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Cannabalism under Communism

Wallstreetatheist
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5/1/2013 4:47:43 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
State socialism (i.e., collectivizing the means of production and abandoning property rights) has resulted in starvation and cannibalism with a terrifyingly level of frequency. I compiled just a few examples:

North Korea (1997): "We started seeing cannibalism. When one is very hungry, one can go crazy. One woman in my town killed her 7-month-old baby, and ate the baby with another woman. That woman"s son reported them both to the authorities. I can"t condemn cannibalism. Not that I wanted to eat human meat, but we were so hungry. It was common that people went to a fresh grave and dug up a body to eat meat. I witnessed a woman being questioned for cannibalism. She said it tasted good."

Ukraine, Vasily Grossman: "Some went insane. They never did become completely still. One could tell from their eyes"because their eyes shone. These were the people who cut up and cooked corpses, who killed their own children and ate them. In them the beast rose to the top as the human being died. I saw one. She had been brought to the district center under convoy. Her face was human, but her eyes were those of a wolf. These are cannibals." (p. 164)

Soviet Union, V.I. Lenin: "It is now and only now, when in the regions afflicted by the famine there is cannibalism and the roads are littered with hundreds if not thousands of corpses, that we can (and therefore must) pursue the acquisition of [church] valuables with the most ferocious and merciless energy, stopping at nothing in suppressing all resistance."

China: "Most of the culprits on the list practiced necrophagy, either eating those who had passed away or exhuming and eating cadavers after burial. When a team of inspectors was sent to review the Quiatou commune in Shizhu county, Sichuan, in early 1961, they were startled by the extent of cannibalism. In some cases, only parts of a body were eaten Zemin"s heart, for instance, was scooped out. Some people covered the meat in hot peppers." (p. 323)

Jamestown, VA: "So great was our famine that a savage we slew and buried, the poorer sorte tooke him up againe and eat him; and so did divers one another boyled and stewed with roots and herbs. It were too vile to say and scarce to be believed, what we endured: but the occasion was our own, for want of providence, industrie and government, and not the barrennesse and defect of the Country, as is generally supposed." Update: the recent discovery of a skeleton in Jamestown has proven this account.

"Can you really find anyone who is guilty? Just go and ask, and they will all tell you that they did it for the sake of virtue, for everybody"s good. That"s why they drove mothers to cannibalism." - Vasily Grossman

http://blog.skepticallibertarian.com...
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Eitan_Zohar
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5/1/2013 4:57:06 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
Not sure what "communist" society is listed here.
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Wallstreetatheist
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5/1/2013 5:03:50 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 5/1/2013 4:57:06 PM, Eitan_Zohar wrote:
Not sure what "communist" society is listed here.

You can substitute state-socialist if you like. The feature that is most relevant is central planning.

http://en.wikipedia.org...
http://en.wikipedia.org...
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R0b1Billion
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5/1/2013 7:51:53 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
...and nothing bad ever happened under capitalism.
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Citrakayah
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5/1/2013 7:55:13 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
Hmm, so state socialism leads to cannibalism, is that your case? Rather than arguing that, perhaps, when your government is run by psychopaths during a famine, cannibalism might ensue?

Let's leave aside the fact that cannibalism may have been less widespread than reported (http://www.washingtonpost.com...). Let's leave aside the fact that people like Boone Helm also engaged in cannibalism.

Leaving aside all those, I am still wondering how fvck you get the idea that the Starving Times were caused by socialism. As opposed to the documented causes of poor planning, climatic conditions, and malaria.

Jamestown was socialism, either, it was a contracted company. So that fails on multiple counts.

http://www.nytimes.com...

Oh, and if you claim that China and Soviet Russia were socialist, then you are either extremely gullible or don't know what socialism is. You can't have socialism without democracy, because socialism depends on the common ownership of the means of production (not actually the abolition of private property, that is communism). Common ownership of the means of production can't happen if the people who own it aren't allowed to make basic decisions about how to use it, for the same reason that if I take over your house, run a porn studio out the back along with a greenhouse and let you use the tiny upper two rooms, you aren't in control of your house. I am.
Noumena
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5/1/2013 8:04:47 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 5/1/2013 7:51:53 PM, R0b1Billion wrote:
...and nothing bad ever happened under capitalism.

Observation fitting is more fun than debating coherently the respective pros/cons of a given socio-economic order.

Though I think the equivocation of communism with state-socialism is a more damaging thought.
: At 5/13/2014 7:05:20 PM, Crescendo wrote:
: The difference is that the gay movement is currently pushing their will on Churches, as shown in the link to gay marriage in Denmark. Meanwhile, the Inquisition ended several centuries ago.
DetectableNinja
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5/1/2013 8:27:40 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
I don't like this topic, sorry.

It sounds like instead of actually trying to argue against communism in principle or in direct outcomes, this post seems like an argument based on correlations, and using an outcome/crime that's appellate to emotion.

Of course, cannibalism is by and large a terribly heinous thing, to be sure. But, no offense intended man, but I'm surprised this OP came from you, WSA. I would have expected something more of an actual analysis/criticism versus generalization and emotional appeal.
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Wallstreetatheist
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5/1/2013 8:46:12 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 5/1/2013 8:27:40 PM, DetectableNinja wrote:
I don't like this topic, sorry.

It sounds like instead of actually trying to argue against communism in principle or in direct outcomes, this post seems like an argument based on correlations, and using an outcome/crime that's appellate to emotion.

Of course, cannibalism is by and large a terribly heinous thing, to be sure. But, no offense intended man, but I'm surprised this OP came from you, WSA. I would have expected something more of an actual analysis/criticism versus generalization and emotional appeal.

What makes you think it came from me? What makes you think it is an emotional appeal?
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Wallstreetatheist
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5/1/2013 8:47:03 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 5/1/2013 8:04:47 PM, Noumena wrote:
At 5/1/2013 7:51:53 PM, R0b1Billion wrote:
...and nothing bad ever happened under capitalism.

Observation fitting is more fun than debating coherently the respective pros/cons of a given socio-economic order.

Though I think the equivocation of communism with state-socialism is a more damaging thought.

Central planning is the evil this is getting at.
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DetectableNinja
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5/1/2013 8:48:37 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 5/1/2013 8:46:12 PM, Wallstreetatheist wrote:
At 5/1/2013 8:27:40 PM, DetectableNinja wrote:
I don't like this topic, sorry.

It sounds like instead of actually trying to argue against communism in principle or in direct outcomes, this post seems like an argument based on correlations, and using an outcome/crime that's appellate to emotion.

Of course, cannibalism is by and large a terribly heinous thing, to be sure. But, no offense intended man, but I'm surprised this OP came from you, WSA. I would have expected something more of an actual analysis/criticism versus generalization and emotional appeal.

What makes you think it came from me? What makes you think it is an emotional appeal?

I would say it comes from you because you're the one who posted it. I can see it's from a blog, but by posting it it effectively is YOUR message as well.

It could be considered an emotional appeal because something like cannibalism is such a heinous crime that it essentially appeals to emotion by saying "Communism causes people to EAT EACH OTHER therefore it's EVOL."
Think'st thou heaven is such a glorious thing?
I tell thee, 'tis not half so fair as thou
Or any man that breathes on earth.

- Christopher Marlowe, Doctor Faustus
Noumena
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5/1/2013 8:50:53 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 5/1/2013 8:47:03 PM, Wallstreetatheist wrote:
At 5/1/2013 8:04:47 PM, Noumena wrote:
At 5/1/2013 7:51:53 PM, R0b1Billion wrote:
...and nothing bad ever happened under capitalism.

Observation fitting is more fun than debating coherently the respective pros/cons of a given socio-economic order.

Though I think the equivocation of communism with state-socialism is a more damaging thought.

Central planning is the evil this is getting at.

The lack of causation-reasoning is too strong to look past here. As if central planning CAUSED people to eat each other rather than a host of connecting factors.
: At 5/13/2014 7:05:20 PM, Crescendo wrote:
: The difference is that the gay movement is currently pushing their will on Churches, as shown in the link to gay marriage in Denmark. Meanwhile, the Inquisition ended several centuries ago.
Citrakayah
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5/1/2013 8:58:37 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 5/1/2013 8:27:40 PM, DetectableNinja wrote:
I don't like this topic, sorry.

It sounds like instead of actually trying to argue against communism in principle or in direct outcomes, this post seems like an argument based on correlations, and using an outcome/crime that's appellate to emotion.

Of course, cannibalism is by and large a terribly heinous thing, to be sure. But, no offense intended man, but I'm surprised this OP came from you, WSA. I would have expected something more of an actual analysis/criticism versus generalization and emotional appeal.


Perhaps he's jumped the shark?
Wallstreetatheist
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5/1/2013 8:58:57 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 5/1/2013 8:50:53 PM, Noumena wrote:
The lack of causation-reasoning is too strong to look past here. As if central planning CAUSED people to eat each other rather than a host of connecting factors.

Central planning destroys agriculture production. Without enough food, people are drawn to desperate measures to sustain themselves such as cannibalism. Comprende?
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Wallstreetatheist
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5/1/2013 8:59:56 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 5/1/2013 8:58:37 PM, Citrakayah wrote:
Perhaps he's jumped the shark?

Are you f*cking retarded? I posted the link where I found this post.
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Wallstreetatheist
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5/1/2013 9:02:49 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 5/1/2013 8:48:37 PM, DetectableNinja wrote:
I would say it comes from you because you're the one who posted it. I can see it's from a blog, but by posting it it effectively is YOUR message as well.

I shared it, because I found it interesting. I didn't realize it would foment such a great number of bizarre responses.

It could be considered an emotional appeal because something like cannibalism is such a heinous crime that it essentially appeals to emotion by saying "Communism causes people to EAT EACH OTHER therefore it's EVOL."

That's you adding in something that was not in there to begin with, then illogically pretending your subjective interpretation is the objective reality of the blog post.
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Noumena
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5/1/2013 9:28:38 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 5/1/2013 8:58:57 PM, Wallstreetatheist wrote:
At 5/1/2013 8:50:53 PM, Noumena wrote:
The lack of causation-reasoning is too strong to look past here. As if central planning CAUSED people to eat each other rather than a host of connecting factors.

Central planning destroys agriculture production. Without enough food, people are drawn to desperate measures to sustain themselves such as cannibalism. Comprende?

Yer over-simplifying the causal nature of the action though. Seriously it's not as if the places described above were extremely prosperous before the advent of their state-socialist systems. Not to say of course that state-socialism is optimal. Yer just being extremely simplistic here.
: At 5/13/2014 7:05:20 PM, Crescendo wrote:
: The difference is that the gay movement is currently pushing their will on Churches, as shown in the link to gay marriage in Denmark. Meanwhile, the Inquisition ended several centuries ago.
Citrakayah
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5/1/2013 9:36:20 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 5/1/2013 8:58:57 PM, Wallstreetatheist wrote:
At 5/1/2013 8:50:53 PM, Noumena wrote:
The lack of causation-reasoning is too strong to look past here. As if central planning CAUSED people to eat each other rather than a host of connecting factors.

Central planning destroys agriculture production. Without enough food, people are drawn to desperate measures to sustain themselves such as cannibalism. Comprende?

No, central planning by psychotics destroys agricultural production.

At 5/1/2013 8:59:56 PM, Wallstreetatheist wrote:
At 5/1/2013 8:58:37 PM, Citrakayah wrote:
Perhaps he's jumped the shark?

Are you f*cking retarded? I posted the link where I found this post.

You posted it, without so much as a peep of 'While this raises some good points, I find that it is questionable in these ways: <insert stuff here>'. No critical thinking, just mindless repetition.

So yes, when you substitute posting links and quoting things that are themselves fallacious for actual critical thinking, I conclude that you, who somehow managed to be respected at one point, have jumped the shark.
Wallstreetatheist
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5/1/2013 10:06:20 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 5/1/2013 9:36:20 PM, Citrakayah wrote:
At 5/1/2013 8:58:57 PM, Wallstreetatheist wrote:
At 5/1/2013 8:50:53 PM, Noumena wrote:
The lack of causation-reasoning is too strong to look past here. As if central planning CAUSED people to eat each other rather than a host of connecting factors.

Central planning destroys agriculture production. Without enough food, people are drawn to desperate measures to sustain themselves such as cannibalism. Comprende?

No, central planning by psychotics destroys agricultural production.

That is an incredibly incompetent statement to make in light of history, and betrays a lack of historical knowledge on your part. Furthermore, it doesn't matter what psychological evaluation you deem a certain people to possess. If they don't have a price system, they encounter the coordination and calculation problems.
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Wallstreetatheist
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5/1/2013 10:12:49 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 5/1/2013 9:28:38 PM, Noumena wrote:
Yer over-simplifying the causal nature of the action though. Seriously it's not as if the places described above were extremely prosperous before the advent of their state-socialist systems. Not to say of course that state-socialism is optimal. Yer just being extremely simplistic here.

I posted an article about cannibalism under communism. I'm sorry if you mistook this as communism -> cannibalism. I'm not sure why you're so focused on this point, as you assume that is what he is arguing for, when in actuality he just posted incidents of cannibalism under communism. You mistakenly assume that he is making a weak inductive argument, but that is merely incidental.

You know why central planning fails; I know why central planning fails; history, economics, and statistics all demonstrate the fact that central planning fails. If you want to debate agriculture under central planning, we can do that.

It's not my job to construct lengthy, academic arguments for something you think an author was hinting at.
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FREEDO
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5/2/2013 3:09:14 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
Nice try. Criticizing Communism while clearly propagating a Communist agenda. I have the god given right to freely exchange human meat on the free market. Why are you trying to rob me of my livelihood? Suuuure, the costumers don't know it's human. But there's no need to invade my property with inspectors when, you know, word gets around...or something. That's how it works. Bad business goes under. And human happens to taste just like pork, so I'm safe.
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Zetsubou
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5/2/2013 5:38:17 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
I want to stress that state planning isn't homogeneous, at lot of what has been listed can be attributed to a school of thought within the world of command economy known as Lysenkoism. Lysenkoist method was founded on pseudo-scientific agricultural science; its universal application as unquestionable dogma in the early years of the second world lead to a very toxic form of state planning /Communism. Any well meaning scientists who didn't subscribe to the junk would lose their place in the communist scientific world.

To give to a practical example, see animal husbandry and the use of genetic to bring about more productive (technically efficient if you do macro) livestock and crop. "Bourgeois fascist pseudoscience!" they called it. Let us reject elementary biology, Mendelian inheritance, and rely on a butchered interpretation of Lamarckist inheritance. On top of inefficient communist economics they pushed back Russia's agricultural development by a century.

There's also the role of war/rebellion during the Holodomor in Ukraine. It wasn't a product of communist nearly as much as it was a product of a scorched earth warfare which was used by both sides to starve out communities of dissenting politics.

Similar events, political situation, environmental crisis and the state of war, can explain the Chinese Great Famine (the last use of Lamarckism in the world) and the polices of the Khmer Rouge which in also lead to instances cannibalism.
[I can elaborate/debate these in more detail if anyone thinks these were the direct products of state planned economy]

I want to reiterate that Communism is inherently inferior to free market liberalism but would like to remind us to be free of ideological prejudice as not all of the left's failings are due to their economic conceits. State Planning can and has worked to feed, educate and develop millions, it doesn't work nearly as well as the free market capitalism could.

You need more than a great knowledge of the economics to explain in it's entirety the human tragedy that was communism.
'sup DDO -- july 2013
Citrakayah
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5/2/2013 7:59:33 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 5/1/2013 10:06:20 PM, Wallstreetatheist wrote:
At 5/1/2013 9:36:20 PM, Citrakayah wrote:
At 5/1/2013 8:58:57 PM, Wallstreetatheist wrote:
At 5/1/2013 8:50:53 PM, Noumena wrote:
The lack of causation-reasoning is too strong to look past here. As if central planning CAUSED people to eat each other rather than a host of connecting factors.

Central planning destroys agriculture production. Without enough food, people are drawn to desperate measures to sustain themselves such as cannibalism. Comprende?

No, central planning by psychotics destroys agricultural production.

That is an incredibly incompetent statement to make in light of history, and betrays a lack of historical knowledge on your part. Furthermore, it doesn't matter what psychological evaluation you deem a certain people to possess. If they don't have a price system, they encounter the coordination and calculation problems.

Do you really want to argue that Mao, Stalin, and the leaders of North Korea are rational beings? I'll granted that I'm using the term in a colloquial rather than medical fashion, but Stalin was a paranoid lunatic (http://www.pbs.org...).

And Jamestown--IIRC, the person who is usually credited with rescuing the colony forced people to work or they wouldn't get rations from the central stores, and he also instituted an absolutely vicious system of 'justice'.
Zetsubou
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5/2/2013 8:29:08 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
Corrections
see animal husbandry and the use of genetics to bring about more productive
It wasn't a product of communism nearly as much
of the Khmer Rouge which also lead to instances of cannibalism
it just doesn't work nearly as well as free market capitalism could.

----------------------
And to those few think Communist and 20th Central State Planning are practically distinct are naive. Archaist communes and state-independent forms of communism cannot exist stably in peace time, they cannot enforce the communist ideology because:
a) communism requires total control over the private economy and the means of production - because economies are people, it requires authoritarianism/the state to coerce the people who don't want to give up their jobs, investments and possessions.
b) they're anarchist and have no mandate to confiscate the private property of their peers. They can only operate on volunteer/opt-in support which is never enough for a 21st Century post-industrial civilization.
'sup DDO -- july 2013
suttichart.denpruektham
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5/2/2013 1:26:44 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 5/2/2013 7:59:33 AM, Citrakayah wrote:
At 5/1/2013 10:06:20 PM, Wallstreetatheist wrote:
At 5/1/2013 9:36:20 PM, Citrakayah wrote:
At 5/1/2013 8:58:57 PM, Wallstreetatheist wrote:
At 5/1/2013 8:50:53 PM, Noumena wrote:
The lack of causation-reasoning is too strong to look past here. As if central planning CAUSED people to eat each other rather than a host of connecting factors.

Central planning destroys agriculture production. Without enough food, people are drawn to desperate measures to sustain themselves such as cannibalism. Comprende?

No, central planning by psychotics destroys agricultural production.

That is an incredibly incompetent statement to make in light of history, and betrays a lack of historical knowledge on your part. Furthermore, it doesn't matter what psychological evaluation you deem a certain people to possess. If they don't have a price system, they encounter the coordination and calculation problems.

Do you really want to argue that Mao, Stalin, and the leaders of North Korea are rational beings? I'll granted that I'm using the term in a colloquial rather than medical fashion, but Stalin was a paranoid lunatic (http://www.pbs.org...).

And Jamestown--IIRC, the person who is usually credited with rescuing the colony forced people to work or they wouldn't get rations from the central stores, and he also instituted an absolutely vicious system of 'justice'.

It is communism that allow those crazies in power, they won't last even a year in democratic, capitalist nation. And by all mean, communist can't exist without some form of absolute authority because otherwise how can you make collective own of property? Even dictatorship by proletariat is a form of dictatorship and like all of it form, it produced incapable leader.

So Communist = poor leadership = economic failure = famine = cannibalism

I am not surprise to see a relationship.
Citrakayah
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5/2/2013 4:00:22 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 5/2/2013 1:26:44 PM, suttichart.denpruektham wrote:
It is communism that allow those crazies in power, they won't last even a year in democratic, capitalist nation. And by all mean, communist can't exist without some form of absolute authority because otherwise how can you make collective own of property? Even dictatorship by proletariat is a form of dictatorship and like all of it form, it produced incapable leader.

So Communist = poor leadership = economic failure = famine = cannibalism

I am not surprise to see a relationship.

The collective already owns property in the democratic nation of the United States of America. It's called public parks. Socialism is just extending that to include the means of production, so for instance the government would control the mines. But for it to be communism or socialism, the public has to control the mines, which means that either the public has to control the government or there can be no government.

Therefore, one arrives at the conclusion that Stalin was not a communist, he was a Communist--note the capital C.
Wallstreetatheist
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5/2/2013 6:40:55 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
Citrakayah, has there been a substantially centrally planned society that was effective at food production, protecting civil rights, had a population with long life expectancy and a high standard of living, etc?
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Wallstreetatheist
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5/2/2013 10:43:11 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
The point I was trying to make with this thread is that if you own a copy of Das Kapital, you'll probably eat your family tonight.
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Citrakayah
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5/3/2013 8:31:10 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 5/2/2013 6:40:55 PM, Wallstreetatheist wrote:
Citrakayah, has there been a substantially centrally planned society that was effective at food production, protecting civil rights, had a population with long life expectancy and a high standard of living, etc?

Sweden. Most Nordic countries, really. Climate's not great for agriculture, but fishing is significant. The existence of the Apoteket monopoly, for instance, while it has recently been lifted, along with these (http://en.wikipedia.org...), makes Sweden substantially centrally planned.