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Boston Bomber a serial killer/spree killer?

Wnope
Posts: 6,924
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4/27/2013 4:25:14 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
There are some facts I scanned over that I think really help flesh out what kind of people we are dealing with. The older brother is not your average "I'll sacrifice everything for allah" radical.

For instance, we know the Russians alerted the FBI and CIA that the older brother was radicalized sometime around 2010. However, they came over from the Chechnyan separatist movement between ages of 8 and 15, meaning they'd have memories of Russian aggression against the separatists. These involved massacres of the worst kind.

There is something known as the "myth of 'out of character' crime" which tends to be reported along the lines of everyone who knows the person saying things like "This is so out of character." "I cant believe this was him." "He didn't act anything like this."

However, what struck me as extremely relevant to this was that the older brother probably committed a triple-homicide wherein he slit the throats and of several rappers who trained at his boxing gym and dumped marijuana on their bodies. 5,000 dollars were left untouched at the crime scene. No one remotely suspect the older brother till after the bombing, but found ad hoc clues.

http://www.buzzfeed.com...

If this is the case, and the older brother met them after 2010, then he either

A. spent months preparing to kill three men he spent time with
B. when shown that these men were drug dealers (which the massive amounts of marijuana suggest) he went into a fury and killed three men with a knife at the same time.

The fact that the older brother stopped all contact with relevant friends to those victims also suggests it may have been a set up.

The trip to the caucuses took place several months AFTER the triple homicide and several YEARS after Russia claimed he was radicalized. However, Russia never claimed in 2010 he made any contact with radical groups.

In Dagestan he apparently spent most of his time out at night (slept till 3pm according to his father.

As much as we like to demonize terrorists, only a minority are mentally unstable sociopaths (though disproprtionate compared to normal populations). Jihadist camps actually tend to NOT let in completely impulsive psychopaths since they are unreliable.

All signs seems to point away from a "went to camp for six months and became a terrorist" explanation.

While he may have been radicalized towards Islam in 2010, you don't simply "become" a sociopath capable of ritualistically killing three men with a knife/sharp object (recall he dumped marijuana on the bodies AFTER killing them). More importantly he did this ON HIS OWN. There was no local cell to influence him, and his local mosque actually kicked him out for fanaticism.

It may be connected to his childhood, but that older brother was NOT some kind of brainwashed jihadist product. He was a killer in the making, and jihadism's link to chechnyan separatism made it a viable option.

(NOTE: There is no inherent link between jihadism/Islam and chechnyan separatism. It was artificially forged in recent decades to channel islamic funds into the Chechnyan movement.)
Wnope
Posts: 6,924
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4/27/2013 4:26:27 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
Also, the fact that he managed to kill three men who went to a boxing gym regularly without leaving any traces of his own blood further suggest premeditation.
Eitan_Zohar
Posts: 2,697
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4/27/2013 4:28:56 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 4/27/2013 4:25:14 PM, Wnope wrote:
(NOTE: There is no inherent link between jihadism/Islam and chechnyan separatism. It was artificially forged in recent decades to channel islamic funds into the Chechnyan movement.)

I don't want to derail this thread and all, but this sounds quite a bit like the Israel-Palestine conflict as well. First it was Pan-Arabism trying to liberate Palestine, now it's Jihadism.
"It is my ambition to say in ten sentences what others say in a whole book."
Wnope
Posts: 6,924
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4/27/2013 4:36:11 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
I gotta say, something just hit me. It's pure speculation of course.

Namely, just what in the hell would $5,000 in cash be doing in the house of an at-best middle-class worker?

Secondly, it takes quite a bit more than an ounce of marijuana to be "dumped" over three bodies.

Now, say marijuana in boston costs around $300 dollars an ounce. If you had $5,000, this would mean around 16 ounces.

There are 16 ounces in a pound.

I think there's a good chance that money was meant to purchase a pound of marijuana.
Wnope
Posts: 6,924
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4/27/2013 4:37:27 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 4/27/2013 4:28:56 PM, Eitan_Zohar wrote:
At 4/27/2013 4:25:14 PM, Wnope wrote:
(NOTE: There is no inherent link between jihadism/Islam and chechnyan separatism. It was artificially forged in recent decades to channel islamic funds into the Chechnyan movement.)

I don't want to derail this thread and all, but this sounds quite a bit like the Israel-Palestine conflict as well. First it was Pan-Arabism trying to liberate Palestine, now it's Jihadism.

Well, that's a bit more complicated, since Hamas is an offshoot of the Muslim Brotherhood, and the Muslim Brotherhood was were a large portion of Al Qaedas philosophy/leaders came from.
Eitan_Zohar
Posts: 2,697
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4/27/2013 4:45:27 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 4/27/2013 4:37:27 PM, Wnope wrote:
At 4/27/2013 4:28:56 PM, Eitan_Zohar wrote:
At 4/27/2013 4:25:14 PM, Wnope wrote:
(NOTE: There is no inherent link between jihadism/Islam and chechnyan separatism. It was artificially forged in recent decades to channel islamic funds into the Chechnyan movement.)

I don't want to derail this thread and all, but this sounds quite a bit like the Israel-Palestine conflict as well. First it was Pan-Arabism trying to liberate Palestine, now it's Jihadism.

Well, that's a bit more complicated, since Hamas is an offshoot of the Muslim Brotherhood, and the Muslim Brotherhood was were a large portion of Al Qaedas philosophy/leaders came from.

No, the entire Palestinian movement (Intifada and things like that) receives support from around the Muslim world. That's why Obama is trying to pressure Netanyahu to leave the West Bank. He's trying to fix America's image in the Middle East, and you can see other well-known American political figures trying to do it as well (Carter, Brzezinski, etc).
"It is my ambition to say in ten sentences what others say in a whole book."
Wnope
Posts: 6,924
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4/27/2013 4:51:06 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 4/27/2013 4:45:27 PM, Eitan_Zohar wrote:
At 4/27/2013 4:37:27 PM, Wnope wrote:
At 4/27/2013 4:28:56 PM, Eitan_Zohar wrote:
At 4/27/2013 4:25:14 PM, Wnope wrote:
(NOTE: There is no inherent link between jihadism/Islam and chechnyan separatism. It was artificially forged in recent decades to channel islamic funds into the Chechnyan movement.)

I don't want to derail this thread and all, but this sounds quite a bit like the Israel-Palestine conflict as well. First it was Pan-Arabism trying to liberate Palestine, now it's Jihadism.

Well, that's a bit more complicated, since Hamas is an offshoot of the Muslim Brotherhood, and the Muslim Brotherhood was were a large portion of Al Qaedas philosophy/leaders came from.

No, the entire Palestinian movement (Intifada and things like that) receives support from around the Muslim world. That's why Obama is trying to pressure Netanyahu to leave the West Bank. He's trying to fix America's image in the Middle East, and you can see other well-known American political figures trying to do it as well (Carter, Brzezinski, etc).

Palestine and such is quite religious and involves driving jews from the holy lands. Heck, look at what started the Intifada.

But chechnya was a largely secular matter. Many chechnyans were muslims, but their goals would not advance any great jihadist aim like "establishing a caliphate."

It wasn't until after the import of jihadist leaders and money that Chechnyans took that turn.
Wnope
Posts: 6,924
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4/27/2013 4:52:22 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 4/27/2013 4:51:06 PM, Wnope wrote:
At 4/27/2013 4:45:27 PM, Eitan_Zohar wrote:
At 4/27/2013 4:37:27 PM, Wnope wrote:
At 4/27/2013 4:28:56 PM, Eitan_Zohar wrote:
At 4/27/2013 4:25:14 PM, Wnope wrote:
(NOTE: There is no inherent link between jihadism/Islam and chechnyan separatism. It was artificially forged in recent decades to channel islamic funds into the Chechnyan movement.)

I don't want to derail this thread and all, but this sounds quite a bit like the Israel-Palestine conflict as well. First it was Pan-Arabism trying to liberate Palestine, now it's Jihadism.

Well, that's a bit more complicated, since Hamas is an offshoot of the Muslim Brotherhood, and the Muslim Brotherhood was were a large portion of Al Qaedas philosophy/leaders came from.

No, the entire Palestinian movement (Intifada and things like that) receives support from around the Muslim world. That's why Obama is trying to pressure Netanyahu to leave the West Bank. He's trying to fix America's image in the Middle East, and you can see other well-known American political figures trying to do it as well (Carter, Brzezinski, etc).


Palestine and such is quite religious and involves driving jews from the holy lands. Heck, look at what started the Intifada.

But chechnya was a largely secular matter. Many chechnyans were muslims, but their goals would not advance any great jihadist aim like "establishing a caliphate."

It wasn't until after the import of jihadist leaders and money that Chechnyans took that turn.

Also there is zero international pressure to solve the Russia/Chechnyan problem. Russia wants us to stay the hell out, and Americans stopped caring after the Chechnyans started blowing up schools.
Zetsubou
Posts: 4,933
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4/27/2013 5:08:22 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
We don't know their specific motivation or the case specifics so I treat everything in regards to motive thus far as speculation. We don't know if they're serial killers, nationalist terrorists or islamist terrorists.

Your argument seems to be based on the fact that he did commit this triple homicide, which we can't yet assume. Even if he did, what I find interesting is that the murderer slit the throats of the victims. This in Islam is zabiha, the characteristic Islamic method for the execution of both man and animal.

Here's a NSFW video of Dagestani Islamist executing a Russian POW in the same way.
http://www.liveleak.com...

This same method occurs today in Iraq, Nigeria and Syria; in the UK a Kurdish man killed his 16 year daughter in a cultural honour killing in the same way. It's a humiliation, as it reduces the victim (kafir) to the class of an animal, which in Islam is to be killed in the same way. If it was a secular killing as you argue, wouldn't stabbing or shooting be easier or more humane than letting one drown in their own blood?

I might add that the three were not just rappers but one, at the very least, was a close friend which Tsarnaev mourned for.

Let law enforcement do their job and then later we can talk politics and criminal classification.

----
Chenism separatism, under the Dudayev leadership, was once noble and independent of Sunni Islamism or drug trafficking but it isn't now. Do not increasingly politicise this case by bring in the irrelevant. This is about two individuals, not what happened in the Russian Caucaus or the Islamism in large.
'sup DDO -- july 2013
Wnope
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4/27/2013 6:29:50 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 4/27/2013 5:08:22 PM, Zetsubou wrote:
We don't know their specific motivation or the case specifics so I treat everything in regards to motive thus far as speculation. We don't know if they're serial killers, nationalist terrorists or islamist terrorists.

Your argument seems to be based on the fact that he did commit this triple homicide, which we can't yet assume. Even if he did, what I find interesting is that the murderer slit the throats of the victims. This in Islam is zabiha, the characteristic Islamic method for the execution of both man and animal.

Here's a NSFW video of Dagestani Islamist executing a Russian POW in the same way.
http://www.liveleak.com...

This same method occurs today in Iraq, Nigeria and Syria; in the UK a Kurdish man killed his 16 year daughter in a cultural honour killing in the same way. It's a humiliation, as it reduces the victim (kafir) to the class of an animal, which in Islam is to be killed in the same way. If it was a secular killing as you argue, wouldn't stabbing or shooting be easier or more humane than letting one drown in their own blood?

I might add that the three were not just rappers but one, at the very least, was a close friend which Tsarnaev mourned for.

Let law enforcement do their job and then later we can talk politics and criminal classification.

----
Chenism separatism, under the Dudayev leadership, was once noble and independent of Sunni Islamism or drug trafficking but it isn't now. Do not increasingly politicise this case by bring in the irrelevant. This is about two individuals, not what happened in the Russian Caucaus or the Islamism in large.

If you'd read what I've been writing, you'd note I've already stated Chechnyan separatism was formerly independent of islam and suicide bombing of childrens schools and other such things.
Double_R
Posts: 4,886
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4/27/2013 9:34:26 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 4/27/2013 5:08:22 PM, Zetsubou wrote:
We don't know their specific motivation or the case specifics so I treat everything in regards to motive thus far as speculation. We don't know if they're serial killers, nationalist terrorists or islamist terrorists.

Your argument seems to be based on the fact that he did commit this triple homicide, which we can't yet assume. Even if he did, what I find interesting is that the murderer slit the throats of the victims. This in Islam is zabiha, the characteristic Islamic method for the execution of both man and animal.

Here's a NSFW video of Dagestani Islamist executing a Russian POW in the same way.
http://www.liveleak.com...

This same method occurs today in Iraq, Nigeria and Syria; in the UK a Kurdish man killed his 16 year daughter in a cultural honour killing in the same way. It's a humiliation, as it reduces the victim (kafir) to the class of an animal, which in Islam is to be killed in the same way. If it was a secular killing as you argue, wouldn't stabbing or shooting be easier or more humane than letting one drown in their own blood?

I might add that the three were not just rappers but one, at the very least, was a close friend which Tsarnaev mourned for.

: Let law enforcement do their job and then later we can talk politics and criminal classification.

This is debate.org... NO