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Political ideology of your friends

thett3
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4/14/2013 8:59:28 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
This could go in personal but whatever. As most of you know I'm a right-libertarian, however my friends are not so and I'm wondering if its the same for anyone else here. My friends are almost without exception unapologetically liberal, there are still a few old friends who are conservatives but most of the conservatives I interact with now I dont really like, and I detest most libertarians and ron-paul bots in real life (not on DDO) even though we agree on most everything, so I'd rather hang out woith liberals who I generally view as good intentioned but misguided.

Is anyone else the same in having friends the opposite political ideologies as them?
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: At 11/12/2016 11:49:40 PM, Raisor wrote:
: thett was right
YYW
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4/14/2013 9:01:18 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 4/14/2013 8:59:28 PM, thett3 wrote:
This could go in personal but whatever. As most of you know I'm a right-libertarian, however my friends are not so and I'm wondering if its the same for anyone else here. My friends are almost without exception unapologetically liberal, there are still a few old friends who are conservatives but most of the conservatives I interact with now I dont really like, and I detest most libertarians and ron-paul bots in real life (not on DDO) even though we agree on most everything, so I'd rather hang out woith liberals who I generally view as good intentioned but misguided.

Is anyone else the same in having friends the opposite political ideologies as them?

What can I say? Liberals have more fun.
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Noumena
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4/14/2013 9:07:47 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
Most of my friends aren't political but the ones who are are mostly left libertarian/anarchist. But that's because those beliefs acted as a catalyst for our interactions to develop in the first place.
: At 5/13/2014 7:05:20 PM, Crescendo wrote:
: The difference is that the gay movement is currently pushing their will on Churches, as shown in the link to gay marriage in Denmark. Meanwhile, the Inquisition ended several centuries ago.
Contra
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4/14/2013 9:09:30 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 4/14/2013 8:59:28 PM, thett3 wrote:
This could go in personal but whatever. As most of you know I'm a right-libertarian, however my friends are not so and I'm wondering if its the same for anyone else here. My friends are almost without exception unapologetically liberal, there are still a few old friends who are conservatives but most of the conservatives I interact with now I dont really like, and I detest most libertarians and ron-paul bots in real life (not on DDO) even though we agree on most everything, so I'd rather hang out woith liberals who I generally view as good intentioned but misguided.

Are the Paulbots/ libertarians arrogant? Out of curiosity?


Is anyone else the same in having friends the opposite political ideologies as them?

Most of my friends don't care about politics, and whenever I bring it up, they are clueless.

I have a couple conservative friends who I see rarely, because they are from opposite corners in my state. But yeah, most of my friends are probably liberals. I haven't asked them all though, because I want to keep the peace.
"The solution [for Republicans] is to admit that Bush was a bad president, stop this racist homophobic stuff, stop trying to give most of the tax cuts to the rich, propose a real alternative to Obamacare that actually works, and propose smart free market solutions to our economic problems." - Distraff

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imabench
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4/14/2013 9:09:51 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
Im in College, its swarming with liberals and I love it <333
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lewis20
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4/14/2013 9:10:20 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
Most of mine are apathetic, but the ones who are political lean libertarian. Low taxes and high freedom isn't too hard a sell.
The whole anti-bloated military budget, foreign adventurism and cronyism thing is a strong selling point as well.
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Noumena
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4/14/2013 9:12:29 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 4/14/2013 9:09:51 PM, imabench wrote:
Im in College, its swarming with liberals and I love it <333

That's weird. My college is swarming with left libertarian types. I.e., people with liberal sentiments but who are distrustful of da gubment.
: At 5/13/2014 7:05:20 PM, Crescendo wrote:
: The difference is that the gay movement is currently pushing their will on Churches, as shown in the link to gay marriage in Denmark. Meanwhile, the Inquisition ended several centuries ago.
thett3
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4/14/2013 9:13:27 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 4/14/2013 9:09:30 PM, Contra wrote:
At 4/14/2013 8:59:28 PM, thett3 wrote:
This could go in personal but whatever. As most of you know I'm a right-libertarian, however my friends are not so and I'm wondering if its the same for anyone else here. My friends are almost without exception unapologetically liberal, there are still a few old friends who are conservatives but most of the conservatives I interact with now I dont really like, and I detest most libertarians and ron-paul bots in real life (not on DDO) even though we agree on most everything, so I'd rather hang out woith liberals who I generally view as good intentioned but misguided.

Are the Paulbots/ libertarians arrogant? Out of curiosity?

Hell the f*ck yes they are, a bunch of smug cockksure psuedo intellectuals for the most part. This is only speaking for the ones I know personally however, which is not even slightly a large or accurate sample for most libertarians..just look at the ones on DDO



Is anyone else the same in having friends the opposite political ideologies as them?

Most of my friends don't care about politics, and whenever I bring it up, they are clueless.

I have a couple conservative friends who I see rarely, because they are from opposite corners in my state. But yeah, most of my friends are probably liberals. I haven't asked them all though, because I want to keep the peace.
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"Don't quote me, ever." -Max

"My name is max. I'm not a big fan of slacks"- Max rapping

"Walmart should have the opportunity to bribe a politician to it's agenda" -Max

"Thett, you're really good at convincing people you're a decent person"-tulle

"You fit the character of Regina George quite nicely"- Sam

: At 11/12/2016 11:49:40 PM, Raisor wrote:
: thett was right
lewis20
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4/14/2013 9:16:12 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 4/14/2013 9:12:29 PM, Noumena wrote:
At 4/14/2013 9:09:51 PM, imabench wrote:
Im in College, its swarming with liberals and I love it <333

That's weird. My college is swarming with left libertarian types. I.e., people with liberal sentiments but who are distrustful of da gubment.

I think that's the most common theme on college campus', the right libertarians in the Republican party really shoot themselves in the foot when they demonize and reject college students. In reality they could probably find enough common ground to pull a lot of that vote away from the democrats.
For example the new brand of Constitutional conservatism that wants to avoid foreign adventurism could really appeal to a lot of the college campus 'liberals'
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lannan13
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4/14/2013 9:19:33 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
Interresting: I'm far right wing and most of my friends are liberals.
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lewis20
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4/14/2013 9:20:07 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 4/14/2013 9:13:27 PM, thett3 wrote:
At 4/14/2013 9:09:30 PM, Contra wrote:
At 4/14/2013 8:59:28 PM, thett3 wrote:
This could go in personal but whatever. As most of you know I'm a right-libertarian, however my friends are not so and I'm wondering if its the same for anyone else here. My friends are almost without exception unapologetically liberal, there are still a few old friends who are conservatives but most of the conservatives I interact with now I dont really like, and I detest most libertarians and ron-paul bots in real life (not on DDO) even though we agree on most everything, so I'd rather hang out woith liberals who I generally view as good intentioned but misguided.

Are the Paulbots/ libertarians arrogant? Out of curiosity?

Hell the f*ck yes they are, a bunch of smug cockksure psuedo intellectuals for the most part. This is only speaking for the ones I know personally however, which is not even slightly a large or accurate sample for most libertarians..just look at the ones on DDO

Don't pull any punches there, is the libertarian platform not the best of the major parties? Aren't they usually more educated than in both history and politics than the (common man) members of the two main political parties?
You could hurl any of those insults at any of the pundits on fox or msnbc and they'd be more true.
"If you are a racist I will attack you with the north"- Abraham Lincoln

"Do not wear clothing woven of two kinds of material" - Leviticus 19 19

"War is a racket" - Smedley Butler
Noumena
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4/14/2013 9:20:35 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 4/14/2013 9:19:33 PM, lannan13 wrote:
Interresting: I'm far right wing and most of my friends are liberals.

That doesn't tell us anything. Far right as in Reagan or Pol Pot?
: At 5/13/2014 7:05:20 PM, Crescendo wrote:
: The difference is that the gay movement is currently pushing their will on Churches, as shown in the link to gay marriage in Denmark. Meanwhile, the Inquisition ended several centuries ago.
000ike
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4/14/2013 9:26:02 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 4/14/2013 8:59:28 PM, thett3 wrote:
This could go in personal but whatever. As most of you know I'm a right-libertarian, however my friends are not so and I'm wondering if its the same for anyone else here. My friends are almost without exception unapologetically liberal, there are still a few old friends who are conservatives but most of the conservatives I interact with now I dont really like, and I detest most libertarians and ron-paul bots in real life (not on DDO) even though we agree on most everything, so I'd rather hang out woith liberals who I generally view as good intentioned but misguided.

Is anyone else the same in having friends the opposite political ideologies as them?

Liberals?....in Texas?
"A stupid despot may constrain his slaves with iron chains; but a true politician binds them even more strongly with the chain of their own ideas" - Michel Foucault
thett3
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4/14/2013 9:26:13 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 4/14/2013 9:20:07 PM, lewis20 wrote:
At 4/14/2013 9:13:27 PM, thett3 wrote:
At 4/14/2013 9:09:30 PM, Contra wrote:
At 4/14/2013 8:59:28 PM, thett3 wrote:
This could go in personal but whatever. As most of you know I'm a right-libertarian, however my friends are not so and I'm wondering if its the same for anyone else here. My friends are almost without exception unapologetically liberal, there are still a few old friends who are conservatives but most of the conservatives I interact with now I dont really like, and I detest most libertarians and ron-paul bots in real life (not on DDO) even though we agree on most everything, so I'd rather hang out woith liberals who I generally view as good intentioned but misguided.

Are the Paulbots/ libertarians arrogant? Out of curiosity?

Hell the f*ck yes they are, a bunch of smug cockksure psuedo intellectuals for the most part. This is only speaking for the ones I know personally however, which is not even slightly a large or accurate sample for most libertarians..just look at the ones on DDO

Don't pull any punches there, is the libertarian platform not the best of the major parties?

Oh yeah.

Aren't they usually more educated than in both history and politics than the (common man) members of the two main political parties?

Definitely, I dont deny that. The problem is, these people know it and will not shut up about it. Its probably just the ones I know though, I'm not arguing all libertarians are like this

You could hurl any of those insults at any of the pundits on fox or msnbc and they'd be more true.

Fosho agree 100%
DDO Vice President

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"Don't quote me, ever." -Max

"My name is max. I'm not a big fan of slacks"- Max rapping

"Walmart should have the opportunity to bribe a politician to it's agenda" -Max

"Thett, you're really good at convincing people you're a decent person"-tulle

"You fit the character of Regina George quite nicely"- Sam

: At 11/12/2016 11:49:40 PM, Raisor wrote:
: thett was right
thett3
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4/14/2013 9:27:49 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 4/14/2013 9:26:02 PM, 000ike wrote:
At 4/14/2013 8:59:28 PM, thett3 wrote:
This could go in personal but whatever. As most of you know I'm a right-libertarian, however my friends are not so and I'm wondering if its the same for anyone else here. My friends are almost without exception unapologetically liberal, there are still a few old friends who are conservatives but most of the conservatives I interact with now I dont really like, and I detest most libertarians and ron-paul bots in real life (not on DDO) even though we agree on most everything, so I'd rather hang out woith liberals who I generally view as good intentioned but misguided.

Is anyone else the same in having friends the opposite political ideologies as them?

Liberals?....in Texas?

Haha I live in the city bro...well suburbs, but in the DFW metroplex
DDO Vice President

#StandwithBossy

#UnbanTheMadman

#BetOnThett

"Don't quote me, ever." -Max

"My name is max. I'm not a big fan of slacks"- Max rapping

"Walmart should have the opportunity to bribe a politician to it's agenda" -Max

"Thett, you're really good at convincing people you're a decent person"-tulle

"You fit the character of Regina George quite nicely"- Sam

: At 11/12/2016 11:49:40 PM, Raisor wrote:
: thett was right
16kadams
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4/14/2013 9:27:51 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
My friends are mixed
1 conservative
1 moderate
2 liberals
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16kadams
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4/14/2013 9:28:57 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 4/14/2013 9:19:33 PM, lannan13 wrote:
Interresting: I'm far right wing and most of my friends are liberals.

You're not that right wing.
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Noumena
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4/14/2013 9:29:03 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 4/14/2013 9:27:51 PM, 16kadams wrote:
My friends are mixed
1 conservative
1 moderate
2 liberals

So no interesting friends, got it.
: At 5/13/2014 7:05:20 PM, Crescendo wrote:
: The difference is that the gay movement is currently pushing their will on Churches, as shown in the link to gay marriage in Denmark. Meanwhile, the Inquisition ended several centuries ago.
000ike
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4/14/2013 9:31:18 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
I feel like Liberalism is the default for people who haven't put much thought into politics/philosophy. Not that that is reflective on the quality of the ideology
"A stupid despot may constrain his slaves with iron chains; but a true politician binds them even more strongly with the chain of their own ideas" - Michel Foucault
Contra
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4/14/2013 9:32:59 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 4/14/2013 9:13:27 PM, thett3 wrote:
At 4/14/2013 9:09:30 PM, Contra wrote:
At 4/14/2013 8:59:28 PM, thett3 wrote:
This could go in personal but whatever. As most of you know I'm a right-libertarian, however my friends are not so and I'm wondering if its the same for anyone else here. My friends are almost without exception unapologetically liberal, there are still a few old friends who are conservatives but most of the conservatives I interact with now I dont really like, and I detest most libertarians and ron-paul bots in real life (not on DDO) even though we agree on most everything, so I'd rather hang out woith liberals who I generally view as good intentioned but misguided.

Are the Paulbots/ libertarians arrogant? Out of curiosity?

Hell the f*ck yes they are, a bunch of smug cockksure psuedo intellectuals for the most part.

From who I have talked to, most libertarians appear to be this way in person.

This is only speaking for the ones I know personally however, which is not even slightly a large or accurate sample for most libertarians..just look at the ones on DDO

Oh you're awesome :D

I try not to appear that way, I hate how people think "libertarians hate poor people." It's offensive, I try to debate in a way that frames my arguments so they are appealing to liberals.



Is anyone else the same in having friends the opposite political ideologies as them?

Most of my friends don't care about politics, and whenever I bring it up, they are clueless.

I have a couple conservative friends who I see rarely, because they are from opposite corners in my state. But yeah, most of my friends are probably liberals. I haven't asked them all though, because I want to keep the peace.
"The solution [for Republicans] is to admit that Bush was a bad president, stop this racist homophobic stuff, stop trying to give most of the tax cuts to the rich, propose a real alternative to Obamacare that actually works, and propose smart free market solutions to our economic problems." - Distraff

"Americans are better off in a dynamic, free-enterprise-based economy that fosters economic growth, opportunity and upward mobility." - Paul Ryan
Noumena
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4/14/2013 9:35:12 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 4/14/2013 9:31:18 PM, 000ike wrote:
I feel like Liberalism is the default for people who haven't put much thought into politics/philosophy. Not that that is reflective on the quality of the ideology

I was a liberal when I hadn't thought about politics yet. I think it was because I believed in things like equality and tolerance and just assumed liberalism lent itself to those things. Unfortunately most people are jus content to rely only on those presuppositions, rather than seeking out what those principles consistently applied were.
: At 5/13/2014 7:05:20 PM, Crescendo wrote:
: The difference is that the gay movement is currently pushing their will on Churches, as shown in the link to gay marriage in Denmark. Meanwhile, the Inquisition ended several centuries ago.
thett3
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4/14/2013 9:37:14 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 4/14/2013 9:32:59 PM, Contra wrote:
At 4/14/2013 9:13:27 PM, thett3 wrote:
At 4/14/2013 9:09:30 PM, Contra wrote:
At 4/14/2013 8:59:28 PM, thett3 wrote:
This could go in personal but whatever. As most of you know I'm a right-libertarian, however my friends are not so and I'm wondering if its the same for anyone else here. My friends are almost without exception unapologetically liberal, there are still a few old friends who are conservatives but most of the conservatives I interact with now I dont really like, and I detest most libertarians and ron-paul bots in real life (not on DDO) even though we agree on most everything, so I'd rather hang out woith liberals who I generally view as good intentioned but misguided.

Are the Paulbots/ libertarians arrogant? Out of curiosity?

Hell the f*ck yes they are, a bunch of smug cockksure psuedo intellectuals for the most part.

From who I have talked to, most libertarians appear to be this way in person.

I wanted to punch this kid in the face who started criticizing "keensian economics" without knowing who Keynes was. Ugh.


This is only speaking for the ones I know personally however, which is not even slightly a large or accurate sample for most libertarians..just look at the ones on DDO

Oh you're awesome :D

I try not to appear that way, I hate how people think "libertarians hate poor people." It's offensive, I try to debate in a way that frames my arguments so they are appealing to liberals.

You arent like that, no one on DDO is. I try to do so as well but its sometimes a tough sell. People are very used to thinking utilitarianistically



Is anyone else the same in having friends the opposite political ideologies as them?

Most of my friends don't care about politics, and whenever I bring it up, they are clueless.

I have a couple conservative friends who I see rarely, because they are from opposite corners in my state. But yeah, most of my friends are probably liberals. I haven't asked them all though, because I want to keep the peace.
DDO Vice President

#StandwithBossy

#UnbanTheMadman

#BetOnThett

"Don't quote me, ever." -Max

"My name is max. I'm not a big fan of slacks"- Max rapping

"Walmart should have the opportunity to bribe a politician to it's agenda" -Max

"Thett, you're really good at convincing people you're a decent person"-tulle

"You fit the character of Regina George quite nicely"- Sam

: At 11/12/2016 11:49:40 PM, Raisor wrote:
: thett was right
thett3
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4/14/2013 9:40:58 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 4/14/2013 9:37:14 PM, thett3 wrote:
At 4/14/2013 9:32:59 PM, Contra wrote:
At 4/14/2013 9:13:27 PM, thett3 wrote:
At 4/14/2013 9:09:30 PM, Contra wrote:
At 4/14/2013 8:59:28 PM, thett3 wrote:
This could go in personal but whatever. As most of you know I'm a right-libertarian, however my friends are not so and I'm wondering if its the same for anyone else here. My friends are almost without exception unapologetically liberal, there are still a few old friends who are conservatives but most of the conservatives I interact with now I dont really like, and I detest most libertarians and ron-paul bots in real life (not on DDO) even though we agree on most everything, so I'd rather hang out woith liberals who I generally view as good intentioned but misguided.

Are the Paulbots/ libertarians arrogant? Out of curiosity?

Hell the f*ck yes they are, a bunch of smug cockksure psuedo intellectuals for the most part.

From who I have talked to, most libertarians appear to be this way in person.

I wanted to punch this kid in the face who started criticizing "keensian economics" without knowing who Keynes was. Ugh.


This is only speaking for the ones I know personally however, which is not even slightly a large or accurate sample for most libertarians..just look at the ones on DDO

Oh you're awesome :D

I try not to appear that way, I hate how people think "libertarians hate poor people." It's offensive, I try to debate in a way that frames my arguments so they are appealing to liberals.

You arent like that, no one on DDO is. I try to do so as well but its sometimes a tough sell. People are very used to thinking utilitarianistically

Which is why in real life I'm almost always silent on political things unless I'm absolutely certain I'll win the argument and its important to me. Sometimes I'll play devils advocate too just because the conservatives annoy me



Is anyone else the same in having friends the opposite political ideologies as them?

Most of my friends don't care about politics, and whenever I bring it up, they are clueless.

I have a couple conservative friends who I see rarely, because they are from opposite corners in my state. But yeah, most of my friends are probably liberals. I haven't asked them all though, because I want to keep the peace.
DDO Vice President

#StandwithBossy

#UnbanTheMadman

#BetOnThett

"Don't quote me, ever." -Max

"My name is max. I'm not a big fan of slacks"- Max rapping

"Walmart should have the opportunity to bribe a politician to it's agenda" -Max

"Thett, you're really good at convincing people you're a decent person"-tulle

"You fit the character of Regina George quite nicely"- Sam

: At 11/12/2016 11:49:40 PM, Raisor wrote:
: thett was right
YYW
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4/14/2013 9:42:40 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 4/14/2013 9:02:20 PM, dylancatlow wrote:
Same. I'm libertarian, my friends are liberals, and the few conservative friends I have I don't like.

Interesting. Most of my friends are either liberal or moderately conservative. There are a few odd balls in the mix (an anarchist, a self-sedcribed communist, and a few who are bitterly apathetic), but very few libertarians. Most of the libertarians I know -in real life- don't especially care for me, though that's not surprising.
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Skepsikyma
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4/14/2013 9:47:47 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
To be honest, I don't know a lot of my friends political inclinations. Few of them are overtly political or very well informed when it comes to politics, so any discussion of politics usually either ends up with bad blood or them aligning themselves more closely with my views. I mostly share other interests with my friends (bouldering, hiking, gardening, drinking, history, art etc.) If I had to hazard a guess I'd say maybe 40% liberal, 20% conservative, 20% libertarian, and 20% other. I do have one anarchist homesteader friend. She's a little crazy at times, but that's part of what makes hanging out with her fun.
"The Collectivist experiment is thoroughly suited (in appearance at least) to the Capitalist society which it proposes to replace. It works with the existing machinery of Capitalism, talks and thinks in the existing terms of Capitalism, appeals to just those appetites which Capitalism has aroused, and ridicules as fantastic and unheard-of just those things in society the memory of which Capitalism has killed among men wherever the blight of it has spread."
- Hilaire Belloc -
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4/14/2013 9:51:56 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
I also tend to not play nice with other Libertarians, as I can't keep my mouth shut when it comes to geopolitics and some of my pet peeves with popular libertarian thought. I also find lock-step Paul devotees and the Rand fans who reduce their collection of descriptive euphemisms to 'looter', 'moocher', and 'parasite' to be equally grating.
"The Collectivist experiment is thoroughly suited (in appearance at least) to the Capitalist society which it proposes to replace. It works with the existing machinery of Capitalism, talks and thinks in the existing terms of Capitalism, appeals to just those appetites which Capitalism has aroused, and ridicules as fantastic and unheard-of just those things in society the memory of which Capitalism has killed among men wherever the blight of it has spread."
- Hilaire Belloc -
Izayah003
Posts: 369
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4/14/2013 9:53:43 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
Yes, my wife is conservative, i can count maybe 3-4 friends of mine who are libertarian, and the others are about even when it comes to conservative and liberal, I tend to enjoy talking to people of other views, there isn't much fun in just talking to people who agree with you all the time. But it also helps me to understand and shape my opinions. and in those conversations i also find it either firms my stance or changes it.
"When a man who is honestly mistaken hears the truth, he will either quit being mistaken or cease to be honest." - Abraham Lincoln
Cowboy0108
Posts: 420
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4/14/2013 9:54:48 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
I have friends that are democrats. I asked them why they are democrats, they can never give me a good answer. They are Christians but believe that there is nothing wrong with abortion or gays. I do not understand this. And I am the same, my conservative friends are often on the other end of the conservative spectrum(I am militaristic and they are isolationists) and often appear to be socially liberal(gay rights and abortion).
Izayah003
Posts: 369
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4/14/2013 9:56:31 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 4/14/2013 9:20:07 PM, lewis20 wrote:
At 4/14/2013 9:13:27 PM, thett3 wrote:
At 4/14/2013 9:09:30 PM, Contra wrote:
At 4/14/2013 8:59:28 PM, thett3 wrote:
This could go in personal but whatever. As most of you know I'm a right-libertarian, however my friends are not so and I'm wondering if its the same for anyone else here. My friends are almost without exception unapologetically liberal, there are still a few old friends who are conservatives but most of the conservatives I interact with now I dont really like, and I detest most libertarians and ron-paul bots in real life (not on DDO) even though we agree on most everything, so I'd rather hang out woith liberals who I generally view as good intentioned but misguided.

Are the Paulbots/ libertarians arrogant? Out of curiosity?

Hell the f*ck yes they are, a bunch of smug cockksure psuedo intellectuals for the most part. This is only speaking for the ones I know personally however, which is not even slightly a large or accurate sample for most libertarians..just look at the ones on DDO

Don't pull any punches there, is the libertarian platform not the best of the major parties? Aren't they usually more educated than in both history and politics than the (common man) members of the two main political parties?
You could hurl any of those insults at any of the pundits on fox or msnbc and they'd be more true.

lol thats stretching, the tea party said the same thing about them being smarter then everyone else too, look were that got them...
"When a man who is honestly mistaken hears the truth, he will either quit being mistaken or cease to be honest." - Abraham Lincoln