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Worst Justification for Draft.... Ever

Lordknukle
Posts: 12,788
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3/27/2013 6:55:36 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
"It is in no sense a conscription of the unwilling; it is, rather, selection from a nation which has volunteered in mass."

Woodrow Wilson
"Easy is the descent to Avernus, for the door to the Underworld lies upon both day and night. But to retrace your steps and return to the breezes above- that's the task, that's the toil."
Lordknukle
Posts: 12,788
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3/27/2013 6:58:46 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 3/27/2013 6:57:05 PM, dylancatlow wrote:
If no one is unwilling, then why wouldn't it be voluntary? That's logically absurd.

The justification is something along the lines of Rousseau's bullsh!t social contract.
"Easy is the descent to Avernus, for the door to the Underworld lies upon both day and night. But to retrace your steps and return to the breezes above- that's the task, that's the toil."
dylancatlow
Posts: 12,241
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3/27/2013 7:01:38 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 3/27/2013 6:58:46 PM, Lordknukle wrote:
At 3/27/2013 6:57:05 PM, dylancatlow wrote:
If no one is unwilling, then why wouldn't it be voluntary? That's logically absurd.

The justification is something along the lines of Rousseau's bullsh!t social contract.

A draft is immoral insofar as it's effective and purposeful.
dylancatlow
Posts: 12,241
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3/27/2013 7:04:43 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 3/27/2013 7:01:38 PM, dylancatlow wrote:
At 3/27/2013 6:58:46 PM, Lordknukle wrote:
At 3/27/2013 6:57:05 PM, dylancatlow wrote:
If no one is unwilling, then why wouldn't it be voluntary? That's logically absurd.

The justification is something along the lines of Rousseau's bullsh!t social contract.

A draft is immoral insofar as it's effective and purposeful.

A draft that enlists people who would volunteer anyway isn't really a draft, so Woodrow is crackpot crazy.
My-Self
Posts: 92
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3/27/2013 11:27:10 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 3/27/2013 6:58:46 PM, Lordknukle wrote:
At 3/27/2013 6:57:05 PM, dylancatlow wrote:
If no one is unwilling, then why wouldn't it be voluntary? That's logically absurd.

The justification is something along the lines of Rousseau's bullsh!t social contract.

What's wrong with the social contract?
"Genesis could be compatible with anything. Theologians are great at mental gymnastics." ~ phantom
Lordknukle
Posts: 12,788
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3/28/2013 12:00:23 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 3/27/2013 11:27:10 PM, My-Self wrote:
At 3/27/2013 6:58:46 PM, Lordknukle wrote:
At 3/27/2013 6:57:05 PM, dylancatlow wrote:
If no one is unwilling, then why wouldn't it be voluntary? That's logically absurd.

The justification is something along the lines of Rousseau's bullsh!t social contract.

What's wrong with the social contract?

I ain't signed sh!t.
"Easy is the descent to Avernus, for the door to the Underworld lies upon both day and night. But to retrace your steps and return to the breezes above- that's the task, that's the toil."
Fanboy
Posts: 75
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3/28/2013 12:03:20 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 3/28/2013 12:00:23 AM, Lordknukle wrote:
At 3/27/2013 11:27:10 PM, My-Self wrote:
At 3/27/2013 6:58:46 PM, Lordknukle wrote:
At 3/27/2013 6:57:05 PM, dylancatlow wrote:
If no one is unwilling, then why wouldn't it be voluntary? That's logically absurd.

The justification is something along the lines of Rousseau's bullsh!t social contract.

What's wrong with the social contract?

I ain't signed sh!t.

Rousseau wouldn't claim that you did. Rousseau has at least the most plausible social contract I think.
Lordknukle
Posts: 12,788
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3/28/2013 12:45:44 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 3/28/2013 12:03:20 AM, Fanboy wrote:
At 3/28/2013 12:00:23 AM, Lordknukle wrote:
At 3/27/2013 11:27:10 PM, My-Self wrote:
At 3/27/2013 6:58:46 PM, Lordknukle wrote:
At 3/27/2013 6:57:05 PM, dylancatlow wrote:
If no one is unwilling, then why wouldn't it be voluntary? That's logically absurd.

The justification is something along the lines of Rousseau's bullsh!t social contract.

What's wrong with the social contract?

I ain't signed sh!t.

Rousseau wouldn't claim that you did. Rousseau has at least the most plausible social contract I think.

Right. Instead, simply by being in society, I must subject myself to the "general will" (wtf?) of the society with no qualms about my individuality in it. My individual rights only exist for the benefit of society, which means that they can easily be violated. Whatever the "general will" is, I must abide or be classified as an outcast, heretic, or criminal.

Great social contract.
"Easy is the descent to Avernus, for the door to the Underworld lies upon both day and night. But to retrace your steps and return to the breezes above- that's the task, that's the toil."
Thaddeus
Posts: 6,985
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3/28/2013 12:55:24 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 3/28/2013 12:45:44 PM, Lordknukle wrote:
At 3/28/2013 12:03:20 AM, Fanboy wrote:
At 3/28/2013 12:00:23 AM, Lordknukle wrote:
At 3/27/2013 11:27:10 PM, My-Self wrote:
At 3/27/2013 6:58:46 PM, Lordknukle wrote:
At 3/27/2013 6:57:05 PM, dylancatlow wrote:
If no one is unwilling, then why wouldn't it be voluntary? That's logically absurd.

The justification is something along the lines of Rousseau's bullsh!t social contract.

What's wrong with the social contract?

I ain't signed sh!t.

Rousseau wouldn't claim that you did. Rousseau has at least the most plausible social contract I think.

Right. Instead, simply by being in society, I must subject myself to the "general will" (wtf?) of the society with no qualms about my individuality in it. My individual rights only exist for the benefit of society, which means that they can easily be violated. Whatever the "general will" is, I must abide or be classified as an outcast, heretic, or criminal.

Great social contract.

You choose to continue to remain in society. The vast majority of society has an established conception of what one's role must be in society. Conform to it, or get the hell out.
OMGJustinBieber
Posts: 3,484
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3/28/2013 1:00:57 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 3/27/2013 6:55:36 PM, Lordknukle wrote:
"It is in no sense a conscription of the unwilling; it is, rather, selection from a nation which has volunteered in mass."

Woodrow Wilson

Wilson is highly overrated as a President.

I support the draft in theory but even I find these types of justification dubious at best.
johnnyboy54
Posts: 6,362
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3/28/2013 1:02:53 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 3/28/2013 12:55:24 PM, Thaddeus wrote:
At 3/28/2013 12:45:44 PM, Lordknukle wrote:
At 3/28/2013 12:03:20 AM, Fanboy wrote:
At 3/28/2013 12:00:23 AM, Lordknukle wrote:
At 3/27/2013 11:27:10 PM, My-Self wrote:
At 3/27/2013 6:58:46 PM, Lordknukle wrote:
At 3/27/2013 6:57:05 PM, dylancatlow wrote:
If no one is unwilling, then why wouldn't it be voluntary? That's logically absurd.

The justification is something along the lines of Rousseau's bullsh!t social contract.

What's wrong with the social contract?

I ain't signed sh!t.

Rousseau wouldn't claim that you did. Rousseau has at least the most plausible social contract I think.

Right. Instead, simply by being in society, I must subject myself to the "general will" (wtf?) of the society with no qualms about my individuality in it. My individual rights only exist for the benefit of society, which means that they can easily be violated. Whatever the "general will" is, I must abide or be classified as an outcast, heretic, or criminal.

Great social contract.

You choose to continue to remain in society. The vast majority of society has an established conception of what one's role must be in society. Conform to it, or get the hell out.

I can't tell if you are being serious or kidding. I wouldn't expect you to say this knowing that you are an anarchist.
I didn't order assholes with my whiskey.
Thaddeus
Posts: 6,985
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3/28/2013 1:03:37 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 3/28/2013 1:02:53 PM, johnnyboy54 wrote:
At 3/28/2013 12:55:24 PM, Thaddeus wrote:
At 3/28/2013 12:45:44 PM, Lordknukle wrote:
At 3/28/2013 12:03:20 AM, Fanboy wrote:
At 3/28/2013 12:00:23 AM, Lordknukle wrote:
At 3/27/2013 11:27:10 PM, My-Self wrote:
At 3/27/2013 6:58:46 PM, Lordknukle wrote:
At 3/27/2013 6:57:05 PM, dylancatlow wrote:
If no one is unwilling, then why wouldn't it be voluntary? That's logically absurd.

The justification is something along the lines of Rousseau's bullsh!t social contract.

What's wrong with the social contract?

I ain't signed sh!t.

Rousseau wouldn't claim that you did. Rousseau has at least the most plausible social contract I think.

Right. Instead, simply by being in society, I must subject myself to the "general will" (wtf?) of the society with no qualms about my individuality in it. My individual rights only exist for the benefit of society, which means that they can easily be violated. Whatever the "general will" is, I must abide or be classified as an outcast, heretic, or criminal.

Great social contract.

You choose to continue to remain in society. The vast majority of society has an established conception of what one's role must be in society. Conform to it, or get the hell out.

I can't tell if you are being serious or kidding. I wouldn't expect you to say this knowing that you are an anarchist.

I believe in the above 101%
Lordknukle
Posts: 12,788
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3/28/2013 1:07:17 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 3/28/2013 12:55:24 PM, Thaddeus wrote:
At 3/28/2013 12:45:44 PM, Lordknukle wrote:
At 3/28/2013 12:03:20 AM, Fanboy wrote:
At 3/28/2013 12:00:23 AM, Lordknukle wrote:
At 3/27/2013 11:27:10 PM, My-Self wrote:
At 3/27/2013 6:58:46 PM, Lordknukle wrote:
At 3/27/2013 6:57:05 PM, dylancatlow wrote:
If no one is unwilling, then why wouldn't it be voluntary? That's logically absurd.

The justification is something along the lines of Rousseau's bullsh!t social contract.

What's wrong with the social contract?

I ain't signed sh!t.

Rousseau wouldn't claim that you did. Rousseau has at least the most plausible social contract I think.

Right. Instead, simply by being in society, I must subject myself to the "general will" (wtf?) of the society with no qualms about my individuality in it. My individual rights only exist for the benefit of society, which means that they can easily be violated. Whatever the "general will" is, I must abide or be classified as an outcast, heretic, or criminal.

Great social contract.

You choose to continue to remain in society. The vast majority of society has an established conception of what one's role must be in society. Conform to it, or get the hell out.

I know that you're trolling, but this argument is actually used very often.

It operates on the unfounded axioms that a) rights are solely gotten from society b) that I make an implied contract with the masses by stepping into a country c) that my individual rights are irrelevant and d) that whatever the majority of the individuals within a society say must be followed. There are also a lot of others, but I really don't want to list all of them.
"Easy is the descent to Avernus, for the door to the Underworld lies upon both day and night. But to retrace your steps and return to the breezes above- that's the task, that's the toil."
Lordknukle
Posts: 12,788
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3/28/2013 1:07:55 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 3/28/2013 1:00:57 PM, OMGJustinBieber wrote:
At 3/27/2013 6:55:36 PM, Lordknukle wrote:
"It is in no sense a conscription of the unwilling; it is, rather, selection from a nation which has volunteered in mass."

Woodrow Wilson

Wilson is highly overrated as a President.

To say the least. He was a power-hungry fascist protege.
"Easy is the descent to Avernus, for the door to the Underworld lies upon both day and night. But to retrace your steps and return to the breezes above- that's the task, that's the toil."
My-Self
Posts: 92
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3/28/2013 1:45:44 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 3/28/2013 12:00:23 AM, Lordknukle wrote:
At 3/27/2013 11:27:10 PM, My-Self wrote:
What's wrong with the social contract?

I ain't signed sh!t.

There are many types of contracts which do not require a signature.
"Genesis could be compatible with anything. Theologians are great at mental gymnastics." ~ phantom
Lordknukle
Posts: 12,788
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3/28/2013 3:12:01 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 3/28/2013 1:45:44 PM, My-Self wrote:
At 3/28/2013 12:00:23 AM, Lordknukle wrote:
At 3/27/2013 11:27:10 PM, My-Self wrote:
What's wrong with the social contract?

I ain't signed sh!t.

There are many types of contracts which do not require a signature.

Implied or non-explicit contracts can't be proven.
"Easy is the descent to Avernus, for the door to the Underworld lies upon both day and night. But to retrace your steps and return to the breezes above- that's the task, that's the toil."
Sidewalker
Posts: 3,713
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3/28/2013 3:58:50 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 3/27/2013 6:55:36 PM, Lordknukle wrote:
"It is in no sense a conscription of the unwilling; it is, rather, selection from a nation which has volunteered in mass."

Woodrow Wilson

Woodrow Wilson has been dead for almost 90 years, perhaps it's not something to get too bunged up over.
"It is one of the commonest of mistakes to consider that the limit of our power of perception is also the limit of all there is to perceive." " C. W. Leadbeater
My-Self
Posts: 92
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3/28/2013 4:04:20 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 3/28/2013 3:12:01 PM, Lordknukle wrote:
At 3/28/2013 1:45:44 PM, My-Self wrote:
At 3/28/2013 12:00:23 AM, Lordknukle wrote:
At 3/27/2013 11:27:10 PM, My-Self wrote:
What's wrong with the social contract?

I ain't signed sh!t.

There are many types of contracts which do not require a signature.

Implied or non-explicit contracts can't be proven.

That doesn't change the significance of the contract. In fact, I would argue that most contracts are not written. Even million-dollar deals can be done over the phone.

One example: When you go into a restaurant, there is an implied contract that the restauranteur will deliver the food you order as you've specified, promptly, at the correct temperature, and without being rude. This is why if you've had a bad experience at a restaurant, the restauranteur allows you to leave without paying, even though he has spent money on the food and labor.
"Genesis could be compatible with anything. Theologians are great at mental gymnastics." ~ phantom
dylancatlow
Posts: 12,241
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3/28/2013 4:09:36 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 3/28/2013 4:04:20 PM, My-Self wrote:
At 3/28/2013 3:12:01 PM, Lordknukle wrote:
At 3/28/2013 1:45:44 PM, My-Self wrote:
At 3/28/2013 12:00:23 AM, Lordknukle wrote:
At 3/27/2013 11:27:10 PM, My-Self wrote:
What's wrong with the social contract?

I ain't signed sh!t.

There are many types of contracts which do not require a signature.

Implied or non-explicit contracts can't be proven.

That doesn't change the significance of the contract. In fact, I would argue that most contracts are not written. Even million-dollar deals can be done over the phone.

One example: When you go into a restaurant, there is an implied contract that the restauranteur will deliver the food you order as you've specified, promptly, at the correct temperature, and without being rude. This is why if you've had a bad experience at a restaurant, the restauranteur allows you to leave without paying, even though he has spent money on the food and labor.

The draft is immoral because it binds people to a contract against their will. A contract that puts their life in danger when they have not initiated force on anyone else to deserve such a punishment. Your situation does not reflect this because its implied food will be brought just as much as it would be implied in a verbal agreement, and thus it is binding and mutually agreed upon.
Lordknukle
Posts: 12,788
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3/28/2013 4:22:15 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 3/28/2013 4:04:20 PM, My-Self wrote:
At 3/28/2013 3:12:01 PM, Lordknukle wrote:
At 3/28/2013 1:45:44 PM, My-Self wrote:
At 3/28/2013 12:00:23 AM, Lordknukle wrote:
At 3/27/2013 11:27:10 PM, My-Self wrote:
What's wrong with the social contract?

I ain't signed sh!t.

There are many types of contracts which do not require a signature.

Implied or non-explicit contracts can't be proven.

That doesn't change the significance of the contract. In fact, I would argue that most contracts are not written. Even million-dollar deals can be done over the phone.

One example: When you go into a restaurant, there is an implied contract that the restauranteur will deliver the food you order as you've specified, promptly, at the correct temperature, and without being rude. This is why if you've had a bad experience at a restaurant, the restauranteur allows you to leave without paying, even though he has spent money on the food and labor.

It's not a contract- it's an expectation.

Either way, that expectation is something that is obvious. Implicit acceptance into being drafted simply due to living in a country is not obvious.
"Easy is the descent to Avernus, for the door to the Underworld lies upon both day and night. But to retrace your steps and return to the breezes above- that's the task, that's the toil."
Lordknukle
Posts: 12,788
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3/28/2013 4:22:44 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
And implied contracts don't (and can't) stand up in any serious legal proceeding.
"Easy is the descent to Avernus, for the door to the Underworld lies upon both day and night. But to retrace your steps and return to the breezes above- that's the task, that's the toil."
My-Self
Posts: 92
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3/28/2013 8:58:05 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 3/28/2013 4:22:15 PM, Lordknukle wrote:
It's not a contract- it's an expectation.

http://en.wikipedia.org...

Either way, that expectation is something that is obvious. Implicit acceptance into being drafted simply due to living in a country is not obvious.

I'm not defending Woodrow Wilson's statement, because I don't agree with conscription. I do believe in the social contract for government's existence though.
"Genesis could be compatible with anything. Theologians are great at mental gymnastics." ~ phantom
Lordknukle
Posts: 12,788
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3/28/2013 9:34:51 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 3/28/2013 8:58:05 PM, My-Self wrote:
At 3/28/2013 4:22:15 PM, Lordknukle wrote:
It's not a contract- it's an expectation.

http://en.wikipedia.org...

You were arguing for an IMPLIED contract. That is not the same as a verbal contract.

Either way, that expectation is something that is obvious. Implicit acceptance into being drafted simply due to living in a country is not obvious.

I'm not defending Woodrow Wilson's statement, because I don't agree with conscription. I do believe in the social contract for government's existence though.

I don't. See how easy unsubstantiated general retorts of opinion are?
"Easy is the descent to Avernus, for the door to the Underworld lies upon both day and night. But to retrace your steps and return to the breezes above- that's the task, that's the toil."