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Freedom

OMGJustinBieber
Posts: 3,484
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2/15/2013 6:20:46 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
What is your idea of freedom? Can infringements on your freedom come from within you, say, in the form of drug addiction or depression? The political implications of this are interesting on issues of self-ownership.

Take a depressed man in a clearly manic state walking over to a policeman with a carton of bleach. In his extreme state, he tells the policeman that he's going to drink it and begins to lift his arm. Is the policeman justified in restraining him?
imabench
Posts: 21,206
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2/15/2013 6:34:44 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 2/15/2013 6:20:46 PM, OMGJustinBieber wrote:
What is your idea of freedom?

Being able to do things that people naturally agree are things people should be able to do.

Can infringements on your freedom come from within you, say, in the form of drug addiction or depression?

I suppose so.

The political implications of this are interesting on issues of self-ownership.

Take a depressed man in a clearly manic state walking over to a policeman with a carton of bleach. In his extreme state, he tells the policeman that he's going to drink it and begins to lift his arm. Is the policeman justified in restraining him?

Standing there and watching the guy kill himself doesnt seem like the moral thing to do here, especially since the guy informed the police officer he was going to do so which to me sounds like hes asking to be restrained. So I would say he is justified in restraining him.
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dylancatlow
Posts: 12,244
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2/15/2013 6:42:27 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 2/15/2013 6:20:46 PM, OMGJustinBieber wrote:
What is your idea of freedom? Can infringements on your freedom come from within you, say, in the form of drug addiction or depression? The political implications of this are interesting on issues of self-ownership.

Take a depressed man in a clearly manic state walking over to a policeman with a carton of bleach. In his extreme state, he tells the policeman that he's going to drink it and begins to lift his arm. Is the policeman justified in restraining him?

My definition of freedom is when one has the ability to do whatever he or she wants as long as it does not infringe other's rights to do the same.
CarefulNow
Posts: 780
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2/15/2013 7:24:09 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
Each is owned not by himself but his genes, whose primary purpose is replication and whose primary enemies are thus one's fellows. That unfortunate fact is destructive enough without libertarianism's moral legitimization of its non-violent manifestations. We adapt to getting what our genes want by wanting more on their behalf and being pained by what used to satisfy. The solution is to exploit the weaknesses in such mechanisms, to take advantage of evolution's imperfection, preferably collectively, wasting nothing on competition.
Greyparrot
Posts: 14,247
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2/15/2013 7:28:32 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
Freedom is having the opportunity to be a complete screwup in life without any restrictions or regulations. (as long as you don't hurt anyone else without paying for it)
Ragnar_Rahl
Posts: 19,297
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2/15/2013 7:28:51 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 2/15/2013 6:20:46 PM, OMGJustinBieber wrote:
What is your idea of freedom? Can infringements on your freedom come from within you, say, in the form of drug addiction or depression?
No.

Take a depressed man in a clearly manic state walking over to a policeman with a carton of bleach. In his extreme state, he tells the policeman that he's going to drink it and begins to lift his arm. Is the policeman justified in restraining him?

No, and since when can policemen make an on-the-spot diagnosis of manic depression? Is this the Soviet Union?
It came to be at its height. It was commanded to command. It was a capital before its first stone was laid. It was a monument to the spirit of man.
Ragnar_Rahl
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2/15/2013 7:29:43 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
especially since the guy informed the police officer he was going to do so which to me sounds like hes asking to be restrained.
If a woman shakes her scantily clad bottom at an officer is she asking to be raped?
It came to be at its height. It was commanded to command. It was a capital before its first stone was laid. It was a monument to the spirit of man.
OMGJustinBieber
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2/15/2013 7:37:21 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
No, and since when can policemen make an on-the-spot diagnosis of manic depression? Is this the Soviet Union?

I don't know, say they were friends and he told the officer.

I knew we would see eye to eye on this.
OMGJustinBieber
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2/15/2013 7:39:49 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
Standing there and watching the guy kill himself doesnt seem like the moral thing to do here, especially since the guy informed the police officer he was going to do so which to me sounds like hes asking to be restrained. So I would say he is justified in restraining him.

I completely agree. So, the libertarian idea of complete self ownership should be modified a little: "You" should not be able to put whatever you want into your body at any given time.
OMGJustinBieber
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2/15/2013 7:42:12 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 2/15/2013 7:28:32 PM, Greyparrot wrote:
Freedom is having the opportunity to be a complete screwup in life without any restrictions or regulations. (as long as you don't hurt anyone else without paying for it)

Answers like this amaze me; how can you look at drug addicted homeless people and they me that they're "free?" Was it truly a conscious decision on their part to be in that state driven by drug cravings? Some of them are driven to prostitution to support their drug habits, but obviously that's just their free will operating.
Greyparrot
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2/15/2013 7:47:40 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 2/15/2013 7:42:12 PM, OMGJustinBieber wrote:
At 2/15/2013 7:28:32 PM, Greyparrot wrote:
Freedom is having the opportunity to be a complete screwup in life without any restrictions or regulations. (as long as you don't hurt anyone else without paying for it)

Answers like this amaze me; how can you look at drug addicted homeless people and they me that they're "free?" Was it truly a conscious decision on their part to be in that state driven by drug cravings? Some of them are driven to prostitution to support their drug habits, but obviously that's just their free will operating.

Would you even have a line you would not cross while being a behavior monitor?
Greyparrot
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2/15/2013 7:50:18 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 2/15/2013 7:42:12 PM, OMGJustinBieber wrote:
At 2/15/2013 7:28:32 PM, Greyparrot wrote:
Freedom is having the opportunity to be a complete screwup in life without any restrictions or regulations. (as long as you don't hurt anyone else without paying for it)

Answers like this amaze me; how can you look at drug addicted homeless people and they me that they're "free?" Was it truly a conscious decision on their part to be in that state driven by drug cravings? Some of them are driven to prostitution to support their drug habits, but obviously that's just their free will operating.

Also, I have been homeless, and I knew people that had been homeless many more years than I have. Freedom to be a screwup is just about the ONLY thing they have despite vigorous interventions.
OMGJustinBieber
Posts: 3,484
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2/15/2013 7:50:44 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 2/15/2013 7:47:40 PM, Greyparrot wrote:
At 2/15/2013 7:42:12 PM, OMGJustinBieber wrote:
At 2/15/2013 7:28:32 PM, Greyparrot wrote:
Freedom is having the opportunity to be a complete screwup in life without any restrictions or regulations. (as long as you don't hurt anyone else without paying for it)

Answers like this amaze me; how can you look at drug addicted homeless people and they me that they're "free?" Was it truly a conscious decision on their part to be in that state driven by drug cravings? Some of them are driven to prostitution to support their drug habits, but obviously that's just their free will operating.

Would you even have a line you would not cross while being a behavior monitor?

Of course, there are things I would interfere with and things I wouldn't. Just because it's difficult to see the line doesn't mean the line doesn't exist.
TheElderScroll
Posts: 643
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2/16/2013 1:19:57 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 2/15/2013 6:20:46 PM, OMGJustinBieber wrote:
What is your idea of freedom? Can infringements on your freedom come from within you, say, in the form of drug addiction or depression? The political implications of this are interesting on issues of self-ownership.
This is an old and tantalizing problem. I have two definitions in minds:
1. Freedom is what the governing body decides. That means: Freedom is what law does not proscribe.
2. A natural right. Right to pursue something desirable. (Without infringing on others' freedom)

Take a depressed man in a clearly manic state walking over to a policeman with a carton of bleach. In his extreme state, he tells the policeman that he's going to drink it and begins to lift his arm. Is the policeman justified in restraining him?
No. Not because it is one's right to drink something toxic, but because the uninvited intervention may lead to some unexpected consequence (lawsuit perhaps or something similar).

But if the policeman is a personal friend of this despondent man, then my answer may change to "Yes".
Ragnar_Rahl
Posts: 19,297
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2/16/2013 1:20:34 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 2/15/2013 7:37:21 PM, OMGJustinBieber wrote:
No, and since when can policemen make an on-the-spot diagnosis of manic depression? Is this the Soviet Union?

I don't know, say they were friends and he told the officer.
Self-diagnosis? OIC, it's hipsterville.


I knew we would see eye to eye on this.
Unfortunately DDO doesn't support the sarcasm font, you need tags.
It came to be at its height. It was commanded to command. It was a capital before its first stone was laid. It was a monument to the spirit of man.
malcolmxy
Posts: 2,855
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2/16/2013 4:50:08 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 2/15/2013 6:20:46 PM, OMGJustinBieber wrote:
What is your idea of freedom?

Telling you to f*ck off if you're an authority figure without fear of reprisal (Supreme Court just ruled on this...the right way for once)

Can infringements on your freedom come from within you, say, in the form of drug addiction or depression? The political implications of this are interesting on issues of self-ownership.

That is the best question I've seen asked in this joint, ever. I can see an argument both ways on this. NICE!


Take a depressed man in a clearly manic state walking over to a policeman with a carton of bleach. In his extreme state, he tells the policeman that he's going to drink it and begins to lift his arm. Is the policeman justified in restraining him?

Yes. Cleaning up the ensuing mess takes more resources than stopping him and placing him under 72 hour surveillance. People not in their right mind need to have their liberties taken away sometimes, though only temporarily (this must be heavily regulated, by independent groups who are not part of the state due to the possibility for abuse). You don't have a right to be crazy if you being crazy puts me at risk or costs an unnecessay amount of public resources.
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FREEDO
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2/16/2013 5:04:57 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
I am your freedom.

Come to me, my children, and partake in the delicate splendors of your liberation.
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wrichcirw
Posts: 11,196
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2/16/2013 11:10:18 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 2/15/2013 7:28:51 PM, Ragnar_Rahl wrote:
At 2/15/2013 6:20:46 PM, OMGJustinBieber wrote:
What is your idea of freedom? Can infringements on your freedom come from within you, say, in the form of drug addiction or depression?
No.


Take a depressed man in a clearly manic state walking over to a policeman with a carton of bleach. In his extreme state, he tells the policeman that he's going to drink it and begins to lift his arm. Is the policeman justified in restraining him?

No, and since when can policemen make an on-the-spot diagnosis of manic depression? Is this the Soviet Union?

A man has clearly stated his intent to harm himself in a fatal manner. The man then acts on this intention. Suicide is against the law. The cop is justified to act.
At 8/9/2013 9:41:24 AM, wrichcirw wrote:
If you are civil with me, I will be civil to you. If you decide to bring unreasonable animosity to bear in a reasonable discussion, then what would you expect other than to get flustered?
Skepsikyma
Posts: 8,280
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2/16/2013 11:13:36 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 2/16/2013 11:10:18 AM, wrichcirw wrote:
A man has clearly stated his intent to harm himself in a fatal manner. The man then acts on this intention. Suicide is against the law. The cop is justified to act.

Does anyone else find the idea of suicide being against the law to be patently absurd? How exactly is one supposed to be punished for this crime?
"The Collectivist experiment is thoroughly suited (in appearance at least) to the Capitalist society which it proposes to replace. It works with the existing machinery of Capitalism, talks and thinks in the existing terms of Capitalism, appeals to just those appetites which Capitalism has aroused, and ridicules as fantastic and unheard-of just those things in society the memory of which Capitalism has killed among men wherever the blight of it has spread."
- Hilaire Belloc -
Kinesis
Posts: 3,667
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2/16/2013 11:39:13 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 2/16/2013 11:13:36 AM, Skepsikyma wrote:
At 2/16/2013 11:10:18 AM, wrichcirw wrote:
A man has clearly stated his intent to harm himself in a fatal manner. The man then acts on this intention. Suicide is against the law. The cop is justified to act.

Does anyone else find the idea of suicide being against the law to be patently absurd? How exactly is one supposed to be punished for this crime?

If what's being punished is attempted suicide, lock them up. BTW individual suicide has been decriminalised in almost all western countries for quite some time. I think the tide is turning on assisted suicide too.
Skepsikyma
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2/16/2013 12:02:54 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 2/16/2013 11:39:13 AM, Kinesis wrote:
At 2/16/2013 11:13:36 AM, Skepsikyma wrote:
At 2/16/2013 11:10:18 AM, wrichcirw wrote:
A man has clearly stated his intent to harm himself in a fatal manner. The man then acts on this intention. Suicide is against the law. The cop is justified to act.

Does anyone else find the idea of suicide being against the law to be patently absurd? How exactly is one supposed to be punished for this crime?

If what's being punished is attempted suicide, lock them up. BTW individual suicide has been decriminalised in almost all western countries for quite some time. I think the tide is turning on assisted suicide too.

Even if someone is locked up, if they honestly want to die then it seems a bit difficult, and absurd, to force them to live. For example, the government could end up force feeding someone under the pretense of protecting them. In the end the person is essentially tortured for the crime of seeking relief from what they consider to be torture. I recall an interesting court case in the US wherein one side argued that it constituted cruel and unusual punishment to force somebody to live against their will for this very reason. And I'm glad that assisted suicide is gaining traction.
"The Collectivist experiment is thoroughly suited (in appearance at least) to the Capitalist society which it proposes to replace. It works with the existing machinery of Capitalism, talks and thinks in the existing terms of Capitalism, appeals to just those appetites which Capitalism has aroused, and ridicules as fantastic and unheard-of just those things in society the memory of which Capitalism has killed among men wherever the blight of it has spread."
- Hilaire Belloc -
malcolmxy
Posts: 2,855
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2/16/2013 5:32:27 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 2/16/2013 11:13:36 AM, Skepsikyma wrote:
At 2/16/2013 11:10:18 AM, wrichcirw wrote:
A man has clearly stated his intent to harm himself in a fatal manner. The man then acts on this intention. Suicide is against the law. The cop is justified to act.

Does anyone else find the idea of suicide being against the law to be patently absurd? How exactly is one supposed to be punished for this crime?

Since most fail - through psychiatric commitment.

It may be absurd, but endorsing it is the more absurd of two absurd options.

No one (I have to imagine, as I know people who have made the attempt) goes to jail for this "crime". It's kinda like masturbation being a sin in Christianity...what else do you do with it?
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malcolmxy
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2/16/2013 5:35:51 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 2/16/2013 12:02:54 PM, Skepsikyma wrote:
At 2/16/2013 11:39:13 AM, Kinesis wrote:
At 2/16/2013 11:13:36 AM, Skepsikyma wrote:
At 2/16/2013 11:10:18 AM, wrichcirw wrote:
A man has clearly stated his intent to harm himself in a fatal manner. The man then acts on this intention. Suicide is against the law. The cop is justified to act.

Does anyone else find the idea of suicide being against the law to be patently absurd? How exactly is one supposed to be punished for this crime?

If what's being punished is attempted suicide, lock them up. BTW individual suicide has been decriminalised in almost all western countries for quite some time. I think the tide is turning on assisted suicide too.

Even if someone is locked up, if they honestly want to die then it seems a bit difficult, and absurd, to force them to live. For example, the government could end up force feeding someone under the pretense of protecting them. In the end the person is essentially tortured for the crime of seeking relief from what they consider to be torture. I recall an interesting court case in the US wherein one side argued that it constituted cruel and unusual punishment to force somebody to live against their will for this very reason. And I'm glad that assisted suicide is gaining traction.

You've never known a schizophrenic, have you?

They don't want to die (the ones which are suicidal...not all are, nor are most violent). They don't know how to live and be the way they are. Hard to blame them...it's f*cked up, but there are many treatments which help them to live productive, happy lives. Are the side effects harsh? Sometimes, but not as harsh as the disease.
War is over, if you want it.

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Skepsikyma
Posts: 8,280
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2/16/2013 6:29:29 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 2/16/2013 5:35:51 PM, malcolmxy wrote:
At 2/16/2013 12:02:54 PM, Skepsikyma wrote:
At 2/16/2013 11:39:13 AM, Kinesis wrote:
At 2/16/2013 11:13:36 AM, Skepsikyma wrote:
At 2/16/2013 11:10:18 AM, wrichcirw wrote:
A man has clearly stated his intent to harm himself in a fatal manner. The man then acts on this intention. Suicide is against the law. The cop is justified to act.

Does anyone else find the idea of suicide being against the law to be patently absurd? How exactly is one supposed to be punished for this crime?

If what's being punished is attempted suicide, lock them up. BTW individual suicide has been decriminalised in almost all western countries for quite some time. I think the tide is turning on assisted suicide too.

Even if someone is locked up, if they honestly want to die then it seems a bit difficult, and absurd, to force them to live. For example, the government could end up force feeding someone under the pretense of protecting them. In the end the person is essentially tortured for the crime of seeking relief from what they consider to be torture. I recall an interesting court case in the US wherein one side argued that it constituted cruel and unusual punishment to force somebody to live against their will for this very reason. And I'm glad that assisted suicide is gaining traction.

You've never known a schizophrenic, have you?

They don't want to die (the ones which are suicidal...not all are, nor are most violent). They don't know how to live and be the way they are. Hard to blame them...it's f*cked up, but there are many treatments which help them to live productive, happy lives. Are the side effects harsh? Sometimes, but not as harsh as the disease.

I'm not denying the usefulness of psychiatric care, just saying that outlawing suicide across the board is a silly idea. I would agree with you wholeheartedly that schizophrenics should be treated.
"The Collectivist experiment is thoroughly suited (in appearance at least) to the Capitalist society which it proposes to replace. It works with the existing machinery of Capitalism, talks and thinks in the existing terms of Capitalism, appeals to just those appetites which Capitalism has aroused, and ridicules as fantastic and unheard-of just those things in society the memory of which Capitalism has killed among men wherever the blight of it has spread."
- Hilaire Belloc -
malcolmxy
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2/16/2013 6:44:06 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 2/16/2013 6:29:29 PM, Skepsikyma wrote:

I'm not denying the usefulness of psychiatric care, just saying that outlawing suicide across the board is a silly idea. I would agree with you wholeheartedly that schizophrenics should be treated.

That's why I said - least absurd of the all-inclusively absurd options available. The penalty is never incarceration, and punishment is certainly not capital.

The illegality goes to the liability for the resources the consume in their attempt, and the collateral damage they cause (so, if they jump a bridge and land on a car, they, or their estate must cover the damage, should they have an estate...what else do you do here?)
War is over, if you want it.

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Skepsikyma
Posts: 8,280
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2/16/2013 7:42:16 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 2/16/2013 6:44:06 PM, malcolmxy wrote:
At 2/16/2013 6:29:29 PM, Skepsikyma wrote:

I'm not denying the usefulness of psychiatric care, just saying that outlawing suicide across the board is a silly idea. I would agree with you wholeheartedly that schizophrenics should be treated.

That's why I said - least absurd of the all-inclusively absurd options available. The penalty is never incarceration, and punishment is certainly not capital.

The illegality goes to the liability for the resources the consume in their attempt, and the collateral damage they cause (so, if they jump a bridge and land on a car, they, or their estate must cover the damage, should they have an estate...what else do you do here?)

So all in all, assisted suicide would solve most of these problems. If only the churchies didn't scream bloody murder every time anyone brought it up. I just started to think of suicide as a black market with negative externalities... this is starting to get exceedingly macabre.
"The Collectivist experiment is thoroughly suited (in appearance at least) to the Capitalist society which it proposes to replace. It works with the existing machinery of Capitalism, talks and thinks in the existing terms of Capitalism, appeals to just those appetites which Capitalism has aroused, and ridicules as fantastic and unheard-of just those things in society the memory of which Capitalism has killed among men wherever the blight of it has spread."
- Hilaire Belloc -
malcolmxy
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2/16/2013 8:19:52 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 2/16/2013 7:42:16 PM, Skepsikyma wrote:
At 2/16/2013 6:44:06 PM, malcolmxy wrote:
At 2/16/2013 6:29:29 PM, Skepsikyma wrote:

I'm not denying the usefulness of psychiatric care, just saying that outlawing suicide across the board is a silly idea. I would agree with you wholeheartedly that schizophrenics should be treated.

That's why I said - least absurd of the all-inclusively absurd options available. The penalty is never incarceration, and punishment is certainly not capital.

The illegality goes to the liability for the resources the consume in their attempt, and the collateral damage they cause (so, if they jump a bridge and land on a car, they, or their estate must cover the damage, should they have an estate...what else do you do here?)

So all in all, assisted suicide would solve most of these problems. If only the churchies didn't scream bloody murder every time anyone brought it up. I just started to think of suicide as a black market with negative externalities... this is starting to get exceedingly macabre.

My only issue with assistance is the possibility of abuse. Old, sick people, of whom would be the greatest consumers of this service, are vulnerable and often don't want to be a burden on their loved ones when they have probably earned the right to be somewhat burdensome.

Dr. Jack was good about the making sure part of this...as long as there are ethical standards which are heavily enforced and constantly reviewed, I have no problem with the right to die.
War is over, if you want it.

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Ragnar_Rahl
Posts: 19,297
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2/17/2013 5:09:49 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
Old, sick people, of whom would be the greatest consumers of this service, are vulnerable and often don't want to be a burden on their loved ones when they have probably earned the right to be somewhat burdensome.

How, by bossing their families around? :P

A man has clearly stated his intent to continue being a Jew. The man then acts on this intention. Jewry is against the law. The nazi is justified to act.

Fix'd something from earlier.
It came to be at its height. It was commanded to command. It was a capital before its first stone was laid. It was a monument to the spirit of man.
malcolmxy
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2/17/2013 5:58:53 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 2/17/2013 5:09:49 AM, Ragnar_Rahl wrote:
Old, sick people, of whom would be the greatest consumers of this service, are vulnerable and often don't want to be a burden on their loved ones when they have probably earned the right to be somewhat burdensome.

How, by bossing their families around? :P

A man has clearly stated his intent to continue being a Jew. The man then acts on this intention. Jewry is against the law. The nazi is justified to act.

Fix'd something from earlier.

feel free to go f*ck yourself next time you feel any corrections are needed...
War is over, if you want it.

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Stephen_Hawkins
Posts: 5,316
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2/17/2013 7:08:29 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 2/15/2013 6:34:44 PM, imabench wrote:
At 2/15/2013 6:20:46 PM, OMGJustinBieber wrote:
What is your idea of freedom?

Being able to do things that people naturally agree are things people should be able to do.

So you cannot be free from social norms? Or, in other words, by being abnormal you are not free?
Give a man a fish, he'll eat for a day. Teach him how to be Gay, he'll positively influence the GDP.

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