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Was Pat Tillman Assassinated?

wrichcirw
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3/25/2013 3:06:24 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
Given this is the 10 year anniversary of the Iraq War, and given there was a thread earlier posted about Tomas Young's final days of life, I thought it would be proper to note Pat Tillman as well. For anyone who was too young to know who Pat Tillman was:

http://en.wikipedia.org...

Basically, Tillman was a pro-football player who refused a $3.6 million salary with the Arizona Cardinals in order to enlist as an Army ranger in 2002. He was joined by his brother, Kevin Tillman, who refused a contract with the Cleveland Indians in order to enlist. (nice gene pool, no?)

Both of these men were intelligent - Tillman himself graduated half a year early with a 3.85 GPA. They realized "...how fighting as a soldier would leave us without a voice ... until we got out." [1] Pat Tillman was well-read, having "read the Bible, the Koran, the Book of Mormon, Ralph Waldo Emerson, Henry David Thoreau" while in college. "Another of his favorite authors was anti-war professor Dr. Noam Chomsky." [1]

Indeed, Tillman used his celebrity to schedule an interview with Chomsky upon his return from Afghanistan. [2]

This man was not Tomas Young...Tillman knew exactly what he was getting into. Unlike Tomas Young, Tillman was fully aware of the risks inherent in his actions, and had the means to choose what would more than likely have been an otherwise illustrious career with the NFL.

---

The meeting with Chomsky never took place. Instead, Tillman died while serving in Afghanistan in 2004. For years, the official story was that he died heroically against enemy troops. In 2007, the Army recanted and said that he was a victim of friendly fire. Tillman's parents are STILL looking for the truth today, which they believe to be that Tillman was actually assassinated by the US government.

---

What is the evidence and why would the government do this?

1) "First, there was no evidence of any incoming fire from the enemy, and no sign of damage to any man or equipment from enemy fire." [2]

2) "Several doctors, their names blacked out in the reports, said that the bullets were so close together that Tillman must have been shot by an M16 combat rifle - a highpowered repeat machine gun - fired from no more than ten yards."

"The Army doctors told the investigators that these wounds suggested murder and urged them to launch a criminal investigation." [2] This investigation never occurred.

3) Besides being no enemy combatants, there was a US SOF sniper team on site:

"Is it coincidence that after more than three years it has been discovered that there were never-before-mentioned US snipers in the second group?"

"Could there have been a secret sniper on a mission to Afghanistan to assassinate the Army's poster boy?"

"Or perhaps three assassins, because as a general rule snipers fire in single shots, from specially tuned rifles, rather than in bursts of three?"

4) All evidence from the case has been burned, to include Tillman's uniform and body armor, as well as his diary, which he had kept since he was 16. [2] This is highly unusual for a fallen soldier.

"Tillman's body armor and uniform were burned, completely contrary to regulations, and his diary never recovered." [1]

---

As far as motive is concerned, imagine if the Bush administration's poster-boy for the Iraq war was known for this:

"Tillman's friend and fellow soldier in Iraq, Spc. Russell Baer, told the San Francisco Chronicle in 2005:"

"I can see it like a movie screen. We were outside of [an Iraqi city] watching as bombs were dropping on the town.... We were talking. And Pat said, 'You know, this war is so f*cking illegal.' And we all said, 'Yeah.' That's who he was. He totally was against Bush." [2]

---

Anyone who has watched Oliver Stone's JFK will see some appalling similarities...the extent of the cover-up (involving several members of Bush's cabinet http://www.mcclatchydc.com...), the destruction of all relevant evidence, and the inconsistencies with the official explanation.

Your thoughts on this matter?

[1] http://archive.truthout.org...
[2] http://www.dailymail.co.uk...
At 8/9/2013 9:41:24 AM, wrichcirw wrote:
If you are civil with me, I will be civil to you. If you decide to bring unreasonable animosity to bear in a reasonable discussion, then what would you expect other than to get flustered?
wrichcirw
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3/25/2013 3:27:22 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
A letter by Kevin Tillman in 2006:

---

It is Pat"s birthday on November 6, and elections are the day after. It gets me thinking about a conversation I had with Pat before we joined the military. He spoke about the risks with signing the papers. How once we committed, we were at the mercy of the American leadership and the American people. How we could be thrown in a direction not of our volition. How fighting as a soldier would leave us without a voice" until we got out.

Much has happened since we handed over our voice:

Somehow we were sent to invade a nation because it was a direct threat to the American people, or to the world, or harbored terrorists, or was involved in the September 11 attacks, or received weapons-grade uranium from Niger, or had mobile weapons labs, or WMD, or had a need to be liberated, or we needed to establish a democracy, or stop an insurgency, or stop a civil war we created that can"t be called a civil war even though it is. Something like that.

Somehow our elected leaders were subverting international law and humanity by setting up secret prisons around the world, secretly kidnapping people, secretly holding them indefinitely, secretly not charging them with anything, secretly torturing them. Somehow that overt policy of torture became the fault of a few "bad apples" in the military.

Somehow back at home, support for the soldiers meant having a five-year-old kindergartener scribble a picture with crayons and send it overseas, or slapping stickers on cars, or lobbying Congress for an extra pad in a helmet. It"s interesting that a soldier on his third or fourth tour should care about a drawing from a five-year-old; or a faded sticker on a car as his friends die around him; or an extra pad in a helmet, as if it will protect him when an IED throws his vehicle 50 feet into the air as his body comes apart and his skin melts to the seat.
Somehow the more soldiers that die, the more legitimate the illegal invasion becomes.

Somehow America has become a country that projects everything that it is not and condemns everything that it is.

Somehow American leadership, whose only credit is lying to its people and illegally invading a nation, has been allowed to steal the courage, virtue and honor of its soldiers on the ground.

Somehow those afraid to fight an illegal invasion decades ago are allowed to send soldiers to die for an illegal invasion they started.

Somehow faking character, virtue and strength is tolerated.

Somehow profiting from tragedy and horror is tolerated.

Somehow the death of tens, if not hundreds, of thousands of people is tolerated.

Somehow subversion of the Bill of Rights and The Constitution is tolerated.

Somehow suspension of Habeas Corpus is supposed to keep this country safe.

Somehow torture is tolerated.

Somehow lying is tolerated.

Somehow reason is being discarded for faith, dogma, and nonsense.

Somehow American leadership managed to create a more dangerous world.

Somehow a narrative is more important than reality.

Somehow America has become a country that projects everything that it is not and condemns everything that it is.

Somehow the most reasonable, trusted and respected country in the world has become one of the most irrational, belligerent, feared, and distrusted countries in the world.

Somehow being politically informed, diligent, and skeptical has been replaced by apathy through active ignorance.

Somehow the same incompetent, narcissistic, virtueless, vacuous, malicious criminals are still in charge of this country.

Somehow this is tolerated.

Somehow nobody is accountable for this.

In a democracy, the policy of the leaders is the policy of the people. So don"t be shocked when our grandkids bury much of this generation as traitors to the nation, to the world and to humanity. Most likely, they will come to know that "somehow" was nurtured by fear, insecurity and indifference, leaving the country vulnerable to unchecked, unchallenged parasites.

Luckily this country is still a democracy. People still have a voice. People still can take action. It can start after Pat"s birthday.

http://www.truthdig.com...
At 8/9/2013 9:41:24 AM, wrichcirw wrote:
If you are civil with me, I will be civil to you. If you decide to bring unreasonable animosity to bear in a reasonable discussion, then what would you expect other than to get flustered?
OMGJustinBieber
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3/25/2013 3:28:03 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
I'm keeping agnostic about this issue just because I haven't had a chance to hear the other side's evidence or followed up on the evidence provided here but I'll say now that it wouldn't surprise me if it was an assassination. I feel you're asking for trouble as a celebrity if you've arranged a meeting with Chomsky upon your return implying some interest in a movie or a book deal criticizing the war. I'm sure he could have done this from the outside, but to join the ranks of the military as an avid Chomsky follower and a celebrity is more than enough to draw some suspicion.
wrichcirw
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3/25/2013 3:36:20 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 8/9/2013 9:41:24 AM, wrichcirw wrote:
If you are civil with me, I will be civil to you. If you decide to bring unreasonable animosity to bear in a reasonable discussion, then what would you expect other than to get flustered?
wrichcirw
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3/25/2013 3:37:26 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 3/25/2013 3:28:03 PM, OMGJustinBieber wrote:
I'm keeping agnostic about this issue just because I haven't had a chance to hear the other side's evidence or followed up on the evidence provided here but I'll say now that it wouldn't surprise me if it was an assassination. I feel you're asking for trouble as a celebrity if you've arranged a meeting with Chomsky upon your return implying some interest in a movie or a book deal criticizing the war. I'm sure he could have done this from the outside, but to join the ranks of the military as an avid Chomsky follower and a celebrity is more than enough to draw some suspicion.

Good point.
At 8/9/2013 9:41:24 AM, wrichcirw wrote:
If you are civil with me, I will be civil to you. If you decide to bring unreasonable animosity to bear in a reasonable discussion, then what would you expect other than to get flustered?
wrichcirw
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3/25/2013 3:41:22 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 3/25/2013 3:37:26 PM, wrichcirw wrote:
At 3/25/2013 3:28:03 PM, OMGJustinBieber wrote:
I'm keeping agnostic about this issue just because I haven't had a chance to hear the other side's evidence or followed up on the evidence provided here but I'll say now that it wouldn't surprise me if it was an assassination. I feel you're asking for trouble as a celebrity if you've arranged a meeting with Chomsky upon your return implying some interest in a movie or a book deal criticizing the war. I'm sure he could have done this from the outside, but to join the ranks of the military as an avid Chomsky follower and a celebrity is more than enough to draw some suspicion.

Good point.

So, next question would be, is such a killing justifiable in any sense, and if so, how so?
At 8/9/2013 9:41:24 AM, wrichcirw wrote:
If you are civil with me, I will be civil to you. If you decide to bring unreasonable animosity to bear in a reasonable discussion, then what would you expect other than to get flustered?
malcolmxy
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3/26/2013 3:22:27 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
Tillman's family uncovered this as a "friendly fire" incident years ago.

Personally, I think the government needed a hero (which Tillman ABSOLUTELY was...reasons why we actually went to war aside, everyone thought we were going to defend the country, and Tillman gave up a 1-year, $4 million contract to enlist...when he easily could have been commissioned), and friendly-fire deaths don't make for good copy when you're trying to get some positive press in a war which the public viewed, more and more as time went on, negatively.

So, they made up some BS story.

How impressive is this family, though, to not take the government's story at face value and uncover the truth?

I think the entire Tillman clan is the shiznit.

THESE PEOPLE are the kind of people I consider true patriots.
War is over, if you want it.

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wrichcirw
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3/26/2013 9:19:55 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 3/26/2013 3:22:27 AM, malcolmxy wrote:
Tillman's family uncovered this as a "friendly fire" incident years ago.

Personally, I think the government needed a hero (which Tillman ABSOLUTELY was...reasons why we actually went to war aside, everyone thought we were going to defend the country, and Tillman gave up a 1-year, $4 million contract to enlist...when he easily could have been commissioned), and friendly-fire deaths don't make for good copy when you're trying to get some positive press in a war which the public viewed, more and more as time went on, negatively.

So, they made up some BS story.

How impressive is this family, though, to not take the government's story at face value and uncover the truth?

I think the entire Tillman clan is the shiznit.

THESE PEOPLE are the kind of people I consider true patriots.

If you watch the Olbermann interview with Wesley Clark, he goes on about how he thought exactly like you. THEN more evidence turned up that made Olbermann question this viewpoint, and that perhaps Tillman's death was NOT JUST FRIENDLY FIRE, but an actual assassination attempt successfully executed by the military against one of its own.

I agree with you on the Tillman family's patriotism, but I think the inquiry surrounding his death is much deeper, and much darker, than what we have been led to believe at this point.
At 8/9/2013 9:41:24 AM, wrichcirw wrote:
If you are civil with me, I will be civil to you. If you decide to bring unreasonable animosity to bear in a reasonable discussion, then what would you expect other than to get flustered?
malcolmxy
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3/26/2013 9:44:17 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 3/26/2013 9:19:55 AM, wrichcirw wrote:
At 3/26/2013 3:22:27 AM, malcolmxy wrote:
Tillman's family uncovered this as a "friendly fire" incident years ago.

Personally, I think the government needed a hero (which Tillman ABSOLUTELY was...reasons why we actually went to war aside, everyone thought we were going to defend the country, and Tillman gave up a 1-year, $4 million contract to enlist...when he easily could have been commissioned), and friendly-fire deaths don't make for good copy when you're trying to get some positive press in a war which the public viewed, more and more as time went on, negatively.

So, they made up some BS story.

How impressive is this family, though, to not take the government's story at face value and uncover the truth?

I think the entire Tillman clan is the shiznit.

THESE PEOPLE are the kind of people I consider true patriots.

If you watch the Olbermann interview with Wesley Clark, he goes on about how he thought exactly like you. THEN more evidence turned up that made Olbermann question this viewpoint, and that perhaps Tillman's death was NOT JUST FRIENDLY FIRE, but an actual assassination attempt successfully executed by the military against one of its own.

I agree with you on the Tillman family's patriotism, but I think the inquiry surrounding his death is much deeper, and much darker, than what we have been led to believe at this point.

Which link is it?
You posted 3 and your excerpts didn't lead me past a friendly fire cover-up, and since you didn't really mention the progression of the story of his death, it seemed a little hokey, conspiracy theory to me (and don't expect Olbermann's histrionics to change my mind on that, but I'll give it a look-see)
War is over, if you want it.

Meet Dr. Stupid and his assistants - http://www.debate.org...
wrichcirw
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3/26/2013 10:01:51 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
I just saw the documentary on this put out by the Tillman family. The events around his death:

Tillman and two privates dismounted their vehicle to investigate an explosion on a hill (possible mortar fire) while their convoy was in a deep canyon. They somehow met up with an afghani while climbing the hill.

When they got there, their own convoy started shooting at them (1). The convoy destroy the afghani, while Tillman and the other the soldiers took cover. The convoy stops shooting. Tillman throws a smoke grenade to indicate friendlies, and then gets up and waves his arms, i.e. cease fire. The convoy starts shooting again (2). I believe at this point Tillman gets hit in the legs, and possibly gets shot multiple times in the chest (where he had body armor). They cease shooting again.

Tillman screams "I'm Pat Fvcking Tillman" over and over again. Then, more shots (3). One of the privates then observes that Tillman's head is no longer connected to his body, and there is a river of blood flowing from his body.

One of the privates with Tillman remarked that he thought he was going to die, and that he may as well take out anyone and everyone that was shooting at him (i.e. his own convoy). The other one started praying to God because he thought the same thing. Both were disoriented until after (3), the third burst of shooting (which resulted in Tillman's decapitation), when they finally observed that Tillman was dead.

Hours after Tillman's decapitation, CPR was performed on him (exactly how, I do not know, how exactly do you perform CPR on someone that does not have a head?)...this gave the Army a reason to legally destroy his uniform and body armor, i.e. evidence of the crime. The doctor assigned to his autopsy refused to sign off on it for months, and went up the chain of command to demand a murder investigation be opened. This was denied.

---

The way I deconstruct this, this event was a coordinated hit to assassinate Tillman. The Afghan was a patsy, possibly to show that there were potential "hostiles". Who knows why he was there and why he followed Tillman? Perhaps he was insurance that if Tillman somehow survived and found reason to somehow defeat his own convoy, they could point to the Afghan corpse and paint Tillman as a Taliban sympathizer. Chomsky would probably have been arrested shortly after.

The convoy was never under attack by any fire from anyone, including Tillman and his two accompanying soldiers. The initial explosion was a planted decoy to justify raised tensions.

There was a sniper team with the convoy. Why exactly no one knows. This team was the one that killed Pat Tillman.

What more than likely occurred was that this sniper team was given orders to kill Pat Tillman. They tried once through blanket fire, and killed the Afghan. They tried again and shot Tillman in the legs. Then, they got out of their convoy, walked up to Tillman, and shot him in the head 3 times with an M-16 burst, execution style. One of the two soldiers with Tillman did not see until he felt the river of blood...he was shellshocked. The other one saw everything, and was cowed into believing he did not see. Real 1984 sh!t.

The members of the sniper team accompanied Kevin Tillman for the rest of his enlistment. The driver of the vehicle which escorted the sniper team became the team leader for the shellshocked soldier. This driver would repeatedly try to console the soldier into believing that he did the right thing or what not.

The shellshocked soldier says that Tillman saved his life by forcing him to stop praying, pay attention to the current situation, and take cover. This then begins to take up religious overtones (even though Tillman was an athiest). Christ was nailed on the cross, and flanked by two criminals...one which he saved through "faith".

---

There was an video investigation done the day after to cover the scene of the event, the footage of which was included in the documents the Tillman family procured through their Freedom of Information Act request. The lead in this video investigation, who walked through the events of that day, is no longer alive.
At 8/9/2013 9:41:24 AM, wrichcirw wrote:
If you are civil with me, I will be civil to you. If you decide to bring unreasonable animosity to bear in a reasonable discussion, then what would you expect other than to get flustered?
wrichcirw
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3/26/2013 10:02:42 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 3/26/2013 9:44:17 AM, malcolmxy wrote:
At 3/26/2013 9:19:55 AM, wrichcirw wrote:
At 3/26/2013 3:22:27 AM, malcolmxy wrote:
Tillman's family uncovered this as a "friendly fire" incident years ago.

Personally, I think the government needed a hero (which Tillman ABSOLUTELY was...reasons why we actually went to war aside, everyone thought we were going to defend the country, and Tillman gave up a 1-year, $4 million contract to enlist...when he easily could have been commissioned), and friendly-fire deaths don't make for good copy when you're trying to get some positive press in a war which the public viewed, more and more as time went on, negatively.

So, they made up some BS story.

How impressive is this family, though, to not take the government's story at face value and uncover the truth?

I think the entire Tillman clan is the shiznit.

THESE PEOPLE are the kind of people I consider true patriots.

If you watch the Olbermann interview with Wesley Clark, he goes on about how he thought exactly like you. THEN more evidence turned up that made Olbermann question this viewpoint, and that perhaps Tillman's death was NOT JUST FRIENDLY FIRE, but an actual assassination attempt successfully executed by the military against one of its own.

I agree with you on the Tillman family's patriotism, but I think the inquiry surrounding his death is much deeper, and much darker, than what we have been led to believe at this point.

Which link is it?
You posted 3 and your excerpts didn't lead me past a friendly fire cover-up, and since you didn't really mention the progression of the story of his death, it seemed a little hokey, conspiracy theory to me (and don't expect Olbermann's histrionics to change my mind on that, but I'll give it a look-see)

Link #2.
At 8/9/2013 9:41:24 AM, wrichcirw wrote:
If you are civil with me, I will be civil to you. If you decide to bring unreasonable animosity to bear in a reasonable discussion, then what would you expect other than to get flustered?
wrichcirw
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3/26/2013 10:04:19 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
I agree this is conspiracy theory sh!t, but Tillman's mother is the one uncovering this information. There's a lot more validity here than any "FEMA coffins" sh!t or whatever else Jesse Ventura puts out on his show.

Notice Venture does NOT talk about this incident on his show, yet he is candid that there was an egregious cover-up on Tillman.
At 8/9/2013 9:41:24 AM, wrichcirw wrote:
If you are civil with me, I will be civil to you. If you decide to bring unreasonable animosity to bear in a reasonable discussion, then what would you expect other than to get flustered?
wrichcirw
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3/26/2013 10:08:39 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
The shellshocked soldier says that Tillman saved his life by forcing him to stop praying, pay attention to the current situation, and take cover. This then begins to take up religious overtones (even though Tillman was an athiest). Christ was nailed on the cross, and flanked by two criminals...one which he saved through "faith".

Just to emphasize the religious overtones, Tillman while climbing up the hill requests to take off his body armor. I think Tillman knew he was going to die that day.
At 8/9/2013 9:41:24 AM, wrichcirw wrote:
If you are civil with me, I will be civil to you. If you decide to bring unreasonable animosity to bear in a reasonable discussion, then what would you expect other than to get flustered?
malcolmxy
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3/26/2013 10:09:27 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 3/26/2013 10:04:19 AM, wrichcirw wrote:
I agree this is conspiracy theory sh!t, but Tillman's mother is the one uncovering this information. There's a lot more validity here than any "FEMA coffins" sh!t or whatever else Jesse Ventura puts out on his show.

Notice Venture does NOT talk about this incident on his show, yet he is candid that there was an egregious cover-up on Tillman.

I don't know. I haven't turned on a TV in three years, but I trust you enough to look into it further, and I am intrigued enough by the story to actually do it, so I will.

Thanks.
War is over, if you want it.

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wrichcirw
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3/26/2013 10:52:10 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 3/26/2013 10:09:27 AM, malcolmxy wrote:
At 3/26/2013 10:04:19 AM, wrichcirw wrote:
I agree this is conspiracy theory sh!t, but Tillman's mother is the one uncovering this information. There's a lot more validity here than any "FEMA coffins" sh!t or whatever else Jesse Ventura puts out on his show.

Notice Venture does NOT talk about this incident on his show, yet he is candid that there was an egregious cover-up on Tillman.

I don't know. I haven't turned on a TV in three years, but I trust you enough to look into it further, and I am intrigued enough by the story to actually do it, so I will.

Thanks.

You're welcome.
At 8/9/2013 9:41:24 AM, wrichcirw wrote:
If you are civil with me, I will be civil to you. If you decide to bring unreasonable animosity to bear in a reasonable discussion, then what would you expect other than to get flustered?
wrichcirw
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3/26/2013 10:52:27 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
And BTW, I don't even own a TV, lol...:D
At 8/9/2013 9:41:24 AM, wrichcirw wrote:
If you are civil with me, I will be civil to you. If you decide to bring unreasonable animosity to bear in a reasonable discussion, then what would you expect other than to get flustered?
wrichcirw
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3/26/2013 11:42:19 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
Another casualty from all this:

David Uthlaut was Tillman's commanding officer (CO) at the time. He recommended against the splitting of the convoy in the canyon that led to the confusion surrounding Tillman's death. Uthlaut was subsequently hit by shrapnel in the face and body seriously wounding him on the same day that Tillman died. He was accused of dereliction of duty and expelled from the Rangers.

This guy was following the footsteps of Douglas MacArthur:

http://sports.espn.go.com...
http://tucsoncitizen.com...
At 8/9/2013 9:41:24 AM, wrichcirw wrote:
If you are civil with me, I will be civil to you. If you decide to bring unreasonable animosity to bear in a reasonable discussion, then what would you expect other than to get flustered?
malcolmxy
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3/26/2013 11:52:36 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 3/26/2013 11:42:19 AM, wrichcirw wrote:
Another casualty from all this:

David Uthlaut was Tillman's commanding officer (CO) at the time. He recommended against the splitting of the convoy in the canyon that led to the confusion surrounding Tillman's death. Uthlaut was subsequently hit by shrapnel in the face and body seriously wounding him on the same day that Tillman died. He was accused of dereliction of duty and expelled from the Rangers.

This guy was following the footsteps of Douglas MacArthur:

http://sports.espn.go.com...
http://tucsoncitizen.com...

I think he was the Platoon Leader at the time, not Tillman's CO, because the CO was the guy who ordered the indiscriminate 360 degrees of automatic fire to be let loose anytime anyone in the battalion got hit with shrapnel from an IED, which would be the whole reason for this cover up, and that guy was a Colonel (probably full if he commanded an entire battalion) as opposed to this guy who was a 1st Lieutenant.

This guy sounds like middle management.
War is over, if you want it.

Meet Dr. Stupid and his assistants - http://www.debate.org...
wrichcirw
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3/26/2013 12:07:34 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 3/26/2013 11:52:36 AM, malcolmxy wrote:
At 3/26/2013 11:42:19 AM, wrichcirw wrote:
Another casualty from all this:

David Uthlaut was Tillman's commanding officer (CO) at the time. He recommended against the splitting of the convoy in the canyon that led to the confusion surrounding Tillman's death. Uthlaut was subsequently hit by shrapnel in the face and body seriously wounding him on the same day that Tillman died. He was accused of dereliction of duty and expelled from the Rangers.

This guy was following the footsteps of Douglas MacArthur:

http://sports.espn.go.com...
http://tucsoncitizen.com...

I think he was the Platoon Leader at the time, not Tillman's CO, because the CO was the guy who ordered the indiscriminate 360 degrees of automatic fire to be let loose anytime anyone in the battalion got hit with shrapnel from an IED, which would be the whole reason for this cover up, and that guy was a Colonel (probably full if he commanded an entire battalion) as opposed to this guy who was a 1st Lieutenant.

This guy sounds like middle management.

Nonono, the 360 is a separate incident, wholly irrelevant to the Pat Tillman story. I know, the article goes all over the place.

That was a different CO.
At 8/9/2013 9:41:24 AM, wrichcirw wrote:
If you are civil with me, I will be civil to you. If you decide to bring unreasonable animosity to bear in a reasonable discussion, then what would you expect other than to get flustered?
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3/26/2013 12:09:49 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 3/26/2013 12:07:34 PM, wrichcirw wrote:
At 3/26/2013 11:52:36 AM, malcolmxy wrote:
At 3/26/2013 11:42:19 AM, wrichcirw wrote:
Another casualty from all this:

David Uthlaut was Tillman's commanding officer (CO) at the time. He recommended against the splitting of the convoy in the canyon that led to the confusion surrounding Tillman's death. Uthlaut was subsequently hit by shrapnel in the face and body seriously wounding him on the same day that Tillman died. He was accused of dereliction of duty and expelled from the Rangers.

This guy was following the footsteps of Douglas MacArthur:

http://sports.espn.go.com...
http://tucsoncitizen.com...

I think he was the Platoon Leader at the time, not Tillman's CO, because the CO was the guy who ordered the indiscriminate 360 degrees of automatic fire to be let loose anytime anyone in the battalion got hit with shrapnel from an IED, which would be the whole reason for this cover up, and that guy was a Colonel (probably full if he commanded an entire battalion) as opposed to this guy who was a 1st Lieutenant.

This guy sounds like middle management.

Nonono, the 360 is a separate incident, wholly irrelevant to the Pat Tillman story. I know, the article goes all over the place.

That was a different CO.

Actually nevermind...the 360 guy wasn't a CO, he was a battalion commander, probably a colonel. COs overseeing grunts like Tillman are typically lieutenants like Uthlaut.
At 8/9/2013 9:41:24 AM, wrichcirw wrote:
If you are civil with me, I will be civil to you. If you decide to bring unreasonable animosity to bear in a reasonable discussion, then what would you expect other than to get flustered?
wrichcirw
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3/26/2013 12:12:08 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
Just to reiterate, the Tillman story is not even the central focus of link #1. The central focus on link #1 is the indiscriminate behavior (IMHO fully justified nonetheless) of US soldiers in Iraq. They note that the battalion commander of that unit, "Lt. Col. Kauzlarich was Tillman's executive officer at the time Tillman was killed in Afghanistan."
At 8/9/2013 9:41:24 AM, wrichcirw wrote:
If you are civil with me, I will be civil to you. If you decide to bring unreasonable animosity to bear in a reasonable discussion, then what would you expect other than to get flustered?
malcolmxy
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3/26/2013 12:17:22 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 3/26/2013 12:07:34 PM, wrichcirw wrote:
At 3/26/2013 11:52:36 AM, malcolmxy wrote:
At 3/26/2013 11:42:19 AM, wrichcirw wrote:
Another casualty from all this:

David Uthlaut was Tillman's commanding officer (CO) at the time. He recommended against the splitting of the convoy in the canyon that led to the confusion surrounding Tillman's death. Uthlaut was subsequently hit by shrapnel in the face and body seriously wounding him on the same day that Tillman died. He was accused of dereliction of duty and expelled from the Rangers.

This guy was following the footsteps of Douglas MacArthur:

http://sports.espn.go.com...
http://tucsoncitizen.com...

I think he was the Platoon Leader at the time, not Tillman's CO, because the CO was the guy who ordered the indiscriminate 360 degrees of automatic fire to be let loose anytime anyone in the battalion got hit with shrapnel from an IED, which would be the whole reason for this cover up, and that guy was a Colonel (probably full if he commanded an entire battalion) as opposed to this guy who was a 1st Lieutenant.

This guy sounds like middle management.

Nonono, the 360 is a separate incident, wholly irrelevant to the Pat Tillman story. I know, the article goes all over the place.

That was a different CO.

Although holding command in the same sense as others officers, the individual in charge of a platoon, the smallest unit of soldiers led by a commissioned officer, typically a second lieutenant, is referred to as the platoon leader, not the platoon commander. This officer does have command of the soldiers under him but does not have many of the command responsibilities inherent to higher echelons. For example, a platoon leader cannot issue non-judicial punishment.

Non-commissioned officers may be said to have charge of certain smaller military units.
They cannot, however, hold command as they lack the requisite authority granted by the head of state to do so.


Please don't make me list my military bona fides again.

I know what you're saying, and this dude sounds like he got the shaft, and while Tillman was under his direct command, he was not Tillman's CO. He was a Platoon Leader.
War is over, if you want it.

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wrichcirw
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3/26/2013 12:23:17 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 3/26/2013 12:17:22 PM, malcolmxy wrote:
At 3/26/2013 12:07:34 PM, wrichcirw wrote:
At 3/26/2013 11:52:36 AM, malcolmxy wrote:
At 3/26/2013 11:42:19 AM, wrichcirw wrote:
Another casualty from all this:

David Uthlaut was Tillman's commanding officer (CO) at the time. He recommended against the splitting of the convoy in the canyon that led to the confusion surrounding Tillman's death. Uthlaut was subsequently hit by shrapnel in the face and body seriously wounding him on the same day that Tillman died. He was accused of dereliction of duty and expelled from the Rangers.

This guy was following the footsteps of Douglas MacArthur:

http://sports.espn.go.com...
http://tucsoncitizen.com...

I think he was the Platoon Leader at the time, not Tillman's CO, because the CO was the guy who ordered the indiscriminate 360 degrees of automatic fire to be let loose anytime anyone in the battalion got hit with shrapnel from an IED, which would be the whole reason for this cover up, and that guy was a Colonel (probably full if he commanded an entire battalion) as opposed to this guy who was a 1st Lieutenant.

This guy sounds like middle management.

Nonono, the 360 is a separate incident, wholly irrelevant to the Pat Tillman story. I know, the article goes all over the place.

That was a different CO.

Although holding command in the same sense as others officers, the individual in charge of a platoon, the smallest unit of soldiers led by a commissioned officer, typically a second lieutenant, is referred to as the platoon leader, not the platoon commander. This officer does have command of the soldiers under him but does not have many of the command responsibilities inherent to higher echelons. For example, a platoon leader cannot issue non-judicial punishment.

Non-commissioned officers may be said to have charge of certain smaller military units.
They cannot, however, hold command as they lack the requisite authority granted by the head of state to do so.


Please don't make me list my military bona fides again.

I know what you're saying, and this dude sounds like he got the shaft, and while Tillman was under his direct command, he was not Tillman's CO. He was a Platoon Leader.

Platoon leader and battalion commander are formal positions. CO is just CO.
At 8/9/2013 9:41:24 AM, wrichcirw wrote:
If you are civil with me, I will be civil to you. If you decide to bring unreasonable animosity to bear in a reasonable discussion, then what would you expect other than to get flustered?
malcolmxy
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3/26/2013 12:23:20 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 3/26/2013 12:07:34 PM, wrichcirw wrote:

Nonono, the 360 is a separate incident, wholly irrelevant to the Pat Tillman story. I know, the article goes all over the place.

That was a different CO.

I don't think it was irrelevant. I think this, and other incidents of indiscriminate killing of civilians is likely what Tillman was gonna bust wide open in his impending interviews.

If he was murdered, and he was murdered to cover up something, this is the something he was murdered to cover up.

Given that he was a celebrity, and given what he sacrificed to go to into service of his country, and also given that he chose special forces as opposed to some cush desk job, he would have instant credibility in relaying his story to the country and the world.

Given the patriot I believe him to be, I'm sure he would have revealed everything as well.

Now, others have given this story to the press since, but these were smaller outlets and the story never gained any real traction. With Tillman recalling it, it would have.

The assassination theory becomes plausible with this order, so I think it is completely relevant to the crux of your story.
War is over, if you want it.

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3/26/2013 12:23:47 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
NCOs cannot be COs.
At 8/9/2013 9:41:24 AM, wrichcirw wrote:
If you are civil with me, I will be civil to you. If you decide to bring unreasonable animosity to bear in a reasonable discussion, then what would you expect other than to get flustered?
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3/26/2013 12:25:45 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 3/26/2013 12:23:20 PM, malcolmxy wrote:
At 3/26/2013 12:07:34 PM, wrichcirw wrote:

Nonono, the 360 is a separate incident, wholly irrelevant to the Pat Tillman story. I know, the article goes all over the place.

That was a different CO.

I don't think it was irrelevant. I think this, and other incidents of indiscriminate killing of civilians is likely what Tillman was gonna bust wide open in his impending interviews.

If he was murdered, and he was murdered to cover up something, this is the something he was murdered to cover up.

Given that he was a celebrity, and given what he sacrificed to go to into service of his country, and also given that he chose special forces as opposed to some cush desk job, he would have instant credibility in relaying his story to the country and the world.

Given the patriot I believe him to be, I'm sure he would have revealed everything as well.

Now, others have given this story to the press since, but these were smaller outlets and the story never gained any real traction. With Tillman recalling it, it would have.

The assassination theory becomes plausible with this order, so I think it is completely relevant to the crux of your story.

I think you're largely right about this in motive, although you have to realize that this 360 order was given several after Tillman was already dead.
At 8/9/2013 9:41:24 AM, wrichcirw wrote:
If you are civil with me, I will be civil to you. If you decide to bring unreasonable animosity to bear in a reasonable discussion, then what would you expect other than to get flustered?
wrichcirw
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3/26/2013 12:26:44 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 3/26/2013 12:25:45 PM, wrichcirw wrote:

I think you're largely right about this in motive, although you have to realize that this 360 order was given several YEARS after Tillman was already dead.

Corrected.

Tillman died in 2004. This 360 order was revealed to have occurred in 2007, in Iraq, whereas Tillman died in Afghanistan.
At 8/9/2013 9:41:24 AM, wrichcirw wrote:
If you are civil with me, I will be civil to you. If you decide to bring unreasonable animosity to bear in a reasonable discussion, then what would you expect other than to get flustered?
malcolmxy
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3/26/2013 12:30:02 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 3/26/2013 12:23:17 PM, wrichcirw wrote:

Platoon leader and battalion commander are formal positions. CO is just CO.

Yes, but Platoon Leaders are not Platoon COMMANDERS and not able to give general standing orders like "fire in all directions and kill everything standing that doesn't have an American Military Uniform on every time one of the other men in your platoon is hit with an IED".

I thought showing that NCOs can be Platoon Leaders (I knew one of these NCOs. He was the Leader of an Engineering group), I thought this might help the point hit home.

All I was trying to say was that obviously this kid (which is what a Lieutenant straight out of the academy, no matter how highly decorated while there, is) had nothing to do with Tillman's death, because he had no control over the general standing orders of the platoon, nor its deployment into that ridge where Tillman ate it.
War is over, if you want it.

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wrichcirw
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3/26/2013 12:31:15 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
Just to reiterate, I find the 360 order fully justified. It may seem atrocious and monstrous, but so is a woman using an M-16 to kill a dozen men intent on gang-raping her. That woman was IMHO fully justified in doing so, as this battalion commander was in ordering the 360 cover fire.
At 8/9/2013 9:41:24 AM, wrichcirw wrote:
If you are civil with me, I will be civil to you. If you decide to bring unreasonable animosity to bear in a reasonable discussion, then what would you expect other than to get flustered?
malcolmxy
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3/26/2013 12:32:43 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
I also know an E-9 on a nuclear sub who is the commanding officer (group leader) of every other NCO on the boat.

The can't be COs, but they can be unit leaders, which is effectively all this Lieutenant was.
War is over, if you want it.

Meet Dr. Stupid and his assistants - http://www.debate.org...