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Voluntaryism vs Socialism Debate

Wallstreetatheist
Posts: 7,132
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2/20/2013 10:07:26 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
This was a Voluntaryist vs Socialist debate held recently at the Libertalia Cafe in San Diego. The debate was not about what form of government should exist, but whether or not government should exist at all.

Representing the Voluntaryist team: Joseph Corbett and Joey Hill. Representing the Socialist team: Herb Shore and Gregg Robinson. The Moderator was Donna Orlando. This is a 27 part series of short clips so you can navigate the debate easily, like on a DVD. Enjoy.

Best comment: I love it, you can tell by the age of the debaters which philosophy is on it's way out, and which one is on the way in.
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johnnyboy54
Posts: 6,362
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2/21/2013 12:56:46 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
I don't have time to watch the video, but I isn't volunteerism and socialism compatible in some forms?
I didn't order assholes with my whiskey.
GeoLaureate8
Posts: 12,252
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2/21/2013 1:07:31 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 2/21/2013 12:20:11 AM, Wallstreetatheist wrote:
I forgot that debate sites don't like debates. Sorry :(

I'm watching it now. Won't get to finish it til tomorrow though.
"We must raise the standard of the Old, free, decentralized, and strictly limited Republic."
-- Murray Rothbard

"The worst thing that can happen to a good cause is, not to be skillfully attacked, but to be ineptly defended."
-- Frederic Bastiat
GeoLaureate8
Posts: 12,252
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2/21/2013 1:47:17 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
Watched the first 8 segments and I have to say, the Democratic Socialists are winning the debate and making better points. The Joey Hill guy from the Mises Institute is good at defending Voluntaryism, but overall, the Socialists are winning the first half.
"We must raise the standard of the Old, free, decentralized, and strictly limited Republic."
-- Murray Rothbard

"The worst thing that can happen to a good cause is, not to be skillfully attacked, but to be ineptly defended."
-- Frederic Bastiat
Wallstreetatheist
Posts: 7,132
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2/21/2013 11:29:36 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 2/21/2013 12:56:46 AM, johnnyboy54 wrote:
I don't have time to watch the video, but I isn't volunteerism and socialism compatible in some forms?

Voluntaryists would allow a socialist community to form, provided people voluntarily joined the community and were free to leave. Socialists would not allow voluntaryists, libertarians, and anarchists to form similar communities in their societies, because without extorting from their tax livestock, their socialist utopia ends up falling apart due to economic failures and brain drain.
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Primal Diet. Lifting. Reading. Psychedelics. Cold-Approach Pickup. Music.
Kinesis
Posts: 3,667
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2/21/2013 3:48:50 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
I watched quite a lot of it. The statist guys were doing quite well until they started trying to redefine 'force' to escape that their view entailed violating the non-aggression principle. They conceded too much and I don't think they realised it until too late.
FREEDO
Posts: 21,057
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2/21/2013 4:15:00 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
It would be a better debate with anarcho-socialists vs state socialists. Gets more to the heart of the issue.
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fnord
FREEDO
Posts: 21,057
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2/21/2013 4:47:08 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
I have to say that the Voluntarysts sound really dumb. Emphasizing on the rights issue isn't going to convince anyone. At least the Socialists addressed real world issues. I haven't watched all of it though.
GRAND POOBAH OF DDO

fnord
GeoLaureate8
Posts: 12,252
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2/22/2013 2:05:57 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 2/21/2013 4:47:08 PM, FREEDO wrote:
I have to say that the Voluntarysts sound really dumb. Emphasizing on the rights issue isn't going to convince anyone. At least the Socialists addressed real world issues. I haven't watched all of it though.

Agreed. I quite liked the Socialist fellas. They raised many good points. I thought for sure the Voluntaryists would smash them, I myself favor Voluntaryism.

Then again, the Socialists appealed to my Minarchist sensibilities and exposed that the market can create it's own monopoly of force even in a stateless society.
"We must raise the standard of the Old, free, decentralized, and strictly limited Republic."
-- Murray Rothbard

"The worst thing that can happen to a good cause is, not to be skillfully attacked, but to be ineptly defended."
-- Frederic Bastiat
Wallstreetatheist
Posts: 7,132
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2/22/2013 10:52:39 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
This is what I wrote when I posted this to WVU's Students For Liberty page:
Here's a decent debate between Voluntaryists (one is great, one is speaking impaired) and Democratic Socialists (one is great, one speaks and looks exceedingly dumb). Part two starts the debate, this is the intro. Click on the YouTube button to open it in a new tab with the playlist.
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Primal Diet. Lifting. Reading. Psychedelics. Cold-Approach Pickup. Music.
ZakYoungTheLibertarian
Posts: 253
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2/22/2013 12:42:28 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
the market can be a form of coercion? oh yah, cause the last time i went to the grocery store the cashier was all like 'buy these melons or i'll shoot u'
GeoLaureate8
Posts: 12,252
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2/22/2013 4:39:19 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 2/22/2013 12:42:28 PM, ZakYoungTheLibertarian wrote:
the market can be a form of coercion? oh yah, cause the last time i went to the grocery store the cashier was all like 'buy these melons or i'll shoot u'

If there is a demand for privatized police, private police will initiate force on behalf of the person who paid for them. Another example is Monsanto, the big GMO monopoly beating up natural farmers and bullying Whole Foods.
"We must raise the standard of the Old, free, decentralized, and strictly limited Republic."
-- Murray Rothbard

"The worst thing that can happen to a good cause is, not to be skillfully attacked, but to be ineptly defended."
-- Frederic Bastiat
ZakYoungTheLibertarian
Posts: 253
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2/22/2013 4:44:39 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
The only valid criticism of Monsanto I've heard personally (i'm not denying the existence of others, I've just never heard them) is how they abuse the patent system. Simple solution - eliminate patents.

As far as private police abusing people... under a libertarian system of law, anyone, a cop or anyone, who attacks someone is criminally liable. Contrast that with our current system, where police can literally kill you, and the worst that will happen to them is time off with pay. I think I'll take my chances with the market and a libertarian system of law than our current crummy statist system.
GeoLaureate8
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2/22/2013 4:55:03 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 2/22/2013 4:44:39 PM, ZakYoungTheLibertarian wrote:
The only valid criticism of Monsanto I've heard personally (i'm not denying the existence of others, I've just never heard them) is how they abuse the patent system. Simple solution - eliminate patents.

Hahaha, you'd be surprised at what they're doing. They're eugenics poisoning monsters who infiltrated the Supreme Court and FDA. They literally control the FDA now because they conspired with Obama who appointed their man to be FDA head.

As far as private police abusing people... under a libertarian system of law, anyone, a cop or anyone, who attacks someone is criminally liable. Contrast that with our current system, where police can literally kill you, and the worst that will happen to them is time off with pay. I think I'll take my chances with the market and a libertarian system of law than our current crummy statist system.

You said markets can't initiate force now you're saying they can?

Criminally liable to who? A private court? What if the mafia invested in the courts and they rule that their violent police force is not liable?
"We must raise the standard of the Old, free, decentralized, and strictly limited Republic."
-- Murray Rothbard

"The worst thing that can happen to a good cause is, not to be skillfully attacked, but to be ineptly defended."
-- Frederic Bastiat
ZakYoungTheLibertarian
Posts: 253
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2/22/2013 5:30:20 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
Technically markets can't do anything only individuals can act. Of course there would still be criminals in a libertarian society who initiate violence against others, the point is this violence and aggression would not be legitimized and systematized as it is currently.

Criminally liable to, yes, the private competing courts, private competing police forces and more broadly society at large. Any kangaroo court would be broadly ignored, their verdicts considered to be worthless pieces of paper and any acts of aggression by their police would be dealt with by other private security forces (private police) in the customary manner. Judge's stock in trade would be the fairness and impartiality of their verdicts.

But what if you had a system where one organization monopolized the court system, so that only this organizations courts were allowed to function? And what if this organization - we'll call it the government - routinely ruled that their agents can murder, steal, extort, rob, in short, do virtually anything at all? What then would your recourse be? How would you solve that problem, under the rubric of state monopolization of justice, policing, etc.?

And why should we agitate for free market competition in goods so irrelevant as alcohol and childrens toys, yet accept the inferior results of socialism in such critical industries as justice, security, infrastructure, etc.?