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Who will build the roads?

Wallstreetatheist
Posts: 7,132
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4/28/2013 12:37:38 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
Not the government, so Egyptians are building them themselves, and now the government is annoyed.
http://www.nytimes.com...
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Citrakayah
Posts: 1,500
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4/28/2013 1:55:44 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
Leaving out the part about people illegally demolishing houses, I see. Not surprised.

Also, it seems that they're building only one road, and from the sound of it it isn't well-put together...
lewis20
Posts: 5,093
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4/28/2013 2:04:07 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 4/28/2013 1:55:44 PM, Citrakayah wrote:
Also, it seems that they're building only one road, and from the sound of it it isn't well-put together...

Sounds like they'd fit right in here, Indiana can't build roads for sht. But hey it's digging ditches, if they did a good job the first time they wouldn't have a job going back and fixing them.
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Wallstreetatheist
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4/28/2013 2:42:20 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 4/28/2013 1:55:44 PM, Citrakayah wrote:
Leaving out the part about people illegally demolishing houses, I see. Not surprised.

Also, it seems that they're building only one road, and from the sound of it it isn't well-put together...

You make me want to cry. I do not like this feeling.
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Citrakayah
Posts: 1,500
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4/28/2013 3:13:04 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 4/28/2013 2:42:20 PM, Wallstreetatheist wrote:
At 4/28/2013 1:55:44 PM, Citrakayah wrote:
Leaving out the part about people illegally demolishing houses, I see. Not surprised.

Also, it seems that they're building only one road, and from the sound of it it isn't well-put together...

You make me want to cry. I do not like this feeling.

Yep, that's me. The an-cap's boogeyman. Claws of pure logic and fangs of wit, et cetera et cetera.

At 4/28/2013 2:04:07 PM, lewis20 wrote:
At 4/28/2013 1:55:44 PM, Citrakayah wrote:
Also, it seems that they're building only one road, and from the sound of it it isn't well-put together...

Sounds like they'd fit right in here, Indiana can't build roads for sht. But hey it's digging ditches, if they did a good job the first time they wouldn't have a job going back and fixing them.

Yes, well, given that it's a ramp I'm a bit worried about it collapsing.... they are making it out of trash.
Cody_Franklin
Posts: 9,483
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4/28/2013 3:29:43 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 4/28/2013 3:13:04 PM, Citrakayah wrote:
At 4/28/2013 2:42:20 PM, Wallstreetatheist wrote:
At 4/28/2013 1:55:44 PM, Citrakayah wrote:
Leaving out the part about people illegally demolishing houses, I see. Not surprised.

Also, it seems that they're building only one road, and from the sound of it it isn't well-put together...

You make me want to cry. I do not like this feeling.

Yep, that's me. The an-cap's boogeyman. Claws of pure logic and fangs of wit, et cetera et cetera.

Doesn't that imply that AnCaps are uniformly dense and irrational?
Citrakayah
Posts: 1,500
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4/28/2013 4:04:57 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 4/28/2013 3:29:43 PM, Cody_Franklin wrote:
At 4/28/2013 3:13:04 PM, Citrakayah wrote:
At 4/28/2013 2:42:20 PM, Wallstreetatheist wrote:
At 4/28/2013 1:55:44 PM, Citrakayah wrote:
Leaving out the part about people illegally demolishing houses, I see. Not surprised.

Also, it seems that they're building only one road, and from the sound of it it isn't well-put together...

You make me want to cry. I do not like this feeling.

Yep, that's me. The an-cap's boogeyman. Claws of pure logic and fangs of wit, et cetera et cetera.

Doesn't that imply that AnCaps are uniformly dense and irrational?

Not really. It's meant to imply that when someone responds flippantly to a point I made like WSA did, I have a tendency to reply in a flippant manner as well.

AnCaps aren't uniformly dense and irrational, and for that matter the fact that the road isn't working out too well doesn't refute ancap because it is, after all, organized in a country with a government and all.

More than anything else I think it's just silly to give this as an example of a viable anarcho-capitalist alternative to government infrastructure, because... well, it's being built out of trash bags and dirt.
Greyparrot
Posts: 14,287
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4/28/2013 4:06:54 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 4/28/2013 4:04:57 PM, Citrakayah wrote:
At 4/28/2013 3:29:43 PM, Cody_Franklin wrote:
At 4/28/2013 3:13:04 PM, Citrakayah wrote:
At 4/28/2013 2:42:20 PM, Wallstreetatheist wrote:
At 4/28/2013 1:55:44 PM, Citrakayah wrote:
Leaving out the part about people illegally demolishing houses, I see. Not surprised.

Also, it seems that they're building only one road, and from the sound of it it isn't well-put together...

You make me want to cry. I do not like this feeling.

Yep, that's me. The an-cap's boogeyman. Claws of pure logic and fangs of wit, et cetera et cetera.

Doesn't that imply that AnCaps are uniformly dense and irrational?

Not really. It's meant to imply that when someone responds flippantly to a point I made like WSA did, I have a tendency to reply in a flippant manner as well.

AnCaps aren't uniformly dense and irrational, and for that matter the fact that the road isn't working out too well doesn't refute ancap because it is, after all, organized in a country with a government and all.

More than anything else I think it's just silly to give this as an example of a viable anarcho-capitalist alternative to government infrastructure, because... well, it's being built out of trash bags and dirt.

The alternative is a ramp built of air and false promises from the government?
Mustachero
Posts: 84
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4/28/2013 4:32:53 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 4/28/2013 4:06:54 PM, Greyparrot wrote:
At 4/28/2013 4:04:57 PM, Citrakayah wrote:
At 4/28/2013 3:29:43 PM, Cody_Franklin wrote:
At 4/28/2013 3:13:04 PM, Citrakayah wrote:
At 4/28/2013 2:42:20 PM, Wallstreetatheist wrote:
At 4/28/2013 1:55:44 PM, Citrakayah wrote:
Leaving out the part about people illegally demolishing houses, I see. Not surprised.

Also, it seems that they're building only one road, and from the sound of it it isn't well-put together...

You make me want to cry. I do not like this feeling.

Yep, that's me. The an-cap's boogeyman. Claws of pure logic and fangs of wit, et cetera et cetera.

Doesn't that imply that AnCaps are uniformly dense and irrational?

Not really. It's meant to imply that when someone responds flippantly to a point I made like WSA did, I have a tendency to reply in a flippant manner as well.

AnCaps aren't uniformly dense and irrational, and for that matter the fact that the road isn't working out too well doesn't refute ancap because it is, after all, organized in a country with a government and all.

More than anything else I think it's just silly to give this as an example of a viable anarcho-capitalist alternative to government infrastructure, because... well, it's being built out of trash bags and dirt.

The alternative is a ramp built of air and false promises from the government?

Although government projects are generally slow and overbudget, its usually better than the people getting into the street and building a road without any supervision of any type. What if they use a substandard asphalt that doesn't withstand heat well? Will the road even be uniform? The trust that a voluntary society requires in others simply would not work in a human society due to the natural wish to get things done the easy way. A machine is only as good as its parts.
Citrakayah
Posts: 1,500
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4/28/2013 4:34:29 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 4/28/2013 4:06:54 PM, Greyparrot wrote:
At 4/28/2013 4:04:57 PM, Citrakayah wrote:
At 4/28/2013 3:29:43 PM, Cody_Franklin wrote:
At 4/28/2013 3:13:04 PM, Citrakayah wrote:
At 4/28/2013 2:42:20 PM, Wallstreetatheist wrote:
At 4/28/2013 1:55:44 PM, Citrakayah wrote:
Leaving out the part about people illegally demolishing houses, I see. Not surprised.

Also, it seems that they're building only one road, and from the sound of it it isn't well-put together...

You make me want to cry. I do not like this feeling.

Yep, that's me. The an-cap's boogeyman. Claws of pure logic and fangs of wit, et cetera et cetera.

Doesn't that imply that AnCaps are uniformly dense and irrational?

Not really. It's meant to imply that when someone responds flippantly to a point I made like WSA did, I have a tendency to reply in a flippant manner as well.

AnCaps aren't uniformly dense and irrational, and for that matter the fact that the road isn't working out too well doesn't refute ancap because it is, after all, organized in a country with a government and all.

More than anything else I think it's just silly to give this as an example of a viable anarcho-capitalist alternative to government infrastructure, because... well, it's being built out of trash bags and dirt.

The alternative is a ramp built of air and false promises from the government?

Well, it's Egypt, so more or less. But depending on the circumstances, no ramp might be better than a ramp that collapses and kills a dozen people.
Cody_Franklin
Posts: 9,483
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4/28/2013 11:50:34 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 4/28/2013 4:04:57 PM, Citrakayah wrote:
At 4/28/2013 3:29:43 PM, Cody_Franklin wrote:
At 4/28/2013 3:13:04 PM, Citrakayah wrote:
At 4/28/2013 2:42:20 PM, Wallstreetatheist wrote:
At 4/28/2013 1:55:44 PM, Citrakayah wrote:
Leaving out the part about people illegally demolishing houses, I see. Not surprised.

Also, it seems that they're building only one road, and from the sound of it it isn't well-put together...

You make me want to cry. I do not like this feeling.

Yep, that's me. The an-cap's boogeyman. Claws of pure logic and fangs of wit, et cetera et cetera.

Doesn't that imply that AnCaps are uniformly dense and irrational?

Not really. It's meant to imply that when someone responds flippantly to a point I made like WSA did, I have a tendency to reply in a flippant manner as well.

Fair enough.

AnCaps aren't uniformly dense and irrational, and for that matter the fact that the road isn't working out too well doesn't refute ancap because it is, after all, organized in a country with a government and all.

More than anything else I think it's just silly to give this as an example of a viable anarcho-capitalist alternative to government infrastructure, because... well, it's being built out of trash bags and dirt.

Is there any indication that the road "isn't working out too well"? Dirt roads aren't inherently non-functional or practically inferior to paved roads (particularly given that it's an access road, that it's probably cobbled together from cheap, available materials, that the clear alternative is not having a road, and that, insofar as those who use it are satisfied with its performance, it's none of our business), and I found nothing in the article to suggest that the road was a failure. As far as I can tell, their construction is just an expression of their preferences. Perhaps someone will be killed by a road or ramp that breaks down, but a) they're taking control of their city, so it's their decision; b) potholes and old bridges, common for paved roads in disrepair owing to government negligence or budget constraints, also kill people, which means that, apart from the pejorative connotation assigned to roads constructed from refuse and dirt, the issue is neither unique nor obviously cause for intense worry; c) policy debates are not one-sided, nor should we expect actualized forms of life to manifest without drawbacks. People would probably die from malnutrition or disease without the access road, and someone will probably die from a ramp's collapse. The world is not fair, and these individuals do not deserve to die, but they knew what they were signing up for when constructing their roads this way, and they continued anyway because they did a calculation and organized their priorities accordingly. Trying to manufacture societies in our own image because we think we know better isn't helpful; it's armchair reformism. These people have to live with their choices, and they know the stakes: the forms of life they construct for themselves out there are products of necessity, ingenuity, and resource constraints, and, even if their specific solutions aren't "adequate" according to our metrics, the way that these people are taking responsibility for themselves, uniting their creativity and productivity with their immediate needs, and taking advantage of the opportunities created by the dissolution of Mubarak's regime (and the rise in its place of the largely-ineffectual administration of the Muslim Brotherhood) is exactly the kind of attitude and grasping of potentiality that would make anarchism function. In a world as dark as ours often is, in which I hear frequent cynicism toward the possibility of functional statelessness, this actually fills me with hope that, if and when we all discover life and possibility outside the state, we will be equipped to make full use of our new power.
DanT
Posts: 5,693
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4/29/2013 10:49:40 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 4/28/2013 1:55:44 PM, Citrakayah wrote:
Leaving out the part about people illegally demolishing houses, I see. Not surprised.

I thought it said they were illegally building houses......

"For years, the government of Hosni Mubarak turned a blind eye as millions of poor Cairenes built homes without permission on private plots of agricultural land"

Also, it seems that they're building only one road, and from the sound of it it isn't well-put together...

They are building it out of trash, because they are poor. The point you are missing, is that if there is a demand for a road, the people will build it themselves. If this took place in the US, the road would be better built. When I lived in Florida, there was a sink hole at the entrance of my street. The city didn't want to pay for it, so my grandfather paid to have it fixed, in order to protect his family.
"Chemical weapons are no different than any other types of weapons."~Lordknukle
Wallstreetatheist
Posts: 7,132
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4/29/2013 11:04:27 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 4/28/2013 3:13:04 PM, Citrakayah wrote:
At 4/28/2013 2:42:20 PM, Wallstreetatheist wrote:
At 4/28/2013 1:55:44 PM, Citrakayah wrote:
Leaving out the part about people illegally demolishing houses, I see. Not surprised.

Also, it seems that they're building only one road, and from the sound of it it isn't well-put together...

You make me want to cry. I do not like this feeling.

Yep, that's me. The an-cap's boogeyman. Claws of pure logic and fangs of wit, et cetera et cetera.

No, it was because what you said was not germane to the point being demonstrated whatsoever.
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Citrakayah
Posts: 1,500
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5/2/2013 4:02:49 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
They aren"t inherently non-functional or practically inferior, but my concern is that it"s a ramp. If it were really just another road"no problem. Might be better to do it as part of an overall plan to maximize efficiency and minimize traffic jams, but not exactly like they have a lot of choice. What I"m worried about is more along the lines of a flood or earthquake causing a total collapse and a hundred or so people dying.

In retrospect, I was probably too skeptical towards the success of the road. Ideally first a plan would be drawn up, using slime mold patterned algorithms to determine maximum efficiency and testing for all plausible forms of stress (bombing, earthquake, flood, et cetera), then adequately compensated workers would be hired to build the road using environmentally friendly materials, and then we"d have a big ribbon cutting ceremony with the stereotypical large scissors, large quantities of cheese, and cookies (I like cookies). But, like you said, the world isn"t ideal, and I don"t think I properly appreciated the dichotomy involved, especially since recently Egypt has taken a turn for the authoritarian and is unlikely to turn into Sweden anytime soon.

tl;dr: I was wrong.
Wallstreetatheist
Posts: 7,132
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5/2/2013 6:21:12 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 5/2/2013 4:02:49 PM, Citrakayah wrote:
But, like you said, the world isn"t ideal, and I don"t think I properly appreciated the dichotomy involved, especially since recently Egypt has taken a turn for the authoritarian and is unlikely to turn into Sweden anytime soon.

What is attractive about Sweden to you?
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Wallstreetatheist
Posts: 7,132
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5/2/2013 6:37:38 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 5/2/2013 6:22:32 PM, Sanfran wrote:
contructions workers

Good point
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Sanfran
Posts: 102
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5/2/2013 6:42:04 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 5/2/2013 6:37:38 PM, Wallstreetatheist wrote:
At 5/2/2013 6:22:32 PM, Sanfran wrote:
contructions workers

Good point

i know it is.
Thaddeus
Posts: 6,985
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5/2/2013 7:40:53 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 5/2/2013 6:42:04 PM, Sanfran wrote:
At 5/2/2013 6:37:38 PM, Wallstreetatheist wrote:
At 5/2/2013 6:22:32 PM, Sanfran wrote:
contructions workers

Good point

i know it is.

lol, u're f*cktarded my mentally challlenged compatriot
drafterman
Posts: 18,870
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5/2/2013 8:04:59 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 5/2/2013 6:21:12 PM, Wallstreetatheist wrote:
At 5/2/2013 4:02:49 PM, Citrakayah wrote:
But, like you said, the world isn"t ideal, and I don"t think I properly appreciated the dichotomy involved, especially since recently Egypt has taken a turn for the authoritarian and is unlikely to turn into Sweden anytime soon.

What is attractive about Sweden to you?

The Swedish.

http://images.intomobile.com...
Wallstreetatheist
Posts: 7,132
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5/2/2013 8:23:55 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 5/2/2013 8:04:59 PM, drafterman wrote:
At 5/2/2013 6:21:12 PM, Wallstreetatheist wrote:
At 5/2/2013 4:02:49 PM, Citrakayah wrote:
But, like you said, the world isn"t ideal, and I don"t think I properly appreciated the dichotomy involved, especially since recently Egypt has taken a turn for the authoritarian and is unlikely to turn into Sweden anytime soon.

What is attractive about Sweden to you?

The Swedish.

http://images.intomobile.com...

It would appear so. http://www.telegraph.co.uk...
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Sanfran
Posts: 102
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5/2/2013 8:37:41 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 5/2/2013 7:40:53 PM, Thaddeus wrote:
At 5/2/2013 6:42:04 PM, Sanfran wrote:
At 5/2/2013 6:37:38 PM, Wallstreetatheist wrote:
At 5/2/2013 6:22:32 PM, Sanfran wrote:
contructions workers

Good point

i know it is.

lol, u're f*cktarded my mentally challlenged compatriot

im not mental. you are.
Citrakayah
Posts: 1,500
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5/3/2013 8:23:58 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 5/2/2013 6:21:12 PM, Wallstreetatheist wrote:
At 5/2/2013 4:02:49 PM, Citrakayah wrote:
But, like you said, the world isn"t ideal, and I don"t think I properly appreciated the dichotomy involved, especially since recently Egypt has taken a turn for the authoritarian and is unlikely to turn into Sweden anytime soon.

What is attractive about Sweden to you?

Public health care, high standard of living, fairly socially progressive, public transportation, publicly funded college, the moose... also the lovli lakes. And the wonderful telephone system. And mani interesting furry animals. Including the majestic moose. A moose once bit my sister...

Oh, and the Swedes.