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Since when has the U.S. been a democracy?

Aned
Posts: 53
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3/2/2013 4:00:45 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
Just out of curiosity, since what year or era do you think the U.S. has been a democratic country?
tmar19652
Posts: 727
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3/2/2013 4:46:43 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 3/2/2013 4:00:45 PM, Aned wrote:
Just out of curiosity, since what year or era do you think the U.S. has been a democratic country?

It hasn't started yet.
"Politics is supposed to be the second-oldest profession. I have come to realize that it bears a very close resemblance to the first." -Ronald Reagan

"The notion of political correctness declares certain topics, certain ex<x>pressions even certain gestures off-limits. What began as a crusade for civility has soured into a cause of conflict and even censorship." -George H.W. Bush
lewis20
Posts: 5,093
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3/2/2013 4:58:08 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
Since FDR threatened to stack the courts and passed the new deal
"If you are a racist I will attack you with the north"- Abraham Lincoln

"Do not wear clothing woven of two kinds of material" - Leviticus 19 19

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rogue
Posts: 2,325
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3/2/2013 5:31:33 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 3/2/2013 4:00:45 PM, Aned wrote:
Just out of curiosity, since what year or era do you think the U.S. has been a democratic country?

It isn't nor has it ever been a democracy. We are a republic.
EvanK
Posts: 599
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3/2/2013 5:37:39 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 3/2/2013 5:31:33 PM, rogue wrote:
At 3/2/2013 4:00:45 PM, Aned wrote:
Just out of curiosity, since what year or era do you think the U.S. has been a democratic country?

It isn't nor has it ever been a democracy. We are a republic.
The problem with socialism is that, sooner or later, you run out of people's money."_Margaret Thatcher

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Ore_Ele
Posts: 25,980
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3/2/2013 5:37:53 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 3/2/2013 5:31:33 PM, rogue wrote:
At 3/2/2013 4:00:45 PM, Aned wrote:
Just out of curiosity, since what year or era do you think the U.S. has been a democratic country?

It isn't nor has it ever been a democracy. We are a republic.

It is a democratic republic as our representatives are democratically elected. Supposedly limited by a constitution, though that has been ignored for decades.
"Wanting Red Rhino Pill to have gender"
ConservativeAmerican
Posts: 1,676
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3/2/2013 5:38:51 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 3/2/2013 4:00:45 PM, Aned wrote:
Just out of curiosity, since what year or era do you think the U.S. has been a democratic country?

We are a constitutional republic and have always been since the founding of our country.
Polaris
Posts: 1,120
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3/2/2013 7:43:13 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 3/2/2013 5:31:33 PM, rogue wrote:
At 3/2/2013 4:00:45 PM, Aned wrote:
Just out of curiosity, since what year or era do you think the U.S. has been a democratic country?

It isn't nor has it ever been a democracy. We are a republic.

The two aren't mutually exclusive. The United States, is officially a Democratic-Republic.
MichaelGonzales
Posts: 211
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3/2/2013 11:11:22 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 3/2/2013 7:43:13 PM, Polaris wrote:
At 3/2/2013 5:31:33 PM, rogue wrote:
At 3/2/2013 4:00:45 PM, Aned wrote:
Just out of curiosity, since what year or era do you think the U.S. has been a democratic country?

It isn't nor has it ever been a democracy. We are a republic.

The two aren't mutually exclusive. The United States, is officially a Democratic-Republic.

This.
OberHerr
Posts: 13,062
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3/2/2013 11:41:54 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 3/2/2013 7:43:13 PM, Polaris wrote:
At 3/2/2013 5:31:33 PM, rogue wrote:
At 3/2/2013 4:00:45 PM, Aned wrote:
Just out of curiosity, since what year or era do you think the U.S. has been a democratic country?

It isn't nor has it ever been a democracy. We are a republic.

The two aren't mutually exclusive. The United States, is officially a Democratic-Republic.

http://en.wikipedia.org...

Wikipedia disagrees. I think it knows more than you.
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Polaris
Posts: 1,120
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3/4/2013 9:18:54 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 3/2/2013 11:41:54 PM, OberHerr wrote:
At 3/2/2013 7:43:13 PM, Polaris wrote:
At 3/2/2013 5:31:33 PM, rogue wrote:
At 3/2/2013 4:00:45 PM, Aned wrote:
Just out of curiosity, since what year or era do you think the U.S. has been a democratic country?

It isn't nor has it ever been a democracy. We are a republic.

The two aren't mutually exclusive. The United States, is officially a Democratic-Republic.

http://en.wikipedia.org...

Wikipedia disagrees. I think it knows more than you.

Please point to which part you feel disagrees with what I have said.

A Constitutional Republic is not mutually exclusive with a Democratic Republic. A republic is any nation where land is privately owned by individuals (Basically any non-monarchy), and a Democracy is any system of government where citizens can vote on public issues, occurs. Both of these are true of the United States.
GeoLaureate8
Posts: 12,252
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3/4/2013 9:55:05 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 3/2/2013 5:37:53 PM, Ore_Ele wrote:
It is a democratic republic as our representatives are democratically elected. Supposedly limited by a constitution, though that has been ignored for decades.

Just goes to show that democracy is anti-Constitution.

We're a Constitutional Republic, not a Democratic Republic.
"We must raise the standard of the Old, free, decentralized, and strictly limited Republic."
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Double_R
Posts: 4,886
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3/4/2013 11:28:13 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
Representative democracy is a variety of democracy founded on the principle of elected people representing a group of people, as opposed to direct democracy.[1] All modern Western style democracies are various types of representative democracies, for example the United Kingdom is a constitutional monarchy and Poland is a parliamentary republic.
http://en.wikipedia.org...

Constitutional republic " a republic form of government where powers are limited by law or a formal constitution, and chosen by a vote amongst at least some sections of the populace. Republics that exclude sections of the populace from participation will typically claim to represent all citizens (by defining people without the vote as "non-citizens").

Democratic republic " a republic form of government where the country is considered a "public matter" (Latin: res publica), not a private concern or property of rulers, and where offices of states are subsequently, directly or indirectly, elected or appointed - rather than inherited - where all eligible citizens have an equal say in the local and national decisions that affect their lives.

Federal republic " a federal union of states or provinces with a republican form of government. Examples include Argentina, Austria, Brazil, Germany, India, Russia, the United States, and Switzerland.

http://en.wikipedia.org...

They all sound like the US to me.
Polaris
Posts: 1,120
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3/4/2013 2:55:34 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 3/4/2013 9:55:05 AM, GeoLaureate8 wrote:
We're a Constitutional Republic, not a Democratic Republic.

We're both.
ConservativeAmerican
Posts: 1,676
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3/4/2013 2:57:23 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 3/2/2013 7:43:13 PM, Polaris wrote:
At 3/2/2013 5:31:33 PM, rogue wrote:
At 3/2/2013 4:00:45 PM, Aned wrote:
Just out of curiosity, since what year or era do you think the U.S. has been a democratic country?

It isn't nor has it ever been a democracy. We are a republic.

The two aren't mutually exclusive. The United States, is officially a Democratic-Republic.

Sorry to burst your bubble, we're not. We are officially a Federal Two-Party Constitutional Republic.

http://en.wikipedia.org...
lewis20
Posts: 5,093
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3/4/2013 3:01:37 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
Ya how many officials were supposed to actually be democratically elected? The Senate was to be picked by the states, president by the electoral college and only congress directly elected by the populace.
I could have messed that up.
"If you are a racist I will attack you with the north"- Abraham Lincoln

"Do not wear clothing woven of two kinds of material" - Leviticus 19 19

"War is a racket" - Smedley Butler
Polaris
Posts: 1,120
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3/4/2013 3:02:19 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
I have to wonder if this denial that the U.S. is a democracy is some kind of misguided political attempt to distance democrats from our legal-historical framework?
Polaris
Posts: 1,120
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3/4/2013 3:10:28 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 3/4/2013 2:57:23 PM, ConservativeAmerican wrote:
At 3/2/2013 7:43:13 PM, Polaris wrote:
At 3/2/2013 5:31:33 PM, rogue wrote:
At 3/2/2013 4:00:45 PM, Aned wrote:
Just out of curiosity, since what year or era do you think the U.S. has been a democratic country?

It isn't nor has it ever been a democracy. We are a republic.

The two aren't mutually exclusive. The United States, is officially a Democratic-Republic.

Sorry to burst your bubble, we're not. We are officially a Federal Two-Party Constitutional Republic.

http://en.wikipedia.org...

Once again, you say this as if the two were mutually exclusive. They are not. Being a Constitutional Republic, does not preclude us from also being a Democratic Republic. You offer no refutation of this. We vote on public issues, both directly and indirectly, and therefore we are a democracy. To deny this is utterly inane.
OberHerr
Posts: 13,062
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3/5/2013 10:37:23 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 3/4/2013 3:02:19 PM, Polaris wrote:
I have to wonder if this denial that the U.S. is a democracy is some kind of misguided political attempt to distance democrats from our legal-historical framework?

No, I'm simply pointing out your error.
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THEVIRUS
Posts: 1,321
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3/5/2013 12:39:19 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 3/2/2013 4:46:43 PM, tmar19652 wrote:
At 3/2/2013 4:00:45 PM, Aned wrote:
Just out of curiosity, since what year or era do you think the U.S. has been a democratic country?

It hasn't started yet.

) Tru Dat
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"And the hits just keep on comin'." -A Few Good Men
Double_R
Posts: 4,886
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3/6/2013 11:44:37 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
This is one of those topics that always amuses me. Whether America is a democracy or not is a matter of fact, not philosophy. What is it that makes a person believe they know more then literally the rest of the country without even doing thorough research on it? I guess some people are really that desperate for something to debate.
DanT
Posts: 5,693
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3/6/2013 12:19:41 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 3/2/2013 4:00:45 PM, Aned wrote:
Just out of curiosity, since what year or era do you think the U.S. has been a democratic country?

We are not a democracy we are a republic, because the government is limited by the constitution.

However, one can argue that we became a indirect democracy on April 8, 1913, provided the elected officials ignore the constitutional restrictions.
"Chemical weapons are no different than any other types of weapons."~Lordknukle
DanT
Posts: 5,693
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3/6/2013 12:43:04 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
We are a Federation of Republics.

A Republic AKA a Free State AKA a Commonwealth is a form of government where the people have sovereignty over the state, and the state is subject to rule of law.

The term Republic comes from the latin Res Publica, meaning "the Public thing".
The term Commonwealth, comes from the term "Commonweal" meaning the "common good". "Common" is a 15th century term meaning "public", and "Weal" is a 15th century term meaning "Prosperity".
The term "Free State" comes from the Act declaring England to be a Commonwealth, which declared "That the People of England and of all the Dominions and Territoryes thereunto belonging are and shall be and are hereby constituted, made, established, and confirmed to be a Commonwealth and free State And shall from henceforth be Governed as a Commonwealth and Free State by the supreame Authoritie of this Nation, the Representatives of the People in Parliam[ent] and by such as they shall appoint and constitute as Officers and Ministers under them for the good of the People and that without any King or House of Lords."

The key difference between a republic and a democracy is that a Republic is subject to rule of law, whereas a democracy has no restrictions. Appointments of Senators, and electoral colleges are anti-Democratic, but not necessarily anti-republican.
"Chemical weapons are no different than any other types of weapons."~Lordknukle
logicrules
Posts: 1,721
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3/7/2013 8:21:53 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 3/6/2013 12:43:04 PM, DanT wrote:
We are a Federation of Republics.

A Republic AKA a Free State AKA a Commonwealth is a form of government where the people have sovereignty over the state, and the state is subject to rule of law.

The term Republic comes from the latin Res Publica, meaning "the Public thing".
The term Commonwealth, comes from the term "Commonweal" meaning the "common good". "Common" is a 15th century term meaning "public", and "Weal" is a 15th century term meaning "Prosperity".
The term "Free State" comes from the Act declaring England to be a Commonwealth, which declared "That the People of England and of all the Dominions and Territoryes thereunto belonging are and shall be and are hereby constituted, made, established, and confirmed to be a Commonwealth and free State And shall from henceforth be Governed as a Commonwealth and Free State by the supreame Authoritie of this Nation, the Representatives of the People in Parliam[ent] and by such as they shall appoint and constitute as Officers and Ministers under them for the good of the People and that without any King or House of Lords."

The key difference between a republic and a democracy is that a Republic is subject to rule of law, whereas a democracy has no restrictions. Appointments of Senators, and electoral colleges are anti-Democratic, but not necessarily anti-republican.

A republic, ie Res Publica, is governed by those chosen to govern (Law is secondary). A democracy, Athens, is governed by all. eg...Democracies and Republics have Law and laws, the issue is how they become same.

The US is a Democratic (adjective) Republic (noun).
DanT
Posts: 5,693
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3/7/2013 10:26:51 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 3/7/2013 8:21:53 AM, logicrules wrote:
At 3/6/2013 12:43:04 PM, DanT wrote:
We are a Federation of Republics.

A Republic AKA a Free State AKA a Commonwealth is a form of government where the people have sovereignty over the state, and the state is subject to rule of law.

The term Republic comes from the latin Res Publica, meaning "the Public thing".
The term Commonwealth, comes from the term "Commonweal" meaning the "common good". "Common" is a 15th century term meaning "public", and "Weal" is a 15th century term meaning "Prosperity".
The term "Free State" comes from the Act declaring England to be a Commonwealth, which declared "That the People of England and of all the Dominions and Territoryes thereunto belonging are and shall be and are hereby constituted, made, established, and confirmed to be a Commonwealth and free State And shall from henceforth be Governed as a Commonwealth and Free State by the supreame Authoritie of this Nation, the Representatives of the People in Parliam[ent] and by such as they shall appoint and constitute as Officers and Ministers under them for the good of the People and that without any King or House of Lords."

The key difference between a republic and a democracy is that a Republic is subject to rule of law, whereas a democracy has no restrictions. Appointments of Senators, and electoral colleges are anti-Democratic, but not necessarily anti-republican.

A republic, ie Res Publica, is governed by those chosen to govern (Law is secondary). A democracy, Athens, is governed by all. eg...Democracies and Republics have Law and laws, the issue is how they become same.

No a democracy can have represenitives too. In a democracy legislation is limited by majority rule, and in a republic it is limited by rule of law.
Democrats (advocates of democracies) tend to favor referendums, direct elections, and egalitarian voting rights.
Republicans (advocates of republics) tend to favor a dominant elected legislature, electoral colleges, and voting qualifications.
Democracies serve the majority through majority rule.
Republics serve the entire community through rule of law.
The US is a Democratic (adjective) Republic (noun).

Democracy (noun) Republican (adjective)
"Chemical weapons are no different than any other types of weapons."~Lordknukle
DanT
Posts: 5,693
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3/7/2013 10:36:59 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 3/7/2013 8:21:53 AM, logicrules wrote:
At 3/6/2013 12:43:04 PM, DanT wrote:
We are a Federation of Republics.

A Republic AKA a Free State AKA a Commonwealth is a form of government where the people have sovereignty over the state, and the state is subject to rule of law.

The term Republic comes from the latin Res Publica, meaning "the Public thing".
The term Commonwealth, comes from the term "Commonweal" meaning the "common good". "Common" is a 15th century term meaning "public", and "Weal" is a 15th century term meaning "Prosperity".
The term "Free State" comes from the Act declaring England to be a Commonwealth, which declared "That the People of England and of all the Dominions and Territoryes thereunto belonging are and shall be and are hereby constituted, made, established, and confirmed to be a Commonwealth and free State And shall from henceforth be Governed as a Commonwealth and Free State by the supreame Authoritie of this Nation, the Representatives of the People in Parliam[ent] and by such as they shall appoint and constitute as Officers and Ministers under them for the good of the People and that without any King or House of Lords."

The key difference between a republic and a democracy is that a Republic is subject to rule of law, whereas a democracy has no restrictions. Appointments of Senators, and electoral colleges are anti-Democratic, but not necessarily anti-republican.


The US is a Democratic (adjective) Republic (noun).
Sorry for the poor response, i just woke up, so im half asleep. Spent the whole night filling out job applications,

The us is not a "democratic republic". We are a federation of Republics. Congress may be seen as "democratic republican", but the other branches of government are purely republican. (The Supreme Court is arguably oligarchal).
The states are still republican.
"Chemical weapons are no different than any other types of weapons."~Lordknukle
logicrules
Posts: 1,721
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3/7/2013 11:42:04 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 3/7/2013 10:26:51 AM, DanT wrote:
At 3/7/2013 8:21:53 AM, logicrules wrote:
At 3/6/2013 12:43:04 PM, DanT wrote:
We are a Federation of Republics.

A Republic AKA a Free State AKA a Commonwealth is a form of government where the people have sovereignty over the state, and the state is subject to rule of law.

The term Republic comes from the latin Res Publica, meaning "the Public thing".
The term Commonwealth, comes from the term "Commonweal" meaning the "common good". "Common" is a 15th century term meaning "public", and "Weal" is a 15th century term meaning "Prosperity".
The term "Free State" comes from the Act declaring England to be a Commonwealth, which declared "That the People of England and of all the Dominions and Territoryes thereunto belonging are and shall be and are hereby constituted, made, established, and confirmed to be a Commonwealth and free State And shall from henceforth be Governed as a Commonwealth and Free State by the supreame Authoritie of this Nation, the Representatives of the People in Parliam[ent] and by such as they shall appoint and constitute as Officers and Ministers under them for the good of the People and that without any King or House of Lords."

The key difference between a republic and a democracy is that a Republic is subject to rule of law, whereas a democracy has no restrictions. Appointments of Senators, and electoral colleges are anti-Democratic, but not necessarily anti-republican.

A republic, ie Res Publica, is governed by those chosen to govern (Law is secondary). A democracy, Athens, is governed by all. eg...Democracies and Republics have Law and laws, the issue is how they become same.

No a democracy can have represenitives too. In a democracy legislation is limited by majority rule, and in a republic it is limited by rule of law.
Democrats (advocates of democracies) tend to favor referendums, direct elections, and egalitarian voting rights.
Republicans (advocates of republics) tend to favor a dominant elected legislature, electoral colleges, and voting qualifications.
Democracies serve the majority through majority rule.
Republics serve the entire community through rule of law.
The US is a Democratic (adjective) Republic (noun).

Democracy (noun) Republican (adjective)

haha....there you go again. adjective v noun. Modifier v Subject A republic may be democratic, but a democracy is never republican. The USA was founded as a republic, now ....not so much.
DanT
Posts: 5,693
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3/7/2013 5:33:09 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 3/7/2013 11:42:04 AM, logicrules wrote:
At 3/7/2013 10:26:51 AM, DanT wrote:
At 3/7/2013 8:21:53 AM, logicrules wrote:
At 3/6/2013 12:43:04 PM, DanT wrote:
We are a Federation of Republics.

A Republic AKA a Free State AKA a Commonwealth is a form of government where the people have sovereignty over the state, and the state is subject to rule of law.

The term Republic comes from the latin Res Publica, meaning "the Public thing".
The term Commonwealth, comes from the term "Commonweal" meaning the "common good". "Common" is a 15th century term meaning "public", and "Weal" is a 15th century term meaning "Prosperity".
The term "Free State" comes from the Act declaring England to be a Commonwealth, which declared "That the People of England and of all the Dominions and Territoryes thereunto belonging are and shall be and are hereby constituted, made, established, and confirmed to be a Commonwealth and free State And shall from henceforth be Governed as a Commonwealth and Free State by the supreame Authoritie of this Nation, the Representatives of the People in Parliam[ent] and by such as they shall appoint and constitute as Officers and Ministers under them for the good of the People and that without any King or House of Lords."

The key difference between a republic and a democracy is that a Republic is subject to rule of law, whereas a democracy has no restrictions. Appointments of Senators, and electoral colleges are anti-Democratic, but not necessarily anti-republican.

A republic, ie Res Publica, is governed by those chosen to govern (Law is secondary). A democracy, Athens, is governed by all. eg...Democracies and Republics have Law and laws, the issue is how they become same.

No a democracy can have represenitives too. In a democracy legislation is limited by majority rule, and in a republic it is limited by rule of law.
Democrats (advocates of democracies) tend to favor referendums, direct elections, and egalitarian voting rights.
Republicans (advocates of republics) tend to favor a dominant elected legislature, electoral colleges, and voting qualifications.
Democracies serve the majority through majority rule.
Republics serve the entire community through rule of law.
The US is a Democratic (adjective) Republic (noun).

Democracy (noun) Republican (adjective)

haha....there you go again. adjective v noun. Modifier v Subject A republic may be democratic, but a democracy is never republican.
As I already pointed out a democratic-republic is the middle ground between a republic and a democracy.
The constitution is very undemocratic, and although over the years it has become more democratic, it still does not qualify as a democracy or democratic republic.
A democratic-republic would have both majority rule and rule of law. We only have rule of law.

The USA was founded as a republic, now ....not so much.
We are still a republic, just with a flawed system caused by democratic reforms. The flaw in the system is that states are no longer represented.
The democratic reforms didn't make us more democratic, so much as it strengthened the federal government.
"Chemical weapons are no different than any other types of weapons."~Lordknukle
logicrules
Posts: 1,721
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3/8/2013 3:38:06 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 3/7/2013 5:33:09 PM, DanT wrote:
At 3/7/2013 11:42:04 AM, logicrules wrote:
At 3/7/2013 10:26:51 AM, DanT wrote:
At 3/7/2013 8:21:53 AM, logicrules wrote:
At 3/6/2013 12:43:04 PM, DanT wrote:
We are a Federation of Republics.

A Republic AKA a Free State AKA a Commonwealth is a form of government where the people have sovereignty over the state, and the state is subject to rule of law.

The term Republic comes from the latin Res Publica, meaning "the Public thing".
The term Commonwealth, comes from the term "Commonweal" meaning the "common good". "Common" is a 15th century term meaning "public", and "Weal" is a 15th century term meaning "Prosperity".
The term "Free State" comes from the Act declaring England to be a Commonwealth, which declared "That the People of England and of all the Dominions and Territoryes thereunto belonging are and shall be and are hereby constituted, made, established, and confirmed to be a Commonwealth and free State And shall from henceforth be Governed as a Commonwealth and Free State by the supreame Authoritie of this Nation, the Representatives of the People in Parliam[ent] and by such as they shall appoint and constitute as Officers and Ministers under them for the good of the People and that without any King or House of Lords."

The key difference between a republic and a democracy is that a Republic is subject to rule of law, whereas a democracy has no restrictions. Appointments of Senators, and electoral colleges are anti-Democratic, but not necessarily anti-republican.

A republic, ie Res Publica, is governed by those chosen to govern (Law is secondary). A democracy, Athens, is governed by all. eg...Democracies and Republics have Law and laws, the issue is how they become same.

No a democracy can have represenitives too. In a democracy legislation is limited by majority rule, and in a republic it is limited by rule of law.
Democrats (advocates of democracies) tend to favor referendums, direct elections, and egalitarian voting rights.
Republicans (advocates of republics) tend to favor a dominant elected legislature, electoral colleges, and voting qualifications.
Democracies serve the majority through majority rule.
Republics serve the entire community through rule of law.
The US is a Democratic (adjective) Republic (noun).

Democracy (noun) Republican (adjective)

haha....there you go again. adjective v noun. Modifier v Subject A republic may be democratic, but a democracy is never republican.
As I already pointed out a democratic-republic is the middle ground between a republic and a democracy.
The constitution is very undemocratic, and although over the years it has become more democratic, it still does not qualify as a democracy or democratic republic.
A democratic-republic would have both majority rule and rule of law. We only have rule of law.

The USA was founded as a republic, now ....not so much.
We are still a republic, just with a flawed system caused by democratic reforms. The flaw in the system is that states are no longer represented.
The democratic reforms didn't make us more democratic, so much as it strengthened the federal government.

You are just making stuff up. I suggest you read up on Athens and the Enlightenment's view of Rome. Space prohibits pointing out ALL you silly misconceptions but the most obvious is that you think everyone votes in a democracy, they dont. Mob rule is majority rule, similar to US politics and is ad populem a fallacy to those who voted in Athens and the early US.