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Are we responsible for the North Korea mess?

Sidewalker
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4/9/2013 7:59:13 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
To a great extent, I think we are responsible for the current situation with North Korea.

A basic principle of behavior is that "You get the behavior you reward", it"s not really a debatable concept, you see it in business, raising kids, everywhere, and I think this has been the problem with North Korea; we have rewarded the wrong behavior for decades. This is why the alliance of South Korea and the US needs to accept some responsibility for the current mess with North Korea, and demonstrate to them that their tried and true approach won"t ever work again.

Since the Korean War, for six decades now, North Korea has used angry rhetoric in an extreme, abusive, and contradictory manner to get what it wants. Concessions were always made, but North Korea conceded nothing, every negotiation was met with increased demands, and every compromise suggested was met with an angry rhetoric of denial. For decades the North Korean approach has been consistent, it"s always been harsh and hyperbolic public rhetoric, defiance of international accords, laws, and common sense, creating and exporting long-range missiles, building nuclear capabilities after agreeing not to, and unprovoked attacks which rarely if ever resulted in retaliation.

Again and again, North Korea has defied international accords, agreements, laws and common sense, creating and exporting long-range missiles after promising not to, building nuclear capabilities after agreeing they wouldn"t, and engaging in kidnappings, sabotage and cyber-attacks as a response to repeated SK and US concessions and payoffs, big payoffs, for sixty years. SK leadership has always demonstrated astounding restraint in response to humiliating North Korean provocations. North Korea has always been given an "out" from their escalating threats and angry provocations in the form of US-SK concessions, apologies, hesitancy, and other responses that can only be seen by North Korea as weakness or lack of resolve from the US and SK. In short, we have always rewarded this kind of behavior, their inane saber rattling, vituperation, and provocations have always gotten them what they wanted.

Now, with tensions as high as ever, North Korea has closed the Kaesong Industrial Complex, this is certainly a sign that we will see some kind of deadly but limited attack soon, it"s always been North Korea"s approach, and it"s always worked for them, if the past is an indication of the future, North Korea has every right to expect restraint and a payoff in the billions.

The cycle needs to stop here, screw restraint, screw a proportional response, if they go forward with some kind of provocation, and I think they will, a disproportional response is in order, we need to show them that this time they have miscalculated, the cycle stops here.
"It is one of the commonest of mistakes to consider that the limit of our power of perception is also the limit of all there is to perceive." " C. W. Leadbeater
lewis20
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4/9/2013 10:36:41 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
I obviously wouldn't say we are responsible but we certainly don't help the situation. We may provoke, encourage etc. but I don't think any of that takes the lions share of responsibly away from North Korea herself.
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suttichart.denpruektham
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4/9/2013 11:49:17 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
The cycle is certainly need to be stopped. Question is how?

Direct attack is certainly not going to work, it will only provoke China involvement in conflict. I think what your government need to do is change the negotiating partner, from N.Korea to China with realistic political situation in mind.

China need N.Korea as its buffer state and proxy against US allied such as S.Korea and Japan. Theoretically, it should be possible to persuade the Chinese government to displace a problematic regime like this current one. Replace it with stronger Chinese control government. US can assist in the replacement if request.

I think it is a fair deal, the US will need to deal with China for N.Korea problem anyway, and China is reasonable the US is it biggest trade partner after all. The Kim dynasty is what caused the current situation and need to be removed, along with any and all of its supporter in the regime. BTW I don't think that boy is the only one who came up with this mess, their must be someone behind so the entire regime need to be removed.
imabench
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4/9/2013 12:06:31 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
US has had a share in causing tension but lets not overlook the obvious fact that North Korea is a psychotic country. They immortalize their rulers as gods and try to make absurd claims about them (Kim Jung Il allegedly never defecated while Kim Jung UN bowled a perfect 300 the first time he tried bowling) and the country is as Orwellian as it gets. Also it wasKim Jung Sun (first ruler of North Korea when they became independent) who advocated complete isolationism from the outside world, which is also a heavy contributor to the mess we find ourselves in with them right now.

There are other reasons why we are in this mess too though

Insane leaders and insane policies towards the outside world = 40%
UN Sanctions every time North Korea does something illegal = 15%
Early policies of propaganda and isolationism = 10%
War rhetoric meant to secure Kim Jung Un's place as leader = 10%
Massive oppression in North Korea keeping its own people from advocating or protesting for peace = 9%
Quick responses from South Korea and the US when North Korea makes a threat = 5%
Reluctance from China to embargo North Korea, which is one of the only reasons North Korea hasnt caved in yet = 4%
Other sh*t = 7%
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Sidewalker
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4/9/2013 5:47:59 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 4/9/2013 12:06:31 PM, imabench wrote:
US has had a share in causing tension but lets not overlook the obvious fact that North Korea is a psychotic country. They immortalize their rulers as gods and try to make absurd claims about them (Kim Jung Il allegedly never defecated while Kim Jung UN bowled a perfect 300 the first time he tried bowling) and the country is as Orwellian as it gets. Also it wasKim Jung Sun (first ruler of North Korea when they became independent) who advocated complete isolationism from the outside world, which is also a heavy contributor to the mess we find ourselves in with them right now.

There are other reasons why we are in this mess too though

Insane leaders and insane policies towards the outside world = 40%
UN Sanctions every time North Korea does something illegal = 15%
Early policies of propaganda and isolationism = 10%
War rhetoric meant to secure Kim Jung Un's place as leader = 10%
Massive oppression in North Korea keeping its own people from advocating or protesting for peace = 9%
Quick responses from South Korea and the US when North Korea makes a threat = 5%
Reluctance from China to embargo North Korea, which is one of the only reasons North Korea hasnt caved in yet = 4%
Other sh*t = 7%

Yeah, but it's the way we have responded to the insanity for sixty years that is the real problem, insanity works for them, it gets the regime money and it gets them prestige with thier people, it always has and they have every reason to think it always will. When somebody messes with the Russioans they roll the tanks and ask questions later, and that's why nobody even thinks about messing with the Russians.

We have rewarded the Kim family for this insane behavior for sixty years, it's like giving a candy bar to a toddler every time they throw a tantrum, if you do that what you'll get is more tantrums and a fat little kid. This fat little despot needs to understand it stops now, you don't poke a grizzley bear with a stick unless you want to die, we need to make an example out of this prick before other insane countries think this is a good approach. I don't know how to get that across to our stout little Kin Jong-un, but it's time he gets the message right between the eyes. When there's nukes involved, even a 1% chance he'll follow through with his bs threats is an unnacceptable risk, we can't keep codling clownboy or this kind of nonsense will spread.

If they fire one these two missles they've warmed up we shouldn't wait to see where they land, we should blast them out of the air as they leave the launch pad, I don't care if it's a test, we need to respond with fury, take out the Yongbyon facility too, and put the stealth bombers over Pyongyang dropping leaflets that say the nuclear warheads are next a$$holes. On the other side it should say if you so much as fire a bottle rocket at Seoul Pyongyang and the entire KPA will become a smoking hole in the ground before it lands.
"It is one of the commonest of mistakes to consider that the limit of our power of perception is also the limit of all there is to perceive." " C. W. Leadbeater
Sidewalker
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4/9/2013 6:10:34 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 4/9/2013 11:49:17 AM, suttichart.denpruektham wrote:
The cycle is certainly need to be stopped. Question is how?

Direct attack is certainly not going to work, it will only provoke China involvement in conflict. I think what your government need to do is change the negotiating partner, from N.Korea to China with realistic political situation in mind.

China need N.Korea as its buffer state and proxy against US allied such as S.Korea and Japan. Theoretically, it should be possible to persuade the Chinese government to displace a problematic regime like this current one. Replace it with stronger Chinese control government. US can assist in the replacement if request.

I think it is a fair deal, the US will need to deal with China for N.Korea problem anyway, and China is reasonable the US is it biggest trade partner after all. The Kim dynasty is what caused the current situation and need to be removed, along with any and all of its supporter in the regime. BTW I don't think that boy is the only one who came up with this mess, their must be someone behind so the entire regime need to be removed.

No doubt China needs to step up, KJU is no real threat to the US, what he is a threat to if this gets out of hand is the global economic stability, and China doesn't want that. I think they are tired of carrying NK anyway, if NK attacks Seoul it will be devastating to China, I think they will take him out themselves if that happens. That's the problem, Seoul is vulnerable, less than a minute by rocket, three minutes by air, if something happens and this thing escalates Seoul is at risk, the second largest municipal area in the world, 25MM people in the capital area, and thousands of missles aimed at them. NK knows attacking Seoul would be suicide, but something stupid happens and it escalates into a rocket attack on Seoul the conservative estimates are over a million people dead. Then we have no choice but to nuke them into the stone age, and I truly believe China will stand down and in the end, probably be relieved that the KPA and Kim dynasty is gone.
"It is one of the commonest of mistakes to consider that the limit of our power of perception is also the limit of all there is to perceive." " C. W. Leadbeater
OberHerr
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4/9/2013 6:13:30 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
I would say that if we get attacked, we should use every little excuse to crush that little prick that rules the country.

This is the 21st century. How can we condemn the Holcaust when NK kills far more than Hitler could have dreamed?

Basically, crush him, unite Korea, blah blah blah blah, rainbows and unicorns.
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Sidewalker
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4/9/2013 7:55:07 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 4/9/2013 6:13:30 PM, OberHerr wrote:
I would say that if we get attacked, we should use every little excuse to crush that little prick that rules the country.

Me too.

This is the 21st century. How can we condemn the Holcaust when NK kills far more than Hitler could have dreamed?

Well, I don't think that is accurate.

Basically, crush him, unite Korea, blah blah blah blah, rainbows and unicorns.

Yeah, now that is accurate.
"It is one of the commonest of mistakes to consider that the limit of our power of perception is also the limit of all there is to perceive." " C. W. Leadbeater
AlbinoBunny
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4/9/2013 8:01:57 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
As soon as North Korea launches an attack on the west, the whole western world should occupy them, and expel their military and leaders and put South Korea in charge.
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slo1
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4/10/2013 8:41:50 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
I agree 100% and support disengaging with NK. We work with China to stop deporting North Koreans who escape the country and get caught in China and instead send them to us and any other country willing to take refugees.

Drain the country from the inside and stop enabling the ridiculousness of NK leaders.
lewis20
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4/10/2013 9:32:35 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 4/9/2013 7:55:07 PM, Sidewalker wrote:
At 4/9/2013 6:13:30 PM, OberHerr wrote:
I would say that if we get attacked, we should use every little excuse to crush that little prick that rules the country.

Me too.

This is the 21st century. How can we condemn the Holcaust when NK kills far more than Hitler could have dreamed?

Well, I don't think that is accurate.

Ya, north Korea has slave labor, executions and a starving populace but they aren't committing genocide on a scale greater than the holocaust.
"If you are a racist I will attack you with the north"- Abraham Lincoln

"Do not wear clothing woven of two kinds of material" - Leviticus 19 19

"War is a racket" - Smedley Butler
lewis20
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4/10/2013 9:35:40 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 4/10/2013 8:41:50 AM, slo1 wrote:
I agree 100% and support disengaging with NK. We work with China to stop deporting North Koreans who escape the country and get caught in China and instead send them to us and any other country willing to take refugees.

That's exactly why every action will be taken to prevent war, no one wants to have to deal with the mass exodus of north Korean refugees.
"If you are a racist I will attack you with the north"- Abraham Lincoln

"Do not wear clothing woven of two kinds of material" - Leviticus 19 19

"War is a racket" - Smedley Butler