Total Posts:25|Showing Posts:1-25
Jump to topic:

Libertarians and Republicans

BigRat
Posts: 465
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
2/24/2013 6:23:50 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
I am curious what you true libertarians think of folks like me. I am a registered Republican who voted for Mitt Romney and typically does vote for the Republican candidate.

I generally prefer their economic policies to that of the Democrats. However, I also oppose the drug war. I am not a non interventionist, but I also think that both Bush and Obama have been too quick to intervene. I am hawkish on Iran but more non interventionist on other foreign policy issues. On social issues, I truly don't have opinions.

I'm not pro life or pro choice. I simply never have thought enough about abortion or gay marriage to formulate an informed opinion.

So, I guess my question is for libertarians. What do you think of Republicans with libertarian leanings?
lewis20
Posts: 5,093
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
2/24/2013 6:47:56 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
Speaking fore every libertarian everywhere I'd say if you sell out to one party that only holds half your beliefs you're just as bad as any other American voter.
Republicans don't handle government spending well, so short of rhetoric, I've had less and less reason to be inclined to vote for them.
It's hard to find a difference between democrat and republican when it comes to action when in office.
"If you are a racist I will attack you with the north"- Abraham Lincoln

"Do not wear clothing woven of two kinds of material" - Leviticus 19 19

"War is a racket" - Smedley Butler
lewis20
Posts: 5,093
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
2/24/2013 6:50:19 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
Basically nothing will ever change in voting for the lesser of two evils.
What do you find disagreeable about the libertarian platform?
"If you are a racist I will attack you with the north"- Abraham Lincoln

"Do not wear clothing woven of two kinds of material" - Leviticus 19 19

"War is a racket" - Smedley Butler
ZakYoungTheLibertarian
Posts: 253
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
2/24/2013 8:25:13 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
I don't think of you. As far as your political views, they are... unsurprising but I'm glad you are beginning to self identify as a libertarian. There's hope for you yet. To me, democrat, republican, it's all the same thing. These political parties care only for power (their own) and money (yours and making it their own). I suggest you stop listening to the empty promises of politicians and start reading some Murray Rothbard.
twocupcakes
Posts: 2,748
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
2/24/2013 9:18:13 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 2/24/2013 6:23:50 PM, BigRat wrote:
I am curious what you true libertarians think of folks like me. I am a registered Republican who voted for Mitt Romney and typically does vote for the Republican candidate.

I generally prefer their economic policies to that of the Democrats. However, I also oppose the drug war. I am not a non interventionist, but I also think that both Bush and Obama have been too quick to intervene. I am hawkish on Iran but more non interventionist on other foreign policy issues. On social issues, I truly don't have opinions.

I'm not pro life or pro choice. I simply never have thought enough about abortion or gay marriage to formulate an informed opinion.

So, I guess my question is for libertarians. What do you think of Republicans with libertarian leanings?

If you are for democratic economic policies, no opinion on social, a non interventionist and against the drug war, why the hell did you vote republican? What republican views do you hold?
BigRat
Posts: 465
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
2/24/2013 10:08:12 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 2/24/2013 9:18:13 PM, twocupcakes wrote:
At 2/24/2013 6:23:50 PM, BigRat wrote:
I am curious what you true libertarians think of folks like me. I am a registered Republican who voted for Mitt Romney and typically does vote for the Republican candidate.

I generally prefer their economic policies to that of the Democrats. However, I also oppose the drug war. I am not a non interventionist, but I also think that both Bush and Obama have been too quick to intervene. I am hawkish on Iran but more non interventionist on other foreign policy issues. On social issues, I truly don't have opinions.

I'm not pro life or pro choice. I simply never have thought enough about abortion or gay marriage to formulate an informed opinion.

So, I guess my question is for libertarians. What do you think of Republicans with libertarian leanings?

If you are for democratic economic policies, no opinion on social, a non interventionist and against the drug war, why the hell did you vote republican? What republican views do you hold?

I think you read wrong. I said I prefer the economic policies of the Republicans to the economic policies of the Democrats.
proglib
Posts: 391
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
2/25/2013 12:45:14 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 2/24/2013 6:47:56 PM, lewis20 wrote:
Speaking fore every libertarian everywhere I'd say if you sell out to one party that only holds half your beliefs you're just as bad as any other American voter.
Republicans don't handle government spending well, so short of rhetoric, I've had less and less reason to be inclined to vote for them.
It's hard to find a difference between democrat and republican when it comes to action when in office.

You don't speak "fore" me...;)

Just kidding. I'm a libertarian (mostly) who agrees with BigRat on more things than probably most so-called "TEA Party libertarians", but I rarely vote Republican.

Oh, and I don't really care what "perfect" libertarians think of me. Only two kinds of perfect people in my experience. One is strangers.
"I would remind you that extremism in the defense of liberty is no vice.* And let me remind you also that moderation in the pursuit of justice is no virtue." Barry Goldwater
*Except in a democracy it might lose you an election.

http://unitedwegovern.org...
proglib
Posts: 391
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
2/25/2013 12:54:09 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 2/24/2013 6:50:19 PM, lewis20 wrote:
Basically nothing will ever change in voting for the lesser of two evils.
What do you find disagreeable about the libertarian platform?

ROFL..."nothing ever changes in voting for lesser of two evils"?

Tell that to people who voted for Nader in Florida. I know it is all of 12 years ago, but for Pete's sake it isn't even history yet.

Earth to purists, earth to purists.

I treat my vote as if elections are job interviews, not popularity or beauty contests. I vote to help the best candidate who get the job, do so.
"I would remind you that extremism in the defense of liberty is no vice.* And let me remind you also that moderation in the pursuit of justice is no virtue." Barry Goldwater
*Except in a democracy it might lose you an election.

http://unitedwegovern.org...
darkkermit
Posts: 11,204
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
2/25/2013 12:55:39 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 2/24/2013 6:47:56 PM, lewis20 wrote:
Speaking fore every libertarian everywhere I'd say if you sell out to one party that only holds half your beliefs you're just as bad as any other American voter.
Republicans don't handle government spending well, so short of rhetoric, I've had less and less reason to be inclined to vote for them.
It's hard to find a difference between democrat and republican when it comes to action when in office.

There are republicans that actually pursue their message of limited government as Republican. Gary Johnson was a republican. So is Ron Paul and Rand Paul. I believe there are other libertarians politicians that are Republican. The way I see it, the Republican party has a much better chance of turning into a libertarian movement then the Democratic Party ever could. The Demcoratic party openly doesn't beleive in limited government. I believe Milton Friedman said "I am a libertarian with a lower "l" and a Republican with a capital "R". I don't vote Republican because I agree with their platform, but they are the best political instrument for the libertarian movement". Something along those lines.

The Democratic Party and Republican Party platforms have historically changed over time, and we know that. The democratic party was the racist party for quite some time. But now minorities vote democratic more then republican. However, there hasn't been a change in the political parties since 1865,
and considering that both parties have conspired to create greater barriers to entry of third parties, its unlikely that we'll see a third party rise again.
Open borders debate:
http://www.debate.org...
proglib
Posts: 391
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
2/25/2013 1:03:11 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 2/24/2013 8:25:13 PM, ZakYoungTheLibertarian wrote:
I don't think of you. As far as your political views, they are... unsurprising but I'm glad you are beginning to self identify as a libertarian. There's hope for you yet. To me, democrat, republican, it's all the same thing. These political parties care only for power (their own) and money (yours and making it their own). I suggest you stop listening to the empty promises of politicians and start reading some Murray Rothbard.

Murray is the wrong one to listen to in voting for today's politicians...for one thing, isn't Mr. Rothbard dead?

So when it comes to democracy, the last people to get advice from probably would be people voting for the "perfect" (fill in the blank.)
"I would remind you that extremism in the defense of liberty is no vice.* And let me remind you also that moderation in the pursuit of justice is no virtue." Barry Goldwater
*Except in a democracy it might lose you an election.

http://unitedwegovern.org...
GeoLaureate8
Posts: 12,252
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
2/25/2013 1:14:40 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 2/24/2013 6:23:50 PM, BigRat wrote:
I am curious what you true libertarians think of folks like me. I am a registered Republican who voted for Mitt Romney and typically does vote for the Republican candidate.

I generally prefer their economic policies to that of the Democrats. However, I also oppose the drug war. I am not a non interventionist, but I also think that both Bush and Obama have been too quick to intervene. I am hawkish on Iran but more non interventionist on other foreign policy issues. On social issues, I truly don't have opinions.

I'm not pro life or pro choice. I simply never have thought enough about abortion or gay marriage to formulate an informed opinion.

So, I guess my question is for libertarians. What do you think of Republicans with libertarian leanings?

That right there seems to encapsulate the growing platform taking over the Republican party right now.

Libertarianism has crept its way into the Republican party to the point where social issues are pushed to the side, and fiscal policy and civil liberties are at the forefront.

The pro-war stance of the Republican party has also died down. They no longer have the burning desire to go overseas now that 9/11 is so distant and new current foreign policy decisions are taking precedent.
"We must raise the standard of the Old, free, decentralized, and strictly limited Republic."
-- Murray Rothbard

"The worst thing that can happen to a good cause is, not to be skillfully attacked, but to be ineptly defended."
-- Frederic Bastiat
darkkermit
Posts: 11,204
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
2/25/2013 1:26:04 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 2/25/2013 1:14:40 AM, GeoLaureate8 wrote:
At 2/24/2013 6:23:50 PM, BigRat wrote:
I am curious what you true libertarians think of folks like me. I am a registered Republican who voted for Mitt Romney and typically does vote for the Republican candidate.

I generally prefer their economic policies to that of the Democrats. However, I also oppose the drug war. I am not a non interventionist, but I also think that both Bush and Obama have been too quick to intervene. I am hawkish on Iran but more non interventionist on other foreign policy issues. On social issues, I truly don't have opinions.

I'm not pro life or pro choice. I simply never have thought enough about abortion or gay marriage to formulate an informed opinion.

So, I guess my question is for libertarians. What do you think of Republicans with libertarian leanings?

That right there seems to encapsulate the growing platform taking over the Republican party right now.

Libertarianism has crept its way into the Republican party to the point where social issues are pushed to the side, and fiscal policy and civil liberties are at the forefront.

The pro-war stance of the Republican party has also died down. They no longer have the burning desire to go overseas now that 9/11 is so distant and new current foreign policy decisions are taking precedent.

So you now in favor of the republican party. That's interesting considering you think most of them are part of the NWO.
Open borders debate:
http://www.debate.org...
BigRat
Posts: 465
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
2/25/2013 1:37:22 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 2/25/2013 12:45:14 AM, proglib wrote:
At 2/24/2013 6:47:56 PM, lewis20 wrote:
Speaking fore every libertarian everywhere I'd say if you sell out to one party that only holds half your beliefs you're just as bad as any other American voter.
Republicans don't handle government spending well, so short of rhetoric, I've had less and less reason to be inclined to vote for them.
It's hard to find a difference between democrat and republican when it comes to action when in office.

You don't speak "fore" me...;)

Just kidding. I'm a libertarian (mostly) who agrees with BigRat on more things than probably most so-called "TEA Party libertarians", but I rarely vote Republican.

Oh, and I don't really care what "perfect" libertarians think of me. Only two kinds of perfect people in my experience. One is strangers.

I agree with this.

I would also like to say that I do not associate with the Tea Party and, even though I am a registered Republican, I like to think of myself as a pretty independant person. I have voted for Democrats before.
GeoLaureate8
Posts: 12,252
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
2/25/2013 1:42:51 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 2/25/2013 1:26:04 AM, darkkermit wrote:
So you now in favor of the republican party. That's interesting considering you think most of them are part of the NWO.

I'm in favor of the Libertarian takeover of the Republican party and the Neo-Con turncoats. Bill Kristol, Karl Rove, Bill O'Reilly, Sean Hannity, etc. all seem to be accepting the Libertarian-Republican narrative led by Rand Paul. Karl Rove gave $3 million dollars to Rand Paul.

A new wave of Ron Paul-endorsed candidates have entered the House and Senate. Rand Paul convinced Republican Senate Minority leader, Mitch McConnel to legalize industrial hemp.
"We must raise the standard of the Old, free, decentralized, and strictly limited Republic."
-- Murray Rothbard

"The worst thing that can happen to a good cause is, not to be skillfully attacked, but to be ineptly defended."
-- Frederic Bastiat
BigRat
Posts: 465
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
2/25/2013 1:44:23 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 2/25/2013 12:55:39 AM, darkkermit wrote:
At 2/24/2013 6:47:56 PM, lewis20 wrote:
Speaking fore every libertarian everywhere I'd say if you sell out to one party that only holds half your beliefs you're just as bad as any other American voter.
Republicans don't handle government spending well, so short of rhetoric, I've had less and less reason to be inclined to vote for them.
It's hard to find a difference between democrat and republican when it comes to action when in office.

There are republicans that actually pursue their message of limited government as Republican. Gary Johnson was a republican. So is Ron Paul and Rand Paul. I believe there are other libertarians politicians that are Republican. The way I see it, the Republican party has a much better chance of turning into a libertarian movement then the Democratic Party ever could. The Demcoratic party openly doesn't beleive in limited government. I believe Milton Friedman said "I am a libertarian with a lower "l" and a Republican with a capital "R". I don't vote Republican because I agree with their platform, but they are the best political instrument for the libertarian movement". Something along those lines.

The Democratic Party and Republican Party platforms have historically changed over time, and we know that. The democratic party was the racist party for quite some time. But now minorities vote democratic more then republican. However, there hasn't been a change in the political parties since 1865,
and considering that both parties have conspired to create greater barriers to entry of third parties, its unlikely that we'll see a third party rise again.

I agree with this for the most part.

The only part I take issue with is when you claim the Democratic Party was a racist party. This isn't incorrect, but I think it is phrased incorrectly.

In the beginning, the Democratic party was the party of white urban workers, Catholic immigrants, and southern and rural whites (plenty of overlap there). Republicans were the party of wealthier, protestant whites from the north (largely Anglo-Saxon) and blacks.

Now, Democrats pushed the interest of their constituents and vice versa. This oftentimes led to Democrats pushing what we would call a racist agenda. But, to put it more correctly, we should say that they pursued an agenda that favored the interest of southern whites, Catholic immigrants, and urban workers at the expense of wealthier, protestant whites and blacks.

The shift in the parties has come as interests have shifted. This doesn't say anything about which side is right, however.
rogue
Posts: 2,325
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
2/25/2013 2:30:24 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 2/24/2013 6:47:56 PM, lewis20 wrote:
Speaking fore every libertarian everywhere I'd say if you sell out to one party that only holds half your beliefs you're just as bad as any other American voter.
Republicans don't handle government spending well, so short of rhetoric, I've had less and less reason to be inclined to vote for them.
It's hard to find a difference between democrat and republican when it comes to action when in office.

I disagree. Maybe the parties aren't so different in the presidency but they are drastically different in Congress which is why it gets nothing done. I don't think selling out to a party is something to be looked down upon for. You basically have to in this country. It sucks but it is true. Economically the presidents aren't so different but they easily are in terms of social issues and foreign policy and those issues are also important.
Contra
Posts: 3,941
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
2/25/2013 3:26:56 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 2/24/2013 6:23:50 PM, BigRat wrote:
I am curious what you true libertarians think of folks like me. I am a registered Republican who voted for Mitt Romney and typically does vote for the Republican candidate.

I generally prefer their economic policies to that of the Democrats. However, I also oppose the drug war. I am not a non interventionist, but I also think that both Bush and Obama have been too quick to intervene. I am hawkish on Iran but more non interventionist on other foreign policy issues. On social issues, I truly don't have opinions.

I'm not pro life or pro choice. I simply never have thought enough about abortion or gay marriage to formulate an informed opinion.

So, I guess my question is for libertarians. What do you think of Republicans with libertarian leanings?

I think that as a nation with a two party political system, being a Republican but still a libertarian is probably the way to go.

Mitt Romney also was the candidate to vote for, as he was more fiscally conservative.
"The solution [for Republicans] is to admit that Bush was a bad president, stop this racist homophobic stuff, stop trying to give most of the tax cuts to the rich, propose a real alternative to Obamacare that actually works, and propose smart free market solutions to our economic problems." - Distraff

"Americans are better off in a dynamic, free-enterprise-based economy that fosters economic growth, opportunity and upward mobility." - Paul Ryan
darkkermit
Posts: 11,204
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
2/25/2013 3:37:54 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 2/25/2013 1:42:51 AM, GeoLaureate8 wrote:
At 2/25/2013 1:26:04 AM, darkkermit wrote:
So you now in favor of the republican party. That's interesting considering you think most of them are part of the NWO.

I'm in favor of the Libertarian takeover of the Republican party and the Neo-Con turncoats. Bill Kristol, Karl Rove, Bill O'Reilly, Sean Hannity, etc. all seem to be accepting the Libertarian-Republican narrative led by Rand Paul. Karl Rove gave $3 million dollars to Rand Paul.

A new wave of Ron Paul-endorsed candidates have entered the House and Senate. Rand Paul convinced Republican Senate Minority leader, Mitch McConnel to legalize industrial hemp.

Do you watch these shows by any chance or are you just making these up? I don't watch them, so I have no idea. Although I've seen Bill O'Reilly guest star on Stossel and I wasn't impressed with him, in terms of "libertarianism". He argued some absurd proposition that gasoline companies are colluding with one another to increase gas prices. He then went against people investing in oil futures because they're raising the price of oil.
Open borders debate:
http://www.debate.org...
darkkermit
Posts: 11,204
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
2/25/2013 3:39:13 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
If you actually look at US states in terms of business freedom, there's actually not that great of a correlation at all between democratic states and republicans states.
Open borders debate:
http://www.debate.org...
BigRat
Posts: 465
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
2/25/2013 4:09:22 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 2/25/2013 3:39:13 PM, darkkermit wrote:
If you actually look at US states in terms of business freedom, there's actually not that great of a correlation at all between democratic states and republicans states.

True. Although, the worst states do tend to be blue. But, very liberal states like Massachusetts are actually pretty pro business.
Thaddeus
Posts: 6,985
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
2/25/2013 4:25:38 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 2/24/2013 6:23:50 PM, BigRat wrote:
I am curious what you true libertarians think of folks like me. I am a registered Republican who voted for Mitt Romney and typically does vote for the Republican candidate.

I generally prefer their economic policies to that of the Democrats. However, I also oppose the drug war. I am not a non interventionist, but I also think that both Bush and Obama have been too quick to intervene. I am hawkish on Iran but more non interventionist on other foreign policy issues. On social issues, I truly don't have opinions.

I'm not pro life or pro choice. I simply never have thought enough about abortion or gay marriage to formulate an informed opinion.

So, I guess my question is for libertarians. What do you think of Republicans with libertarian leanings?

I don't really care much for voting, so how could I hold it against you?
GeoLaureate8
Posts: 12,252
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
2/26/2013 12:37:19 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 2/25/2013 3:37:54 PM, darkkermit wrote:
Do you watch these shows by any chance or are you just making these up?

I watch Fox News all the time and listen to Fox News on XM radio. The entire cast of Fox News has praised Rand Paul accept Eric Bolling, Juan Williams, etc.

Bill O'Reilly openly praises Rand Paul. Sean Hannity worships Rand Paul. Andrea Tantaros wants to date Rand Paul. Kimberly Guilfoyle loves Rand Paul. Greg Gutfeld, Lou Dobbs, Stossel, Cavuto, Megyn Kelly, and Michelle Malkin love Rand Paul. How do I know this? Because I watch for every Rand Paul reference in the news and every Rand Paul appearance.
"We must raise the standard of the Old, free, decentralized, and strictly limited Republic."
-- Murray Rothbard

"The worst thing that can happen to a good cause is, not to be skillfully attacked, but to be ineptly defended."
-- Frederic Bastiat
GeoLaureate8
Posts: 12,252
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
2/26/2013 12:38:19 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
Fox News openly embracing Libertarianism:
"We must raise the standard of the Old, free, decentralized, and strictly limited Republic."
-- Murray Rothbard

"The worst thing that can happen to a good cause is, not to be skillfully attacked, but to be ineptly defended."
-- Frederic Bastiat
RyuuKyuzo
Posts: 3,074
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
2/26/2013 1:14:57 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 2/25/2013 1:44:23 AM, BigRat wrote:
At 2/25/2013 12:55:39 AM, darkkermit wrote:
At 2/24/2013 6:47:56 PM, lewis20 wrote:
Speaking fore every libertarian everywhere I'd say if you sell out to one party that only holds half your beliefs you're just as bad as any other American voter.
Republicans don't handle government spending well, so short of rhetoric, I've had less and less reason to be inclined to vote for them.
It's hard to find a difference between democrat and republican when it comes to action when in office.

There are republicans that actually pursue their message of limited government as Republican. Gary Johnson was a republican. So is Ron Paul and Rand Paul. I believe there are other libertarians politicians that are Republican. The way I see it, the Republican party has a much better chance of turning into a libertarian movement then the Democratic Party ever could. The Demcoratic party openly doesn't beleive in limited government. I believe Milton Friedman said "I am a libertarian with a lower "l" and a Republican with a capital "R". I don't vote Republican because I agree with their platform, but they are the best political instrument for the libertarian movement". Something along those lines.

The Democratic Party and Republican Party platforms have historically changed over time, and we know that. The democratic party was the racist party for quite some time. But now minorities vote democratic more then republican. However, there hasn't been a change in the political parties since 1865,
and considering that both parties have conspired to create greater barriers to entry of third parties, its unlikely that we'll see a third party rise again.


I agree with this for the most part.

The only part I take issue with is when you claim the Democratic Party was a racist party. This isn't incorrect, but I think it is phrased incorrectly.

In the beginning, the Democratic party was the party of white urban workers, Catholic immigrants, and southern and rural whites (plenty of overlap there). Republicans were the party of wealthier, protestant whites from the north (largely Anglo-Saxon) and blacks.

Now, Democrats pushed the interest of their constituents and vice versa. This oftentimes led to Democrats pushing what we would call a racist agenda. But, to put it more correctly, we should say that they pursued an agenda that favored the interest of southern whites, Catholic immigrants, and urban workers at the expense of wealthier, protestant whites and blacks.

The shift in the parties has come as interests have shifted. This doesn't say anything about which side is right, however.

You are a ruthlessly fair person.
If you're reading this, you're awesome and you should feel awesome.
proglib
Posts: 391
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
2/26/2013 3:17:41 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
Democrats could be in big trouble if Republicans get more libertarian. Sh*t, if the GOP joins the 21st century, I'll be tempted to change my party registration, again.

http://www.nytimes.com...
"I would remind you that extremism in the defense of liberty is no vice.* And let me remind you also that moderation in the pursuit of justice is no virtue." Barry Goldwater
*Except in a democracy it might lose you an election.

http://unitedwegovern.org...