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Are conservatives the new progressives?

dylancatlow
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2/18/2013 12:34:22 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
Collectivism and progressive ideas seems to now be the norm in much of the world. I'd argue conservatives are now the progressives.
thett3
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2/18/2013 12:36:07 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
How are conservatives progressives?
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: At 11/12/2016 11:49:40 PM, Raisor wrote:
: thett was right
dylancatlow
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2/18/2013 12:36:37 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 2/18/2013 12:36:07 PM, thett3 wrote:
How are conservatives progressives?

Because progressives support economic, political, and social reform. It is relative to the culture.
dylancatlow
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2/18/2013 12:37:43 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
Essentially, now that the 'old progressives' largely got their way, that is now the norm. Anyone who supports changing it back is a progressive.
thett3
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2/18/2013 12:41:20 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 2/18/2013 12:37:43 PM, dylancatlow wrote:
Essentially, now that the 'old progressives' largely got their way, that is now the norm. Anyone who supports changing it back is a progressive.

Oh I see what you're saying. Well, this is hardly new depending upon your definition of "conservative" (which also seems to change with the times) we've had big government for ages
DDO Vice President

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#UnbanTheMadman

#BetOnThett

"Don't quote me, ever." -Max

"My name is max. I'm not a big fan of slacks"- Max rapping

"Walmart should have the opportunity to bribe a politician to it's agenda" -Max

"Thett, you're really good at convincing people you're a decent person"-tulle

"You fit the character of Regina George quite nicely"- Sam

: At 11/12/2016 11:49:40 PM, Raisor wrote:
: thett was right
dylancatlow
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2/18/2013 12:42:14 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 2/18/2013 12:41:20 PM, thett3 wrote:
At 2/18/2013 12:37:43 PM, dylancatlow wrote:
Essentially, now that the 'old progressives' largely got their way, that is now the norm. Anyone who supports changing it back is a progressive.

Oh I see what you're saying. Well, this is hardly new depending upon your definition of "conservative" (which also seems to change with the times) we've had big government for ages

Not in the United States.
dylancatlow
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2/18/2013 12:43:03 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 2/18/2013 12:42:14 PM, dylancatlow wrote:
At 2/18/2013 12:41:20 PM, thett3 wrote:
At 2/18/2013 12:37:43 PM, dylancatlow wrote:
Essentially, now that the 'old progressives' largely got their way, that is now the norm. Anyone who supports changing it back is a progressive.

Oh I see what you're saying. Well, this is hardly new depending upon your definition of "conservative" (which also seems to change with the times) we've had big government for ages

Not in the United States.

Sorry, I mean we've HAD progressive economic ideas for a while. But it didn't start out that way.
Heineken
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2/18/2013 1:18:22 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 2/18/2013 12:34:22 PM, dylancatlow wrote:
Collectivism and progressive ideas seems to now be the norm in much of the world. I'd argue conservatives are now the progressives.

Conservatives have always been progressive.
History has a short memory. The Republican party allowed a few bad apples to overshadow an entire legacy of progressive ideology.

There is no radical break in the Republicans" civil-rights history: From abolition to Reconstruction to the anti-lynching laws, from the Fourteenth and Fifteenth Amendments to the Civil Rights Act of 1875 to the Civil Rights Acts of 1957, 1960, and 1964, there exists a line that is by no means perfectly straight or unwavering but that nonetheless connects the politics of Lincoln with those of Dwight D. Eisenhower. And from slavery and secession to remorseless opposition to everything from Reconstruction to the anti-lynching laws, the Fourteenth and Fifteenth Amendments, the Civil Rights Act of 1875, and the Civil Rights Acts of 1957 and 1960, there exists a similarly identifiable line connecting John Calhoun and Lyndon Baines Johnson. Supporting civil-rights reform was not a radical turnaround for congressional Republicans in 1964, but it was a radical turnaround for Johnson and the Democrats.

http://www.nationalreview.com...
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Greyparrot
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2/18/2013 1:21:39 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 2/18/2013 12:36:37 PM, dylancatlow wrote:
At 2/18/2013 12:36:07 PM, thett3 wrote:
How are conservatives progressives?

Because progressives support economic, political, and social reform. It is relative to the culture.

You are asuming the GOP has actual agendas for reducing the size of government.
Heineken
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2/18/2013 1:22:34 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
Lincoln was a moderate Republican, as was MLK. (I absolutely loathe the Liberal claim on MLK. He was a Baptist Preacher from Atlanta.)
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Heineken
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2/18/2013 1:23:27 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 2/18/2013 1:21:39 PM, Greyparrot wrote:
At 2/18/2013 12:36:37 PM, dylancatlow wrote:
At 2/18/2013 12:36:07 PM, thett3 wrote:
How are conservatives progressives?

Because progressives support economic, political, and social reform. It is relative to the culture.

You are asuming the GOP has actual agendas for reducing the size of government.

Uhm....yea. I know I do. I vote for government reduction when it's sensible. Especially for entitlement reform.
Vidi, vici, veni.
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royalpaladin
Posts: 22,357
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2/19/2013 6:19:02 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 2/18/2013 1:18:22 PM, Heineken wrote:
At 2/18/2013 12:34:22 PM, dylancatlow wrote:
Collectivism and progressive ideas seems to now be the norm in much of the world. I'd argue conservatives are now the progressives.

Conservatives have always been progressive.
History has a short memory. The Republican party allowed a few bad apples to overshadow an entire legacy of progressive ideology.

There is no radical break in the Republicans" civil-rights history: From abolition to Reconstruction to the anti-lynching laws, from the Fourteenth and Fifteenth Amendments to the Civil Rights Act of 1875 to the Civil Rights Acts of 1957, 1960, and 1964, there exists a line that is by no means perfectly straight or unwavering but that nonetheless connects the politics of Lincoln with those of Dwight D. Eisenhower. And from slavery and secession to remorseless opposition to everything from Reconstruction to the anti-lynching laws, the Fourteenth and Fifteenth Amendments, the Civil Rights Act of 1875, and the Civil Rights Acts of 1957 and 1960, there exists a similarly identifiable line connecting John Calhoun and Lyndon Baines Johnson. Supporting civil-rights reform was not a radical turnaround for congressional Republicans in 1964, but it was a radical turnaround for Johnson and the Democrats.

http://www.nationalreview.com...

Republicans have not always been conservative . . . You are equating ideology with party.
malcolmxy
Posts: 2,855
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2/19/2013 6:39:58 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 2/18/2013 12:37:43 PM, dylancatlow wrote:
Essentially, now that the 'old progressives' largely got their way, that is now the norm. Anyone who supports changing it back is a progressive.

Pro-gress (verb) - Move forward or onward in space or time.

So, what you're saying is that by moving backward in time, that just means you're progressing the opposite direction and therefore you're progressive.

My God, man...that is almost retarded enough to work.

Quick, go to your car and jack up the back wheels (front wheels if it's front wheel drive...I haven't figured out AWD or 4WD yet, so you guys chill out for a sec), put the thing in reverse and floor that bad boy When you get to around 82 or 83 MPH, give me a shout...something cool is gonna happen but you need to be prepared for it.
War is over, if you want it.

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OberHerr
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2/19/2013 9:14:41 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 2/19/2013 6:39:58 AM, malcolmxy wrote:
At 2/18/2013 12:37:43 PM, dylancatlow wrote:
Essentially, now that the 'old progressives' largely got their way, that is now the norm. Anyone who supports changing it back is a progressive.

Pro-gress (verb) - Move forward or onward in space or time.

So, what you're saying is that by moving backward in time, that just means you're progressing the opposite direction and therefore you're progressive.

My God, man...that is almost retarded enough to work.

Quick, go to your car and jack up the back wheels (front wheels if it's front wheel drive...I haven't figured out AWD or 4WD yet, so you guys chill out for a sec), put the thing in reverse and floor that bad boy When you get to around 82 or 83 MPH, give me a shout...something cool is gonna happen but you need to be prepared for it.



Someone doesn't understand that merely because something is called something, does not make it true.

Hey, using your logic if I make a party called the "Always-Right Party", they must always be right, right?
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GeoLaureate8
Posts: 12,252
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2/19/2013 9:45:45 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
Progressive = Progress past the Constitution

Conservative = Conserve the Constitution
"We must raise the standard of the Old, free, decentralized, and strictly limited Republic."
-- Murray Rothbard

"The worst thing that can happen to a good cause is, not to be skillfully attacked, but to be ineptly defended."
-- Frederic Bastiat
wrichcirw
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2/19/2013 9:56:46 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 2/18/2013 12:36:37 PM, dylancatlow wrote:
At 2/18/2013 12:36:07 PM, thett3 wrote:
How are conservatives progressives?

Because progressives support economic, political, and social reform. It is relative to the culture.

I'd replace the word "reform" with "equality". Then you'd realize why monikers like "socialist" apply to the liberal left, and why conservatives, with their beliefs that you earn your keep, will almost invariably never be labeled such.

Conservatives today are not pushing for economic equality. They may want "more equal" treatment in the tax code, but they certainly are not arguing for equal wages, or equal amounts of property for each person. A progressive would argue more in those directions.
At 8/9/2013 9:41:24 AM, wrichcirw wrote:
If you are civil with me, I will be civil to you. If you decide to bring unreasonable animosity to bear in a reasonable discussion, then what would you expect other than to get flustered?
malcolmxy
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2/19/2013 10:10:25 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 2/19/2013 9:45:45 AM, GeoLaureate8 wrote:
Progressive = Progress past the Constitution

Conservative = Conserve the Constitution

Progressives want to change something.

Conservatives (and, this is most people) are afraid of change, and so they fight to block the change.

Thomas Jefferson and John Adams despised one another and disagreed on everything EXCEPT this one idea - Constant Revolution. The idea that no generation has the right to govern any other generation.

As long as there are young people, there will be a progressive movement, and as long as their are old people, there will be a conservative one.

The good thing about old people - their old ideas die with them.
War is over, if you want it.

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GeoLaureate8
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2/19/2013 10:23:08 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 2/19/2013 10:10:25 AM, malcolmxy wrote:
At 2/19/2013 9:45:45 AM, GeoLaureate8 wrote:
Progressive = Progress past the Constitution

Conservative = Conserve the Constitution

Progressives want to change something.

They like to steal wealth, tell people what to do, and be everyone's nanny. No, you can't have that light bulb, you have to buy fluorescent light bulb with Mercury in it. No, you can't build the Keystone Pipeline even though it's overall better for the environment, no we want to force higher gas prices with an environment no better than before.

Liberals don't understand the phrase "be the change you want to see in the world."

Instead Liberals say "use big government guns and lethal force to coerce people to accept your change."

Thomas Jefferson and John Adams despised one another and disagreed on everything EXCEPT this one idea - Constant Revolution. The idea that no generation has the right to govern any other generation.

As long as there are young people, there will be a progressive movement, and as long as their are old people, there will be a conservative one.

There's lots of old Liberals and young Conservatives.

The good thing about old people - their old ideas die with them.

Really? So you're glad Thomas Jefferson's ideas have died off?

Hey, fvck it, Communo-fascism is the new fad, the young people said so. Embrace Communo-Fascism and kill the Republic of Liberty. Out with the old, in with the new.

News flash idiot, Freedom and the Constitution is a new idea, Liberals want to go back thousands of years to ancient Rome and their Keynesian economics, high taxes, and no freedom.
"We must raise the standard of the Old, free, decentralized, and strictly limited Republic."
-- Murray Rothbard

"The worst thing that can happen to a good cause is, not to be skillfully attacked, but to be ineptly defended."
-- Frederic Bastiat
ConservativeAmerican
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2/19/2013 10:33:12 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 2/19/2013 10:23:08 AM, GeoLaureate8 wrote:
At 2/19/2013 10:10:25 AM, malcolmxy wrote:
At 2/19/2013 9:45:45 AM, GeoLaureate8 wrote:
Progressive = Progress past the Constitution

Conservative = Conserve the Constitution

Progressives want to change something.

They like to steal wealth, tell people what to do, and be everyone's nanny. No, you can't have that light bulb, you have to buy fluorescent light bulb with Mercury in it. No, you can't build the Keystone Pipeline even though it's overall better for the environment, no we want to force higher gas prices with an environment no better than before.

Liberals don't understand the phrase "be the change you want to see in the world."

Instead Liberals say "use big government guns and lethal force to coerce people to accept your change."

Thomas Jefferson and John Adams despised one another and disagreed on everything EXCEPT this one idea - Constant Revolution. The idea that no generation has the right to govern any other generation.

As long as there are young people, there will be a progressive movement, and as long as their are old people, there will be a conservative one.

There's lots of old Liberals and young Conservatives.

The good thing about old people - their old ideas die with them.

Really? So you're glad Thomas Jefferson's ideas have died off?

Hey, fvck it, Communo-fascism is the new fad, the young people said so. Embrace Communo-Fascism and kill the Republic of Liberty. Out with the old, in with the new.

News flash idiot, Freedom and the Constitution is a new idea, Liberals want to go back thousands of years to ancient Rome and their Keynesian economics, high taxes, and no freedom.

A little extreme there, but the general idea is pretty much right. Lol
malcolmxy
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2/19/2013 10:36:53 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 2/19/2013 10:23:08 AM, GeoLaureate8 wrote:
At 2/19/2013 10:10:25 AM, malcolmxy wrote:
At 2/19/2013 9:45:45 AM, GeoLaureate8 wrote:
Progressive = Progress past the Constitution

Conservative = Conserve the Constitution

Progressives want to change something.

They like to steal wealth, tell people what to do, and be everyone's nanny. No, you can't have that light bulb, you have to buy fluorescent light bulb with Mercury in it. No, you can't build the Keystone Pipeline even though it's overall better for the environment, no we want to force higher gas prices with an environment no better than before.

Liberals don't understand the phrase "be the change you want to see in the world."

You're a Libertarian...ever notice that you share the root, Liberty, with Liberal?

Instead Liberals say "use big government guns and lethal force to coerce people to accept your change."

And conservatives use dogs and fire hoses, along with those same guns...to deny some liberty over others.

Thomas Jefferson and John Adams despised one another and disagreed on everything EXCEPT this one idea - Constant Revolution. The idea that no generation has the right to govern any other generation.

As long as there are young people, there will be a progressive movement, and as long as their are old people, there will be a conservative one.

There's lots of old Liberals and young Conservatives.

You're only as old as you act.

The good thing about old people - their old ideas die with them.

Really? So you're glad Thomas Jefferson's ideas have died off?

His ideas didn't die - I just recited some to you.

Hey, fvck it, Communo-fascism is the new fad, the young people said so. Embrace Communo-Fascism and kill the Republic of Liberty. Out with the old, in with the new.

If it is the will of the people, then it is the will of the people. As I said - no generation has the right to govern any other.

News flash idiot, Freedom and the Constitution is a new idea, Liberals want to go back thousands of years to ancient Rome and their Keynesian economics, high taxes, and no freedom.

News flash - Keynesian Economics is an EVEN NEWER IDEA.

And, I'm pretty sure the Magna Carta outlined this stuff well before our constitution did.
War is over, if you want it.

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GeoLaureate8
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2/19/2013 11:01:26 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 2/19/2013 10:36:53 AM, malcolmxy wrote:
At 2/19/2013 10:23:08 AM, GeoLaureate8 wrote:
They like to steal wealth, tell people what to do, and be everyone's nanny. No, you can't have that light bulb, you have to buy fluorescent light bulb with Mercury in it. No, you can't build the Keystone Pipeline even though it's overall better for the environment, no we want to force higher gas prices with an environment no better than before.

Liberals don't understand the phrase "be the change you want to see in the world."

You're a Libertarian...ever notice that you share the root, Liberty, with Liberal?

You didn't refute anything I said. Why do Liberals want to force deadly mercury into my house. Why do Liberals want to shut off my energy with a smart meter.

Liberals have nothing to do with Liberty. That's why they're called Liberal and not Libertarian. If Liberals were all about freedom then why is there the Libertarian ideology?

Instead Liberals say "use big government guns and lethal force to coerce people to accept your change."

And conservatives use dogs and fire hoses,

MLK was Republican and the KKK introduced Liberal gun control laws. The Liberals beloved Planned Parenthood was founded by eugenecist, ethnic cleanser Margaret Sanger.

Please give me a specific example of Conservatives forcing people to do stuff. No, I'm not referring to Neo-Cons or fundamentalists. I'm talking Barry Goldwater.

There's lots of old Liberals and young Conservatives.

You're only as old as you act.

Too bad Liberals act like idiots. Take Al Sharpton who recently said yeah we'll take your guns, they're worthless anyways because we got drones to bomb you with.

Hey, fvck it, Communo-fascism is the new fad, the young people said so. Embrace Communo-Fascism and kill the Republic of Liberty. Out with the old, in with the new.

If it is the will of the people, then it is the will of the people.

And that right there folks is why Liberalism and Democratic ideology is inherently flawed.

If it's the will of the majority, then slavery it is.

If 51% vote to put the 49% in a meat grinder, it's the will of the people.

As I said - no generation has the right to govern any other.

And no mob, whether this generation or the last, has the right to govern me.

You think that tyranny is perfectly fine so long as it's the collective choice of the current generation.

News flash idiot, Freedom and the Constitution is a new idea, Liberals want to go back thousands of years to ancient Rome and their Keynesian economics, high taxes, and no freedom.

News flash - Keynesian Economics is an EVEN NEWER IDEA.

In theory, no. Ancient Rome inflated the currency and had high taxes.

And, I'm pretty sure the Magna Carta outlined this stuff well before our constitution did.

Some, not all. Nobody contends that freedom is a new idea historically.
"We must raise the standard of the Old, free, decentralized, and strictly limited Republic."
-- Murray Rothbard

"The worst thing that can happen to a good cause is, not to be skillfully attacked, but to be ineptly defended."
-- Frederic Bastiat
MichaelGonzales
Posts: 211
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2/20/2013 12:21:09 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 2/19/2013 10:23:08 AM, GeoLaureate8 wrote:
News flash idiot, Freedom and the Constitution is a new idea, Liberals want to go back thousands of years to ancient Rome and their Keynesian economics, high taxes, and no freedom.

I'm not really out to debate or anything, but the Constitution is a very unoriginal idea. Charters and compacts were miniature forms of the Constitution with origination from England. As for freedom -- where do you get the idea that that is a new concept? Why do you think liberals want to undermine that freedom?
GeoLaureate8
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2/20/2013 12:49:17 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 2/20/2013 12:21:09 PM, MichaelGonzales wrote:
At 2/19/2013 10:23:08 AM, GeoLaureate8 wrote:
News flash idiot, Freedom and the Constitution is a new idea, Liberals want to go back thousands of years to ancient Rome and their Keynesian economics, high taxes, and no freedom.

I'm not really out to debate or anything, but the Constitution is a very unoriginal idea. Charters and compacts were miniature forms of the Constitution with origination from England.

Historically, monarchies, feudalism, oligarchy, empires, kingdoms, and tyrannies have been the norm. America is a rare experiment of applied freedom. I don't deny these ideas exist in the Magna Carta.

As for freedom -- where do you get the idea that that is a new concept? Why do you think liberals want to undermine that freedom?

Liberals want to force deadly Mercury into my home, they want to shut off my energy with smart meters, they want to make people dependent on government with the welfare state, they want to steal my income and give it to people unwilling to work, they want government making my healthcare decisions, and the list goes on. See my thread "Liberals and Democrats Exposed."
"We must raise the standard of the Old, free, decentralized, and strictly limited Republic."
-- Murray Rothbard

"The worst thing that can happen to a good cause is, not to be skillfully attacked, but to be ineptly defended."
-- Frederic Bastiat
Greyparrot
Posts: 14,212
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2/20/2013 12:56:07 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
Really, how is a bloated huge nanny government a new progressive idea?

Pretty sure historically almost all forms at various points, including monarchies(which we fled from btw), have tried to micromanage every peasant.
Greyparrot
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2/20/2013 12:58:03 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 2/20/2013 12:49:17 PM, GeoLaureate8 wrote:
At 2/20/2013 12:21:09 PM, MichaelGonzales wrote:
At 2/19/2013 10:23:08 AM, GeoLaureate8 wrote:
News flash idiot, Freedom and the Constitution is a new idea, Liberals want to go back thousands of years to ancient Rome and their Keynesian economics, high taxes, and no freedom.

I'm not really out to debate or anything, but the Constitution is a very unoriginal idea. Charters and compacts were miniature forms of the Constitution with origination from England.

Historically, monarchies, feudalism, oligarchy, empires, kingdoms, and tyrannies have been the norm. America is a rare experiment of applied freedom. I don't deny these ideas exist in the Magna Carta.:

Crap Geo beat me to it....again....
charleslb
Posts: 4,740
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2/20/2013 3:09:23 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 2/18/2013 12:34:22 PM, dylancatlow wrote:
Collectivism and progressive ideas seems to now be the norm in much of the world. I'd argue conservatives are now the progressives.

For conservatives to be progressives they'd have to cease being conservatives altogether, cease being advocates of capitalism, of socioeconomic injustice and inequality, of religious bigotry, of racial bigotry, of anti-gay bigotry, of "gun rights", of the death penalty, etc., etc. They'd have to cease being all of the above and actually begin to take progressive stances. Short of this, claiming that conservatives are somehow progressive is senseless and borders on Orwellian doublethink (shades of "War is Peace, Freedom is Slavery, and Ignorance is Strength"). Well, calling conservatives "progressives" does condone a kind of Newspeak that obliterates the real meaning of words, let's not go in for such a thing.
Yo, all of my subliterate conservative criticasters who find perusing and processing the sesquipedalian verbiage of my posts to be such a bothersome brain-taxing chore, I have a new nickname for you. Henceforth you shall be known as Pooh Bears. No, not for the obvious apt reasons, i.e., not because you're full of pooh, and not because of your ursine irritability. Rather, you put me in mind of an A.A. Milne quote, "I am a Bear of Very Little Brain, and long words bother me". Love ya, Pooh Bears.
MichaelGonzales
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2/20/2013 5:18:02 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 2/20/2013 12:49:17 PM, GeoLaureate8 wrote:
Liberals want to force deadly Mercury into my home, they want to shut off my energy with smart meters, they want to make people dependent on government with the welfare state, they want to steal my income and give it to people unwilling to work, they want government making my healthcare decisions, and the list goes on. See my thread "Liberals and Democrats Exposed."

I'm a liberal, and I have no interest in any of that. Maybe you're beating up on a strawman?
BigSky
Posts: 141
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2/20/2013 5:58:04 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 2/20/2013 3:09:23 PM, charleslb wrote:
At 2/18/2013 12:34:22 PM, dylancatlow wrote:
Collectivism and progressive ideas seems to now be the norm in much of the world. I'd argue conservatives are now the progressives.

For conservatives to be progressives they'd have to cease being conservatives altogether, cease being advocates of capitalism, of socioeconomic injustice and inequality, of religious bigotry, of racial bigotry, of anti-gay bigotry, of "gun rights", of the death penalty, etc., etc. They'd have to cease being all of the above and actually begin to take progressive stances. Short of this, claiming that conservatives are somehow progressive is senseless and borders on Orwellian doublethink (shades of "War is Peace, Freedom is Slavery, and Ignorance is Strength"). Well, calling conservatives "progressives" does condone a kind of Newspeak that obliterates the real meaning of words, let's not go in for such a thing.

You misunderstand the word bigot.