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No Immigration Reform With an Open Border

Aned
Posts: 53
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3/31/2013 4:00:47 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
Passing an immigration reform while the border is unsecure is an irresponsible act. As long as illegal aliens and drugs are smuggled across our porous border, no immigration reform should pass. Instead, what we need is a reform to stop all the illegal trafficking.
DanT
Posts: 5,693
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3/31/2013 10:48:35 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 3/31/2013 4:00:47 AM, Aned wrote:
Passing an immigration reform while the border is unsecure is an irresponsible act. As long as illegal aliens and drugs are smuggled across our porous border, no immigration reform should pass. Instead, what we need is a reform to stop all the illegal trafficking.

We need both; without immigration reform it would be pointless to increase border security.

I believe we should not just deport illegals. We should execute them for covert activity. If they are citizens of another country, illegally living and working in the US, while using stolen SS#s, than the penalty should be death.
"Chemical weapons are no different than any other types of weapons."~Lordknukle
DoubtingDave
Posts: 380
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3/31/2013 10:56:31 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 3/31/2013 10:48:35 PM, DanT wrote:
At 3/31/2013 4:00:47 AM, Aned wrote:
Passing an immigration reform while the border is unsecure is an irresponsible act. As long as illegal aliens and drugs are smuggled across our porous border, no immigration reform should pass. Instead, what we need is a reform to stop all the illegal trafficking.

We need both; without immigration reform it would be pointless to increase border security.

I believe we should not just deport illegals. We should execute them for covert activity. If they are citizens of another country, illegally living and working in the US, while using stolen SS#s, than the penalty should be death.

I disagree. I think there should be tougher penalties, but death maybe too tough especially for children of undocumented immagrants.
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DanT
Posts: 5,693
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3/31/2013 11:13:24 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 3/31/2013 10:56:31 PM, DoubtingDave wrote:
At 3/31/2013 10:48:35 PM, DanT wrote:
At 3/31/2013 4:00:47 AM, Aned wrote:
Passing an immigration reform while the border is unsecure is an irresponsible act. As long as illegal aliens and drugs are smuggled across our porous border, no immigration reform should pass. Instead, what we need is a reform to stop all the illegal trafficking.

We need both; without immigration reform it would be pointless to increase border security.

I believe we should not just deport illegals. We should execute them for covert activity. If they are citizens of another country, illegally living and working in the US, while using stolen SS#s, than the penalty should be death.

I disagree. I think there should be tougher penalties, but death maybe too tough especially for children of undocumented immagrants.

The children won't be held accountable for the crimes of their parents. Just as the children of spies arn't held accountable for their parent's crimes.
"Chemical weapons are no different than any other types of weapons."~Lordknukle
Khaos_Mage
Posts: 23,214
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3/31/2013 11:41:57 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
What I never understood was the "anchor baby" scenario...

So, mother (maybe father) risk life and limb to get to America to have their child be born a citizen. Fine. But, why not deport the parents? They wanted a better life for their child, and they theoretically will have it. When the child is of age, they can vouch for the parents.

I know it's a tough stance, but the child is a citizen, not the parents.
My work here is, finally, done.
Aned
Posts: 53
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4/1/2013 4:18:01 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
Death penalty would be kind of severe, but they could be taken to labor camps and stay there under custody for at least five years.
Ragnar_Rahl
Posts: 19,297
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4/1/2013 11:12:14 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
Dan, you trolling or something, or are you really some disgusting aggressor?

Don't want people to have to lie to exist? Then don't make it so they have to lie to exist. They didn't CHOOSE to be citizens of that other country-- and in no meaningful conception of the word citizen ARE they. They chose voluntary exile to here instead.

Opening the borders IS the correct immigration reform. As in, don't even bother handing out permits. You want to be here, be here. You want to do drugs, do drugs. Means a whole lot less violence all around, and at no cost to anyone except those who CHOOSe to do drugs. (incidentally most illegal immigrants do not smuggle drugs).
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Ragnar_Rahl
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4/1/2013 11:13:24 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 4/1/2013 4:18:01 AM, Aned wrote:
Death penalty would be kind of severe, but they could be taken to labor camps and stay there under custody for at least five years.

Umm... a lot of them pretty much come here for that anyway. All you're doing is making it less efficient by setting up government camps instead of having them do below-minimum-wage labor in the black market.
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drhead
Posts: 1,475
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4/1/2013 11:18:38 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 3/31/2013 11:13:24 PM, DanT wrote:
At 3/31/2013 10:56:31 PM, DoubtingDave wrote:
At 3/31/2013 10:48:35 PM, DanT wrote:
At 3/31/2013 4:00:47 AM, Aned wrote:
Passing an immigration reform while the border is unsecure is an irresponsible act. As long as illegal aliens and drugs are smuggled across our porous border, no immigration reform should pass. Instead, what we need is a reform to stop all the illegal trafficking.

We need both; without immigration reform it would be pointless to increase border security.

I believe we should not just deport illegals. We should execute them for covert activity. If they are citizens of another country, illegally living and working in the US, while using stolen SS#s, than the penalty should be death.

I disagree. I think there should be tougher penalties, but death maybe too tough especially for children of undocumented immagrants.

The children won't be held accountable for the crimes of their parents. Just as the children of spies arn't held accountable for their parent's crimes.

The problem here is that you are assuming that killing a child's parents does no harm to the child.
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DanT
Posts: 5,693
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4/1/2013 12:08:04 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 4/1/2013 11:12:14 AM, Ragnar_Rahl wrote:
Dan, you trolling or something, or are you really some disgusting aggressor?

Nice ad hominem attack. What illegals do is tantamount to espionage and should be treated as such. It is a great breach in national security, and simply deporting them is too lenient. If they are here undocumented, using another person's government issued identification number, taking money out of our economy, while mooching off the taxpayers, than they deserve to be treated as spies.

Don't want people to have to lie to exist? Then don't make it so they have to lie to exist.
You completely skipped over the first half of my post didn't you? I said no matter how tough you beef up security, it would be pointless without immigration reform.
I agree with you on this point, but there will always be illegals no matter what the policy is; it is for this reason we need to punish offenders appropriately.
They didn't CHOOSE to be citizens of that other country-- and in no meaningful conception of the word citizen ARE they.
They chose to remain citizens of that country, and they chose to break our laws.
They chose voluntary exile to here instead.

They chose to break our laws. Don't sugar coat it. Even exiles are required to abide by the laws of the country they are in.
Opening the borders IS the correct immigration reform.
As in, don't even bother handing out permits. You want to be here, be here.
Thats BS. That would threaten national security.
You want to do drugs, do drugs.
I agree. Prohibition never works.
Means a whole lot less violence all around, and at no cost to anyone except those who CHOOSe to do drugs. (incidentally most illegal immigrants do not smuggle drugs).
Why are you bringing up drug, when my concern is national security?
"Chemical weapons are no different than any other types of weapons."~Lordknukle
DanT
Posts: 5,693
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4/1/2013 12:10:00 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 4/1/2013 11:18:38 AM, drhead wrote:
At 3/31/2013 11:13:24 PM, DanT wrote:
At 3/31/2013 10:56:31 PM, DoubtingDave wrote:
At 3/31/2013 10:48:35 PM, DanT wrote:
At 3/31/2013 4:00:47 AM, Aned wrote:
Passing an immigration reform while the border is unsecure is an irresponsible act. As long as illegal aliens and drugs are smuggled across our porous border, no immigration reform should pass. Instead, what we need is a reform to stop all the illegal trafficking.

We need both; without immigration reform it would be pointless to increase border security.

I believe we should not just deport illegals. We should execute them for covert activity. If they are citizens of another country, illegally living and working in the US, while using stolen SS#s, than the penalty should be death.

I disagree. I think there should be tougher penalties, but death maybe too tough especially for children of undocumented immagrants.

The children won't be held accountable for the crimes of their parents. Just as the children of spies arn't held accountable for their parent's crimes.

The problem here is that you are assuming that killing a child's parents does no harm to the child.

That's the parent's job to take into consideration. If a serial killer is a father or mother, should we take into consideration their parental status during sentencing?
"Chemical weapons are no different than any other types of weapons."~Lordknukle
16kadams
Posts: 10,497
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4/1/2013 2:56:40 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 4/1/2013 12:08:04 PM, DanT wrote:
At 4/1/2013 11:12:14 AM, Ragnar_Rahl wrote:
Dan, you trolling or something, or are you really some disgusting aggressor?

Nice ad hominem attack. What illegals do is tantamount to espionage and should be treated as such. It is a great breach in national security, and simply deporting them is too lenient. If they are here undocumented, using another person's government issued identification number, taking money out of our economy, while mooching off the taxpayers, than they deserve to be treated as spies.

Don't want people to have to lie to exist? Then don't make it so they have to lie to exist.
You completely skipped over the first half of my post didn't you? I said no matter how tough you beef up security, it would be pointless without immigration reform.
I agree with you on this point, but there will always be illegals no matter what the policy is; it is for this reason we need to punish offenders appropriately.
They didn't CHOOSE to be citizens of that other country-- and in no meaningful conception of the word citizen ARE they.
They chose to remain citizens of that country, and they chose to break our laws.
They chose voluntary exile to here instead.

They chose to break our laws. Don't sugar coat it. Even exiles are required to abide by the laws of the country they are in.
Opening the borders IS the correct immigration reform.
As in, don't even bother handing out permits. You want to be here, be here.
Thats BS. That would threaten national security.
You want to do drugs, do drugs.
I agree. Prohibition never works.
Means a whole lot less violence all around, and at no cost to anyone except those who CHOOSe to do drugs. (incidentally most illegal immigrants do not smuggle drugs).
Why are you bringing up drug, when my concern is national security?

If proof surfaced that immigrants weren't bad, would you then support legalizing immigration?
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Ragnar_Rahl
Posts: 19,297
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4/1/2013 3:44:19 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 4/1/2013 12:08:04 PM, DanT wrote:
At 4/1/2013 11:12:14 AM, Ragnar_Rahl wrote:
Dan, you trolling or something, or are you really some disgusting aggressor?

Nice ad hominem attack. What illegals do is tantamount to espionage
No it's not. Espionage involves TAKING INFORMATION.

and should be treated as such. It is a great breach in national security, and simply deporting them is too lenient. If they are here undocumented, using another person's government issued identification number, taking money out of our economy, while mooching off the taxpayers, than they deserve to be treated as spies.
None of that has anything to do with national security, and "taking money out of our economy" is socialist nonsense. Illegal immigrants signing up for welfare is kind of a bad idea if they don't get caught, that's why they are so desperate to work low wage jobs.

They didn't CHOOSE to be citizens of that other country-- and in no meaningful conception of the word citizen ARE they.
They chose to remain citizens of that country
Umm, no they don't. You're living in some magic fairy land where people can just become US citizens whenever they want.
and they chose to break our laws.
Because it's a necessary part of survival.

They chose voluntary exile to here instead.

They chose to break our laws.
Because it's a necessary part of survival.

Opening the borders IS the correct immigration reform.
As in, don't even bother handing out permits. You want to be here, be here.
Thats BS. That would threaten national security.
How? How is a bunch of beaten down brown people crossing the border to pick grapes going to threaten national security? If they're moving in formation, you'll notice it. It's not like they can get a security clearance.

Why are you bringing up drug, when my concern is national security?

OP brought up drugs, and you haven't substantiated national security concerns.
It came to be at its height. It was commanded to command. It was a capital before its first stone was laid. It was a monument to the spirit of man.
DanT
Posts: 5,693
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4/1/2013 4:32:24 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 4/1/2013 3:44:19 PM, Ragnar_Rahl wrote:
At 4/1/2013 12:08:04 PM, DanT wrote:
At 4/1/2013 11:12:14 AM, Ragnar_Rahl wrote:
Dan, you trolling or something, or are you really some disgusting aggressor?

Nice ad hominem attack. What illegals do is tantamount to espionage
No it's not. Espionage involves TAKING INFORMATION.

Tantamount means "Equivalent in seriousness to"

and should be treated as such. It is a great breach in national security, and simply deporting them is too lenient. If they are here undocumented, using another person's government issued identification number, taking money out of our economy, while mooching off the taxpayers, than they deserve to be treated as spies.
None of that has anything to do with national security,
You don't think having undocumented foreigners in this country, using someone else's government issued Identification code, is a threat to national security?
At what point does it become a threat to national security?
and "taking money out of our economy" is socialist nonsense.
Now you are calling me socialist? LMAO Again with the ad hominem attacks.

Illegal immigrants signing up for welfare is kind of a bad idea if they don't get caught,
but if they do get caught it is a good idea? WTF?
that's why they are so desperate to work low wage jobs.

They work low wage jobs, so they don't have to compete with people legally eligible to work. That's why they work below minimum wage or work laborious jobs below the equilibrium wage to avoid competition.
They didn't CHOOSE to be citizens of that other country-- and in no meaningful conception of the word citizen ARE they.
They chose to remain citizens of that country
Umm, no they don't. You're living in some magic fairy land where people can just become US citizens whenever they want.
I never said it was an instant process. I said they chose to remain citizens of their country, rather than wait in line like everyone else.
Do you advocate sneaking into the cinema, simply because the cinemas have is a lines? That too is illegal.
and they chose to break our laws.
Because it's a necessary part of survival.

No, they choose to break the law, because they do not respect the law. They believe they are above the law. Noone is above the law, regardless of personal circumstances; not even our own government.
They chose voluntary exile to here instead.

They chose to break our laws.
Because it's a necessary part of survival.

Again, no-one is above the law. When the Jews fled Nazi Germany, they respected our laws; they didn't try to sneak in the back door. Those are the type of people we want here; not someone who thinks they are above the law. There are people in much worse scenarios, who immigrate properly.
Opening the borders IS the correct immigration reform.
As in, don't even bother handing out permits. You want to be here, be here.
Thats BS. That would threaten national security.
How? How is a bunch of beaten down brown people crossing the border to pick grapes going to threaten national security?
A.) it's not just brown people. Stop being racist. There are also Canadian illegals, and we have had issues Norwegian illegals as well.
B.) they threaten our national security numerous ways. One way is economically, another way is the increased border violence. Coyotes, and Cartels both increase border violence, and are both fueled by illegal immigration. There are also illegal immigrants who's children join mafias, and gangs to help support their family. Than there are illegals who drink and drive, and commit hit and runs; this has actually been a major problem. Than there are the more obvious security issues, such as spies, or terrorists who enter the US illegally and are supported by the same criminal methods as the illegals (such as identity fraud, and Coyotes). The list of security threats goes on.
If they're moving in formation, you'll notice it. It's not like they can get a security clearance.

You would be surprised how close an illegal can get to public officials without them knowing; especially with a fake SS#. Lawn services, house cleaning, construction, maintenance, and so on.

Why are you bringing up drug, when my concern is national security?

OP brought up drugs, and you haven't substantiated national security concerns.
Yes I have.
"Chemical weapons are no different than any other types of weapons."~Lordknukle
DanT
Posts: 5,693
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4/1/2013 4:33:54 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 4/1/2013 2:56:40 PM, 16kadams wrote:
At 4/1/2013 12:08:04 PM, DanT wrote:
At 4/1/2013 11:12:14 AM, Ragnar_Rahl wrote:
Dan, you trolling or something, or are you really some disgusting aggressor?

Nice ad hominem attack. What illegals do is tantamount to espionage and should be treated as such. It is a great breach in national security, and simply deporting them is too lenient. If they are here undocumented, using another person's government issued identification number, taking money out of our economy, while mooching off the taxpayers, than they deserve to be treated as spies.

Don't want people to have to lie to exist? Then don't make it so they have to lie to exist.
You completely skipped over the first half of my post didn't you? I said no matter how tough you beef up security, it would be pointless without immigration reform.
I agree with you on this point, but there will always be illegals no matter what the policy is; it is for this reason we need to punish offenders appropriately.
They didn't CHOOSE to be citizens of that other country-- and in no meaningful conception of the word citizen ARE they.
They chose to remain citizens of that country, and they chose to break our laws.
They chose voluntary exile to here instead.

They chose to break our laws. Don't sugar coat it. Even exiles are required to abide by the laws of the country they are in.
Opening the borders IS the correct immigration reform.
As in, don't even bother handing out permits. You want to be here, be here.
Thats BS. That would threaten national security.
You want to do drugs, do drugs.
I agree. Prohibition never works.
Means a whole lot less violence all around, and at no cost to anyone except those who CHOOSe to do drugs. (incidentally most illegal immigrants do not smuggle drugs).
Why are you bringing up drug, when my concern is national security?

If proof surfaced that immigrants weren't bad, would you then support legalizing immigration?
Immigrants are not bad, they are good. Illegal immigrants are bad, because they break the law. Do you know the difference between immigration and illega immigration? If not, please leave the discussion.
"Chemical weapons are no different than any other types of weapons."~Lordknukle
Aned
Posts: 53
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4/1/2013 10:22:33 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
Bush cared about stoping Mexicans from coming and even traveled frequently to the border to find out what was going on. Obama, on the contrary, is not showing that kind of will. I hope Jeff Bush will run for president.
Ragnar_Rahl
Posts: 19,297
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4/2/2013 2:16:00 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 4/1/2013 4:32:24 PM, DanT wrote:
At 4/1/2013 3:44:19 PM, Ragnar_Rahl wrote:
At 4/1/2013 12:08:04 PM, DanT wrote:
At 4/1/2013 11:12:14 AM, Ragnar_Rahl wrote:
Dan, you trolling or something, or are you really some disgusting aggressor?

Nice ad hominem attack. What illegals do is tantamount to espionage
No it's not. Espionage involves TAKING INFORMATION.

Tantamount means "Equivalent in seriousness to"
Which makes yours a statement requiring evidence.

None of that has anything to do with national security,
You don't think having undocumented foreigners in this country, using someone else's government issued Identification code, is a threat to national security?
Um, no. How would it be?

At what point does it become a threat to national security?
You tell me, and HOW.

and "taking money out of our economy" is socialist nonsense.
Now you are calling me socialist? LMAO Again with the ad hominem attacks.
The notion that there exists such a thing as "our economy" implies socialism. "Taking money out" is zero sum reasoning which leads to socialism.


Illegal immigrants signing up for welfare is kind of a bad idea if they don't get caught,
but if they do get caught it is a good idea? WTF?
I intended to say "if they don't want to get caught."

They work low wage jobs, so they don't have to compete with people legally eligible to work.
They have to compete. They just happen to win.

That's why they work below minimum wage or work laborious jobs below the equilibrium wage to avoid competition.
That is to say, to win the competition. The price competition.

They didn't CHOOSE to be citizens of that other country-- and in no meaningful conception of the word citizen ARE they.
They chose to remain citizens of that country
Umm, no they don't. You're living in some magic fairy land where people can just become US citizens whenever they want.
I never said it was an instant process.
You implied it was even possible for most people.

I said they chose to remain citizens of their country, rather than wait in line like everyone else.
As in, wait literally forever unless they are highly skilled.

Do you advocate sneaking into the cinema, simply because the cinemas have is a lines? That too is illegal.
A cinema is something called private property. Someone had to build that.

No one built the country, and the job the illegal immigrant wants is at a place built or purchased by the guy who wants to hire him.

No, they choose to break the law, because they do not respect the law. They believe they are above the law
They believe their survival is more important than law.

Noone is above the law
Then we must all be low indeed, for the law in question is low filth.

\

Again, no-one is above the law. When the Jews fled Nazi Germany, they respected our laws; they didn't try to sneak in the back door.
They didn't respect the laws of the British authority in Palestine. Because, y'know,s survival was more important than obeying a bunch of racist laws.

A.) it's not just brown people. Stop being racist. There are also Canadian illegals, and we have had issues Norwegian illegals as well.
I wasn't being racist, I was asking if your reasons were racial.

B.) they threaten our national security numerous ways. One way is economically
Socialist nonsense.

another way is the increased border violence. Coyotes, and Cartels both increase border violence
There's this thing called "anti-immigration laws." THAT causes ALL the border violence. Remove those, open the border, and there is suddenly no longer a reason for border violence. Strike the goddamn root. Anyway, Boberto Grapepicker is not responsible for Jose Coyote or Comandante Cocaineface's actions.

and are both fueled by illegal immigration. There are also illegal immigrants who's children join mafias, and gangs to help support their family. Than there are illegals who drink and drive, and commit hit and runs; this has actually been a major problem.
You realize natives do the same thing? Why not just kick everyone the f*** out if you aren't racist?

Than there are the more obvious security issues, such as spies, or terrorists who enter the US illegally and are supported by the same criminal methods as the illegals (such as identity fraud, and Coyotes).
I've never heard of a terrorist or spy who crossed the border illegally from Mexico, nor a spy. I've heard of the Rosenbergs, or a bunch of people who flew in from France legally, or a bunch of natural-born citizens who have committed espionage or terrorism.

You would be surprised how close an illegal can get to public officials without them knowing; especially with a fake SS#. Lawn services, house cleaning, construction, maintenance, and so on.
Which is a great way to assassinate that official. And pretty damn useless for acquiring information. Forgive me if I'm not willing to sentence billions to an outdoor prison to prevent some idiot politician from slightly increasing his chance of being assassinated by hiring the wrong guy to mow his lawn.

(hint hint: If you talk about classified info in front of the lawn guy, native born or not, you are disqualified for security clearance).

Yes I have.
No, you really haven't, just a bunch of imagined bullcrap you haven't even gone to the trouble of imagining. In the real world, terrorists are either domestic or cross the border legally. In the real world, spies are almost always domestic. Just look at how US intelligence handlers work-- they wanna spy on a country, they HIRE NATIVES. The US intelligence officer's job is to be a hirer and a handler, not to actually be the spy. Why? Because foreigners almost never get security clearances, unless they're a big enough honcho that they can afford to get in legally.
It came to be at its height. It was commanded to command. It was a capital before its first stone was laid. It was a monument to the spirit of man.
Ragnar_Rahl
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4/2/2013 2:17:26 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
Illegal immigrants are bad, because they break the law. Do you know the difference between immigration and illega immigration?
Do you know the difference between law and justice?
It came to be at its height. It was commanded to command. It was a capital before its first stone was laid. It was a monument to the spirit of man.
Ragnar_Rahl
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4/2/2013 10:52:53 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 4/1/2013 10:22:33 PM, Aned wrote:
Bush cared about stoping Mexicans from coming and even traveled frequently to the border to find out what was going on. Obama, on the contrary, is not showing that kind of will. I hope Jeff Bush will run for president.

Btw the Obama administration deports way way more people than Bush did. Ugh but check your facts.
It came to be at its height. It was commanded to command. It was a capital before its first stone was laid. It was a monument to the spirit of man.
OberHerr
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4/2/2013 10:54:57 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 4/2/2013 10:52:53 AM, Ragnar_Rahl wrote:
At 4/1/2013 10:22:33 PM, Aned wrote:
Bush cared about stoping Mexicans from coming and even traveled frequently to the border to find out what was going on. Obama, on the contrary, is not showing that kind of will. I hope Jeff Bush will run for president.

Btw the Obama administration deports way way more people than Bush did. Ugh but check your facts.

But.....but......Bush was a racist RepubliKKKan! And Obama is a good, tolerant, African-American Democrat!
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