the police, : /
malcolmxy
Posts: 2,855
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2/9/2013 3:13:33 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 2/9/2013 3:11:14 PM, ConservativeAmerican wrote:
At 2/9/2013 3:10:30 PM, ConservativeAmerican wrote:
At 2/9/2013 3:05:55 PM, malcolmxy wrote:
my bad. you're right.

I only know cause for a while I was hounding on Lupe Fiasco for claiming his own anti american sentiments that included supporting the 9/11 conspiracy and saying every president was a terrorist, lol

I mean professing his own anti american sentiments

It's too bad that the only politics kids hear about is one month every four years and when rappers talk about shooting the police, : /

Being anti-government and anti-tyranny isn't necessarily being anti-american.
War is over, if you want it.

Meet Dr. Stupid and his assistants - http://www.debate.org...
ConservativeAmerican
Posts: 1,676
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2/9/2013 3:27:25 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 2/9/2013 3:13:33 PM, malcolmxy wrote:
At 2/9/2013 3:11:14 PM, ConservativeAmerican wrote:
At 2/9/2013 3:10:30 PM, ConservativeAmerican wrote:
At 2/9/2013 3:05:55 PM, malcolmxy wrote:
my bad. you're right.

I only know cause for a while I was hounding on Lupe Fiasco for claiming his own anti american sentiments that included supporting the 9/11 conspiracy and saying every president was a terrorist, lol

I mean professing his own anti american sentiments

It's too bad that the only politics kids hear about is one month every four years and when rappers talk about shooting the police, : /



Being anti-government and anti-tyranny isn't necessarily being anti-american.

Here are a few excerpts from the song I am speaking of.

"9/11, Building 7, did they really pull it?
(Obviously hates America so much he wants people to think we would blow up our own country)

"Gaza Strip was getting bombed, Obama didn't say (s word)"
(Obviously thinks that HAMAS should be able to freely antagonize the Israelis)

"Jihad is not a holy war, where's that in the worship?"
(Obviously thinks Osama and his cronies are nice guys who didn't do 9/11 as stated above)

"Israel don't take my side, 'cause look how far you've pushed them"
(Probably thinks that even though Arab nations were the belligerents in all 3 Israel wars that somehow Israel 'pushed them')

Such an intelligent, enlightened rebel, he'll be up there with Che, scum bag.
ConservativeAmerican
Posts: 1,676
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2/9/2013 3:32:06 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 2/9/2013 3:27:25 PM, ConservativeAmerican wrote:
At 2/9/2013 3:13:33 PM, malcolmxy wrote:
At 2/9/2013 3:11:14 PM, ConservativeAmerican wrote:
At 2/9/2013 3:10:30 PM, ConservativeAmerican wrote:
At 2/9/2013 3:05:55 PM, malcolmxy wrote:
my bad. you're right.

I only know cause for a while I was hounding on Lupe Fiasco for claiming his own anti american sentiments that included supporting the 9/11 conspiracy and saying every president was a terrorist, lol

I mean professing his own anti american sentiments

It's too bad that the only politics kids hear about is one month every four years and when rappers talk about shooting the police, : /



Being anti-government and anti-tyranny isn't necessarily being anti-american.


Here are a few excerpts from the song I am speaking of.


"9/11, Building 7, did they really pull it?
(Obviously hates America so much he wants people to think we would blow up our own country)

"Gaza Strip was getting bombed, Obama didn't say (s word)"
(Obviously thinks that HAMAS should be able to freely antagonize the Israelis)

"Jihad is not a holy war, where's that in the worship?"
(Obviously thinks Osama and his cronies are nice guys who didn't do 9/11 as stated above)

"Israel don't take my side, 'cause look how far you've pushed them"
(Probably thinks that even though Arab nations were the belligerents in all 3 Israel wars that somehow Israel 'pushed them')

Such an intelligent, enlightened rebel, he'll be up there with Che, scum bag.

He also said this "My fight against terrorism, to me, the biggest terrorist is Obama and the United States of America. I'm trying to fight the terrorism that's actually causing the other forms of terrorism. You know, the root cause of terrorism is the stuff the U.S. government allows to happen. "

That's the liberal blame america first policy ten fold.
malcolmxy
Posts: 2,855
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2/9/2013 3:36:11 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 2/9/2013 3:32:06 PM, ConservativeAmerican wrote:
At 2/9/2013 3:27:25 PM, ConservativeAmerican wrote:
At 2/9/2013 3:13:33 PM, malcolmxy wrote:
At 2/9/2013 3:11:14 PM, ConservativeAmerican wrote:
At 2/9/2013 3:10:30 PM, ConservativeAmerican wrote:
At 2/9/2013 3:05:55 PM, malcolmxy wrote:
my bad. you're right.

I only know cause for a while I was hounding on Lupe Fiasco for claiming his own anti american sentiments that included supporting the 9/11 conspiracy and saying every president was a terrorist, lol

I mean professing his own anti american sentiments

It's too bad that the only politics kids hear about is one month every four years and when rappers talk about shooting the police, : /



Being anti-government and anti-tyranny isn't necessarily being anti-american.


Here are a few excerpts from the song I am speaking of.


"9/11, Building 7, did they really pull it?
(Obviously hates America so much he wants people to think we would blow up our own country)

"Gaza Strip was getting bombed, Obama didn't say (s word)"
(Obviously thinks that HAMAS should be able to freely antagonize the Israelis)

"Jihad is not a holy war, where's that in the worship?"
(Obviously thinks Osama and his cronies are nice guys who didn't do 9/11 as stated above)

"Israel don't take my side, 'cause look how far you've pushed them"
(Probably thinks that even though Arab nations were the belligerents in all 3 Israel wars that somehow Israel 'pushed them')

Such an intelligent, enlightened rebel, he'll be up there with Che, scum bag.


He also said this "My fight against terrorism, to me, the biggest terrorist is Obama and the United States of America. I'm trying to fight the terrorism that's actually causing the other forms of terrorism. You know, the root cause of terrorism is the stuff the U.S. government allows to happen. "

That's the liberal blame america first policy ten fold.

Blaming our government for an action isn't blaming America. It's blaming those who control American public resources.

You "blame America" for tax policy.

When people call criticizing our government "blame America", they are necessarily UNAMERICAN. See 1st Amendment for more information.
War is over, if you want it.

Meet Dr. Stupid and his assistants - http://www.debate.org...
ConservativeAmerican
Posts: 1,676
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2/9/2013 3:38:06 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 2/9/2013 3:36:11 PM, malcolmxy wrote:
At 2/9/2013 3:32:06 PM, ConservativeAmerican wrote:
At 2/9/2013 3:27:25 PM, ConservativeAmerican wrote:
At 2/9/2013 3:13:33 PM, malcolmxy wrote:
At 2/9/2013 3:11:14 PM, ConservativeAmerican wrote:
At 2/9/2013 3:10:30 PM, ConservativeAmerican wrote:
At 2/9/2013 3:05:55 PM, malcolmxy wrote:
my bad. you're right.

I only know cause for a while I was hounding on Lupe Fiasco for claiming his own anti american sentiments that included supporting the 9/11 conspiracy and saying every president was a terrorist, lol

I mean professing his own anti american sentiments

It's too bad that the only politics kids hear about is one month every four years and when rappers talk about shooting the police, : /



Being anti-government and anti-tyranny isn't necessarily being anti-american.


Here are a few excerpts from the song I am speaking of.


"9/11, Building 7, did they really pull it?
(Obviously hates America so much he wants people to think we would blow up our own country)

"Gaza Strip was getting bombed, Obama didn't say (s word)"
(Obviously thinks that HAMAS should be able to freely antagonize the Israelis)

"Jihad is not a holy war, where's that in the worship?"
(Obviously thinks Osama and his cronies are nice guys who didn't do 9/11 as stated above)

"Israel don't take my side, 'cause look how far you've pushed them"
(Probably thinks that even though Arab nations were the belligerents in all 3 Israel wars that somehow Israel 'pushed them')

Such an intelligent, enlightened rebel, he'll be up there with Che, scum bag.


He also said this "My fight against terrorism, to me, the biggest terrorist is Obama and the United States of America. I'm trying to fight the terrorism that's actually causing the other forms of terrorism. You know, the root cause of terrorism is the stuff the U.S. government allows to happen. "

That's the liberal blame america first policy ten fold.

Blaming our government for an action isn't blaming America. It's blaming those who control American public resources.

You "blame America" for tax policy.

When people call criticizing our government "blame America", they are necessarily UNAMERICAN. See 1st Amendment for more information.

They have the right to be scumbags who blame us for terrorism and terrorists slaughtering innocent people, but that doesn't mean anything, just because they have the right.

Communists have the right to have their own party and they do, so do Neo-Nazis, doesn't mean they are right because they can.
malcolmxy
Posts: 2,855
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2/9/2013 3:59:44 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 2/9/2013 3:38:06 PM, ConservativeAmerican wrote:

They have the right to be scumbags who blame us for terrorism and terrorists slaughtering innocent people, but that doesn't mean anything, just because they have the right.

Communists have the right to have their own party and they do, so do Neo-Nazis, doesn't mean they are right because they can.

So, you don't think our Middle East foreign policy has anything to do with why people in the middle east find us so distasteful?

You don't think that Drone Attacks are terrorism (given that they primarily kill civilians and that they're scary as hell?)

Does your head stay warm being all buried and such?
War is over, if you want it.

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imabench
Posts: 21,206
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2/9/2013 4:15:16 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 2/9/2013 11:24:18 AM, pozessed wrote:
I believe that planes hit the building and yada yada, but I am worried that 9/11 may have been constructed or allowed to happen by the US government for reasons unbeknownst to the public.

The government, FBI, CIA, etc. was too incompetent to see 9/11 coming when there were clear warning signs and didnt act until it was far too late. The government allowed 9/11 to happen because of their incompetence, not because it was all part of some diabolical plan....

I'm curious if there is any proof to my suspicions that comes from credible sources.

Most "evidence" for 9/11 conspiracies come from the same type of bullsh*t sources that usually follow this pattern:

1) A report or a reporter says something about the attacks that are later proven to not be the case or false
2) Conspiracy theorists see these mistakes and then automatically assume these flubs are the truth while assuming everything else is a flat out lie.
3) They take these assumptions and imagine the evilest possible intentions or motives behind why someone might do such a thing
4) They automatically think thats true and then start preaching it on the internet.

So basically every 9/11 conspiracy theory is 1 part someone-made-a-flub, 1 part wild imagination, and 3 parts of blindly assuming they are right....
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Wnope
Posts: 6,924
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2/9/2013 4:18:37 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 2/9/2013 4:15:16 PM, imabench wrote:
At 2/9/2013 11:24:18 AM, pozessed wrote:
I believe that planes hit the building and yada yada, but I am worried that 9/11 may have been constructed or allowed to happen by the US government for reasons unbeknownst to the public.

The government, FBI, CIA, etc. was too incompetent to see 9/11 coming when there were clear warning signs and didnt act until it was far too late. The government allowed 9/11 to happen because of their incompetence, not because it was all part of some diabolical plan....

I'm curious if there is any proof to my suspicions that comes from credible sources.

Most "evidence" for 9/11 conspiracies come from the same type of bullsh*t sources that usually follow this pattern:

1) A report or a reporter says something about the attacks that are later proven to not be the case or false
2) Conspiracy theorists see these mistakes and then automatically assume these flubs are the truth while assuming everything else is a flat out lie.
3) They take these assumptions and imagine the evilest possible intentions or motives behind why someone might do such a thing
4) They automatically think thats true and then start preaching it on the internet.

So basically every 9/11 conspiracy theory is 1 part someone-made-a-flub, 1 part wild imagination, and 3 parts of blindly assuming they are right....

In the CIA/FBIs defense, there were billions of pieces of intelligence information with stuff like "Terrorist x is training y combatants to z." It's quite easy to back-track and say "HOLY CRAP, THEY KNEW BIN LADEN WAS TRAINING AIRPLANE PILOTS TO SUICIDE BOMB!?"

People ignore the signal:noise ration in intelligence gathering.
lewis20
Posts: 5,093
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2/9/2013 4:24:09 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 2/9/2013 4:18:37 PM, Wnope wrote:
At 2/9/2013 4:15:16 PM, imabench wrote:
At 2/9/2013 11:24:18 AM, pozessed wrote:
I believe that planes hit the building and yada yada, but I am worried that 9/11 may have been constructed or allowed to happen by the US government for reasons unbeknownst to the public.

The government, FBI, CIA, etc. was too incompetent to see 9/11 coming when there were clear warning signs and didnt act until it was far too late. The government allowed 9/11 to happen because of their incompetence, not because it was all part of some diabolical plan....

I'm curious if there is any proof to my suspicions that comes from credible sources.

Most "evidence" for 9/11 conspiracies come from the same type of bullsh*t sources that usually follow this pattern:

1) A report or a reporter says something about the attacks that are later proven to not be the case or false
2) Conspiracy theorists see these mistakes and then automatically assume these flubs are the truth while assuming everything else is a flat out lie.
3) They take these assumptions and imagine the evilest possible intentions or motives behind why someone might do such a thing
4) They automatically think thats true and then start preaching it on the internet.

So basically every 9/11 conspiracy theory is 1 part someone-made-a-flub, 1 part wild imagination, and 3 parts of blindly assuming they are right....

In the CIA/FBIs defense, there were billions of pieces of intelligence information with stuff like "Terrorist x is training y combatants to z." It's quite easy to back-track and say "HOLY CRAP, THEY KNEW BIN LADEN WAS TRAINING AIRPLANE PILOTS TO SUICIDE BOMB!?"

People ignore the signal:noise ration in intelligence gathering.

You would think that they would refuse visas to terrorists though wouldn't you? And the NSA refusal to share Intel with the FBI is really messed up.
"If you are a racist I will attack you with the north"- Abraham Lincoln

"Do not wear clothing woven of two kinds of material" - Leviticus 19 19

"War is a racket" - Smedley Butler
Double_R
Posts: 4,886
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2/9/2013 11:49:20 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 2/9/2013 11:24:18 AM, pozessed wrote:
I believe that planes hit the building and yada yada, but I am worried that 9/11 may have been constructed or allowed to happen by the US government for reasons unbeknownst to the public.

Your concerns are simply based on a lack of trust in our government. Lack of trust may be a logical basis for the belief that someone would do something, the question here is whether they did. You have no reason to believe they did.

Your willingness to accept two completely contradictory possibilities as both being reasonable demonstrates that you have no sound basis for either of them. For example suppose you find the collapse of WTC7 inexplicable without the use of explosives, concluding that government inside forces perpetrated the collapse. That completely contradicts the idea that the government sat back and did nothing, purposely allowing Al Qaeda to carry out its attack.

To believe the latter you must disregard the former, to believe the former you must disregard the latter. An unwillingness to disregard either concludes that the only consistency in your beliefs is an unjustified end result, which is that the government did it.
Wnope
Posts: 6,924
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2/10/2013 12:05:58 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 2/9/2013 4:24:09 PM, lewis20 wrote:
At 2/9/2013 4:18:37 PM, Wnope wrote:
At 2/9/2013 4:15:16 PM, imabench wrote:
At 2/9/2013 11:24:18 AM, pozessed wrote:
I believe that planes hit the building and yada yada, but I am worried that 9/11 may have been constructed or allowed to happen by the US government for reasons unbeknownst to the public.

The government, FBI, CIA, etc. was too incompetent to see 9/11 coming when there were clear warning signs and didnt act until it was far too late. The government allowed 9/11 to happen because of their incompetence, not because it was all part of some diabolical plan....

I'm curious if there is any proof to my suspicions that comes from credible sources.

Most "evidence" for 9/11 conspiracies come from the same type of bullsh*t sources that usually follow this pattern:

1) A report or a reporter says something about the attacks that are later proven to not be the case or false
2) Conspiracy theorists see these mistakes and then automatically assume these flubs are the truth while assuming everything else is a flat out lie.
3) They take these assumptions and imagine the evilest possible intentions or motives behind why someone might do such a thing
4) They automatically think thats true and then start preaching it on the internet.

So basically every 9/11 conspiracy theory is 1 part someone-made-a-flub, 1 part wild imagination, and 3 parts of blindly assuming they are right....

In the CIA/FBIs defense, there were billions of pieces of intelligence information with stuff like "Terrorist x is training y combatants to z." It's quite easy to back-track and say "HOLY CRAP, THEY KNEW BIN LADEN WAS TRAINING AIRPLANE PILOTS TO SUICIDE BOMB!?"

People ignore the signal:noise ration in intelligence gathering.

You would think that they would refuse visas to terrorists though wouldn't you? And the NSA refusal to share Intel with the FBI is really messed up.

Oh, don't even get me started on government beaucracy and inefficiency.

It was horrible, and I'm not sure how much better Homeland Security has made things.
pozessed
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2/10/2013 7:59:56 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 2/9/2013 11:49:20 PM, Double_R wrote:
At 2/9/2013 11:24:18 AM, pozessed wrote:
I believe that planes hit the building and yada yada, but I am worried that 9/11 may have been constructed or allowed to happen by the US government for reasons unbeknownst to the public.

Your concerns are simply based on a lack of trust in our government. Lack of trust may be a logical basis for the belief that someone would do something, the question here is whether they did. You have no reason to believe they did.

Your willingness to accept two completely contradictory possibilities as both being reasonable demonstrates that you have no sound basis for either of them. For example suppose you find the collapse of WTC7 inexplicable without the use of explosives, concluding that government inside forces perpetrated the collapse. That completely contradicts the idea that the government sat back and did nothing, purposely allowing Al Qaeda to carry out its attack.

To believe the latter you must disregard the former, to believe the former you must disregard the latter. An unwillingness to disregard either concludes that the only consistency in your beliefs is an unjustified end result, which is that the government did it.

If you look, you undrlined the word or which insinuates one or the other happened, so assuming I think both happened would mean that I would use e word and not or.

Also, why should I trust the government? Do they not make rules and regulations that sometimes goes against a majorities wishes in order to obtain goals that would benefit itself or its financial constituents more so than the agendas of the people which it is supposed to govern.
royalpaladin
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2/10/2013 8:06:17 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 2/9/2013 3:27:25 PM, ConservativeAmerican wrote:
At 2/9/2013 3:13:33 PM, malcolmxy wrote:
At 2/9/2013 3:11:14 PM, ConservativeAmerican wrote:
At 2/9/2013 3:10:30 PM, ConservativeAmerican wrote:
At 2/9/2013 3:05:55 PM, malcolmxy wrote:
my bad. you're right.

I only know cause for a while I was hounding on Lupe Fiasco for claiming his own anti american sentiments that included supporting the 9/11 conspiracy and saying every president was a terrorist, lol

I mean professing his own anti american sentiments

It's too bad that the only politics kids hear about is one month every four years and when rappers talk about shooting the police, : /



Being anti-government and anti-tyranny isn't necessarily being anti-american.


Here are a few excerpts from the song I am speaking of.


"9/11, Building 7, did they really pull it?
(Obviously hates America so much he wants people to think we would blow up our own country)

The government has attacked the American people in the past. Pointing this out doesn't make him anti-American.
"Gaza Strip was getting bombed, Obama didn't say (s word)"
(Obviously thinks that HAMAS should be able to freely antagonize the Israelis)

No, it means that he thinks Obama should have done something to stop Israel from terrorizing Hamas and pushing them to attack Israel.
"Jihad is not a holy war, where's that in the worship?"
(Obviously thinks Osama and his cronies are nice guys who didn't do 9/11 as stated above)

Um, I don't see how that implies this at all. It sounds to me like it means that Jihad is not part of Islam according to him. Can you post a link to the song lyrics or to the song?
"Israel don't take my side, 'cause look how far you've pushed them"
(Probably thinks that even though Arab nations were the belligerents in all 3 Israel wars that somehow Israel 'pushed them')

I see, so Israel is justified in attacking Gaza Strip because other Arabs attacked it. I guess we should execute you because there are other Caucasians on death row. Also, your history is totally off. Israel initiated at least one of the wars.
Such an intelligent, enlightened rebel, he'll be up there with Che, scum bag.
Do you even know whom Che was rebelling against?
malcolmxy
Posts: 2,855
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2/10/2013 10:50:24 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 2/9/2013 4:18:37 PM, Wnope wrote:
At 2/9/2013 4:15:16 PM, imabench wrote:
At 2/9/2013 11:24:18 AM, pozessed wrote:
I believe that planes hit the building and yada yada, but I am worried that 9/11 may have been constructed or allowed to happen by the US government for reasons unbeknownst to the public.

The government, FBI, CIA, etc. was too incompetent to see 9/11 coming when there were clear warning signs and didnt act until it was far too late. The government allowed 9/11 to happen because of their incompetence, not because it was all part of some diabolical plan....

I'm curious if there is any proof to my suspicions that comes from credible sources.

Most "evidence" for 9/11 conspiracies come from the same type of bullsh*t sources that usually follow this pattern:

1) A report or a reporter says something about the attacks that are later proven to not be the case or false
2) Conspiracy theorists see these mistakes and then automatically assume these flubs are the truth while assuming everything else is a flat out lie.
3) They take these assumptions and imagine the evilest possible intentions or motives behind why someone might do such a thing
4) They automatically think thats true and then start preaching it on the internet.

So basically every 9/11 conspiracy theory is 1 part someone-made-a-flub, 1 part wild imagination, and 3 parts of blindly assuming they are right....

In the CIA/FBIs defense, there were billions of pieces of intelligence information with stuff like "Terrorist x is training y combatants to z." It's quite easy to back-track and say "HOLY CRAP, THEY KNEW BIN LADEN WAS TRAINING AIRPLANE PILOTS TO SUICIDE BOMB!?"

People ignore the signal:noise ration in intelligence gathering.

Clinton seemed to think he was a pretty serious threat when he was in office, and there was a ton of intelligence going around at the time because The White House wasn't allowing it to go through the proper vetting process and they were pulling what they wanted, when they wanted it (people say a lot of sh!t for money...you don't give them more money to say more ridiculous sh!t until you verify that the 1st round of ridiculous sh!t wasn't actually that ridiculous. We weren't doing that then, when we always had before. Why? I don't know, and perhaps you give the FBI/CIA a break, because they actually did want to vet the info they were getting, but I don't give the gov't a break, because the Executive Branch was creating and fostering this environment of highly shaky and voluminous intelligence information environment)

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Double_R
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2/10/2013 2:32:58 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 2/10/2013 7:59:56 AM, pozessed wrote:
At 2/9/2013 11:49:20 PM, Double_R wrote:
At 2/9/2013 11:24:18 AM, pozessed wrote:
I believe that planes hit the building and yada yada, but I am worried that 9/11 may have been constructed or allowed to happen by the US government for reasons unbeknownst to the public.

Your concerns are simply based on a lack of trust in our government. Lack of trust may be a logical basis for the belief that someone would do something, the question here is whether they did. You have no reason to believe they did.

Your willingness to accept two completely contradictory possibilities as both being reasonable demonstrates that you have no sound basis for either of them. For example suppose you find the collapse of WTC7 inexplicable without the use of explosives, concluding that government inside forces perpetrated the collapse. That completely contradicts the idea that the government sat back and did nothing, purposely allowing Al Qaeda to carry out its attack.

To believe the latter you must disregard the former, to believe the former you must disregard the latter. An unwillingness to disregard either concludes that the only consistency in your beliefs is an unjustified end result, which is that the government did it.

If you look, you undrlined the word or which insinuates one or the other happened, so assuming I think both happened would mean that I would use e word and not or.

Think back to what just I pointed out. The two different conspiracy theories regarding 9/11 are "Let it happen on purpose" (LYHOP), and "made it happen on purpose" (MYHOP). My point is that LYHOP and MYHOP completely contradict each other. If you show me a piece of evidence supporting LYHOP, then it only has valid justification if you disregard the evidence for MYHOP. So if you are willing to believe that they are both reasonable possibilities, you can only remain logically consistent if you are unwilling to validate the evidence for either. In other words, you are not concerned with whether the evidence you are using to justify your beliefs is accurate and valid, your concern is holding onto your belief in the end result that the government is responsible.

If you still don't quite understand then let me ask you; when you claim that the government might have perpetrated the attacks, is the collapse of WTC7 being "physically impossible" part of what you believe makes that conclusion justified? If so, then your willingness to believe that the government might have simply allowed Al Qaeda to attack and nothing more(LYHOP), is an automatic willingness to disregard your claim that WTC7's collapse was physically impossible. And if you are willing to disregard WTC7 as evidence then you admit that WTC7 is not strong evidence, leaving you with no valid justification in your acceptance of MYHOP as a reasonable conclusion.

This works both ways and basically rules out any and all evidence you may have as being strong enough to validate either of your theories. The only thing you have left is a mistrust in government which again, is not a valid reason to believe that they actually did anything wrong.

Also, why should I trust the government?

I never said you should trust the government. I simply pointed out that a mistrust does not logically lead to them being guilty of conspiracy.