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Fascism is not right wing

Lordknukle
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3/25/2013 1:27:08 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
There's this ridiculous notion that fascism is somehow the product of right-wing authoritarian ideology, which is just plainly idiotic.

Fascism, as developed firstly by Mussolini, was inherently an economically socialist ideology. The goals of the Fasci Italiani di Combattimento (from which the National Fascist Party was based upon) were to create a minimum wage, end the draft, "seizure of all goods belonging to religious congregations and the abolition of episcopal revenues," nationalization of militarily industries, and among other economically left-wing things. The real difference between fascism and socialism is that fascism was nationalistic, while socialism (at that time) was internationalist. When Mussolini went against the notion of "Workers of THE WORLD, unite," he was immediately distanced from the international socialists, who prompted to call him fascist- similarly to Stalin's vitriol towards "right-wing socialists" in Soviet Russia. Instead of workers of all world uniting, he was in favour of workers from similar backgrounds in a nation uniting.

This distinction of nationalism- instead of internationalism- can at best make him more or less authoritarian (dependent on how you look at it). However, economically, there is no evidence to support that Mussolini was in fact right-wing. In fact, he was admired by Lenin, his father read him Das Kapital when he was a boy, he was the leader of the Italian Socialist Party, and his economic ideas emulated Lenin's.

Mussolini was also an ardent atheist who sought to replace traditional religion with a "religion of the State," and was influenced by Georges Sorel.

Definitely not a right-wing dude.
"Easy is the descent to Avernus, for the door to the Underworld lies upon both day and night. But to retrace your steps and return to the breezes above- that's the task, that's the toil."
jm_notguilty
Posts: 683
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3/25/2013 3:05:15 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
It's how society views it and how the mainstream civilization defines it. Screw what Mussolini and his party's ideological intentions, what matters is the consequences of their intentions.

http://en.wikipedia.org...
http://en.wikipedia.org...
http://en.wikipedia.org...

As you can see from the differences of the accurately-sourced Wikipedia articles, Fascism considered by general consensus as right winged since it is an extremist ideology mainly focusing on nationalism and authoritarianism. And that "...describes an outlook or specific position that accepts or supports social hierarchy or social inequality. Social hierarchy and social inequality is viewed by those affiliated with the Right as either inevitable, natural, normal, or desirable, whether it arises through traditional social differences or from competition in market economies. It typically accepts or justifies this position on the basis of natural law or tradition."

Left-wing politics is the direct opposite
BigRat
Posts: 465
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3/25/2013 3:58:10 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
Here's how people came to view fascism as left wing:

First, the left built a strawman of what "right wing" means and then used it to label every ideology opposing their own as if all non left wing ideologies were, at the core, the same. They then built a strawman of what "fascism" means. Their strawman of these two things looked quite similar. And, unfortunatley, left wing thinkers tend to write and teach our history books.

Fascism, at its core, is statism. Plain, simple statism. Fascism is anti Religion, anti market, and, yes, anti marxist. Fascism was about using the state to replace Religion, replace the market, and eliminate all opposing ideologies.

In practice, marxist and communist ideologies were really statism, but they at least claimed to be anti state in thinking. Fascism was statism in theory and in practice. It was all about solidarity.

The left then built this strawman of right wing thinking. The strawman was that the right supported blind allegience to the state (nationalism), state forced Religion, corporatism, extreme inequality, and state force to crush all opposing ideologies. This is of course a strawman. The right, in reality, supports strick adherence to the founding principles of the nation opposing the state when it deviates, freedom of religion, free markets, and the market of ideas and different types of thinking. It is also true that the left is more nationalistic in that they are often "state worshippers", less accepting of the existence of opposing ideologies, and often supportive of attempts to suppress Religion.

It is unfair to call the modern left in America "fascist". But, it is undeniably true that, in every aspect, the modern left is closer to real fascism than the modern right is.

The most fascistic presidents in history were not the likes of Ronald Reagan and Calvin Coolidge (they were among the least fascistic) but the likes of Woodrow Wilson, Teddy Roosevelt, FDR, and, yes, Barack Obama.
16kadams
Posts: 10,497
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3/25/2013 4:48:05 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 3/25/2013 3:05:15 PM, jm_notguilty wrote:
It's how society views it and how the mainstream civilization defines it. Screw what Mussolini and his party's ideological intentions, what matters is the consequences of their intentions.

http://en.wikipedia.org...
http://en.wikipedia.org...
http://en.wikipedia.org...

As you can see from the differences of the accurately-sourced Wikipedia articles, Fascism considered by general consensus as right winged since it is an extremist ideology mainly focusing on nationalism and authoritarianism. And that "...describes an outlook or specific position that accepts or supports social hierarchy or social inequality. Social hierarchy and social inequality is viewed by those affiliated with the Right as either inevitable, natural, normal, or desirable, whether it arises through traditional social differences or from competition in market economies. It typically accepts or justifies this position on the basis of natural law or tradition."

Taken out of context. That quote was explaining right wingers, not fascism. And they are not the same, so unless another quote about facism was similar this quote is irrelevant. The fact you cut of the first sentence (which changes the meaning) is dishonest.

As you can see, well source wikipedia did not support your point.


Left-wing politics is the direct opposite
https://www.youtube.com...
https://rekonomics.wordpress.com...
"A trend is a trend, but the question is, will it bend? Will it alter its course through some unforeseen force and come to a premature end?" -- Alec Cairncross
Lordknukle
Posts: 12,788
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3/25/2013 5:27:08 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 3/25/2013 3:05:15 PM, jm_notguilty wrote:
It's how society views it and how the mainstream civilization defines it. Screw what Mussolini and his party's ideological intentions, what matters is the consequences of their intentions.

http://en.wikipedia.org...
http://en.wikipedia.org...
http://en.wikipedia.org...

As you can see from the differences of the accurately-sourced Wikipedia articles, Fascism considered by general consensus as right winged since it is an extremist ideology mainly focusing on nationalism and authoritarianism. And that "...describes an outlook or specific position that accepts or supports social hierarchy or social inequality. Social hierarchy and social inequality is viewed by those affiliated with the Right as either inevitable, natural, normal, or desirable, whether it arises through traditional social differences or from competition in market economies. It typically accepts or justifies this position on the basis of natural law or tradition."

Left-wing politics is the direct opposite

Lol. Facts are somehow dictated by society's perception? By gross misunderstanding of fascism over the past century? Rubbish.

National socialism in Italy (we aren't talking about Germany btw) was based upon the very notion of reducing disparity and segregation between classes. It's irrefutable that the fascists practiced a highly left-wing economic policy, which included implementing the minimum wage and nationalizing many industries. Italians of all classes- rich and poor- supported Mussolini.
"Easy is the descent to Avernus, for the door to the Underworld lies upon both day and night. But to retrace your steps and return to the breezes above- that's the task, that's the toil."
Lordknukle
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3/25/2013 5:31:04 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 3/25/2013 3:58:10 PM, BigRat wrote:
Fascism is anti Religion yes, anti marxist.

In rhetoric, maybe. In practice, Mussolini was heavily influenced by Lenin. The only reason that Marxists in Soviet Russia denounced him was because he was nationalistic, instead of internationalist.

Also, it's unfair to say that Mussolini was anti-religion. Yes, he hated Christianity and all forms of traditional religion. However, he viewed the State as capable of producing its own religion, which he used to implement secular State-based holidays.
"Easy is the descent to Avernus, for the door to the Underworld lies upon both day and night. But to retrace your steps and return to the breezes above- that's the task, that's the toil."
Lordknukle
Posts: 12,788
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3/25/2013 5:31:37 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 3/25/2013 3:05:15 PM, jm_notguilty wrote:
It's how society views it and how the mainstream civilization defines it. Screw what Mussolini and his party's ideological intentions, what matters is the consequences of their intentions.

Also, what consequences are you precisely talking about?
"Easy is the descent to Avernus, for the door to the Underworld lies upon both day and night. But to retrace your steps and return to the breezes above- that's the task, that's the toil."
malcolmxy
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3/25/2013 7:29:16 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
That's like saying, "I'm not gay, but my boyfriend is."
War is over, if you want it.

Meet Dr. Stupid and his assistants - http://www.debate.org...
OberHerr
Posts: 13,062
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3/25/2013 7:54:26 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 3/25/2013 7:29:16 PM, malcolmxy wrote:
That's like saying, "I'm not gay, but my boyfriend is."

Don't feed the troll people.....
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Official Enforcer for the DDO Elite(if they existed).

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FREEDO
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3/25/2013 7:54:58 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
Why does everything need to be left-right?

I think they're correct in their own assessment as a "third-way". There are many third ways.
GRAND POOBAH OF DDO

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Lordknukle
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3/25/2013 7:55:33 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 3/25/2013 7:29:16 PM, malcolmxy wrote:
That's like saying, "I'm not gay, but my boyfriend is."

Would you care to express your dissent in a more.... coherent manner?
"Easy is the descent to Avernus, for the door to the Underworld lies upon both day and night. But to retrace your steps and return to the breezes above- that's the task, that's the toil."
malcolmxy
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3/25/2013 8:04:42 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 3/25/2013 7:55:33 PM, Lordknukle wrote:
At 3/25/2013 7:29:16 PM, malcolmxy wrote:
That's like saying, "I'm not gay, but my boyfriend is."

Would you care to express your dissent in a more.... coherent manner?

Sure.

Communism turned into fascism, and communism is a left-wing idea, ergo fascism is left wing, right?

No. That argument is bullsh!t.

Trotskyists were the left wing of the communist party, and Stalinists were the right wing.

The Stalinists won.

Hitler was a nationalist, and pretty conservative despite running for the Socialist Democratic Party.

Fascists are ALWAYS right wing. They are people who are trying to nforce the status quo through oppression.

Now, I'm not saying that all right-wingers are fascists, but all fascists are right wing.
War is over, if you want it.

Meet Dr. Stupid and his assistants - http://www.debate.org...
malcolmxy
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3/25/2013 8:05:27 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 3/25/2013 7:54:26 PM, OberHerr wrote:
At 3/25/2013 7:29:16 PM, malcolmxy wrote:
That's like saying, "I'm not gay, but my boyfriend is."

Don't feed the troll people.....

go f*ck yourself.
War is over, if you want it.

Meet Dr. Stupid and his assistants - http://www.debate.org...
Noumena
Posts: 6,047
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3/25/2013 8:06:17 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
This all amounts to semantical gibber gabber. The primary focus in denouncing "bad" stuff as part of the Other lies in yer unpronounced normative assessment of the term "right-wing" in the first place. Fascism is "bad", "right-wing" is "good", therefore they can't be the same. But all yer doing is idealizing an arbitrary word to discredit opposing ideology. It's almost as bad as malcomxy trying to monopolize the word anarchism to myopically focus solely on the philosophy of a few early anarchist thinkers.
: At 5/13/2014 7:05:20 PM, Crescendo wrote:
: The difference is that the gay movement is currently pushing their will on Churches, as shown in the link to gay marriage in Denmark. Meanwhile, the Inquisition ended several centuries ago.
Noumena
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3/25/2013 8:06:59 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 3/25/2013 7:54:26 PM, OberHerr wrote:
At 3/25/2013 7:29:16 PM, malcolmxy wrote:
That's like saying, "I'm not gay, but my boyfriend is."

Don't feed the troll people.....
: At 5/13/2014 7:05:20 PM, Crescendo wrote:
: The difference is that the gay movement is currently pushing their will on Churches, as shown in the link to gay marriage in Denmark. Meanwhile, the Inquisition ended several centuries ago.
malcolmxy
Posts: 2,855
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3/25/2013 8:08:44 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 3/25/2013 8:06:59 PM, Noumena wrote:
At 3/25/2013 7:54:26 PM, OberHerr wrote:
At 3/25/2013 7:29:16 PM, malcolmxy wrote:
That's like saying, "I'm not gay, but my boyfriend is."

Don't feed the troll people.....

you may also go f*ck yourself.
War is over, if you want it.

Meet Dr. Stupid and his assistants - http://www.debate.org...
malcolmxy
Posts: 2,855
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3/25/2013 8:09:06 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 3/25/2013 8:04:42 PM, malcolmxy wrote:
At 3/25/2013 7:55:33 PM, Lordknukle wrote:
At 3/25/2013 7:29:16 PM, malcolmxy wrote:
That's like saying, "I'm not gay, but my boyfriend is."

Would you care to express your dissent in a more.... coherent manner?

Sure.

Communism turned into fascism, and communism is a left-wing idea, ergo fascism is left wing, right?

No. That argument is bullsh!t.

Trotskyists were the left wing of the communist party, and Stalinists were the right wing.

The Stalinists won.

Hitler was a nationalist, and pretty conservative despite running for the Socialist Democratic Party.

Fascists are ALWAYS right wing. They are people who are trying to nforce the status quo through oppression.

Now, I'm not saying that all right-wingers are fascists, but all fascists are right wing.
War is over, if you want it.

Meet Dr. Stupid and his assistants - http://www.debate.org...
darkkermit
Posts: 11,204
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3/25/2013 8:28:50 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 3/25/2013 7:54:58 PM, FREEDO wrote:
Why does everything need to be left-right?

I think they're correct in their own assessment as a "third-way". There are many third ways.

because we need labels and ways to smear certain ideologies as either right-wing or left-wing.
Open borders debate:
http://www.debate.org...
Noumena
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3/25/2013 8:43:57 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 3/25/2013 8:08:44 PM, malcolmxy wrote:
At 3/25/2013 8:06:59 PM, Noumena wrote:
At 3/25/2013 7:54:26 PM, OberHerr wrote:
At 3/25/2013 7:29:16 PM, malcolmxy wrote:
That's like saying, "I'm not gay, but my boyfriend is."

Don't feed the troll people.....

you may also go f*ck yourself.

https://www.google.com...
: At 5/13/2014 7:05:20 PM, Crescendo wrote:
: The difference is that the gay movement is currently pushing their will on Churches, as shown in the link to gay marriage in Denmark. Meanwhile, the Inquisition ended several centuries ago.
darkkermit
Posts: 11,204
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3/25/2013 8:49:04 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 3/25/2013 8:06:17 PM, Noumena wrote:
This all amounts to semantical gibber gabber. The primary focus in denouncing "bad" stuff as part of the Other lies in yer unpronounced normative assessment of the term "right-wing" in the first place. Fascism is "bad", "right-wing" is "good", therefore they can't be the same. But all yer doing is idealizing an arbitrary word to discredit opposing ideology. It's almost as bad as malcomxy trying to monopolize the word anarchism to myopically focus solely on the philosophy of a few early anarchist thinkers.

^THIS
Open borders debate:
http://www.debate.org...
Skepsikyma
Posts: 8,280
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3/25/2013 8:56:49 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
The left/right spectrum is silly; we aren't in eighteenth century France any longer. And politics isn't biology, there's no cut-and-dry objective hierarchy, because political movements don't necessarily exhibit shared derived characteristics. Any system of classification which we introduce is subjective, flawed, open to abuse, and overall quite useless. We're better off taking things on a case-by-case basis.
"The Collectivist experiment is thoroughly suited (in appearance at least) to the Capitalist society which it proposes to replace. It works with the existing machinery of Capitalism, talks and thinks in the existing terms of Capitalism, appeals to just those appetites which Capitalism has aroused, and ridicules as fantastic and unheard-of just those things in society the memory of which Capitalism has killed among men wherever the blight of it has spread."
- Hilaire Belloc -
malcolmxy
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3/25/2013 9:00:18 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 3/25/2013 8:43:57 PM, Noumena wrote:
At 3/25/2013 8:08:44 PM, malcolmxy wrote:
At 3/25/2013 8:06:59 PM, Noumena wrote:
At 3/25/2013 7:54:26 PM, OberHerr wrote:
At 3/25/2013 7:29:16 PM, malcolmxy wrote:
That's like saying, "I'm not gay, but my boyfriend is."

Don't feed the troll people.....

you may also go f*ck yourself.

https://www.google.com...

No, seriously, go f*ck yourself
War is over, if you want it.

Meet Dr. Stupid and his assistants - http://www.debate.org...
Noumena
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3/25/2013 9:01:46 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 3/25/2013 8:56:49 PM, Skepsikyma wrote:
The left/right spectrum is silly; we aren't in eighteenth century France any longer. And politics isn't biology, there's no cut-and-dry objective hierarchy, because political movements don't necessarily exhibit shared derived characteristics. Any system of classification which we introduce is subjective, flawed, open to abuse, and overall quite useless. We're better off taking things on a case-by-case basis.

Pointing out that realist political classification is retarded only hits part of the issue. The other part is bringing to light the motivations requisite to such floundering about.
: At 5/13/2014 7:05:20 PM, Crescendo wrote:
: The difference is that the gay movement is currently pushing their will on Churches, as shown in the link to gay marriage in Denmark. Meanwhile, the Inquisition ended several centuries ago.
malcolmxy
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3/25/2013 9:02:01 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 3/25/2013 8:56:49 PM, Skepsikyma wrote:
The left/right spectrum is silly; we aren't in eighteenth century France any longer. And politics isn't biology, there's no cut-and-dry objective hierarchy, because political movements don't necessarily exhibit shared derived characteristics. Any system of classification which we introduce is subjective, flawed, open to abuse, and overall quite useless. We're better off taking things on a case-by-case basis.

Name one fascist, after they became a fascist, who you might call left-wing.
War is over, if you want it.

Meet Dr. Stupid and his assistants - http://www.debate.org...
OMGJustinBieber
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3/25/2013 9:06:38 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 3/25/2013 8:49:04 PM, darkkermit wrote:
At 3/25/2013 8:06:17 PM, Noumena wrote:
This all amounts to semantical gibber gabber. The primary focus in denouncing "bad" stuff as part of the Other lies in yer unpronounced normative assessment of the term "right-wing" in the first place. Fascism is "bad", "right-wing" is "good", therefore they can't be the same. But all yer doing is idealizing an arbitrary word to discredit opposing ideology. It's almost as bad as malcomxy trying to monopolize the word anarchism to myopically focus solely on the philosophy of a few early anarchist thinkers.

^THIS

^
Noumena
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3/25/2013 9:07:28 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 3/25/2013 9:00:18 PM, malcolmxy wrote:
At 3/25/2013 8:43:57 PM, Noumena wrote:
At 3/25/2013 8:08:44 PM, malcolmxy wrote:
At 3/25/2013 8:06:59 PM, Noumena wrote:
At 3/25/2013 7:54:26 PM, OberHerr wrote:
At 3/25/2013 7:29:16 PM, malcolmxy wrote:
That's like saying, "I'm not gay, but my boyfriend is."

Don't feed the troll people.....

you may also go f*ck yourself.

https://www.google.com...

No, seriously, go f*ck yourself

https://www.google.com...
: At 5/13/2014 7:05:20 PM, Crescendo wrote:
: The difference is that the gay movement is currently pushing their will on Churches, as shown in the link to gay marriage in Denmark. Meanwhile, the Inquisition ended several centuries ago.
malcolmxy
Posts: 2,855
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3/25/2013 9:08:18 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 3/25/2013 9:02:01 PM, malcolmxy wrote:
At 3/25/2013 8:56:49 PM, Skepsikyma wrote:
The left/right spectrum is silly; we aren't in eighteenth century France any longer. And politics isn't biology, there's no cut-and-dry objective hierarchy, because political movements don't necessarily exhibit shared derived characteristics. Any system of classification which we introduce is subjective, flawed, open to abuse, and overall quite useless. We're better off taking things on a case-by-case basis.

Name one fascist, after they became a fascist, who you might call left-wing.

^
War is over, if you want it.

Meet Dr. Stupid and his assistants - http://www.debate.org...
Skepsikyma
Posts: 8,280
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3/25/2013 9:09:49 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 3/25/2013 9:02:01 PM, malcolmxy wrote:
At 3/25/2013 8:56:49 PM, Skepsikyma wrote:
The left/right spectrum is silly; we aren't in eighteenth century France any longer. And politics isn't biology, there's no cut-and-dry objective hierarchy, because political movements don't necessarily exhibit shared derived characteristics. Any system of classification which we introduce is subjective, flawed, open to abuse, and overall quite useless. We're better off taking things on a case-by-case basis.

Name one fascist, after they became a fascist, who you might call left-wing.

You're missing my point. I'm not saying that the classifications don't hold up, just that there's no use for them. I could declare a new family, called the yellowaceae, which includes canaries, canola, mustard, buttercups, and tiger swallowtails, based on the fact that they are all yellow. This is true. However, it tells you nothing about their true phylogeny, which is why this would be a bad system of biological classification. I would argue that all systems of political classification are bad because there is no synapomorphy present from which to derive an objective hierarchy. It's not a field which lends itself to classification, and trying to force it into such a scheme leads to absurd, yellowaceae-esque conclusions.
"The Collectivist experiment is thoroughly suited (in appearance at least) to the Capitalist society which it proposes to replace. It works with the existing machinery of Capitalism, talks and thinks in the existing terms of Capitalism, appeals to just those appetites which Capitalism has aroused, and ridicules as fantastic and unheard-of just those things in society the memory of which Capitalism has killed among men wherever the blight of it has spread."
- Hilaire Belloc -
Noumena
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3/25/2013 9:11:16 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 3/25/2013 9:09:49 PM, Skepsikyma wrote:
At 3/25/2013 9:02:01 PM, malcolmxy wrote:
At 3/25/2013 8:56:49 PM, Skepsikyma wrote:
The left/right spectrum is silly; we aren't in eighteenth century France any longer. And politics isn't biology, there's no cut-and-dry objective hierarchy, because political movements don't necessarily exhibit shared derived characteristics. Any system of classification which we introduce is subjective, flawed, open to abuse, and overall quite useless. We're better off taking things on a case-by-case basis.

Name one fascist, after they became a fascist, who you might call left-wing.

You're missing my point. I'm not saying that the classifications don't hold up, just that there's no use for them. I could declare a new family, called the yellowaceae, which includes canaries, canola, mustard, buttercups, and tiger swallowtails, based on the fact that they are all yellow. This is true. However, it tells you nothing about their true phylogeny, which is why this would be a bad system of biological classification. I would argue that all systems of political classification are bad because there is no synapomorphy present from which to derive an objective hierarchy. It's not a field which lends itself to classification, and trying to force it into such a scheme leads to absurd, yellowaceae-esque conclusions.

http://www.myfacewhen.net...
: At 5/13/2014 7:05:20 PM, Crescendo wrote:
: The difference is that the gay movement is currently pushing their will on Churches, as shown in the link to gay marriage in Denmark. Meanwhile, the Inquisition ended several centuries ago.
Skepsikyma
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3/25/2013 9:13:54 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 3/25/2013 9:01:46 PM, Noumena wrote:
At 3/25/2013 8:56:49 PM, Skepsikyma wrote:
The left/right spectrum is silly; we aren't in eighteenth century France any longer. And politics isn't biology, there's no cut-and-dry objective hierarchy, because political movements don't necessarily exhibit shared derived characteristics. Any system of classification which we introduce is subjective, flawed, open to abuse, and overall quite useless. We're better off taking things on a case-by-case basis.

Pointing out that realist political classification is retarded only hits part of the issue. The other part is bringing to light the motivations requisite to such floundering about.

True, some people are looking to use such systems to make guilt/innocence by association type arguments. I still think that making cladistic texts required reading for political science majors would solve a lot of issues. Maybe not, but at least it'd make me feel better. It's painful to watch said floundering about.
"The Collectivist experiment is thoroughly suited (in appearance at least) to the Capitalist society which it proposes to replace. It works with the existing machinery of Capitalism, talks and thinks in the existing terms of Capitalism, appeals to just those appetites which Capitalism has aroused, and ridicules as fantastic and unheard-of just those things in society the memory of which Capitalism has killed among men wherever the blight of it has spread."
- Hilaire Belloc -