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Achieving a Libertarian Society

Wallstreetatheist
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4/9/2013 6:01:34 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
Recently, I asked a few Libertarians, Anarcho-Capitalists, and Voluntaryists a question: What do you think are the three most efficient ways of achieving a free society?

Jeffrey Tucker: 1) Get out of debt, 2) Embrace technology, 3) Work in the commercial world.

Robert Murphy: 1) Writing, 2) Spread the message of liberty within your circle of competence, 3) Change the culture

Daniel D'Amico: 1) Education, 2) Entrepreneurship, 3) Culture, 4) Inevitability

Chase Rachels: 1) Education, 2) Peaceful Parenting, 3) Personal Outreach, 4) Media "ideas have spread much more widely through movies, pop culture, art, literature than political mechanisms."

David McElroy: 1) Influencing culture (through entertainment and other forms of media), 2) Digital Currencies, 3) Living as free as we can in an unfree world

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

What did they have in common? None of them thought that voting was an effective way to decrease the power of the state or to increase human freedom and well-being.
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OberHerr
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4/9/2013 6:05:06 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
If you can change the culture, that in turn changes the voting. So, yeah that's the most important IMO. I think most of them would say that voting is a product of culture change. Unless they want libertarians to take the government by force, I don't see why they didn't all say culture change.
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Skepsikyma
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4/9/2013 6:26:05 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
I don't think that the system can be changed at this time. Its eventual dissolution is the only solution. The first step would be the collapse of US hegemony, and then the birth of liberty-minded societies around the world to which people would migrate. The US at one time fulfilled that role, but it no longer does, and any country which begins to do so is pressured not to. I think that the architects of our current system will be destroyed on the lathe of heaven within my lifetime.
"The Collectivist experiment is thoroughly suited (in appearance at least) to the Capitalist society which it proposes to replace. It works with the existing machinery of Capitalism, talks and thinks in the existing terms of Capitalism, appeals to just those appetites which Capitalism has aroused, and ridicules as fantastic and unheard-of just those things in society the memory of which Capitalism has killed among men wherever the blight of it has spread."
- Hilaire Belloc -
Lordknukle
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4/9/2013 6:43:11 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
The common factor between all revolutions throughout human history is violence.
"Easy is the descent to Avernus, for the door to the Underworld lies upon both day and night. But to retrace your steps and return to the breezes above- that's the task, that's the toil."
GeoLaureate8
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4/9/2013 7:10:15 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
Step 1: Elect Rand Paul

Step 2: Elect Libertarians in Local and State governments

Step Infinity: Spread the message of Liberty and the Constitution, continue and encourage discourse
"We must raise the standard of the Old, free, decentralized, and strictly limited Republic."
-- Murray Rothbard

"The worst thing that can happen to a good cause is, not to be skillfully attacked, but to be ineptly defended."
-- Frederic Bastiat
RyuuKyuzo
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4/9/2013 7:11:11 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 4/9/2013 6:43:11 PM, Lordknukle wrote:
The common factor between all revolutions throughout human history is violence.

And the most common factor between all evolutions throughout human history is peace.
If you're reading this, you're awesome and you should feel awesome.
OberHerr
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4/9/2013 7:19:45 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 4/9/2013 6:43:11 PM, Lordknukle wrote:
The common factor between all revolutions throughout human history is violence.

Industrial Revolution, Green Revolution....don't recall violence used to meet those.

Revolutions don't require violence, they just tend to involve it.
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Lordknukle
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4/9/2013 7:20:54 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 4/9/2013 7:19:45 PM, OberHerr wrote:
At 4/9/2013 6:43:11 PM, Lordknukle wrote:
The common factor between all revolutions throughout human history is violence.

Industrial Revolution, Green Revolution....don't recall violence used to meet those.

Revolutions don't require violence, they just tend to involve it.

Those aren't the revolutions that I was referring to.
"Easy is the descent to Avernus, for the door to the Underworld lies upon both day and night. But to retrace your steps and return to the breezes above- that's the task, that's the toil."
Lordknukle
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4/9/2013 7:24:00 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 4/9/2013 7:11:11 PM, RyuuKyuzo wrote:
At 4/9/2013 6:43:11 PM, Lordknukle wrote:
The common factor between all revolutions throughout human history is violence.

And the most common factor between all evolutions throughout human history is peace.

Natural selection vehemently disagrees with you.
"Easy is the descent to Avernus, for the door to the Underworld lies upon both day and night. But to retrace your steps and return to the breezes above- that's the task, that's the toil."
OberHerr
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4/9/2013 7:24:03 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 4/9/2013 7:20:54 PM, Lordknukle wrote:
At 4/9/2013 7:19:45 PM, OberHerr wrote:
At 4/9/2013 6:43:11 PM, Lordknukle wrote:
The common factor between all revolutions throughout human history is violence.

Industrial Revolution, Green Revolution....don't recall violence used to meet those.

Revolutions don't require violence, they just tend to involve it.

Those aren't the revolutions that I was referring to.

Sorry if history doesn't agreed with you. Libertarianism wouldn't be a revolution in the sense your thinking.
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AlbinoBunny
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4/9/2013 7:44:54 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
1. Transparency.
2. Equality.
3. Democracy.

Maybe...
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Lordknukle
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4/9/2013 9:16:30 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 4/9/2013 7:24:03 PM, OberHerr wrote:
At 4/9/2013 7:20:54 PM, Lordknukle wrote:
At 4/9/2013 7:19:45 PM, OberHerr wrote:
At 4/9/2013 6:43:11 PM, Lordknukle wrote:
The common factor between all revolutions throughout human history is violence.

Industrial Revolution, Green Revolution....don't recall violence used to meet those.

Revolutions don't require violence, they just tend to involve it.

Those aren't the revolutions that I was referring to.

Sorry if history doesn't agreed with you. Libertarianism wouldn't be a revolution in the sense your thinking.

I'm not sure that I detect an argument in that.
"Easy is the descent to Avernus, for the door to the Underworld lies upon both day and night. But to retrace your steps and return to the breezes above- that's the task, that's the toil."
OberHerr
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4/9/2013 9:21:02 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 4/9/2013 9:16:30 PM, Lordknukle wrote:
At 4/9/2013 7:24:03 PM, OberHerr wrote:
At 4/9/2013 7:20:54 PM, Lordknukle wrote:
At 4/9/2013 7:19:45 PM, OberHerr wrote:
At 4/9/2013 6:43:11 PM, Lordknukle wrote:
The common factor between all revolutions throughout human history is violence.

Industrial Revolution, Green Revolution....don't recall violence used to meet those.

Revolutions don't require violence, they just tend to involve it.

Those aren't the revolutions that I was referring to.

Sorry if history doesn't agreed with you. Libertarianism wouldn't be a revolution in the sense your thinking.

I'm not sure that I detect an argument in that.

Sorry if you can't detect an argument as well, but believe it or not, people and nations can change with time.
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Wallstreetatheist
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4/9/2013 9:23:39 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
REASONS NOT TO VOTE

Morality
1. Non-Aggression - It's not good to have some people ruling others. Free choice beats winner-take-all politics. Individual rights trump "public good."

2. Non-Violence - Political government is collectivized violence. Don't rob your neighbor by proxy. Use peaceful means for all your endeavors.

Individual Rationality
3. Statistical - The probability of casting a deciding vote is miniscule.

4. Rational Ignorance - The cost of information is greater than the expected benefit.

Institutional Analysis
5. Public Choice - Rulers go by what gains them power and pelf, not the 'public good.' They are rent seekers, selling power to cronies.

6. The Public Goods Problem - In a political system, the few big beneficiaries win out over the many marginal losers virtually every time. Good law is a public good so is undersupplied; bad law is a private good so is oversupplied.

7. Bribery/media underdog - The little guy voter can't outbid the munitions and oil industries for political favors or mass media propaganda. We get a dog and pony show with "choice" of statist A or statist B.
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OberHerr
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4/9/2013 9:26:26 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 4/9/2013 9:23:39 PM, Wallstreetatheist wrote:
REASONS NOT TO VOTE

Morality
1. Non-Aggression - It's not good to have some people ruling others. Free choice beats winner-take-all politics. Individual rights trump "public good."

2. Non-Violence - Political government is collectivized violence. Don't rob your neighbor by proxy. Use peaceful means for all your endeavors.

Individual Rationality
3. Statistical - The probability of casting a deciding vote is miniscule.

4. Rational Ignorance - The cost of information is greater than the expected benefit.

Institutional Analysis
5. Public Choice - Rulers go by what gains them power and pelf, not the 'public good.' They are rent seekers, selling power to cronies.

6. The Public Goods Problem - In a political system, the few big beneficiaries win out over the many marginal losers virtually every time. Good law is a public good so is undersupplied; bad law is a private good so is oversupplied.

7. Bribery/media underdog - The little guy voter can't outbid the munitions and oil industries for political favors or mass media propaganda. We get a dog and pony show with "choice" of statist A or statist B.

Which is why trying to change the culture one generation at a time is the only thing that works.
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Wallstreetatheist
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4/9/2013 9:38:19 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 4/9/2013 9:26:26 PM, OberHerr wrote:
Which is why trying to change the culture one generation at a time is the only thing that works.

Yep. That's what the most brilliant minds in Libertarianism are converging on.
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AlbinoBunny
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4/9/2013 9:53:51 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 4/9/2013 9:23:39 PM, Wallstreetatheist wrote:
REASONS NOT TO VOTE

Morality
1. Non-Aggression - It's not good to have some people ruling others. Free choice beats winner-take-all politics. Individual rights trump "public good."

"individual rights" will probably infringe on "individual rights" greater than the "public good" does, which is why it's there.


2. Non-Violence - Political government is collectivized violence. Don't rob your neighbor by proxy. Use peaceful means for all your endeavors.

You wish. The government helps reduce the violence via authority.


Individual Rationality
3. Statistical - The probability of casting a deciding vote is miniscule.

Not if you're the only one to vote because everyone else abstained for this exact reason. Is that irony, or am I yet another person to misuse the word irony?


4. Rational Ignorance - The cost of information is greater than the expected benefit.

And you're saying we should? ...


Institutional Analysis
5. Public Choice - Rulers go by what gains them power and pelf, not the 'public good.' They are rent seekers, selling power to cronies.

We should help to make it so that the more public good they'll do, the more likely they'll get into office, then.


6. The Public Goods Problem - In a political system, the few big beneficiaries win out over the many marginal losers virtually every time. Good law is a public good so is undersupplied; bad law is a private good so is oversupplied.

?


7. Bribery/media underdog - The little guy voter can't outbid the munitions and oil industries for political favors or mass media propaganda. We get a dog and pony show with "choice" of statist A or statist B.

Well your politicians shouldn't be getting back rubs from them then. We can put measures into place to make this hard, or even stop this. In the past we thought that kings and barons would always rule over us, but that wasn't the case.
bladerunner060 | bsh1 , 2014! Presidency campaign!

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http://www.debate.org... - Running for president.
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May the best man win!
Wallstreetatheist
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4/9/2013 10:15:22 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 4/9/2013 9:53:51 PM, AlbinoBunny wrote:
"individual rights" will probably infringe on "individual rights" greater than the "public good" does, which is why it's there.

Please explain.

You wish. The government helps reduce the violence via authority.

Define government.

Not if you're the only one to vote because everyone else abstained for this exact reason. Is that irony, or am I yet another person to misuse the word irony?

I'd advise reading "The Myth of the Rational Voter" by Bryan Caplan.

We should help to make it so that the more public good they'll do, the more likely they'll get into office, then.

Define the "public good."

Well your politicians shouldn't be getting back rubs from them then. We can put measures into place to make this hard, or even stop this. In the past we thought that kings and barons would always rule over us, but that wasn't the case.

http://i.imgur.com...
Kings and Barons used the reasoning that they had the divine right to rule. GOd chose them to rule, which gives them the right. If you posit that God exists, this might be a plausible reason to permit someone to rule.
The reasoning for government today is worse. They invent something called the "social contract," which no one signed, is not a real contract, and people who do not have contractual capacity (e.g. minors and severely mentally disabled) are somehow bound to it.

Since the cause of corporations getting in bed with government is that government is large enough to dole out special favors to corporations that give it kickbacks, it doesn't make sense to have government on top of government somehow solving the problem. Regulatory agencies are notorious for failing to property regulate the industry they are tasked with. Maybe this will give you some insight: http://redgreenandblue.org...
And this is for sh!ts and giggles. Don't click if you're super sensitive: https://sphotos-a.xx.fbcdn.net...
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darkkermit
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4/9/2013 10:19:03 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
Remove some democratic power, especially to groups of people who don't tend to vote libertarian, for example women and minorities. The closest libertarian societies were the ones that were undemocratic. Example, Chile, Signapore, and Hong Kong. Even in America during its libertarian phase didn't give the rights of everyone to vote.
Open borders debate:
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Wallstreetatheist
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4/9/2013 10:22:51 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 4/9/2013 10:19:03 PM, darkkermit wrote:
Remove some democratic power, especially to groups of people who don't tend to vote libertarian, for example women and minorities. The closest libertarian societies were the ones that were undemocratic. Example, Chile, Signapore, and Hong Kong. Even in America during its libertarian phase didn't give the rights of everyone to vote.

I think you're equating "libertarian" with "free market." I wouldn't consider Hong Kong or Singapore libertarian. They are free market, but they got that way through a dictatorship. Yes, the outcome was absolutely fantastic for human well-being and flourishing, but I don't consider them libertarian. Singapore holds the death penalty for importing drugs.
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AlbinoBunny
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4/9/2013 10:34:24 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 4/9/2013 10:15:22 PM, Wallstreetatheist wrote:
At 4/9/2013 9:53:51 PM, AlbinoBunny wrote:
"individual rights" will probably infringe on "individual rights" greater than the "public good" does, which is why it's there.

Please explain.

I want that food, so do you. I take it, you lose out.


You wish. The government helps reduce the violence via authority.

Define government.

"the political direction and control exercised over the actions of the members, citizens, or inhabitants of communities, societies, and states; direction of the affairs of a state, community, etc.; political administration: Government is necessary to the existence of civilized society."


Not if you're the only one to vote because everyone else abstained for this exact reason. Is that irony, or am I yet another person to misuse the word irony?

I'd advise reading "The Myth of the Rational Voter" by Bryan Caplan.

Buy it for me.



We should help to make it so that the more public good they'll do, the more likely they'll get into office, then.

Define the "public good."

How much individual rights each individual has on average in the state? The freedom to do as they will, but not infringe on others freedoms? To have freedom of opportunity? To be supported when you need support? Among many other things.



Well your politicians shouldn't be getting back rubs from them then. We can put measures into place to make this hard, or even stop this. In the past we thought that kings and barons would always rule over us, but that wasn't the case.

http://i.imgur.com...
Kings and Barons used the reasoning that they had the divine right to rule. GOd chose them to rule, which gives them the right. If you posit that God exists, this might be a plausible reason to permit someone to rule.
The reasoning for government today is worse. They invent something called the "social contract," which no one signed, is not a real contract, and people who do not have contractual capacity (e.g. minors and severely mentally disabled) are somehow bound to it.

I want a government to serve me and everyone in my society.


Since the cause of corporations getting in bed with government is that government is large enough to dole out special favors to corporations that give it kickbacks, it doesn't make sense to have government on top of government somehow solving the problem. Regulatory agencies are notorious for failing to property regulate the industry they are tasked with. Maybe this will give you some insight: http://redgreenandblue.org...
And this is for sh!ts and giggles. Don't click if you're super sensitive: https://sphotos-a.xx.fbcdn.net...

Not government on top of government. Separate and transparent organisations watching over them. Transparency is key here. The government isn't some evil thing which wants to steal your babies and sell them for crack, you know?

I see this is all very U.S-centric. There are ways to stop governments and corporations and governments getting into bed together, especially in this day and age.

Don't give up.
bladerunner060 | bsh1 , 2014! Presidency campaign!

http://www.debate.org...
http://www.debate.org... - Running for president.
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May the best man win!
AlbinoBunny
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4/9/2013 10:35:41 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 4/9/2013 10:19:03 PM, darkkermit wrote:
Remove some democratic power, especially to groups of people who don't tend to vote libertarian, for example women and minorities. The closest libertarian societies were the ones that were undemocratic. Example, Chile, Signapore, and Hong Kong. Even in America during its libertarian phase didn't give the rights of everyone to vote.

Not everyone's given the right to vote.
bladerunner060 | bsh1 , 2014! Presidency campaign!

http://www.debate.org...
http://www.debate.org... - Running for president.
http://www.debate.org... - Running as his vice president.

May the best man win!
darkkermit
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4/9/2013 10:35:44 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 4/9/2013 10:22:51 PM, Wallstreetatheist wrote:
At 4/9/2013 10:19:03 PM, darkkermit wrote:
Remove some democratic power, especially to groups of people who don't tend to vote libertarian, for example women and minorities. The closest libertarian societies were the ones that were undemocratic. Example, Chile, Signapore, and Hong Kong. Even in America during its libertarian phase didn't give the rights of everyone to vote.

I think you're equating "libertarian" with "free market." I wouldn't consider Hong Kong or Singapore libertarian. They are free market, but they got that way through a dictatorship.

Hence why I said closest and not absolute. What would u consider the most libertarian nation to be then?

Yes, the outcome was absolutely fantastic for human well-being and flourishing, but I don't consider them libertarian. Singapore holds the death penalty for importing drugs.
Open borders debate:
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darkkermit
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4/9/2013 10:51:44 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
I think include a combination of social factors and economic factors, then the US is probably the most libertarian state in the world.
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Wallstreetatheist
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4/9/2013 11:08:06 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 4/9/2013 10:35:44 PM, darkkermit wrote:
Hence why I said closest and not absolute. What would u consider the most libertarian nation to be then?

Yeah, didn't mean to be a dick about it. Sorry, kermy. I would consider New Zealand, Switzerland, or Lichtenstein, when analyzing economic freedom and personal freedom. What about yourself?
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Wallstreetatheist
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4/9/2013 11:11:43 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 4/9/2013 10:51:44 PM, darkkermit wrote:
I think include a combination of social factors and economic factors, then the US is probably the most libertarian state in the world.

Personal/Social Freedom:
Highest imprisoned population (percentage and absolute), war on drugs, militarized and abusive police forces, bill of rights doesn't really apply anymore, indefinite detention, domestic drones, CIA, FBI, etc.

Economic Freedom:
The United States is currently ranked 19th in the world for economic freedom [http://www.freetheworld.com...].
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AlbinoBunny
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4/9/2013 11:16:11 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 4/9/2013 11:11:43 PM, Wallstreetatheist wrote:
At 4/9/2013 10:51:44 PM, darkkermit wrote:
I think include a combination of social factors and economic factors, then the US is probably the most libertarian state in the world.

Personal/Social Freedom:
Highest imprisoned population (percentage and absolute), war on drugs, militarized and abusive police forces, bill of rights doesn't really apply anymore, indefinite detention, domestic drones, CIA, FBI, etc.

You guys do have it pretty rough ATM.
bladerunner060 | bsh1 , 2014! Presidency campaign!

http://www.debate.org...
http://www.debate.org... - Running for president.
http://www.debate.org... - Running as his vice president.

May the best man win!
GeoLaureate8
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4/10/2013 12:15:56 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 4/9/2013 7:44:54 PM, AlbinoBunny wrote:
1. Transparency.
2. Equality.
3. Democracy.

Maybe...

Equality and Democracy are antithetical to Libertarianism.
"We must raise the standard of the Old, free, decentralized, and strictly limited Republic."
-- Murray Rothbard

"The worst thing that can happen to a good cause is, not to be skillfully attacked, but to be ineptly defended."
-- Frederic Bastiat
RoyLatham
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4/10/2013 8:38:14 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
The OP suggestions are pretty much the same methods that would come from asking communists how to achieve a communist society.

My suggestion is that libertarians should propose libertarian alternatives to government control and show that they work. For example, propose a free-enterprise alternative to government food inspection. Currently, Underwriters Laboratories used to provide inspections of appliance safety, and manufacturers sought UL approval so they could display the UL seal. UL still exists, but government has taken over many of their functions. With all of the e coli outbreaks, many people distrust government inspections, so a better private system has a good chance for public acceptance.

Government doesn't like private competition, so there will have to be laws to allow competition. Public support behind individual efforts have a chance at approval. Waiting for libertarianism to be adopted all at once is futile. Government can be torn down a brick at a time. Get behind school vouchers, privatizing the Post Office, privatizing air traffic control and airline security ... all the alternatives to government.