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Privatized Prisons

Heineken
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2/17/2013 9:55:11 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
I'm doing a report on Privatized Prisons and in my research, I stumbled across a Corporation called GEO.

Wells-Fargo (a major US banking system) is the primary investor in GEO Private Prisons. Wells Fargo has been sending Lobbyists to Washington to influence immigration Laws, in an attempt to hyper-criminalize illegal immigration.

The result would be an massive surge in the prison population. However, State Prisons don't have the capacity to house the criminals. GEO does.

Check out the location of domestic GEO prisons: http://www.geogroup.com...

The US/Mexican border is stacked.

I thought this was a great topic for DDO. Figured I'd share.
Vidi, vici, veni.
(I saw, I conquered, I came.)
Ore_Ele
Posts: 25,980
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2/17/2013 10:01:18 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 2/17/2013 9:55:11 PM, Heineken wrote:
I'm doing a report on Privatized Prisons and in my research, I stumbled across a Corporation called GEO.

Wells-Fargo (a major US banking system) is the primary investor in GEO Private Prisons. Wells Fargo has been sending Lobbyists to Washington to influence immigration Laws, in an attempt to hyper-criminalize illegal immigration.

The result would be an massive surge in the prison population. However, State Prisons don't have the capacity to house the criminals. GEO does.

Check out the location of domestic GEO prisons: http://www.geogroup.com...

The US/Mexican border is stacked.

I thought this was a great topic for DDO. Figured I'd share.

I'd say the issue is not with private prisons, but with lobbyists steering politicians, rather than the people.
"Wanting Red Rhino Pill to have gender"
ConservativePolitico
Posts: 8,210
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2/18/2013 12:05:31 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
Gives me an interesting idea of a dystopian future where prison companies actively try to frame innocent citizens to get business...

However, how does a prison company make money? Do the inmates pay rent?

I mean honestly... how do they make money? Does the government contract out the prison space?
imabench
Posts: 21,216
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2/18/2013 12:08:23 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 2/18/2013 12:05:31 AM, ConservativePolitico wrote:
Gives me an interesting idea of a dystopian future where prison companies actively try to frame innocent citizens to get business...

I thought the same thing.

However, how does a prison company make money? Do the inmates pay rent?

I also was wondering about that.

I mean honestly... how do they make money? Does the government contract out the prison space?
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YYW
Posts: 36,286
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2/18/2013 12:08:43 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 2/18/2013 12:05:31 AM, ConservativePolitico wrote:
Gives me an interesting idea of a dystopian future where prison companies actively try to frame innocent citizens to get business...

This actually happened in England before slavery came to the United States. People were arrested that they could be sentenced and forced to sell themselves into indentured servitude in the new world.

However, how does a prison company make money? Do the inmates pay rent?

Sh!tloads, largely from government contracts. This is what republicans call market efficiency.

I mean honestly... how do they make money? Does the government contract out the prison space?

Government pays the prison based on various things, but principally on its capacity. Prisons are big business in the deep south, especially. Again, three cheers for fiscal conservatism.

http://thinkprogress.org...
Tsar of DDO
ConservativePolitico
Posts: 8,210
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2/18/2013 12:12:37 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 2/18/2013 12:08:43 AM, YYW wrote:
At 2/18/2013 12:05:31 AM, ConservativePolitico wrote:
Gives me an interesting idea of a dystopian future where prison companies actively try to frame innocent citizens to get business...

This actually happened in England before slavery came to the United States. People were arrested that they could be sentenced and forced to sell themselves into indentured servitude in the new world.

However, how does a prison company make money? Do the inmates pay rent?

Sh!tloads, largely from government contracts. This is what republicans call market efficiency.

I mean honestly... how do they make money? Does the government contract out the prison space?

Government pays the prison based on various things, but principally on its capacity. Prisons are big business in the deep south, especially. Again, three cheers for fiscal conservatism.

http://thinkprogress.org...

When did you get so militantly anti-conservative? We can do without the jabs.

So the money still all comes from the government, it just flows into private pockets instead of state pockets? What's the point then?
YYW
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2/18/2013 12:42:07 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 2/18/2013 12:12:37 AM, ConservativePolitico wrote:
At 2/18/2013 12:08:43 AM, YYW wrote:
At 2/18/2013 12:05:31 AM, ConservativePolitico wrote:
Gives me an interesting idea of a dystopian future where prison companies actively try to frame innocent citizens to get business...

This actually happened in England before slavery came to the United States. People were arrested that they could be sentenced and forced to sell themselves into indentured servitude in the new world.

However, how does a prison company make money? Do the inmates pay rent?

Sh!tloads, largely from government contracts. This is what republicans call market efficiency.

I mean honestly... how do they make money? Does the government contract out the prison space?

Government pays the prison based on various things, but principally on its capacity. Prisons are big business in the deep south, especially. Again, three cheers for fiscal conservatism.

http://thinkprogress.org...

When did you get so militantly anti-conservative? We can do without the jabs.

Ok, fair enough. That remark did jump the gun a bit. I'm not militantly anything or even anti-conservative. I agree with the (Bush era) GOP on, for example, all foreign policy issues -but not domestic ones, though I digress. The problem is the idea that privatized anything is "more efficient" then government and should therefore take the place of government in all those things in which government performs inefficiently. My issue is even more broadly with the idea that more or better prisons is in the interest of the US criminal justice system, or in the interests of American society. The problem is cultural, but that's my view.

So the money still all comes from the government, it just flows into private pockets instead of state pockets? What's the point then?

That depends on the jurisdiction of the prison. Federal prisons receive federal funds and bring both jobs and tax revenue to states, but because the money comes from outside of the state, the state GDP increase is more significant than if the prison were a state prison -which would be funded by state taxes. The point then is that politicians who are influenced by lobbyists champion privatized prisons because they are theoretically more efficient (where "efficient" means that they can incarcerate people on a lower cost per head per day). The object of the penal system, however, should be to have less criminals, than to punish all criminals more 'efficiently'.

However, it is also my view that US prisons are entirely too humanitarian. Russian style labor camps have the salutary benefit of being self-sustainable (in economic terms) while simultaneously facilitating punishment and -to a perhaps lesser degree- rehabilitation. The point being that conditions in prison ought to be SO harsh that people genuinely dread going to jail.

My solution?

YYW's Hypothetical Prison Schedule:
4:00 AM inmates wake up.
4:15 AM inmates eat breakfast.
4:30 AM inmates shower.
5:00 AM inmates report for tedious manufacturing job on assembly lines where they are supervised by guards with automatic rifles who act as shop foreman. No breaks are permitted before lunch.
12:00 PM inmates break for lunch.
12:30 PM inmates return to assembly lines. No breaks between lunch and dinner.
7:00 PM inmates break for dinner.
7:45 PM inmates are inspected for contraband.
8:00 PM inmates have option to attend religious service, vocational training or educational lecture not to last more than 1.5 hrs.
9:30 PM inmates return to cells.
9:45 PM lights out.

If not labor, than a cell totally devoid of light and sound, and one meal per day.

Nothing inhumane, just very rigorous. No time to riot. No time to cause chaos. No energy left at the end of the day to start conflicts. No escape from forced labor. Not even worse than the schedule of child laborers in the Lowell textile mills in Massachusetts before the progressive era.

My problem is that society's interests are not served by the schemes of lobbyists that persuade the politicians of the Deep South. My (radical) solution is above -but this is why I do not write public policy, rofl.
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Heineken
Posts: 1,230
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2/18/2013 4:57:08 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 2/18/2013 12:05:31 AM, ConservativePolitico wrote:
Gives me an interesting idea of a dystopian future where prison companies actively try to frame innocent citizens to get business...

That's essentially what they're doing. By hyper-criminalizing trivial offenses, they are seeking to fill their beds. If you check the GEO website, you'll see that they post specifically how many beds they own. Every one of those beds are paid for by state and Federal tax dollars.

In an annual report, the Private Penal Corporation GEO stated that their "services could be adversely affected by changes in existing criminal or immigration laws, crime rates in jurisdictions in which we operate, the relaxation of criminal or immigration enforcement efforts, leniency in conviction, sentencing or deportation practices, and the decriminalization of certain activities that are currently proscribed by criminal laws or the loosening of immigration laws." (Truthout, 2012)

The report continues to outline the Corporation's worries about "Immigration reform laws which are currently a focus for legislators and politicians at the federal, state and local level also could materially adversely impact us (GEO)."(Truthout, 2012)

The solution? Send Wells-Fargo Lobbyists to Washington to push for tougher immigration laws.
I mean...seriously look at that map. They have 1 prison that's on the Canadian border. The rest are strategicly placed in areas which are "rich" with their target demographic.

Hispanics. By sending Lobbyists to push for hypercriminalization of minor offenses...they're essentially the pharmaceutical company that spreads the flu, so that they can sell more cold medicine.
Targeted criminilization of a Minority social problem.

They also pushed to criminalize homlessness, which caused a huge boom in Sacramento due to their vagrant population. They are getting rich by picking morally ambiguous offenses and imprisoning people for them.

Conservatives need to be careful on this one. I'm very supportive of the Department of Corrections, but not an opportunistic system like this. A for-profit correctional institution is subject to unctrolled corruption....always walking a thin ethical line.

However, how does a prison company make money? Do the inmates pay rent?
No. You do. State and Federal contracts.

I mean honestly... how do they make money? Does the government contract out the prison space?
Yep.
Vidi, vici, veni.
(I saw, I conquered, I came.)
DoubtingDave
Posts: 380
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2/18/2013 8:40:25 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 2/18/2013 12:05:31 AM, ConservativePolitico wrote:
Gives me an interesting idea of a dystopian future where prison companies actively try to frame innocent citizens to get business...

Well, I think there would need to be some regulations. For example, the sole purpose of the prison would be a prison after they have been found guilty by a court of law.


However, how does a prison company make money? Do the inmates pay rent?

Private prisons make money the same way other 'govt. contractors' do. They get a contract from a state or the feds and they run the prison and any income after taxes and expenses is profit.


I mean honestly... how do they make money? Does the government contract out the prison space?

Yes that's exactly what it is.
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ConservativePolitico
Posts: 8,210
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2/18/2013 8:56:12 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 2/18/2013 12:42:07 AM, YYW wrote:
At 2/18/2013 12:12:37 AM, ConservativePolitico wrote:
At 2/18/2013 12:08:43 AM, YYW wrote:
At 2/18/2013 12:05:31 AM, ConservativePolitico wrote:
Gives me an interesting idea of a dystopian future where prison companies actively try to frame innocent citizens to get business...

This actually happened in England before slavery came to the United States. People were arrested that they could be sentenced and forced to sell themselves into indentured servitude in the new world.

However, how does a prison company make money? Do the inmates pay rent?

Sh!tloads, largely from government contracts. This is what republicans call market efficiency.

I mean honestly... how do they make money? Does the government contract out the prison space?

Government pays the prison based on various things, but principally on its capacity. Prisons are big business in the deep south, especially. Again, three cheers for fiscal conservatism.

http://thinkprogress.org...

When did you get so militantly anti-conservative? We can do without the jabs.

Ok, fair enough. That remark did jump the gun a bit. I'm not militantly anything or even anti-conservative. I agree with the (Bush era) GOP on, for example, all foreign policy issues -but not domestic ones, though I digress. The problem is the idea that privatized anything is "more efficient" then government and should therefore take the place of government in all those things in which government performs inefficiently. My issue is even more broadly with the idea that more or better prisons is in the interest of the US criminal justice system, or in the interests of American society. The problem is cultural, but that's my view.

So the money still all comes from the government, it just flows into private pockets instead of state pockets? What's the point then?

That depends on the jurisdiction of the prison. Federal prisons receive federal funds and bring both jobs and tax revenue to states, but because the money comes from outside of the state, the state GDP increase is more significant than if the prison were a state prison -which would be funded by state taxes. The point then is that politicians who are influenced by lobbyists champion privatized prisons because they are theoretically more efficient (where "efficient" means that they can incarcerate people on a lower cost per head per day). The object of the penal system, however, should be to have less criminals, than to punish all criminals more 'efficiently'.

However, it is also my view that US prisons are entirely too humanitarian. Russian style labor camps have the salutary benefit of being self-sustainable (in economic terms) while simultaneously facilitating punishment and -to a perhaps lesser degree- rehabilitation. The point being that conditions in prison ought to be SO harsh that people genuinely dread going to jail.

My solution?

YYW's Hypothetical Prison Schedule:
4:00 AM inmates wake up.
4:15 AM inmates eat breakfast.
4:30 AM inmates shower.
5:00 AM inmates report for tedious manufacturing job on assembly lines where they are supervised by guards with automatic rifles who act as shop foreman. No breaks are permitted before lunch.
12:00 PM inmates break for lunch.
12:30 PM inmates return to assembly lines. No breaks between lunch and dinner.
7:00 PM inmates break for dinner.
7:45 PM inmates are inspected for contraband.
8:00 PM inmates have option to attend religious service, vocational training or educational lecture not to last more than 1.5 hrs.
9:30 PM inmates return to cells.
9:45 PM lights out.

If not labor, than a cell totally devoid of light and sound, and one meal per day.

Nothing inhumane, just very rigorous. No time to riot. No time to cause chaos. No energy left at the end of the day to start conflicts. No escape from forced labor. Not even worse than the schedule of child laborers in the Lowell textile mills in Massachusetts before the progressive era.

My problem is that society's interests are not served by the schemes of lobbyists that persuade the politicians of the Deep South. My (radical) solution is above -but this is why I do not write public policy, rofl.

That's actually a good idea.

If the prison was private, they could use inmates as laborers and produce a product.

*Googles cost of a factory-prison*
YYW
Posts: 36,286
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2/18/2013 11:43:04 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 2/18/2013 8:56:12 AM, ConservativePolitico wrote:
At 2/18/2013 12:42:07 AM, YYW wrote:
At 2/18/2013 12:12:37 AM, ConservativePolitico wrote:
At 2/18/2013 12:08:43 AM, YYW wrote:
At 2/18/2013 12:05:31 AM, ConservativePolitico wrote:
Gives me an interesting idea of a dystopian future where prison companies actively try to frame innocent citizens to get business...

This actually happened in England before slavery came to the United States. People were arrested that they could be sentenced and forced to sell themselves into indentured servitude in the new world.

However, how does a prison company make money? Do the inmates pay rent?

Sh!tloads, largely from government contracts. This is what republicans call market efficiency.

I mean honestly... how do they make money? Does the government contract out the prison space?

Government pays the prison based on various things, but principally on its capacity. Prisons are big business in the deep south, especially. Again, three cheers for fiscal conservatism.

http://thinkprogress.org...

When did you get so militantly anti-conservative? We can do without the jabs.

Ok, fair enough. That remark did jump the gun a bit. I'm not militantly anything or even anti-conservative. I agree with the (Bush era) GOP on, for example, all foreign policy issues -but not domestic ones, though I digress. The problem is the idea that privatized anything is "more efficient" then government and should therefore take the place of government in all those things in which government performs inefficiently. My issue is even more broadly with the idea that more or better prisons is in the interest of the US criminal justice system, or in the interests of American society. The problem is cultural, but that's my view.

So the money still all comes from the government, it just flows into private pockets instead of state pockets? What's the point then?

That depends on the jurisdiction of the prison. Federal prisons receive federal funds and bring both jobs and tax revenue to states, but because the money comes from outside of the state, the state GDP increase is more significant than if the prison were a state prison -which would be funded by state taxes. The point then is that politicians who are influenced by lobbyists champion privatized prisons because they are theoretically more efficient (where "efficient" means that they can incarcerate people on a lower cost per head per day). The object of the penal system, however, should be to have less criminals, than to punish all criminals more 'efficiently'.

However, it is also my view that US prisons are entirely too humanitarian. Russian style labor camps have the salutary benefit of being self-sustainable (in economic terms) while simultaneously facilitating punishment and -to a perhaps lesser degree- rehabilitation. The point being that conditions in prison ought to be SO harsh that people genuinely dread going to jail.

My solution?

YYW's Hypothetical Prison Schedule:
4:00 AM inmates wake up.
4:15 AM inmates eat breakfast.
4:30 AM inmates shower.
5:00 AM inmates report for tedious manufacturing job on assembly lines where they are supervised by guards with automatic rifles who act as shop foreman. No breaks are permitted before lunch.
12:00 PM inmates break for lunch.
12:30 PM inmates return to assembly lines. No breaks between lunch and dinner.
7:00 PM inmates break for dinner.
7:45 PM inmates are inspected for contraband.
8:00 PM inmates have option to attend religious service, vocational training or educational lecture not to last more than 1.5 hrs.
9:30 PM inmates return to cells.
9:45 PM lights out.

If not labor, than a cell totally devoid of light and sound, and one meal per day.

Nothing inhumane, just very rigorous. No time to riot. No time to cause chaos. No energy left at the end of the day to start conflicts. No escape from forced labor. Not even worse than the schedule of child laborers in the Lowell textile mills in Massachusetts before the progressive era.

My problem is that society's interests are not served by the schemes of lobbyists that persuade the politicians of the Deep South. My (radical) solution is above -but this is why I do not write public policy, rofl.

That's actually a good idea.

If the prison was private, they could use inmates as laborers and produce a product.

Prisons can be used to produce manufactured goods whether they are privatized or not. Precisely because of the danger for abuse is the reason they should NOT be privatized. Labor, on the other hand, should not be optional.

So, the only question, then is what to produce?

*Googles cost of a factory-prison*
Tsar of DDO
Heineken
Posts: 1,230
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2/18/2013 11:47:26 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 2/18/2013 11:43:04 AM, YYW wrote:
At 2/18/2013 8:56:12 AM, ConservativePolitico wrote:
At 2/18/2013 12:42:07 AM, YYW wrote:
At 2/18/2013 12:12:37 AM, ConservativePolitico wrote:
At 2/18/2013 12:08:43 AM, YYW wrote:
At 2/18/2013 12:05:31 AM, ConservativePolitico wrote:
Gives me an interesting idea of a dystopian future where prison companies actively try to frame innocent citizens to get business...

This actually happened in England before slavery came to the United States. People were arrested that they could be sentenced and forced to sell themselves into indentured servitude in the new world.

However, how does a prison company make money? Do the inmates pay rent?

Sh!tloads, largely from government contracts. This is what republicans call market efficiency.

I mean honestly... how do they make money? Does the government contract out the prison space?

Government pays the prison based on various things, but principally on its capacity. Prisons are big business in the deep south, especially. Again, three cheers for fiscal conservatism.

http://thinkprogress.org...

When did you get so militantly anti-conservative? We can do without the jabs.

Ok, fair enough. That remark did jump the gun a bit. I'm not militantly anything or even anti-conservative. I agree with the (Bush era) GOP on, for example, all foreign policy issues -but not domestic ones, though I digress. The problem is the idea that privatized anything is "more efficient" then government and should therefore take the place of government in all those things in which government performs inefficiently. My issue is even more broadly with the idea that more or better prisons is in the interest of the US criminal justice system, or in the interests of American society. The problem is cultural, but that's my view.

So the money still all comes from the government, it just flows into private pockets instead of state pockets? What's the point then?

That depends on the jurisdiction of the prison. Federal prisons receive federal funds and bring both jobs and tax revenue to states, but because the money comes from outside of the state, the state GDP increase is more significant than if the prison were a state prison -which would be funded by state taxes. The point then is that politicians who are influenced by lobbyists champion privatized prisons because they are theoretically more efficient (where "efficient" means that they can incarcerate people on a lower cost per head per day). The object of the penal system, however, should be to have less criminals, than to punish all criminals more 'efficiently'.

However, it is also my view that US prisons are entirely too humanitarian. Russian style labor camps have the salutary benefit of being self-sustainable (in economic terms) while simultaneously facilitating punishment and -to a perhaps lesser degree- rehabilitation. The point being that conditions in prison ought to be SO harsh that people genuinely dread going to jail.

My solution?

YYW's Hypothetical Prison Schedule:
4:00 AM inmates wake up.
4:15 AM inmates eat breakfast.
4:30 AM inmates shower.
5:00 AM inmates report for tedious manufacturing job on assembly lines where they are supervised by guards with automatic rifles who act as shop foreman. No breaks are permitted before lunch.
12:00 PM inmates break for lunch.
12:30 PM inmates return to assembly lines. No breaks between lunch and dinner.
7:00 PM inmates break for dinner.
7:45 PM inmates are inspected for contraband.
8:00 PM inmates have option to attend religious service, vocational training or educational lecture not to last more than 1.5 hrs.
9:30 PM inmates return to cells.
9:45 PM lights out.

If not labor, than a cell totally devoid of light and sound, and one meal per day.

Nothing inhumane, just very rigorous. No time to riot. No time to cause chaos. No energy left at the end of the day to start conflicts. No escape from forced labor. Not even worse than the schedule of child laborers in the Lowell textile mills in Massachusetts before the progressive era.

My problem is that society's interests are not served by the schemes of lobbyists that persuade the politicians of the Deep South. My (radical) solution is above -but this is why I do not write public policy, rofl.

That's actually a good idea.

If the prison was private, they could use inmates as laborers and produce a product.

Prisons can be used to produce manufactured goods whether they are privatized or not. Precisely because of the danger for abuse is the reason they should NOT be privatized. Labor, on the other hand, should not be optional.

So, the only question, then is what to produce?

High yield consumables. Such as pillows, toilet paper, garbage bags...etc. Things that have a very low overhead cost, have a constant demand, require very little quality control and are cheap to produce.


*Googles cost of a factory-prison*
Vidi, vici, veni.
(I saw, I conquered, I came.)
YYW
Posts: 36,286
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2/18/2013 6:54:56 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 2/18/2013 11:47:26 AM, Heineken wrote:
At 2/18/2013 11:43:04 AM, YYW wrote:
At 2/18/2013 8:56:12 AM, ConservativePolitico wrote:
At 2/18/2013 12:42:07 AM, YYW wrote:
At 2/18/2013 12:12:37 AM, ConservativePolitico wrote:
At 2/18/2013 12:08:43 AM, YYW wrote:
At 2/18/2013 12:05:31 AM, ConservativePolitico wrote:
Gives me an interesting idea of a dystopian future where prison companies actively try to frame innocent citizens to get business...

This actually happened in England before slavery came to the United States. People were arrested that they could be sentenced and forced to sell themselves into indentured servitude in the new world.

However, how does a prison company make money? Do the inmates pay rent?

Sh!tloads, largely from government contracts. This is what republicans call market efficiency.

I mean honestly... how do they make money? Does the government contract out the prison space?

Government pays the prison based on various things, but principally on its capacity. Prisons are big business in the deep south, especially. Again, three cheers for fiscal conservatism.

http://thinkprogress.org...

When did you get so militantly anti-conservative? We can do without the jabs.

Ok, fair enough. That remark did jump the gun a bit. I'm not militantly anything or even anti-conservative. I agree with the (Bush era) GOP on, for example, all foreign policy issues -but not domestic ones, though I digress. The problem is the idea that privatized anything is "more efficient" then government and should therefore take the place of government in all those things in which government performs inefficiently. My issue is even more broadly with the idea that more or better prisons is in the interest of the US criminal justice system, or in the interests of American society. The problem is cultural, but that's my view.

So the money still all comes from the government, it just flows into private pockets instead of state pockets? What's the point then?

That depends on the jurisdiction of the prison. Federal prisons receive federal funds and bring both jobs and tax revenue to states, but because the money comes from outside of the state, the state GDP increase is more significant than if the prison were a state prison -which would be funded by state taxes. The point then is that politicians who are influenced by lobbyists champion privatized prisons because they are theoretically more efficient (where "efficient" means that they can incarcerate people on a lower cost per head per day). The object of the penal system, however, should be to have less criminals, than to punish all criminals more 'efficiently'.

However, it is also my view that US prisons are entirely too humanitarian. Russian style labor camps have the salutary benefit of being self-sustainable (in economic terms) while simultaneously facilitating punishment and -to a perhaps lesser degree- rehabilitation. The point being that conditions in prison ought to be SO harsh that people genuinely dread going to jail.

My solution?

YYW's Hypothetical Prison Schedule:
4:00 AM inmates wake up.
4:15 AM inmates eat breakfast.
4:30 AM inmates shower.
5:00 AM inmates report for tedious manufacturing job on assembly lines where they are supervised by guards with automatic rifles who act as shop foreman. No breaks are permitted before lunch.
12:00 PM inmates break for lunch.
12:30 PM inmates return to assembly lines. No breaks between lunch and dinner.
7:00 PM inmates break for dinner.
7:45 PM inmates are inspected for contraband.
8:00 PM inmates have option to attend religious service, vocational training or educational lecture not to last more than 1.5 hrs.
9:30 PM inmates return to cells.
9:45 PM lights out.

If not labor, than a cell totally devoid of light and sound, and one meal per day.

Nothing inhumane, just very rigorous. No time to riot. No time to cause chaos. No energy left at the end of the day to start conflicts. No escape from forced labor. Not even worse than the schedule of child laborers in the Lowell textile mills in Massachusetts before the progressive era.

My problem is that society's interests are not served by the schemes of lobbyists that persuade the politicians of the Deep South. My (radical) solution is above -but this is why I do not write public policy, rofl.

That's actually a good idea.

If the prison was private, they could use inmates as laborers and produce a product.

Prisons can be used to produce manufactured goods whether they are privatized or not. Precisely because of the danger for abuse is the reason they should NOT be privatized. Labor, on the other hand, should not be optional.

So, the only question, then is what to produce?

High yield consumables. Such as pillows, toilet paper, garbage bags...etc. Things that have a very low overhead cost, have a constant demand, require very little quality control and are cheap to produce.

Sounds good! I think it might be good to, where possible, produce foodstuffs too. Corn, soybeans, cabbage, chickens, wheat and various other grains, etc.




*Googles cost of a factory-prison*

I never thought the day would come that we were in agreement about something...

The only thing I would add, though, is that prisoners should receive a degree of compensation for their labor (minimum wage, minus the cost of their imprisonment) so that when they get out of prison, they have the economic means to resume their lives and productively contribute to society. The amount could be distributed as a monthly stipend or be given in a lump sum (not sure which would be better), for example, a lump sum might be the security deposit on an apartment -but the stipend could mean better management. Of course, there would be taxes taken out of their pay too.

The real benefit of this, I think, would be to actually facilitate "correction." Prison would be both "correction" and "rehabilitation" and there wouldn't be a resume gap.

This of course would vary depending on if a prisoner was trained to do something, like file taxes for example. But the penal system is completely distraught in the United States. There are too many racial minorities, longer sentences for racial minorities, and the poor (regardless of their race) get shafted with incompetent public defenders. The concept of the "right to an attorney" in the US is, though a nice thought, a joke where the "attorney" attended a bottom tier law school and graduated with a C average. This is, in my opinion, the greatest civil rights crisis that the US faces today. But that's only my view.
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lewis20
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2/18/2013 7:37:33 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
Privatized prisons would have a good reason to lobby against drug legalization too wouldn't they? Stiffer penalties for any and all crime, right?
"If you are a racist I will attack you with the north"- Abraham Lincoln

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lewis20
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2/18/2013 7:44:08 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
But you're right, privatization of prisons in the country with the highest incarceration rate is probably a lucrative business.
As for cost effectiveness, I'm sure that state run prisons aren't as efficient as private prisons so when they contract out their incarceration the private firms gets to pocket the difference.
Fiscally I'd say it makes sense, but in the big govt. cronyism that is the USA I'd say its a terrible idea.
Probably easy to lobby because if you oppose stricter penalties for any crime they paint you as pro-crime.
"If you are a racist I will attack you with the north"- Abraham Lincoln

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Ore_Ele
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2/18/2013 7:48:35 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 2/18/2013 12:05:31 AM, ConservativePolitico wrote:
Gives me an interesting idea of a dystopian future where prison companies actively try to frame innocent citizens to get business...

However, how does a prison company make money? Do the inmates pay rent?

I mean honestly... how do they make money? Does the government contract out the prison space?

They probably see that the state pays $X per inmate and offer to do it at $X-C.
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YYW
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2/18/2013 7:57:41 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 2/18/2013 7:37:33 PM, lewis20 wrote:
Privatized prisons would have a good reason to lobby against drug legalization too wouldn't they? Stiffer penalties for any and all crime, right?

Not necessarily "stiffer," but "better."

And regarding drug legalization, if the object is to put more people in prison, yes. No good criminal justice system should be purposed to imprison more people. The forced labor is both a way of ensuring that potential laboring not be wasted, and that prisoners make a social contribution.
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lewis20
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2/18/2013 8:04:54 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 2/18/2013 7:57:41 PM, YYW wrote:
At 2/18/2013 7:37:33 PM, lewis20 wrote:
Privatized prisons would have a good reason to lobby against drug legalization too wouldn't they? Stiffer penalties for any and all crime, right?

Not necessarily "stiffer," but "better."

And regarding drug legalization, if the object is to put more people in prison, yes. No good criminal justice system should be purposed to imprison more people. The forced labor is both a way of ensuring that potential laboring not be wasted, and that prisoners make a social contribution.

I'm talking about from the prospective of private prison firms. They'd have a field day if we had forced labor camps replace prisons. Slave labor camp need more people? 'encourage' law makers to pass stiffer penalties and prosecutes to prosecute to the fullest extent of the law.
"If you are a racist I will attack you with the north"- Abraham Lincoln

"Do not wear clothing woven of two kinds of material" - Leviticus 19 19

"War is a racket" - Smedley Butler
lewis20
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2/18/2013 8:07:03 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
Anyone know if the current system rewards prisons who don't churn out repeat offenders? I doubt it does.
"If you are a racist I will attack you with the north"- Abraham Lincoln

"Do not wear clothing woven of two kinds of material" - Leviticus 19 19

"War is a racket" - Smedley Butler
Ore_Ele
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2/18/2013 8:09:32 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 2/18/2013 8:04:54 PM, lewis20 wrote:
At 2/18/2013 7:57:41 PM, YYW wrote:
At 2/18/2013 7:37:33 PM, lewis20 wrote:
Privatized prisons would have a good reason to lobby against drug legalization too wouldn't they? Stiffer penalties for any and all crime, right?

Not necessarily "stiffer," but "better."

And regarding drug legalization, if the object is to put more people in prison, yes. No good criminal justice system should be purposed to imprison more people. The forced labor is both a way of ensuring that potential laboring not be wasted, and that prisoners make a social contribution.

I'm talking about from the prospective of private prison firms. They'd have a field day if we had forced labor camps replace prisons. Slave labor camp need more people? 'encourage' law makers to pass stiffer penalties and prosecutes to prosecute to the fullest extent of the law.

That would sadly be a potential risk. However, it is vital for the success of any prison (if we assume that their goal is to make criminals 1) pay for their crimes and 2) reach a state where they will not likely re-commit a crime) to make the most of prisoner's time in prison, which includes working (since it will technically count a work experience, 8 years doing job X in prison is better than 8 years trying to not drop the soap) and helping them reconnect to society.
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lewis20
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2/18/2013 8:17:43 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 2/18/2013 8:09:32 PM, Ore_Ele wrote:
At 2/18/2013 8:04:54 PM, lewis20 wrote:
At 2/18/2013 7:57:41 PM, YYW wrote:
At 2/18/2013 7:37:33 PM, lewis20 wrote:
Privatized prisons would have a good reason to lobby against drug legalization too wouldn't they? Stiffer penalties for any and all crime, right?

Not necessarily "stiffer," but "better."

And regarding drug legalization, if the object is to put more people in prison, yes. No good criminal justice system should be purposed to imprison more people. The forced labor is both a way of ensuring that potential laboring not be wasted, and that prisoners make a social contribution.

I'm talking about from the prospective of private prison firms. They'd have a field day if we had forced labor camps replace prisons. Slave labor camp need more people? 'encourage' law makers to pass stiffer penalties and prosecutes to prosecute to the fullest extent of the law.

That would sadly be a potential risk. However, it is vital for the success of any prison (if we assume that their goal is to make criminals 1) pay for their crimes and 2) reach a state where they will not likely re-commit a crime) to make the most of prisoner's time in prison, which includes working (since it will technically count a work experience, 8 years doing job X in prison is better than 8 years trying to not drop the soap) and helping them reconnect to society.

Making license plates isn't work experience, nor will it somehow rehabilitate them.
The only argument is that they won't be a burden to the tax payer.
"If you are a racist I will attack you with the north"- Abraham Lincoln

"Do not wear clothing woven of two kinds of material" - Leviticus 19 19

"War is a racket" - Smedley Butler
Ore_Ele
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2/18/2013 8:32:45 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 2/18/2013 8:17:43 PM, lewis20 wrote:
At 2/18/2013 8:09:32 PM, Ore_Ele wrote:
At 2/18/2013 8:04:54 PM, lewis20 wrote:
At 2/18/2013 7:57:41 PM, YYW wrote:
At 2/18/2013 7:37:33 PM, lewis20 wrote:
Privatized prisons would have a good reason to lobby against drug legalization too wouldn't they? Stiffer penalties for any and all crime, right?

Not necessarily "stiffer," but "better."

And regarding drug legalization, if the object is to put more people in prison, yes. No good criminal justice system should be purposed to imprison more people. The forced labor is both a way of ensuring that potential laboring not be wasted, and that prisoners make a social contribution.

I'm talking about from the prospective of private prison firms. They'd have a field day if we had forced labor camps replace prisons. Slave labor camp need more people? 'encourage' law makers to pass stiffer penalties and prosecutes to prosecute to the fullest extent of the law.

That would sadly be a potential risk. However, it is vital for the success of any prison (if we assume that their goal is to make criminals 1) pay for their crimes and 2) reach a state where they will not likely re-commit a crime) to make the most of prisoner's time in prison, which includes working (since it will technically count a work experience, 8 years doing job X in prison is better than 8 years trying to not drop the soap) and helping them reconnect to society.

Making license plates isn't work experience, nor will it somehow rehabilitate them.
The only argument is that they won't be a burden to the tax payer.

1) Making license plates is obviously not the only option, and it actually is experience on a production line, of which many companies would value, including the company I work for (as would most production companies).

2) I also said "working and rehab" to establish that they may not be the same thing and two different things will need to be done. It is unlikely that they would be able to completely work off their burden to the tax payer, and so taking precautions to prevent (or at least limit) them from re-offending and going back to prison is needed to reduce the expense to the tax payer.
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Ore_Ele
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2/18/2013 8:33:36 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 2/18/2013 8:07:03 PM, lewis20 wrote:
Anyone know if the current system rewards prisons who don't churn out repeat offenders? I doubt it does.

Probably not. I definitely should.
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BigRat
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2/20/2013 12:03:47 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
Why do "privatized prisons" want to put more people behind bars?

Well, if they do, there must be some incentive to do this. Perhaps they are measured by how many prisoners they house. Or, perhaps, they receive more state funding per prisoner they have.

Regardless, this is not an example of privatization gone wrong but a classic case of how incentives matter.

PS: "Privatization" should not be synonymous with "Contracting Out". The two are related but not the same thing.
Wallstreetatheist
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2/20/2013 12:28:45 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
I love how these "private" prisons are created as legal entities through the government's monocentric coercive law, funded by the government's Department of Justice, and filled to capacity via the government's inhuman drug laws, immigration laws, etc. Perhaps they aren't so "private," now are they? Fuckin' corporatism.

Typical American: "We need to regulate these prisons, so that the corruption pervades even deeper into every crevice of the US!"
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darkkermit
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2/20/2013 12:51:55 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 2/18/2013 8:04:54 PM, lewis20 wrote:
At 2/18/2013 7:57:41 PM, YYW wrote:
At 2/18/2013 7:37:33 PM, lewis20 wrote:
Privatized prisons would have a good reason to lobby against drug legalization too wouldn't they? Stiffer penalties for any and all crime, right?

Not necessarily "stiffer," but "better."

And regarding drug legalization, if the object is to put more people in prison, yes. No good criminal justice system should be purposed to imprison more people. The forced labor is both a way of ensuring that potential laboring not be wasted, and that prisoners make a social contribution.

I'm talking about from the prospective of private prison firms. They'd have a field day if we had forced labor camps replace prisons. Slave labor camp need more people? 'encourage' law makers to pass stiffer penalties and prosecutes to prosecute to the fullest extent of the law.

Increasing demand isn't the best strategy for maximizing long-run profits since other competitors can enter the market. Also, if a company has to increase the quantity of goods/services it provides it also means it has to increase expenditures. Strategy would only be effective if production costs are low compared to actual prices and there are barriers to entry into the market.
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YYW
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2/20/2013 1:15:06 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 2/20/2013 12:51:55 AM, darkkermit wrote:
At 2/18/2013 8:04:54 PM, lewis20 wrote:
At 2/18/2013 7:57:41 PM, YYW wrote:
At 2/18/2013 7:37:33 PM, lewis20 wrote:
Privatized prisons would have a good reason to lobby against drug legalization too wouldn't they? Stiffer penalties for any and all crime, right?

Not necessarily "stiffer," but "better."

And regarding drug legalization, if the object is to put more people in prison, yes. No good criminal justice system should be purposed to imprison more people. The forced labor is both a way of ensuring that potential laboring not be wasted, and that prisoners make a social contribution.

I'm talking about from the prospective of private prison firms. They'd have a field day if we had forced labor camps replace prisons. Slave labor camp need more people? 'encourage' law makers to pass stiffer penalties and prosecutes to prosecute to the fullest extent of the law.

Increasing demand isn't the best strategy for maximizing long-run profits since other competitors can enter the market. Also, if a company has to increase the quantity of goods/services it provides it also means it has to increase expenditures. Strategy would only be effective if production costs are low compared to actual prices and there are barriers to entry into the market.

If it were me, I would produce car tires with prison labor and CFL lightbulbs, dump them in China and see how they like a dose of reciprocity -but again, that's me.
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The_Chaos_Heart
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2/20/2013 4:42:12 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
Privatized prisons are a disgrace. People are making money off of locking people up. The more people they lock up, and the longer they have them locked up, the more money they get. This is why he war on drugs has dragged on for so long; you think private prisons are going to give up such an easy and plentiful cash flow so easily?

Privatized prisons should be abolished. People should not be making profit off of getting citizens in jail. If there's one thing Capitalism is good at, it's maximizing productivity, by increasing output, so as to gain the most amount of profit possible. What do you think happens when you apply such a system to prisons? It begins to maximize productivity, as expected. Or in other words, the number of inmates...
lewis20
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2/20/2013 9:50:39 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 2/20/2013 12:51:55 AM, darkkermit wrote:
At 2/18/2013 8:04:54 PM, lewis20 wrote:
At 2/18/2013 7:57:41 PM, YYW wrote:
At 2/18/2013 7:37:33 PM, lewis20 wrote:
Privatized prisons would have a good reason to lobby against drug legalization too wouldn't they? Stiffer penalties for any and all crime, right?

Not necessarily "stiffer," but "better."

And regarding drug legalization, if the object is to put more people in prison, yes. No good criminal justice system should be purposed to imprison more people. The forced labor is both a way of ensuring that potential laboring not be wasted, and that prisoners make a social contribution.

I'm talking about from the prospective of private prison firms. They'd have a field day if we had forced labor camps replace prisons. Slave labor camp need more people? 'encourage' law makers to pass stiffer penalties and prosecutes to prosecute to the fullest extent of the law.

Increasing demand isn't the best strategy for maximizing long-run profits since other competitors can enter the market. Also, if a company has to increase the quantity of goods/services it provides it also means it has to increase expenditures. Strategy would only be effective if production costs are low compared to actual prices and there are barriers to entry into the market.

I don't think forced labor prisons fit anywhere in classic economic models.
"If you are a racist I will attack you with the north"- Abraham Lincoln

"Do not wear clothing woven of two kinds of material" - Leviticus 19 19

"War is a racket" - Smedley Butler
darkkermit
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2/20/2013 10:59:29 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 2/20/2013 9:50:39 AM, lewis20 wrote:
At 2/20/2013 12:51:55 AM, darkkermit wrote:
At 2/18/2013 8:04:54 PM, lewis20 wrote:
At 2/18/2013 7:57:41 PM, YYW wrote:
At 2/18/2013 7:37:33 PM, lewis20 wrote:
Privatized prisons would have a good reason to lobby against drug legalization too wouldn't they? Stiffer penalties for any and all crime, right?

Not necessarily "stiffer," but "better."

And regarding drug legalization, if the object is to put more people in prison, yes. No good criminal justice system should be purposed to imprison more people. The forced labor is both a way of ensuring that potential laboring not be wasted, and that prisoners make a social contribution.

I'm talking about from the prospective of private prison firms. They'd have a field day if we had forced labor camps replace prisons. Slave labor camp need more people? 'encourage' law makers to pass stiffer penalties and prosecutes to prosecute to the fullest extent of the law.

Increasing demand isn't the best strategy for maximizing long-run profits since other competitors can enter the market. Also, if a company has to increase the quantity of goods/services it provides it also means it has to increase expenditures. Strategy would only be effective if production costs are low compared to actual prices and there are barriers to entry into the market.

I don't think forced labor prisons fit anywhere in classic economic models.

of course it does, although forced labor would put the place at a huge competitive advantage over corporations that have to hire workers.
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