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It's Not Government. It's Not Capitalism.

FREEDO
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2/28/2013 4:16:55 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
The problem is you.

The government is not a god with special powers. Neither is it even an entity. It exists on the consent of those who make it. There is a mirror here with Capitalism. We sell ourselves into bondage. Two power structures established to make us ill and sell us the cure. All the while forgetting that no one rules if no one obeys.

The market is an amazing thing. It offers powerful incentive to better our lives as a whole society. But power structures serve us nothing. They serve only groups at the expense of other groups. There is no action of hierarchy which creates wealth or innovation that could not have been created through fully voluntary bargaining, as can only exist when there is equal leverage in negotiating contract. Power structures only serve those with the power.

Yet we do not see this fairness, established for our own betterment according our own desires. For we fall into a trap. Somewhere along the line we succumb to the lie that selling our freedom will bring us more. As if our volition and our labor are stock or parts on an assembly line.

Government and Capitalism are not diseases. They are symptoms.

It is the conglomeration of our choices and the failures we have made along the way which, unfortunately, have created a feed-back-loop of incentive towards the same failing choices. We have created a society, through our own choices, in which the pressure is powerful to believe that one must sell their freedom in-order to survive.

It is well known that selling one's self into indentured servitude has become illegal. One of many cases of government trying to fix a problem it's inherently tied up in. It's something that used to be a defining trait of our economy, at least by their standards of what it is. When we embrace it's full meaning, by any standard examined on it's practical application, we see that our economy is still very much defined by indentured servitude.

I contend that freedom is the source of a people's innovation. Up to and no further than the point at which we use our freedom to give it up. And this, at it's root, is the disease. A sort of masochism. The idea that a laborer should trade their work for a wage, rather than for equity in his workplace, is fundamentally flawed. And, in a truly free market, it becomes apparent that it's just plain stupid. However, in a society where this is has already been established as the norm, it certainly becomes difficult for the individual to resist.

This same mass hysteria is the mother of, not only Capitalism, but Statism as well. For, besides the differing distributions of natural resources in geographic areas, there is no inherent reason that arms should become so concentrated to a select few. Not only does government exist only on the consent of government workers; the consent of the rest of society is also vital to the continued health of the State. This is why the most powerful and ruthless governments are founded, not only on laws and their enforcement, but on propaganda as well.

But that's all it is, really. Propaganda.

The State has flourished because the consent exists. People say to themselves that government is necessary. Altogether ignoring that the problems which government claims to alleviate are, most often, the result of a common denominator and, at any other time, even a direct result of government itself.

Power structures claim to bring order. But they are merely a different manifestation of disorder. Taking this into account, we can see that throughout human history, almost consistently across time and land mass, the human race has been in a perpetual state of civil war. At it's root, this is a war of ideas and beliefs but it translates into very real consequences of violence, subordination and a variety of suffering.

Do not try to change the system. Change ideas and the system will change itself.
GRAND POOBAH OF DDO

fnord
malcolmxy
Posts: 2,855
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2/28/2013 6:15:20 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 2/28/2013 4:16:55 AM, FREEDO wrote:

Government and Capitalism are not diseases. They are symptoms.

Actually, they're toilet seats - the public places and things where everyone leaves their bacteria-laden residue in order to spread the disease.

They magnify and perpetuate the problem.

But, you're comin' along...
War is over, if you want it.

Meet Dr. Stupid and his assistants - http://www.debate.org...
ConservativeAmerican
Posts: 1,676
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2/28/2013 7:25:10 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 2/28/2013 4:16:55 AM, FREEDO wrote:
The problem is you.

The government is not a god with special powers. Neither is it even an entity. It exists on the consent of those who make it. There is a mirror here with Capitalism. We sell ourselves into bondage. Two power structures established to make us ill and sell us the cure. All the while forgetting that no one rules if no one obeys.

The market is an amazing thing. It offers powerful incentive to better our lives as a whole society. But power structures serve us nothing. They serve only groups at the expense of other groups. There is no action of hierarchy which creates wealth or innovation that could not have been created through fully voluntary bargaining, as can only exist when there is equal leverage in negotiating contract. Power structures only serve those with the power.

Yet we do not see this fairness, established for our own betterment according our own desires. For we fall into a trap. Somewhere along the line we succumb to the lie that selling our freedom will bring us more. As if our volition and our labor are stock or parts on an assembly line.

Government and Capitalism are not diseases. They are symptoms.

It is the conglomeration of our choices and the failures we have made along the way which, unfortunately, have created a feed-back-loop of incentive towards the same failing choices. We have created a society, through our own choices, in which the pressure is powerful to believe that one must sell their freedom in-order to survive.

It is well known that selling one's self into indentured servitude has become illegal. One of many cases of government trying to fix a problem it's inherently tied up in. It's something that used to be a defining trait of our economy, at least by their standards of what it is. When we embrace it's full meaning, by any standard examined on it's practical application, we see that our economy is still very much defined by indentured servitude.

I contend that freedom is the source of a people's innovation. Up to and no further than the point at which we use our freedom to give it up. And this, at it's root, is the disease. A sort of masochism. The idea that a laborer should trade their work for a wage, rather than for equity in his workplace, is fundamentally flawed. And, in a truly free market, it becomes apparent that it's just plain stupid. However, in a society where this is has already been established as the norm, it certainly becomes difficult for the individual to resist.

This same mass hysteria is the mother of, not only Capitalism, but Statism as well. For, besides the differing distributions of natural resources in geographic areas, there is no inherent reason that arms should become so concentrated to a select few. Not only does government exist only on the consent of government workers; the consent of the rest of society is also vital to the continued health of the State. This is why the most powerful and ruthless governments are founded, not only on laws and their enforcement, but on propaganda as well.

But that's all it is, really. Propaganda.

The State has flourished because the consent exists. People say to themselves that government is necessary. Altogether ignoring that the problems which government claims to alleviate are, most often, the result of a common denominator and, at any other time, even a direct result of government itself.

Power structures claim to bring order. But they are merely a different manifestation of disorder. Taking this into account, we can see that throughout human history, almost consistently across time and land mass, the human race has been in a perpetual state of civil war. At it's root, this is a war of ideas and beliefs but it translates into very real consequences of violence, subordination and a variety of suffering.

Do not try to change the system. Change ideas and the system will change itself.

God, you are like charlesb now, with your inane drivel that is all philosophical and not logical.
Noumena
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2/28/2013 10:57:44 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
I agree for the most part though I think you made a mistake in equivocating the choices of people who originally contributed to establishing these power structures (and upon who I think your analysis works well) with people who came into being in a world already subjected to those choices. I don't know if that was on purpose or not but it might serve to discredit a lot of your analysis if someone can just point and say "whatevs they were OUR choices, we deal with them when they're wrong."
: At 5/13/2014 7:05:20 PM, Crescendo wrote:
: The difference is that the gay movement is currently pushing their will on Churches, as shown in the link to gay marriage in Denmark. Meanwhile, the Inquisition ended several centuries ago.
GeoLaureate8
Posts: 12,252
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2/28/2013 1:11:56 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
Been saying that for years (except I wouldn't say government/capitalism is the symptom, rather corrupt forms of the aforementioned).

"You must distinguish the difference between saying 'Have I been sold a lie?' And the difference between 'Yeah, but have I bought a lie.' Because there's all the difference in the world attitudinally between those two statements. You are being sold a lie! But that's the perfect right of that salesman to sell you a lie."
-- Michael Tsarion

"As soon as I hear that somebody is thinking that another authority or another person has the rights over their mental and emotional and attitudinal and psychic life, I'm worried about that person because I know that person has got some very serious psychological and existential problems. Then that person is going to be part of some herd, or will be a controller of a herd, or will be manipulated by the herd. And you're never going to find that person doing good in the world, real necessary good at all. It's just a contradiction in terms."
-- Michael Tsarion

"So the fundamental line is discover that there is a hidden hand mind controlling the world operating to keep you down. Understand that you are participant in that because you are allowing those hooks into your flesh."
-- Michael Tsarion

http://www.debate.org...
"We must raise the standard of the Old, free, decentralized, and strictly limited Republic."
-- Murray Rothbard

"The worst thing that can happen to a good cause is, not to be skillfully attacked, but to be ineptly defended."
-- Frederic Bastiat
FREEDO
Posts: 21,057
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2/28/2013 1:48:52 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 2/28/2013 10:57:44 AM, Noumena wrote:
I agree for the most part though I think you made a mistake in equivocating the choices of people who originally contributed to establishing these power structures (and upon who I think your analysis works well) with people who came into being in a world already subjected to those choices.

I thought I addressed that. They are partially at fault. They are pressured to make the wrong choices but the system still can't maintain itself without those choices.

Btw, I forgot to mention that I think the situation is actually slowly correcting itself. Self-employment and cooperative style businesses have been on the rise for a long time. I attribute this, in large, to the creation of the internet.

I don't know if that was on purpose or not but it might serve to discredit a lot of your analysis if someone can just point and say "whatevs they were OUR choices, we deal with them when they're wrong."

Yeeeaahh, except that would be retarded.

"Hey guys, I think I've discovered that it's actually irrational to put your finger in a wood chipper"

"Shut up FREEDO, we live with our own consequences."
GRAND POOBAH OF DDO

fnord
malcolmxy
Posts: 2,855
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2/28/2013 1:59:47 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 2/28/2013 1:50:07 PM, FREEDO wrote:
At 2/28/2013 5:51:05 AM, Eitan_Zohar wrote:
Commie now?

Do commies support markets?

They control them, which tends to make them stronger, and strengthening is supporting, so yes...yes they do.
War is over, if you want it.

Meet Dr. Stupid and his assistants - http://www.debate.org...
FREEDO
Posts: 21,057
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2/28/2013 2:00:57 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 2/28/2013 7:25:10 AM, ConservativeAmerican wrote:
God, you are like charlesb now, with your inane drivel that is all philosophical and not logical.

The title "It's Not Government. It's Not Capitalism." implies that it is in reply to someone who wants to abolish either of these. As such, it supplies the theory against them for context but does not go into detail. This thread is about strategy. It postulates a psychological hypothesis for open discussion about the underlining causes of social institutions that are assumed to be harmful. People who disagree with the assumption are free to make productive contributions.

You cluttered up this thread that I, much like charleslb, put effort and thought into making for my pleasure of communicating with intellectuals for their constructive commentary, with your unnecessary quoting and ad hominem comment that achieved nothing and brought this discussion nothing of value. If you don't think my thread has any value to begin with, don't post in it.
GRAND POOBAH OF DDO

fnord
GeoLaureate8
Posts: 12,252
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2/28/2013 2:01:49 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 2/28/2013 1:59:47 PM, malcolmxy wrote:
At 2/28/2013 1:50:07 PM, FREEDO wrote:
Do commies support markets?

They control them, which tends to make them stronger, and strengthening is supporting, so yes...yes they do.

Roflcopter
"We must raise the standard of the Old, free, decentralized, and strictly limited Republic."
-- Murray Rothbard

"The worst thing that can happen to a good cause is, not to be skillfully attacked, but to be ineptly defended."
-- Frederic Bastiat
FREEDO
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2/28/2013 2:03:37 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 2/28/2013 1:59:47 PM, malcolmxy wrote:
At 2/28/2013 1:50:07 PM, FREEDO wrote:
At 2/28/2013 5:51:05 AM, Eitan_Zohar wrote:
Commie now?

Do commies support markets?

They control them, which tends to make them stronger, and strengthening is supporting, so yes...yes they do.

They control the flow of resources. A market implies that things are being traded.

You can disagree with that definition but, for me and this thread, it is assumed.

I am a Mutualist. As I support the market but disapprove of classism.
GRAND POOBAH OF DDO

fnord
ConservativeAmerican
Posts: 1,676
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2/28/2013 2:09:15 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 2/28/2013 2:00:57 PM, FREEDO wrote:
At 2/28/2013 7:25:10 AM, ConservativeAmerican wrote:
God, you are like charlesb now, with your inane drivel that is all philosophical and not logical.

The title "It's Not Government. It's Not Capitalism." implies that it is in reply to someone who wants to abolish either of these. As such, it supplies the theory against them for context but does not go into detail. This thread is about strategy. It postulates a psychological hypothesis for open discussion about the underlining causes of social institutions that are assumed to be harmful. People who disagree with the assumption are free to make productive contributions.

You cluttered up this thread that I, much like charleslb, put effort and thought into making for my pleasure of communicating with intellectuals for their constructive commentary, with your unnecessary quoting and ad hominem comment that achieved nothing and brought this discussion nothing of value. If you don't think my thread has any value to begin with, don't post in it.

Fair enough, I had no intent to troll, and I did not give you a fair chance, or even fully consider what you wrote. I am not up for a spirited debate atm, but I would enjoy debating the symptoms of our societal ills with you sometime in the future.
malcolmxy
Posts: 2,855
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2/28/2013 2:15:59 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 2/28/2013 2:01:49 PM, GeoLaureate8 wrote:
At 2/28/2013 1:59:47 PM, malcolmxy wrote:
At 2/28/2013 1:50:07 PM, FREEDO wrote:
Do commies support markets?

They control them, which tends to make them stronger, and strengthening is supporting, so yes...yes they do.

Roflcopter

Pop Quiz - which major economic power has most effectively weathered the current economic downturn and been able to sustain GDP growth in the 8-10% range as opposed to negative GDP growth?

Is it:

A. USA
B. Germany
C. China
D. Canada
E. Russia
F. None of the above

EXTRA CREDIT - build a gof*ckyourselfcopter and prove it flight worthy.
War is over, if you want it.

Meet Dr. Stupid and his assistants - http://www.debate.org...
malcolmxy
Posts: 2,855
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2/28/2013 2:27:49 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 2/28/2013 2:15:59 PM, malcolmxy wrote:
At 2/28/2013 2:01:49 PM, GeoLaureate8 wrote:
At 2/28/2013 1:59:47 PM, malcolmxy wrote:
At 2/28/2013 1:50:07 PM, FREEDO wrote:
Do commies support markets?

They control them, which tends to make them stronger, and strengthening is supporting, so yes...yes they do.

Roflcopter

Pop Quiz - which major economic power has most effectively weathered the current economic downturn and been able to sustain GDP growth in the 8-10% range as opposed to negative GDP growth?

Is it:

A. USA
B. Germany
C. China
D. Canada
E. Russia
F. None of the above

EXTRA CREDIT - build a gof*ckyourselfcopter and prove it flight worthy.

Has no one completed the quiz or are you all working hard on your GFY Whirly Birds?

I'm gonna be banging the principal in the faculty lounge, so just leave your quizzes on top of my desk before you leave and I'll grade them after I tap Principal Carter's hot, juicy honey ham.

Good day.
War is over, if you want it.

Meet Dr. Stupid and his assistants - http://www.debate.org...
GeoLaureate8
Posts: 12,252
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2/28/2013 2:48:03 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
"The People's Republic of China was a Soviet-style centrally planned economy, without private businesses or capitalism. To propel the country towards a modern, industrialized communist society, Mao Zedong instituted the Great Leap Forward in the early 1960s, although this had decidedly mixed economic results.[254] Following Mao's death in 1976 and the consequent end of the Cultural Revolution, Deng Xiaoping and the new Chinese leadership began to reform the economy and move towards a more market-oriented mixed economy under one-party rule. Agricultural collectivization was dismantled and farmlands were privatized to increase productivity.
http://en.wikipedia.org...
"We must raise the standard of the Old, free, decentralized, and strictly limited Republic."
-- Murray Rothbard

"The worst thing that can happen to a good cause is, not to be skillfully attacked, but to be ineptly defended."
-- Frederic Bastiat
FREEDO
Posts: 21,057
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2/28/2013 2:48:41 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 2/28/2013 2:15:59 PM, malcolmxy wrote:
Pop Quiz - which major economic power has most effectively weathered the current economic downturn and been able to sustain GDP growth in the 8-10% range as opposed to negative GDP growth?

Is it:

A. USA
B. Germany
C. China
D. Canada
E. Russia
F. None of the above

EXTRA CREDIT - build a gof*ckyourselfcopter and prove it flight worthy.

No one actually believes that China is Communist.

You're free to use a different definition of Communism, but it makes no practical sense.
GRAND POOBAH OF DDO

fnord
FREEDO
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2/28/2013 2:50:10 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 2/28/2013 2:09:15 PM, ConservativeAmerican wrote:
Fair enough, I had no intent to troll, and I did not give you a fair chance, or even fully consider what you wrote. I am not up for a spirited debate atm, but I would enjoy debating the symptoms of our societal ills with you sometime in the future.

Thanks, might take that up at some point.
GRAND POOBAH OF DDO

fnord
charleslb
Posts: 4,740
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2/28/2013 4:54:57 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 2/28/2013 4:16:55 AM, FREEDO wrote:
The problem is you.

Internalizing blame for the reality of our form of life, for its ills and evils and whatnot, as you're advocating doing here, is of course something that we're conditioned to do because it helps shelter our system from responsibility, criticism, disgruntlement, and the threat of revolution. The first crucial and monumental step in the direction of transforming our society and status quo is in fact to leave off self-critical navel-gazing and to begin focusing scrutiny on and agitation against the economico-political power structure that we live under. Actually, getting people to preoccupy their minds with the sort of self-criticism that you're inadvertently promoting is an old trick of certain totalitarian regimes, a way of misdirecting our anger away from our government and ruling class and at ourselves and our neighbors. Mm-hmm, rather than falling for such misdirection let's target our anger and activism at the top and the system itself. At any rate, assigning accountability to individuals is in the same vein as the old Great Man of History theory, i.e. it simplistically concentrates on lone persons. It abjectly fails to appreciate the system's fundamental role in crafting our reality, and the fact that our socially crafted reality crafts our consciousness for apathy and passivity, rendering us the kind of patsies who accept inequality and injustice and then hold ourselves to be at fault. Let's try to think in a bit more critical and sophisticated fashion, shall we.
Yo, all of my subliterate conservative criticasters who find perusing and processing the sesquipedalian verbiage of my posts to be such a bothersome brain-taxing chore, I have a new nickname for you. Henceforth you shall be known as Pooh Bears. No, not for the obvious apt reasons, i.e., not because you're full of pooh, and not because of your ursine irritability. Rather, you put me in mind of an A.A. Milne quote, "I am a Bear of Very Little Brain, and long words bother me". Love ya, Pooh Bears.
FREEDO
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2/28/2013 8:43:13 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 2/28/2013 4:54:57 PM, charleslb wrote:
Internalizing blame for the reality of our form of life, for its ills and evils and whatnot, as you're advocating doing here, is of course something that we're conditioned to do because it helps shelter our system from responsibility, criticism, disgruntlement, and the threat of revolution. The first crucial and monumental step in the direction of transforming our society and status quo is in fact to leave off self-critical navel-gazing and to begin focusing scrutiny on and agitation against the economico-political power structure that we live under. Actually, getting people to preoccupy their minds with the sort of self-criticism that you're inadvertently promoting is an old trick of certain totalitarian regimes, a way of misdirecting our anger away from our government and ruling class and at ourselves and our neighbors. Mm-hmm, rather than falling for such misdirection let's target our anger and activism at the top and the system itself. At any rate, assigning accountability to individuals is in the same vein as the old Great Man of History theory, i.e. it simplistically concentrates on lone persons. It abjectly fails to appreciate the system's fundamental role in crafting our reality, and the fact that our socially crafted reality crafts our consciousness for apathy and passivity, rendering us the kind of patsies who accept inequality and injustice and then hold ourselves to be at fault. Let's try to think in a bit more critical and sophisticated fashion, shall we.

This is a language issue. My post doesn't "internalize blame". It makes a contrast between people and institutions. I'm simply asserting the ignored obvious. That people are to blame. To say that institutions are to blame is simply not getting to the root of the issue.

However, it's still clear that we have two entirely different strategies. And I think that all evidence seems to suggest that my strategies are more effective.
GRAND POOBAH OF DDO

fnord
malcolmxy
Posts: 2,855
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2/28/2013 10:55:43 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 2/28/2013 2:48:41 PM, FREEDO wrote:
At 2/28/2013 2:15:59 PM, malcolmxy wrote:
Pop Quiz - which major economic power has most effectively weathered the current economic downturn and been able to sustain GDP growth in the 8-10% range as opposed to negative GDP growth?

Is it:

A. USA
B. Germany
C. China
D. Canada
E. Russia
F. None of the above

EXTRA CREDIT - build a gof*ckyourselfcopter and prove it flight worthy.

No one actually believes that China is Communist.

You're free to use a different definition of Communism, but it makes no practical sense.

Quit being so pedestrian. No one is communist and no one is capitalist. Everyone is some sort of mix of the two. China's economy is probably best described as a command economy. Still, control by the central government is heavy handed and the central bank is also government controlled.

They're not communist, but they're a hell of a lot closer to communist than they are to a free market, and the tight government control of their economy has kept the country stable and growing while the rest of the world has seen their economies shrink.

Call it what you want, but it's definitely not Lazze Faire, and it seems to be working better than anything else out there right now.
War is over, if you want it.

Meet Dr. Stupid and his assistants - http://www.debate.org...
wrichcirw
Posts: 11,196
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3/1/2013 12:04:08 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 2/28/2013 4:16:55 AM, FREEDO wrote:
The problem is you.

I read your posts about strategy and etc, and find this intriguing.

So, if the problem lies with the individual, and people are in perpetual war with each other, then what we are seeing and experiencing are the victors of this perpetual conflict. By this logic, capitalism>communism, democracy>totalitarianism, anything>anarchy, etc etc...

This doesn't preclude that something>capitalism, or that something>statism. Only that currently, it's the best we got. They are the best systems that have been and are victorious over competing models.
At 8/9/2013 9:41:24 AM, wrichcirw wrote:
If you are civil with me, I will be civil to you. If you decide to bring unreasonable animosity to bear in a reasonable discussion, then what would you expect other than to get flustered?
charleslb
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3/1/2013 1:51:14 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 2/28/2013 8:43:13 PM, FREEDO wrote:
At 2/28/2013 4:54:57 PM, charleslb wrote:
Internalizing blame for the reality of our form of life, for its ills and evils and whatnot, as you're advocating doing here, is of course something that we're conditioned to do because it helps shelter our system from responsibility, criticism, disgruntlement, and the threat of revolution. The first crucial and monumental step in the direction of transforming our society and status quo is in fact to leave off self-critical navel-gazing and to begin focusing scrutiny on and agitation against the economico-political power structure that we live under. Actually, getting people to preoccupy their minds with the sort of self-criticism that you're inadvertently promoting is an old trick of certain totalitarian regimes, a way of misdirecting our anger away from our government and ruling class and at ourselves and our neighbors. Mm-hmm, rather than falling for such misdirection let's target our anger and activism at the top and the system itself. At any rate, assigning accountability to individuals is in the same vein as the old Great Man of History theory, i.e. it simplistically concentrates on lone persons. It abjectly fails to appreciate the system's fundamental role in crafting our reality, and the fact that our socially crafted reality crafts our consciousness for apathy and passivity, rendering us the kind of patsies who accept inequality and injustice and then hold ourselves to be at fault. Let's try to think in a bit more critical and sophisticated fashion, shall we.

This is a language issue. My post doesn't "internalize blame". It makes a contrast between people and institutions. I'm simply asserting the ignored obvious. That people are to blame. To say that institutions are to blame is simply not getting to the root of the issue.

However, it's still clear that we have two entirely different strategies. And I think that all evidence seems to suggest that my strategies are more effective.

Well, dear FREEDO, I still maintain that you're simply being too judgmentally tough on the largely disempowered little guy (and gal). You're certainly overestimating his degree of responsibility/culpability for the leadership that his society ends up with. Historically the common people have not really been all that much to blame for placing fuhrers, bad presidents, and dictatorial parties in power. Herr Hitler, for instance, didn't actually ascend to power as a result of winning the popular vote. He obtained the office of chancellor by working the system, by successfully engaging in backroom politicking, and whatnot. Nor did we initially bring on ourselves the disastrous presidency of George W. Bush by democratically, in any genuine sense of the word, electing him to his first term. Recall that he in point of fact would have lost to Gore if the popular vote had determined the outcome of the election. And certainly the Bolsheviks didn't seek the consent of the Russian people before installing themselves in power in the name of a proletariat that they proceeded to oppress by imposing of a counterfeit version of communism. And of course once a Bush or Hitler or Bolshevik party is in a position of perceived legitimacy, authority, and power it's rather difficult for the common people to fight city hall, as the expression goes. It can be done, but only through subversive struggle, which people are socioculturally conditioned to frown upon, not to engage in. At any rate, "new structures of national life" are only "erected upon blood, sweat, and tears", to quote Churchill. When you've sacrificed some of your own blood, sweat, and tears in the cause of erecting some new social and economic structures, well, then you'll have the credibility to pontificate judgmentally about your fellow little guy's ownership of blame for his society's shortcomings and sins.
Yo, all of my subliterate conservative criticasters who find perusing and processing the sesquipedalian verbiage of my posts to be such a bothersome brain-taxing chore, I have a new nickname for you. Henceforth you shall be known as Pooh Bears. No, not for the obvious apt reasons, i.e., not because you're full of pooh, and not because of your ursine irritability. Rather, you put me in mind of an A.A. Milne quote, "I am a Bear of Very Little Brain, and long words bother me". Love ya, Pooh Bears.
FREEDO
Posts: 21,057
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3/1/2013 3:23:02 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 3/1/2013 12:04:08 AM, wrichcirw wrote:
At 2/28/2013 4:16:55 AM, FREEDO wrote:
The problem is you.

I read your posts about strategy and etc, and find this intriguing.

So, if the problem lies with the individual, and people are in perpetual war with each other, then what we are seeing and experiencing are the victors of this perpetual conflict. By this logic, capitalism>communism, democracy>totalitarianism, anything>anarchy, etc etc...

This doesn't preclude that something>capitalism, or that something>statism. Only that currently, it's the best we got. They are the best systems that have been and are victorious over competing models.

*sigh*
GRAND POOBAH OF DDO

fnord
FREEDO
Posts: 21,057
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3/1/2013 3:39:05 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 3/1/2013 1:51:14 AM, charleslb wrote:

It is definitely hard to accept that people are at fault when we can see that any individual who tries to resist is going to be persecuted. But, as I said, there is a language issue here you're having with my argument. It's about consensus. Ideas are like viruses. We need to look at the collective actions of people. When we do this, we see that people put themselves in their own cages.

If no one cooperated with the government, it would simply cease to exist. Weapons are real. But they are controlled by individuals, not some sentient monster called "The State". The State is only an idea. Just as Capitalism is.
GRAND POOBAH OF DDO

fnord
Noumena
Posts: 6,047
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3/1/2013 6:44:39 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 3/1/2013 12:04:08 AM, wrichcirw wrote:
At 2/28/2013 4:16:55 AM, FREEDO wrote:
The problem is you.

I read your posts about strategy and etc, and find this intriguing.

So, if the problem lies with the individual, and people are in perpetual war with each other, then what we are seeing and experiencing are the victors of this perpetual conflict. By this logic, capitalism>communism, democracy>totalitarianism, anything>anarchy, etc etc...

This doesn't preclude that something>capitalism, or that something>statism. Only that currently, it's the best we got. They are the best systems that have been and are victorious over competing models.

The erronous equivocation of actuality with normative superiority hurts my eyes.
: At 5/13/2014 7:05:20 PM, Crescendo wrote:
: The difference is that the gay movement is currently pushing their will on Churches, as shown in the link to gay marriage in Denmark. Meanwhile, the Inquisition ended several centuries ago.
wrichcirw
Posts: 11,196
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3/1/2013 10:27:41 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 3/1/2013 6:44:39 AM, Noumena wrote:
At 3/1/2013 12:04:08 AM, wrichcirw wrote:
At 2/28/2013 4:16:55 AM, FREEDO wrote:
The problem is you.

I read your posts about strategy and etc, and find this intriguing.

So, if the problem lies with the individual, and people are in perpetual war with each other, then what we are seeing and experiencing are the victors of this perpetual conflict. By this logic, capitalism>communism, democracy>totalitarianism, anything>anarchy, etc etc...

This doesn't preclude that something>capitalism, or that something>statism. Only that currently, it's the best we got. They are the best systems that have been and are victorious over competing models.

The erronous equivocation of actuality with normative superiority hurts my eyes.

There is no equivocation, and no error.

What you view as "normative superiority" assumes a set of conditions not found in reality.
At 8/9/2013 9:41:24 AM, wrichcirw wrote:
If you are civil with me, I will be civil to you. If you decide to bring unreasonable animosity to bear in a reasonable discussion, then what would you expect other than to get flustered?
wrichcirw
Posts: 11,196
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3/1/2013 10:29:13 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 3/1/2013 10:27:41 AM, wrichcirw wrote:
At 3/1/2013 6:44:39 AM, Noumena wrote:
At 3/1/2013 12:04:08 AM, wrichcirw wrote:
At 2/28/2013 4:16:55 AM, FREEDO wrote:
The problem is you.

I read your posts about strategy and etc, and find this intriguing.

So, if the problem lies with the individual, and people are in perpetual war with each other, then what we are seeing and experiencing are the victors of this perpetual conflict. By this logic, capitalism>communism, democracy>totalitarianism, anything>anarchy, etc etc...

This doesn't preclude that something>capitalism, or that something>statism. Only that currently, it's the best we got. They are the best systems that have been and are victorious over competing models.

The erronous equivocation of actuality with normative superiority hurts my eyes.

There is no equivocation, and no error.

What you view as "normative superiority" assumes a set of conditions not found in reality.

Also, I was specific in limiting my comment to the past and the present. Reality may change in the future, which may allow for a change in the victors of the various competing models.
At 8/9/2013 9:41:24 AM, wrichcirw wrote:
If you are civil with me, I will be civil to you. If you decide to bring unreasonable animosity to bear in a reasonable discussion, then what would you expect other than to get flustered?
malcolmxy
Posts: 2,855
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3/1/2013 12:11:13 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 3/1/2013 3:39:05 AM, FREEDO wrote:
At 3/1/2013 1:51:14 AM, charleslb wrote:

It is definitely hard to accept that people are at fault when we can see that any individual who tries to resist is going to be persecuted. But, as I said, there is a language issue here you're having with my argument. It's about consensus. Ideas are like viruses. We need to look at the collective actions of people. When we do this, we see that people put themselves in their own cages.

If no one cooperated with the government, it would simply cease to exist. Weapons are real. But they are controlled by individuals, not some sentient monster called "The State". The State is only an idea. Just as Capitalism is.

The state doesn't go down without a fight, and Capitalism/Microeconomics wasn't the idea of Adam Smith. All he did was discover and name it.

Capitalism is an idea like Cleveland is an idea.
War is over, if you want it.

Meet Dr. Stupid and his assistants - http://www.debate.org...
Wallstreetatheist
Posts: 7,132
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3/1/2013 12:29:56 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
Do people behave the same way under every economic system, under every institution, and under every norm?
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