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Should non-binary genders be recognized?

Jessalyn
Posts: 125
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3/18/2013 9:16:07 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
I signed this petition yesterday that aims to achieve recognition of non-binary genders on legal documents/passports/etc., and it led me to wonder if there are actually many people who are in opposition. I can't think of any reason anyone would be opposed...Ideas?

Also, if anyone cares to sign the petition, it's right here:
https://petitions.whitehouse.gov...
They are aiming for 100,000 signatures by April 2nd, and they still have about 79,000 to go. Yikes.
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malcolmxy
Posts: 2,855
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3/18/2013 10:12:55 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 3/18/2013 9:16:07 AM, Jessalyn wrote:
I signed this petition yesterday that aims to achieve recognition of non-binary genders on legal documents/passports/etc., and it led me to wonder if there are actually many people who are in opposition. I can't think of any reason anyone would be opposed...Ideas?

Also, if anyone cares to sign the petition, it's right here:
https://petitions.whitehouse.gov...
They are aiming for 100,000 signatures by April 2nd, and they still have about 79,000 to go. Yikes.

They're aiming for the same thing everyone on the White House petition site is - the White House to formally release a statement regarding the issue.

For that, 100,000 sigs are required.
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Sidewalker
Posts: 3,713
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3/18/2013 3:17:26 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
I suppose I support this, dob't see any reason to deny rights to other genders, but it doesn't feel like it's that big of an issue, strikes me as very rare for people to need this. Are thre any statistics on percentage of the population that falls outside the binary gender categories?

I presume that people who do fall in this category probably just pick one for thier passport, etc...is it that big an issue? Are you aware of people havig probelms, being disscriminated against, that sort of thing?
"It is one of the commonest of mistakes to consider that the limit of our power of perception is also the limit of all there is to perceive." " C. W. Leadbeater
tmar19652
Posts: 727
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3/18/2013 3:25:08 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 3/18/2013 9:16:07 AM, Jessalyn wrote:
I signed this petition yesterday that aims to achieve recognition of non-binary genders on legal documents/passports/etc., and it led me to wonder if there are actually many people who are in opposition. I can't think of any reason anyone would be opposed...Ideas?

Also, if anyone cares to sign the petition, it's right here:
https://petitions.whitehouse.gov...
They are aiming for 100,000 signatures by April 2nd, and they still have about 79,000 to go. Yikes.
The non-binary genders do not exist, therefore they should not be recognized.
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YYW
Posts: 36,252
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3/18/2013 4:41:26 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 3/18/2013 9:16:07 AM, Jessalyn wrote:
I signed this petition yesterday that aims to achieve recognition of non-binary genders on legal documents/passports/etc., and it led me to wonder if there are actually many people who are in opposition. I can't think of any reason anyone would be opposed...Ideas?

Also, if anyone cares to sign the petition, it's right here:
https://petitions.whitehouse.gov...
They are aiming for 100,000 signatures by April 2nd, and they still have about 79,000 to go. Yikes.

Biological sex should be legally recognized for descriptive purposes. Gender is another issue.
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drhead
Posts: 1,475
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3/18/2013 9:21:41 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
Are you talking about people who are transgender, or people who have chromosomal disorders where they end up having an extra X or Y chromosome?
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YYW
Posts: 36,252
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3/18/2013 9:23:54 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 3/18/2013 9:21:41 PM, drhead wrote:
Are you talking about people who are transgender, or people who have chromosomal disorders where they end up having an extra X or Y chromosome?

Be careful not to confuse sex and gender. Sex is what you are biologically/anatomically. Gender is what identity/role you assume.
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darkkermit
Posts: 11,204
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3/18/2013 9:50:43 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 3/18/2013 9:23:54 PM, YYW wrote:
At 3/18/2013 9:21:41 PM, drhead wrote:
Are you talking about people who are transgender, or people who have chromosomal disorders where they end up having an extra X or Y chromosome?

Be careful not to confuse sex and gender. Sex is what you are biologically/anatomically. Gender is what identity/role you assume.

Only based on modern progressive definitions of the two. None of these definitions of genders vs. sex existed decades ago.
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drhead
Posts: 1,475
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3/18/2013 9:56:59 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 3/18/2013 9:23:54 PM, YYW wrote:
At 3/18/2013 9:21:41 PM, drhead wrote:
Are you talking about people who are transgender, or people who have chromosomal disorders where they end up having an extra X or Y chromosome?

Be careful not to confuse sex and gender. Sex is what you are biologically/anatomically. Gender is what identity/role you assume.

I would still think that sex would be the main/prioritized concern for government-issued ID, since it is something that relates more closely to your physical state. I'm not sure of how common true genetic hermaphroditism is, but it would make sense to have an option for the few people who have that condition to save them the awkwardness when filling out their paperwork.
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"You reject religion... calling it a sickness, to what ends??? Are you a Homosexual??" - Dogknox
"For me, Evolution is a zombie theory. I mean imaginary cartoons and wishful thinking support it?" - Dragonfang
"There are no mental health benefits of atheism. It is devoid of rational thinking and mental protection." - Gabrian
YYW
Posts: 36,252
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3/18/2013 10:14:15 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 3/18/2013 9:56:59 PM, drhead wrote:
At 3/18/2013 9:23:54 PM, YYW wrote:
At 3/18/2013 9:21:41 PM, drhead wrote:
Are you talking about people who are transgender, or people who have chromosomal disorders where they end up having an extra X or Y chromosome?

Be careful not to confuse sex and gender. Sex is what you are biologically/anatomically. Gender is what identity/role you assume.

I would still think that sex would be the main/prioritized concern for government-issued ID, since it is something that relates more closely to your physical state.

I agree, and see no reason to recognize gender. Only sex.
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TheElderScroll
Posts: 643
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3/18/2013 11:55:57 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 3/18/2013 9:16:07 AM, Jessalyn wrote:
I signed this petition yesterday that aims to achieve recognition of non-binary genders on legal documents/passports/etc., and it led me to wonder if there are actually many people who are in opposition. I can't think of any reason anyone would be opposed...Ideas?

Also, if anyone cares to sign the petition, it's right here:
https://petitions.whitehouse.gov...
They are aiming for 100,000 signatures by April 2nd, and they still have about 79,000 to go. Yikes.

I don't believe it is a good idea. Adding additional options may appear to give preferential treatment to the group of "undefined" genders, which may in turn create a special sense of "discrimination." Besides, many "undefined genders" may not be willing to be identified as a special category because they may feel that they have been singled out.
Khaos_Mage
Posts: 23,214
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3/19/2013 12:36:37 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 3/18/2013 9:16:07 AM, Jessalyn wrote:
I signed this petition yesterday that aims to achieve recognition of non-binary genders on legal documents/passports/etc., and it led me to wonder if there are actually many people who are in opposition. I can't think of any reason anyone would be opposed...Ideas?

If I am a man, who feels like a woman, I assume this apply to me.

So, if I am a man, who feels like a woman, should I be treated like a man, woman, or other? For example, which prison should I go to? Can I go to an all-girl school, as boys would distract me? Girl or Boy Scouts? Other Scouts???

Furthermore, how is this defined, or more to the point, proven? If I am a man who, for whatever reason, is deemed fit to go to a female prison, what criteria did I meet?
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bladerunner060
Posts: 7,126
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3/19/2013 1:02:30 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 3/19/2013 12:36:37 AM, Khaos_Mage wrote:
At 3/18/2013 9:16:07 AM, Jessalyn wrote:
I signed this petition yesterday that aims to achieve recognition of non-binary genders on legal documents/passports/etc., and it led me to wonder if there are actually many people who are in opposition. I can't think of any reason anyone would be opposed...Ideas?

If I am a man, who feels like a woman, I assume this apply to me.

So, if I am a man, who feels like a woman, should I be treated like a man, woman, or other? For example, which prison should I go to? Can I go to an all-girl school, as boys would distract me? Girl or Boy Scouts? Other Scouts???

Furthermore, how is this defined, or more to the point, proven? If I am a man who, for whatever reason, is deemed fit to go to a female prison, what criteria did I meet?

I think that's what this recognition is supposed to solve, actually.

Rather than putting "Male" if you feel like you're gendered as female, or having criteria that I think you're pointing out may well be arbitrary for where the "line" is to be able to change, you can put "X" or somesuch. The technicals of jail, etc. can be sorted out, but I think it's intended to be a way for folks who don't feel like what their sex is to identify as other than their sex for gender purposes on paperwork.

I like the idea, actually, because I think there are certain situations that are simply not dealt with appropriately by the current binary system.

For example, regardless of where the line should be drawn, I'd wager most people would agree that someone who has undergone full gender reassignment surgery might want to fully identify as their new gender, including on their paperwork...yet that can cause problems. The first thing that springs to mind is crime: If there is enough DNA to determine the sex of the offender, that allows the police to rule out a great number of suspects, but has the potential of ruling out a suspect who actually does fit the genetic profile.

So a case can easily be made that folks should have to stick with the sex they were born with, but I empathize with how it must feel if you feel uncomfortable with that.

It seems like having a third option might be beneficial, to allow the person to distance themselves from what they were born as without necessarily asserting something else they weren't born as. But I wonder, as I believe other posters have, whether it might have the effect of creating a new class that can be easily discriminated against.
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Sidewalker
Posts: 3,713
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3/19/2013 7:48:53 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 3/18/2013 9:23:54 PM, YYW wrote:
At 3/18/2013 9:21:41 PM, drhead wrote:
Are you talking about people who are transgender, or people who have chromosomal disorders where they end up having an extra X or Y chromosome?

Be careful not to confuse sex and gender. Sex is what you are biologically/anatomically. Gender is what identity/role you assume.

I was thinking this was for hermaphrodites and others who might be hard to gender designate, if it is just a matter of people claiming the right to designate themselves as gender different then I think it raises more problems than it solves.

KimJim comes to mind, years ago I worked for a large computer company where there was this guy they called KimJim that was half way through the process of having a sex change operation, he was a big burly man with large breasts, perfect Annette Funicello hair and a big burly mountain man looking beard, he dressed more like a truck driver than a woman and was quite a sight to see. He looked more like a he was wearing a Halloween costume than trying to become a woman.

The company was absolutely terrified of him and his lawyer, everyone in the building had to go through special "valuing differences" training, at considerable expense they built a third restroom for him, and an entire team of attorneys got involved in his performance appraisals, etc. When the call center he worked in was closed he was the only one of 4,000 people that was not laid off. The fact that this guy didn't shave the beard had to be agenda driven, if he really just wanted to be a woman he certainly would have made a better effort to appear that way, I always thought his look was a power thing, I think he was blatantly soliciting inappropriate responses that would give him something to sue the company over.

If this non-binary gender thing is simply about allowing preference in designation then I think it will be abused and in the end, result in a more negative situation for true hermaphrodites and others that might genuinely need it. One of those well intentioned things that have the opposite effect on the people it is intended to help.
"It is one of the commonest of mistakes to consider that the limit of our power of perception is also the limit of all there is to perceive." " C. W. Leadbeater
royalpaladin
Posts: 22,357
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3/20/2013 5:29:12 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 3/18/2013 9:23:54 PM, YYW wrote:
At 3/18/2013 9:21:41 PM, drhead wrote:
Are you talking about people who are transgender, or people who have chromosomal disorders where they end up having an extra X or Y chromosome?

Be careful not to confuse sex and gender. Sex is what you are biologically/anatomically. Gender is what identity/role you assume.

Excellent answer. Some people, however, think they are the same thing, and that progressives are just defining things into existence.

1. This is an appeal to tradition logical fallacy. Quantum physics is relatively new and defines things in ways that people did not consider at one point, but that does not mean it should be rejected. We measure something on the basis of its truth value and not on the basis of its age.

2. It's very, very obvious that there are plenty of people who do not fit WASP definitions of gender. If people are inclined to fit these conceptions, gender roles would not vary from culture to culture and within cultures. On top of this, there would not be people who are inclined to reject gender roles and fit outside of them. The old classification system is just completely wrong, and some people seem to buy into it because they want to oppress women.
RoyLatham
Posts: 4,488
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3/20/2013 12:11:03 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
The only point to recognizing "non-binary genders" seems to be to obtain some sort of validation from the government. It's the secular equivalent of getting the church's blessing. It doesn't resolve any of the issues related to the selection of gender, like who gets to compete in women's sports. Seeking blessings from government is not a good idea for anyone. It's fair to worry about and insist upon equal rights under the law, but not seeking societal approval through symbolic acts of government.
queeroftheyear
Posts: 1
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6/17/2014 3:21:01 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 3/18/2013 3:17:26 PM, Sidewalker wrote:
I suppose I support this, don't see any reason to deny rights to other genders, but it doesn't feel like it's that big of an issue, strikes me as very rare for people to need this. Are there any statistics on percentage of the population that falls outside the binary gender categories?

I presume that people who do fall in this category probably just pick one for their passport, etc...is it that big an issue? Are you aware of people having problems, being discriminated against, that sort of thing?

As a nonbinary person, I think having nonbinary gender markers is important, that way I do not have to lie or force myself into a gender category that does not fit me. For many nonbinary people, labeling themselves as "male" or "female" can trigger dysphoria. While the population of nonbinary people is small, we still exist and deserve to have our genders legally recognized.
WheezySquash8
Posts: 130
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6/17/2014 6:12:18 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 3/18/2013 9:16:07 AM, Jessalyn wrote:
I signed this petition yesterday that aims to achieve recognition of non-binary genders on legal documents/passports/etc., and it led me to wonder if there are actually many people who are in opposition. I can't think of any reason anyone would be opposed...Ideas?

Also, if anyone cares to sign the petition, it's right here:
https://petitions.whitehouse.gov...
They are aiming for 100,000 signatures by April 2nd, and they still have about 79,000 to go. Yikes.

I think so.
Pacifist Since 3/12/14
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Sidewalker
Posts: 3,713
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6/17/2014 6:29:07 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 6/17/2014 3:21:01 PM, queeroftheyear wrote:
At 3/18/2013 3:17:26 PM, Sidewalker wrote:
I suppose I support this, don't see any reason to deny rights to other genders, but it doesn't feel like it's that big of an issue, strikes me as very rare for people to need this. Are there any statistics on percentage of the population that falls outside the binary gender categories?

I presume that people who do fall in this category probably just pick one for their passport, etc...is it that big an issue? Are you aware of people having problems, being discriminated against, that sort of thing?

As a nonbinary person, I think having nonbinary gender markers is important, that way I do not have to lie or force myself into a gender category that does not fit me. For many nonbinary people, labeling themselves as "male" or "female" can trigger dysphoria. While the population of nonbinary people is small, we still exist and deserve to have our genders legally recognized.

OK, and how would you have it "legally recognized", male, female, and other on a passport application, something like that?

And how many non-binary genders are there? Does "other" suffice, or would we need to be more specific, maybe a write in?
"It is one of the commonest of mistakes to consider that the limit of our power of perception is also the limit of all there is to perceive." " C. W. Leadbeater