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Taxes and Libertarianism

Zaradi
Posts: 14,124
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4/1/2013 11:08:30 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
I never really understood the whole logic behind why taxes are such a horrible thing according to the libertarian. I never really had a problem with the whole smaller government thing and all that, but the whole tax logic doesn't make a whole lot of sense to me.

Is it like a Nozick-ian (totally just made that up on the spot) objection that's basically saying that taxes are theft? Can taxes ever be a good thing? If we get rid of taxes, in what way do we support the government?
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dylancatlow
Posts: 12,244
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4/1/2013 11:14:37 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
I can't speak for all libertarians, but I oppose taxes because it is an unjustifiable and immoral notion that man must live to serve others.
Lordknukle
Posts: 12,788
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4/1/2013 11:16:33 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
"Because it's mine, that's why."
"Easy is the descent to Avernus, for the door to the Underworld lies upon both day and night. But to retrace your steps and return to the breezes above- that's the task, that's the toil."
dylancatlow
Posts: 12,244
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4/1/2013 11:20:31 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 4/1/2013 11:16:33 PM, Lordknukle wrote:
"Because it's mine, that's why."

Actually, that's right. But thanks for insinuating that this notion is somehow ridiculous, because you give a clear picture of an ideology that stares X=X in the face and objects.
dylancatlow
Posts: 12,244
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4/1/2013 11:21:26 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 4/1/2013 11:16:33 PM, Lordknukle wrote:
"Because it's mine, that's why."

NVM, coulda sword that you were being condescending.
dylancatlow
Posts: 12,244
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4/1/2013 11:21:38 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 4/1/2013 11:21:26 PM, dylancatlow wrote:
At 4/1/2013 11:16:33 PM, Lordknukle wrote:
"Because it's mine, that's why."

NVM, coulda sword that you were being condescending.

sworn *
Khaos_Mage
Posts: 23,214
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4/1/2013 11:32:04 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 4/1/2013 11:08:30 PM, Zaradi wrote:
I never really understood the whole logic behind why taxes are such a horrible thing according to the libertarian. I never really had a problem with the whole smaller government thing and all that, but the whole tax logic doesn't make a whole lot of sense to me.

Is it like a Nozick-ian (totally just made that up on the spot) objection that's basically saying that taxes are theft? Can taxes ever be a good thing? If we get rid of taxes, in what way do we support the government?

I think there are a few different types of objections:
1. The "taxes are theft. Period." objection, which is that all taxes are bad. However, I think this argument is generally made by anarchists more than libertarians.
2. The "income taxes are immoral" argument, which is objected by the notion that I should not be taxed simply for earning money. The idea being that sales taxes are moral and just, as I voluntarily pay the tax when I engage in commerce, and never elsewhere.
3. There is also the objection that taxes are not bad, per se, but the way they are being spent (i.e. redistribution) is bad.

I am more the third objection.
My work here is, finally, done.
quarterexchange
Posts: 1,549
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4/1/2013 11:35:46 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 4/1/2013 11:08:30 PM, Zaradi wrote:
Is it like a Nozick-ian (totally just made that up on the spot) objection that's basically saying that taxes are theft?

Yes

Can taxes ever be a good thing?

If they're voluntary

If we get rid of taxes, in what way do we support the government?

A government that exists through coercion doesn't deserve to exist.
I don't discriminate....I hate everybody.
bossyburrito
Posts: 14,075
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4/1/2013 11:39:56 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 4/1/2013 11:16:33 PM, Lordknukle wrote:
"Because it's mine, that's why."

Basically this.
#UnbanTheMadman

"Some will sell their dreams for small desires
Or lose the race to rats
Get caught in ticking traps
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To relax their restless flight
Somewhere out of a memory of lighted streets on quiet nights..."

~ Rush
GeoLaureate8
Posts: 12,252
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4/1/2013 11:58:04 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 4/1/2013 11:14:37 PM, dylancatlow wrote:
I can't speak for all libertarians, but I oppose taxes because it is an unjustifiable and immoral notion that man must live to serve others.

Paying taxes is self-serving.

I pay a small tax in the most convenient manner (I literally do nothing, tax payments are automatic) and I get in return a million miles of roads from coast to coast, national security, a court system to protect my rights and other services requested by the consent of the people.

It's when you get taxation without representation that it becomes a problem. No income tax with a national sales tax would be ideal.
"We must raise the standard of the Old, free, decentralized, and strictly limited Republic."
-- Murray Rothbard

"The worst thing that can happen to a good cause is, not to be skillfully attacked, but to be ineptly defended."
-- Frederic Bastiat
bossyburrito
Posts: 14,075
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4/2/2013 12:17:58 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 4/1/2013 11:58:04 PM, GeoLaureate8 wrote:
At 4/1/2013 11:14:37 PM, dylancatlow wrote:
I can't speak for all libertarians, but I oppose taxes because it is an unjustifiable and immoral notion that man must live to serve others.

Paying taxes is self-serving.

I pay a small tax in the most convenient manner (I literally do nothing, tax payments are automatic) and I get in return a million miles of roads from coast to coast, national security, a court system to protect my rights and other services requested by the consent of the people.

It's when you get taxation without representation that it becomes a problem. No income tax with a national sales tax would be ideal.

Please tell me why you should automatically be under the rule of the government without opting in first.

What if I don't want roads? Do I need to pay for "the common good"?
#UnbanTheMadman

"Some will sell their dreams for small desires
Or lose the race to rats
Get caught in ticking traps
And start to dream of somewhere
To relax their restless flight
Somewhere out of a memory of lighted streets on quiet nights..."

~ Rush
imabench
Posts: 21,206
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4/2/2013 12:46:23 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 4/1/2013 11:58:04 PM, GeoLaureate8 wrote:
At 4/1/2013 11:14:37 PM, dylancatlow wrote:
I can't speak for all libertarians, but I oppose taxes because it is an unjustifiable and immoral notion that man must live to serve others.

Paying taxes is self-serving.

I pay a small tax in the most convenient manner (I literally do nothing, tax payments are automatic) and I get in return a million miles of roads from coast to coast, national security, a court system to protect my rights and other services requested by the consent of the people.

It's when you get taxation without representation that it becomes a problem. No income tax with a national sales tax would be ideal.

Dude its the income tax that often pays for all that other stuff you mentioned before that you are so grateful for, not the itty bitty automatic ones you pay....
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Ragnar_Rahl
Posts: 19,297
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4/2/2013 12:11:19 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
If we get rid of taxes, in what way do we support the government?
You buy services from it. If you don't pay, it doesn't provide the services to you.
It came to be at its height. It was commanded to command. It was a capital before its first stone was laid. It was a monument to the spirit of man.
GeoLaureate8
Posts: 12,252
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4/2/2013 12:27:44 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 4/2/2013 12:17:58 AM, bossyburrito wrote:
At 4/1/2013 11:58:04 PM, GeoLaureate8 wrote:
Paying taxes is self-serving.

I pay a small tax in the most convenient manner (I literally do nothing, tax payments are automatic) and I get in return a million miles of roads from coast to coast, national security, a court system to protect my rights and other services requested by the consent of the people.

It's when you get taxation without representation that it becomes a problem. No income tax with a national sales tax would be ideal.

Please tell me why you should automatically be under the rule of the government without opting in first.

No matter where you are in the world you inherit the conditions of that environment, at least in America you are the government run by the consent of the governed and there, standing in the way of collectivism and democracy is the Constitution.

What if I don't want roads? Do I need to pay for "the common good"?

You do want roads and so does 100% of everybody else. The only people who object to roads are people who bring up hypothetical "what ifs" and then proceed to drive on a road. No person ever has complained about being forced to pay for public roads, that person doesn't exist in reality, only in theory. And before the income tax imposed in 1913, paying taxes was voluntarily occurring in commerce transactions.
"We must raise the standard of the Old, free, decentralized, and strictly limited Republic."
-- Murray Rothbard

"The worst thing that can happen to a good cause is, not to be skillfully attacked, but to be ineptly defended."
-- Frederic Bastiat
bossyburrito
Posts: 14,075
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4/2/2013 1:19:26 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 4/2/2013 12:27:44 PM, GeoLaureate8 wrote:
At 4/2/2013 12:17:58 AM, bossyburrito wrote:
At 4/1/2013 11:58:04 PM, GeoLaureate8 wrote:
Paying taxes is self-serving.

I pay a small tax in the most convenient manner (I literally do nothing, tax payments are automatic) and I get in return a million miles of roads from coast to coast, national security, a court system to protect my rights and other services requested by the consent of the people.

It's when you get taxation without representation that it becomes a problem. No income tax with a national sales tax would be ideal.

Please tell me why you should automatically be under the rule of the government without opting in first.

No matter where you are in the world you inherit the conditions of that environment, at least in America you are the government run by the consent of the governed and there, standing in the way of collectivism and democracy is the Constitution.
I didn't sign any contract stating that I could be governed and taxed when I was born.


What if I don't want roads? Do I need to pay for "the common good"?

You do want roads and so does 100% of everybody else.
You can read my mind?
The only people who object to roads are people who bring up hypothetical "what ifs" and then proceed to drive on a road. No person ever has complained about being forced to pay for public roads, that person doesn't exist in reality, only in theory. And before the income tax imposed in 1913, paying taxes was voluntarily occurring in commerce transactions.

If I already put money into the system, of course I'm going to use the roads. Not doing so would be pointless. That doesn't mean that I like it though.

Do you want me to break into your house, take your wallet, and buy a new TV for you? Why not? Don't you want a TV? Why are you saying that I shouldn't have done that while watching the TV? If you didn't want me to buy it for you, you wouldn't use it, right?
#UnbanTheMadman

"Some will sell their dreams for small desires
Or lose the race to rats
Get caught in ticking traps
And start to dream of somewhere
To relax their restless flight
Somewhere out of a memory of lighted streets on quiet nights..."

~ Rush