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The validity and Current Actions of Israel

ConservativeAmerican
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2/11/2013 7:44:34 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
Main starting questions

Is Israel justified in existing as a sovereign nation?

Is Israel justified in separating the Palestinians from them on the Gaza Strip?

Is Israel justified in a preemptive strike against Iran, if Iran continues aggressive action?

Was Israel justified in the 3 main wars they have been in? (Yom Kippur War, 2006 Lebanon-Israel Conflict, Suez Crisis)

For reasons I will justify later, I believe yes for most of these.
thett3
Posts: 14,360
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2/11/2013 7:49:12 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 2/11/2013 7:44:34 PM, ConservativeAmerican wrote:
Main starting questions

Is Israel justified in existing as a sovereign nation?

Probably not

Is Israel justified in separating the Palestinians from them on the Gaza Strip?

Probably not

Is Israel justified in a preemptive strike against Iran, if Iran continues aggressive action?

Yes


Was Israel justified in the 3 main wars they have been in? (Yom Kippur War, 2006 Lebanon-Israel Conflict, Suez Crisis)

Dont know

For reasons I will justify later, I believe yes for most of these.
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ConservativePolitico
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2/11/2013 7:57:23 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 2/11/2013 7:44:34 PM, ConservativeAmerican wrote:
Main starting questions

Is Israel justified in existing as a sovereign nation?


Yes.

Is Israel justified in separating the Palestinians from them on the Gaza Strip?

Yes.

Is Israel justified in a preemptive strike against Iran, if Iran continues aggressive action?

Yes.
Was Israel justified in the 3 main wars they have been in? (Yom Kippur War, 2006 Lebanon-Israel Conflict, Suez Crisis)

Yes

For reasons I will justify later, I believe yes for most of these.

Say justify one more time. Just do it.
Noumena
Posts: 6,047
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2/11/2013 8:11:07 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 2/11/2013 7:44:34 PM, ConservativeAmerican wrote:
Main starting questions

Is Israel justified in existing as a sovereign nation?

Is anyone?

Is Israel justified in separating the Palestinians from them on the Gaza Strip?

Am I justified in separating you from your home?

Is Israel justified in a preemptive strike against Iran, if Iran continues aggressive action?

Iran hasn't really done much except talk crap so not really and any "aggressive action" it has committed pales in comparison to the level of military action Israel is and has been waging.

Was Israel justified in the 3 main wars they have been in? (Yom Kippur War, 2006 Lebanon-Israel Conflict, Suez Crisis)

The war out of its inception wasn't but I haven't looked into the other ones.

For reasons I will justify later, I believe yes for most of these.

Good for you. I was wondering when you would justify yer username to us.
: At 5/13/2014 7:05:20 PM, Crescendo wrote:
: The difference is that the gay movement is currently pushing their will on Churches, as shown in the link to gay marriage in Denmark. Meanwhile, the Inquisition ended several centuries ago.
Citrakayah
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2/11/2013 8:48:51 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 2/11/2013 7:44:34 PM, ConservativeAmerican wrote:
Is Israel justified in existing as a sovereign nation?

Not particularly, in the sense that the original inhabitants weren't too enthusiastic about the idea. That being said, that is true of most nations, so by those standards the United States isn't justified. In any event, it currently is a sovereign nation.

Is Israel justified in separating the Palestinians from them on the Gaza Strip?

No.

Is Israel justified in a preemptive strike against Iran, if Iran continues aggressive action?

Depends.

Was Israel justified in the 3 main wars they have been in? (Yom Kippur War, 2006 Lebanon-Israel Conflict, Suez Crisis)

Not enough information. Tentative yes.
Liberalpolitico
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2/11/2013 9:05:14 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 2/11/2013 7:57:23 PM, ConservativePolitico wrote:
At 2/11/2013 7:44:34 PM, ConservativeAmerican wrote:
Main starting questions

Is Israel justified in existing as a sovereign nation?


Yes.

No.

Is Israel justified in separating the Palestinians from them on the Gaza Strip?

Yes

No.

Is Israel justified in a preemptive strike against Iran, if Iran continues aggressive action?

Yes.

No.

Was Israel justified in the 3 main wars they have been in? (Yom Kippur War, 2006 Lebanon-Israel Conflict, Suez Crisis)

Yes

No.

For reasons I will justify later, I believe yes for most of these.

Say justify one more time. Just do it.

Justify
airmax1227
Posts: 13,244
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2/11/2013 9:52:31 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 2/11/2013 7:44:34 PM, ConservativeAmerican wrote:
Main starting questions

Is Israel justified in existing as a sovereign nation?

As much as any other nation...

Is Israel justified in separating the Palestinians from them on the Gaza Strip?

Too much nuance to this question to answer with a yes or no...

Is Israel justified in a preemptive strike against Iran, if Iran continues aggressive action?

Depends on what a preemptive strike entails... But generally, assuming its a conventional strike, I'd say no.

Was Israel justified in the 3 main wars they have been in? (Yom Kippur War, 2006 Lebanon-Israel Conflict, Suez Crisis)

I wouldn't consider the '06 Lebanon conflict to be one of Israels 3 main wars... '48 war for independence ranks far higher... so does the 6 day war. But I would say Israel was justified in the conflicts mentioned.

For reasons I will justify later, I believe yes for most of these.
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lewis20
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2/11/2013 10:14:12 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
What aggressive action has Iran been taking? I don't believe they've attacked anyone for centuries, how do they all of the sudden pose a threat?
"If you are a racist I will attack you with the north"- Abraham Lincoln

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MichaelGonzales
Posts: 211
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2/11/2013 10:18:02 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 2/11/2013 10:14:12 PM, lewis20 wrote:
What aggressive action has Iran been taking? I don't believe they've attacked anyone for centuries, how do they all of the sudden pose a threat?

They're expanding nuclear energy! Just look at the Tehran Reactor! How menacing!
airmax1227
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2/11/2013 10:24:45 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 2/11/2013 10:14:12 PM, lewis20 wrote:
What aggressive action has Iran been taking? I don't believe they've attacked anyone for centuries, how do they all of the sudden pose a threat?

Iran supplies weapons to groups the US (and other western nations) consider terrorist organizations. There is also evidence Iran supplied weapons to groups fighting against the US in Iraq.

This doesn't necessarily mean anything beyond the accusation and rhetoric itself, but Iran certainly has taken a side against US interests. Not that this has any inherent "good vs bad" nature to it, but that some imply Iran is just minding its own business while Israel and 'The West' are being mean to it is a pretty ridiculous narrative.

Beyond supplying it's strategic allies, I don't think Iran has taken much aggressive action.... Its wise of Iran to seek a nuclear weapon, and its wise for nations that Iran doesn't like to want that not to happen. Even with that said, I, like many others, don't support any conventional US or Israeli strike on Iran at the moment.
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MichaelGonzales
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2/11/2013 10:28:38 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 2/11/2013 10:24:45 PM, airmax1227 wrote:
At 2/11/2013 10:14:12 PM, lewis20 wrote:
What aggressive action has Iran been taking? I don't believe they've attacked anyone for centuries, how do they all of the sudden pose a threat?

Iran supplies weapons to groups the US (and other western nations) consider terrorist organizations. There is also evidence Iran supplied weapons to groups fighting against the US in Iraq.

Sort of like the US aiding in a coup d'"tat in Iran? For some reason, it's only okay when we do it.
airmax1227
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2/11/2013 10:41:23 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 2/11/2013 10:28:38 PM, MichaelGonzales wrote:
At 2/11/2013 10:24:45 PM, airmax1227 wrote:
At 2/11/2013 10:14:12 PM, lewis20 wrote:
What aggressive action has Iran been taking? I don't believe they've attacked anyone for centuries, how do they all of the sudden pose a threat?

Iran supplies weapons to groups the US (and other western nations) consider terrorist organizations. There is also evidence Iran supplied weapons to groups fighting against the US in Iraq.

Sort of like the US aiding in a coup d'"tat in Iran? For some reason, it's only okay when we do it.

Yeah, that's exactly what its like. Nations do what is in their interests and its clearly unfortunate for all sides.

It's not "okay" when anyone does it. Hopefully cooler heads will prevail in the end with regards to the current circumstances and any further hostilities between the concerned parties wont continue and escalating the situation can be avoided.
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airmax1227
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2/11/2013 10:57:42 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 2/11/2013 10:51:43 PM, FREEDO wrote:
I'm just going to leave this here.
http://2.bp.blogspot.com...

Quality propaganda... with no context whatsoever, it relies on people emotionally reacting to it. Well done.

Want to debate the validity of pointing to casualties as a means of distinguishing who is "correct" in this conflict?

Would you like to do the same with regards to ww2?
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darkkermit
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2/11/2013 11:02:21 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 2/11/2013 10:57:42 PM, airmax1227 wrote:
At 2/11/2013 10:51:43 PM, FREEDO wrote:
I'm just going to leave this here.
http://2.bp.blogspot.com...

Quality propaganda... with no context whatsoever, it relies on people emotionally reacting to it. Well done.

Want to debate the validity of pointing to casualties as a means of distinguishing who is "correct" in this conflict?

Would you like to do the same with regards to ww2?

We were on Stalin's side who committed greater atrocities of genocide then Hitler did. I think trying to state that that the allies were good and the axis were evil really bastardizes history.
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airmax1227
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2/11/2013 11:06:15 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 2/11/2013 11:02:21 PM, darkkermit wrote:
At 2/11/2013 10:57:42 PM, airmax1227 wrote:
At 2/11/2013 10:51:43 PM, FREEDO wrote:
I'm just going to leave this here.
http://2.bp.blogspot.com...

Quality propaganda... with no context whatsoever, it relies on people emotionally reacting to it. Well done.

Want to debate the validity of pointing to casualties as a means of distinguishing who is "correct" in this conflict?

Would you like to do the same with regards to ww2?

We were on Stalin's side who committed greater atrocities of genocide then Hitler did. I think trying to state that that the allies were good and the axis were evil really bastardizes history.

Agreed. I'm simply stating that casualty statistics don't provide any validity to painting one side as in the 'right' or 'wrong', which was clearly Freedo's intent.

I'm also not intending to say either side is "good".
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FREEDO
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2/11/2013 11:08:33 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 2/11/2013 10:57:42 PM, airmax1227 wrote:
At 2/11/2013 10:51:43 PM, FREEDO wrote:
I'm just going to leave this here.
http://2.bp.blogspot.com...

Quality propaganda... with no context whatsoever, it relies on people emotionally reacting to it. Well done.

Want to debate the validity of pointing to casualties as a means of distinguishing who is "correct" in this conflict?

Would you like to do the same with regards to ww2?

The funny thing is that I made no actual argument here and I don't think Palestine is on the "correct" side of the conflict.

But thanks for the red herring.

If you'd like to know why I posted the graph, it's because I cared to discredit Israel because Israel does cause an awful lot of suffering in the world and, oddly enough, I tend to think that's disgusting regardless of most context.

Although, I've never been there and I don't know anyone affected by it, so I also tend to think that my feeling arises more out of a misguided sense of superiority than empathy. But so is everyone else, so I decided to just play along.

Cheerio.
GRAND POOBAH OF DDO

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lewis20
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2/11/2013 11:11:48 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 2/11/2013 11:06:15 PM, airmax1227 wrote:
At 2/11/2013 11:02:21 PM, darkkermit wrote:
At 2/11/2013 10:57:42 PM, airmax1227 wrote:
At 2/11/2013 10:51:43 PM, FREEDO wrote:
I'm just going to leave this here.
http://2.bp.blogspot.com...

Quality propaganda... with no context whatsoever, it relies on people emotionally reacting to it. Well done.

Want to debate the validity of pointing to casualties as a means of distinguishing who is "correct" in this conflict?

Would you like to do the same with regards to ww2?

We were on Stalin's side who committed greater atrocities of genocide then Hitler did. I think trying to state that that the allies were good and the axis were evil really bastardizes history.

Agreed. I'm simply stating that casualty statistics don't provide any validity to painting one side as in the 'right' or 'wrong',

They do point out though that one side is killing a lot more kids than the other. That's of course completely irrelevant to who's in the right.
"If you are a racist I will attack you with the north"- Abraham Lincoln

"Do not wear clothing woven of two kinds of material" - Leviticus 19 19

"War is a racket" - Smedley Butler
airmax1227
Posts: 13,244
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2/11/2013 11:17:28 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 2/11/2013 11:11:48 PM, lewis20 wrote:
At 2/11/2013 11:06:15 PM, airmax1227 wrote:
At 2/11/2013 11:02:21 PM, darkkermit wrote:
At 2/11/2013 10:57:42 PM, airmax1227 wrote:
At 2/11/2013 10:51:43 PM, FREEDO wrote:
I'm just going to leave this here.
http://2.bp.blogspot.com...

Quality propaganda... with no context whatsoever, it relies on people emotionally reacting to it. Well done.

Want to debate the validity of pointing to casualties as a means of distinguishing who is "correct" in this conflict?

Would you like to do the same with regards to ww2?

We were on Stalin's side who committed greater atrocities of genocide then Hitler did. I think trying to state that that the allies were good and the axis were evil really bastardizes history.

Agreed. I'm simply stating that casualty statistics don't provide any validity to painting one side as in the 'right' or 'wrong',

They do point out though that one side is killing a lot more kids than the other. That's of course completely irrelevant to who's in the right.

The stats provide no context. Clearly one side ends up killing more kids than the other, that's all it says.
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FREEDO
Posts: 21,057
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2/11/2013 11:20:52 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 2/11/2013 11:17:28 PM, airmax1227 wrote:
The stats provide no context. Clearly one side ends up killing more kids than the other, that's all it says.

Here's a little context: http://sal.am...

Very similar to what happened in the United States to the Native Americans.
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fnord
malcolmxy
Posts: 2,855
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2/11/2013 11:27:17 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 2/11/2013 10:57:42 PM, airmax1227 wrote:
At 2/11/2013 10:51:43 PM, FREEDO wrote:
I'm just going to leave this here.
http://2.bp.blogspot.com...

Quality propaganda... with no context whatsoever, it relies on people emotionally reacting to it. Well done.

Want to debate the validity of pointing to casualties as a means of distinguishing who is "correct" in this conflict?

Would you like to do the same with regards to ww2?

How about this for the justification?

In Rome, there exists a Jewish quarter, and you know that it's the Jewish quarter because you are still able to see the remnants that once walled these Jews into this part of Rome, with but a single entrance and exit controled by the Romans.

Now, every time a new Roman leader (I believe you now call these people "Pope") is ascended to the throne, the descendants of these same Jews who were walled in like the Israelis have walled in the Palestinians, make some of the most beautiful plates in the world and present them to the new papal pipsqueak as a reminder that they never had to be enemies in he first place.

The Israelis would do well to learn from their brethren here, especially since if there is one group of people in the Middle East who have been historically sh!t on as much as Jews have, it's the Palestinians.
War is over, if you want it.

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airmax1227
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2/11/2013 11:35:34 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 2/11/2013 11:20:52 PM, FREEDO wrote:
At 2/11/2013 11:17:28 PM, airmax1227 wrote:
The stats provide no context. Clearly one side ends up killing more kids than the other, that's all it says.

Here's a little context: http://sal.am...


Lack of context with that map too:

http://cifwatch.com...

http://www.masada2000.org...

Very similar to what happened in the United States to the Native Americans.
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airmax1227
Posts: 13,244
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2/11/2013 11:46:50 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 2/11/2013 11:27:17 PM, malcolmxy wrote:
At 2/11/2013 10:57:42 PM, airmax1227 wrote:
At 2/11/2013 10:51:43 PM, FREEDO wrote:
I'm just going to leave this here.
http://2.bp.blogspot.com...

Quality propaganda... with no context whatsoever, it relies on people emotionally reacting to it. Well done.

Want to debate the validity of pointing to casualties as a means of distinguishing who is "correct" in this conflict?

Would you like to do the same with regards to ww2?

How about this for the justification?

In Rome, there exists a Jewish quarter, and you know that it's the Jewish quarter because you are still able to see the remnants that once walled these Jews into this part of Rome, with but a single entrance and exit controled by the Romans.

Now, every time a new Roman leader (I believe you now call these people "Pope") is ascended to the throne, the descendants of these same Jews who were walled in like the Israelis have walled in the Palestinians, make some of the most beautiful plates in the world and present them to the new papal pipsqueak as a reminder that they never had to be enemies in he first place.

The Israelis would do well to learn from their brethren here, especially since if there is one group of people in the Middle East who have been historically sh!t on as much as Jews have, it's the Palestinians.

I mostly agree with this and with the final sentence. I just don't agree that the root cause of Palestinian suffering is Israel.
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malcolmxy
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2/12/2013 12:24:24 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 2/11/2013 11:46:50 PM, airmax1227 wrote:

I mostly agree with this and with the final sentence. I just don't agree that the root cause of Palestinian suffering is Israel.

Root schmoot. They have the power to stop doing what they are doing (in a careful, phased approach so as to cause the least animosity between people who will be new, tenuous neighbors), but a few extremists in their government who placate a small group of home owners in the illegally expropriated bits of Israel (screw if they should be there in the 1st place or not...they needed something, and someplace, and right or wrong, the country we call Israel is what they got, but the parts they took from the Palestinians after a treaty that they signed which forbid them from doing so are patently illegally obtained).

Me thinks they've taken on a few too many of the traits of The US in how they've chosen to govern. It's a decidedly unJewish way to be, if memory serves.
War is over, if you want it.

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airmax1227
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2/12/2013 12:56:16 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 2/12/2013 12:24:24 AM, malcolmxy wrote:
At 2/11/2013 11:46:50 PM, airmax1227 wrote:

I mostly agree with this and with the final sentence. I just don't agree that the root cause of Palestinian suffering is Israel.

Root schmoot. They have the power to stop doing what they are doing (in a careful, phased approach so as to cause the least animosity between people who will be new, tenuous neighbors), but a few extremists in their government who placate a small group of home owners in the illegally expropriated bits of Israel (screw if they should be there in the 1st place or not...they needed something, and someplace, and right or wrong, the country we call Israel is what they got, but the parts they took from the Palestinians after a treaty that they signed which forbid them from doing so are patently illegally obtained).


Well if we ignore the root cause of Palestinian suffering and the conflict in general I guess we can concede to never resolving anything. Which seem to be the way things are going now.... and there is just too much rhetoric for me to even reply to here. What "are they doing"? There is no evidence to suggest that anything Israel does (through withdrawal or reparations) will be reciprocated or appreciated and resolve anything. They can withdraw from any disputed area and it will make no difference in regards to the greater conflict, at least recent history has shown as much.

Which parts did they take from the Palestinians? Be specific. Which treaty are you referring to (at least indulge me with facts I can reply to), and what specific illegal actions would you like me to reply to. If you want to talk about settlements, fine, we can agree its a terrible policy and is bad all around for Israel (Though reasonable as a military tactic in an unending conflict). But clinging to something that has nothing to do with the root cause of the conflict allows us to ignore the cause of the conflict and avoid solutions forever... So status quo it is then.

Me thinks they've taken on a few too many of the traits of The US in how they've chosen to govern. It's a decidedly unJewish way to be, if memory serves.

Perhaps. Israel isn't required to act "Jewish", what does this even mean?
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malcolmxy
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2/12/2013 1:36:38 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
By walling in the Palestinians, providing only a single entrance and exit, they have choked off the Palestinian economy and created an environment of perpetual poverty and a second class economic population in addition to the Palestinian's second class social status, even if they were free to travel in and out of their lands to execute trade with Israel and beyond.

Now, I understand that they cannot simply "tear down that wall" tomorrow, for fear of the violence by the less forgiving amongst the Palestinians who have suffered in their current existence (and, they see nothing but Israeli oppression, and Israeli oppressors, so root or no root, they're p!ssed at the current generation of Israelis, and rightfully so). I also understand, being the victims of genocides in every century after the 3rd (and perhaps even before), that Jews, of which Israel is chiefly comprised (in citizenship, anyway), must be cautious when facing any sort of violence against them, but they lose the moral high ground for their cautionary tactics of aggression when they are oppressing the people who would be aggressors.

As far as their illegal land seizures, of course I'm talking about the territories. The treaties, if I'm not mistaken (and, I'm not a great authority on the subject, so excuse me if I'm wrong here), would be the Oslo Accords, because both the government of Israel, and the recognized government, soon to supposedly be the legitimately recognized government, of Palestine were both in attendance and both signed this treaty.

Lastly, Israel is a Jewish state. One may obtain automatic citizenship simply by means of proving themselves Jewish, and not simply ethnically Jewish, but religious converts who go through a certain process as well. As such, one might be inclined to believe that as a Jewish state, Israel should try to be a bit more Jewish (and by this I am speaking to the Jewish tradition of hospitality, as demonstrated by the empty chair set for Elijah at each Passover table, as well as the tradition of atonement celebrated each Yom Kippur...maybe celebrated is the wrong term...I was baptized Catholic, so again, please forgive me).

Perhaps this is all too pie in the sky, however. It's a f*cked up situation, and there may be no solution to it. Certainly problems of this nature exist in the world.

Regardless, I mean no offense by anything I have written. I'm simply for peace, or attempting to make peace, whenever and wherever possible.
War is over, if you want it.

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1Devilsadvocate
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2/12/2013 2:06:53 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 2/11/2013 8:11:07 PM, Noumena wrote:
At 2/11/2013 7:44:34 PM, ConservativeAmerican wrote:
Main starting questions


Is Israel justified in separating the Palestinians from them on the Gaza Strip?

Am I justified in separating you from your home?

If he is going to separate you from your home, than yes, you do have a right.
I cannot write in English, because of the treacherous spelling. When I am reading, I only hear it and am unable to remember what the written word looks like."
"Albert Einstein

http://www.twainquotes.com... , http://thewritecorner.wordpress.com... , http://www.onlinecollegecourses.com...
1Devilsadvocate
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2/12/2013 2:10:09 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 2/11/2013 11:02:43 PM, Greyparrot wrote:
At 2/11/2013 10:51:43 PM, FREEDO wrote:
I'm just going to leave this here.
http://2.bp.blogspot.com...

Those darn israelis should stop sheltering those kids.
I cannot write in English, because of the treacherous spelling. When I am reading, I only hear it and am unable to remember what the written word looks like."
"Albert Einstein

http://www.twainquotes.com... , http://thewritecorner.wordpress.com... , http://www.onlinecollegecourses.com...
airmax1227
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2/12/2013 2:33:09 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 2/12/2013 1:36:38 AM, malcolmxy wrote:
By walling in the Palestinians, providing only a single entrance and exit, they have choked off the Palestinian economy and created an environment of perpetual poverty and a second class economic population in addition to the Palestinian's second class social status, even if they were free to travel in and out of their lands to execute trade with Israel and beyond.


I think this oversimplifies things. Where is this single entrance and exit? Is it controlled by Israel? What of the Rafah crossing? Is Egypt equally complicit in walling in the Palestinians or should we ignore this entirely?

The Palestinian situation you have described is unfortunate, and Israel certain bears much of the blame. But with all of the the aid given to the Palestinians (and a UN organization created only for this purpose) and infrastructure already in place in Gaza when Israel withdrew (and promptly destroyed by Palestinians) and the possibility for imports into Gaza (as rockets are clearly able to get in and so are other goods) the lack of a viable economy can party be blamed on Palestinians and their leadership, and not entirely upon Israel. Normalized relations are impossible while many Palestinians and their leadership have continuously declared that this is not desirable.

Furthermore, Palestinians have 2nd class status in states that are not Israel, like Jordan and Lebanon. While this doesn't justify anything Israel does, what role do you think this plays in perpetuating the conflict?

Now, I understand that they cannot simply "tear down that wall" tomorrow, for fear of the violence by the less forgiving amongst the Palestinians who have suffered in their current existence (and, they see nothing but Israeli oppression, and Israeli oppressors, so root or no root, they're p!ssed at the current generation of Israelis, and rightfully so). I also understand, being the victims of genocides in every century after the 3rd (and perhaps even before), that Jews, of which Israel is chiefly comprised (in citizenship, anyway), must be cautious when facing any sort of violence against them, but they lose the moral high ground for their cautionary tactics of aggression when they are oppressing the people who would be aggressors.


I don't disagree with anything you've said above, only that no one has any right to claim 'moral high ground' and that its entirely pointless to do so. We are talking about the very survival of people, and that such a discussion only serves the purpose of making one feel better about which 'side' they've taken. I'm not claiming Israel has any moral high ground, simply that the premise of, 'if Israel does (or doesn't do) xyz, then Israel will be acceptable', is an unfounded position.

As far as their illegal land seizures, of course I'm talking about the territories. The treaties, if I'm not mistaken (and, I'm not a great authority on the subject, so excuse me if I'm wrong here), would be the Oslo Accords, because both the government of Israel, and the recognized government, soon to supposedly be the legitimately recognized government, of Palestine were both in attendance and both signed this treaty.


It's unfortunate, but the Oslo Accords don't amount to much of anything at this point. It's been violated on both sides, and is mostly irrelevant. Pointing to it in some cases to demonize Israel, while ignoring it in others to maintain the same narrative is disingenuous. Even the recent Palestinian statehood bid was a violation of Oslo.

Lastly, Israel is a Jewish state. One may obtain automatic citizenship simply by means of proving themselves Jewish, and not simply ethnically Jewish, but religious converts who go through a certain process as well. As such, one might be inclined to believe that as a Jewish state, Israel should try to be a bit more Jewish (and by this I am speaking to the Jewish tradition of hospitality, as demonstrated by the empty chair set for Elijah at each Passover table, as well as the tradition of atonement celebrated each Yom Kippur...maybe celebrated is the wrong term...I was baptized Catholic, so again, please forgive me).


I think it could be easily argued that Israel is the freest, most hospitable, and the state that allows for the most equality in the region. It has greater rights for women, homosexuals, other religions, and it has Arabs/Muslims in its government. While its not perfect or ideal, its not like its located in Europe (To point to an area of more recent stability) and its cultural surroundings and own cultural reality isn't going to make it look like France, for example. Also it unfortunately has a large group of individuals nearby that have declared their intent to see it destroyed (and this has been the case since before any peripheral issue existed).

It's inhabitants have a survival first mentality in the face of very vocal opponents to its existence. Unfortunately, this leaves it less able to be as hospitable than is ideal. It's certainly unfortunate.

Perhaps this is all too pie in the sky, however. It's a f*cked up situation, and there may be no solution to it. Certainly problems of this nature exist in the world.

Perhaps, though like you, I'd like to find a reasonable solution. I think we just spend too much time looking at peripheral issues. Let's focus for once on its root cause and go from there. Its far too complex to keep looking at every single facet of it and point to that individual aspect as one thing holding everything back from this possible peaceful solution. So what is the genesis of the conflict? That's the discussion I hope people will eventually care to have, and what is unfortunately being ignored. I'm not implying to know this, simply that I know what it isn't.

Regardless, I mean no offense by anything I have written. I'm simply for peace, or attempting to make peace, whenever and wherever possible.

I have taken no offense to anything you have said and I appreciate you engaging me in the conversation. I hope I haven't offended you with anything I have said or that I have been less than diplomatic. My goal is the same as yours, I want peace everywhere... So lets get to the meat of what is actually preventing it.
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