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Is Torture for Terrorists ever justified?

thefirstboss
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5/9/2013 12:17:23 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
Torture, is an ongoing debate topic in America. Should we be allowed to torture terrorists, who killed us in 9'11 did the Boston bombing and the pentagon? To get information of much value about these attacks? Or on the other hand what they say is not always accurate and you don't always know who your torturing and you only know if the information is right when the event actually happiness. What do you think? Please leave your opinion!
The darkest times in our life help us to see light,
and you never know what you have until its gone
Cherish those moments in life, chances are there will not be another like
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lannan13
Posts: 23,021
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5/9/2013 12:28:12 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
Of course torture for terrorists are justified! You get information from that scum and you save valued innocent American lives.
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Korashk
Posts: 4,597
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5/9/2013 1:06:03 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 5/9/2013 12:28:12 PM, lannan13 wrote:
Of course torture for terrorists are justified! You get information from that scum and you save valued innocent American lives.

http://cdn.memegenerator.net...

Torture is a method of dubious effectiveness and one that clearly violates international law, treaties, and the bill of rights.
When large numbers of otherwise-law abiding people break specific laws en masse, it's usually a fault that lies with the law. - Unknown
lewis20
Posts: 5,093
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5/9/2013 1:16:12 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
And sometimes, we should just torture for the shear fun of it.
https://www.google.com...
Always remember, they hate us because we are free.
"If you are a racist I will attack you with the north"- Abraham Lincoln

"Do not wear clothing woven of two kinds of material" - Leviticus 19 19

"War is a racket" - Smedley Butler
Eitan_Zohar
Posts: 2,697
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5/9/2013 1:26:56 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 5/9/2013 1:06:03 PM, Korashk wrote:
At 5/9/2013 12:28:12 PM, lannan13 wrote:
Of course torture for terrorists are justified! You get information from that scum and you save valued innocent American lives.

http://cdn.memegenerator.net...

Torture is a method of dubious effectiveness and one that clearly violates international law, treaties, and the bill of rights.

Why should I care about the bolded?
"It is my ambition to say in ten sentences what others say in a whole book."
thefirstboss
Posts: 13
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5/9/2013 1:33:14 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 5/9/2013 1:16:12 PM, lewis20 wrote:
And sometimes, we should just torture for the shear fun of it.
https://www.google.com...
Always remember, they hate us because we are free.
There was no reason for that post. I made this topic to generate opinions not create a grusome scene. Please refrain from those types of replies. How do you justify that the information you get from them is true? You never know someone's mental state and how they reply. Consider that.
The darkest times in our life help us to see light,
and you never know what you have until its gone
Cherish those moments in life, chances are there will not be another like
it
lewis20
Posts: 5,093
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5/9/2013 1:33:27 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 5/9/2013 1:26:56 PM, Eitan_Zohar wrote:
At 5/9/2013 1:06:03 PM, Korashk wrote:
At 5/9/2013 12:28:12 PM, lannan13 wrote:
Of course torture for terrorists are justified! You get information from that scum and you save valued innocent American lives.

http://cdn.memegenerator.net...

Torture is a method of dubious effectiveness and one that clearly violates international law, treaties, and the bill of rights.

Why should I care about the bolded?

Unless you're an anarchist the Constitution is pretty important.
"If you are a racist I will attack you with the north"- Abraham Lincoln

"Do not wear clothing woven of two kinds of material" - Leviticus 19 19

"War is a racket" - Smedley Butler
lewis20
Posts: 5,093
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5/9/2013 1:36:54 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 5/9/2013 1:33:14 PM, thefirstboss wrote:
At 5/9/2013 1:16:12 PM, lewis20 wrote:
And sometimes, we should just torture for the shear fun of it.
https://www.google.com...
Always remember, they hate us because we are free.
There was no reason for that post. I made this topic to generate opinions not create a grusome scene. Please refrain from those types of replies. How do you justify that the information you get from them is true? You never know someone's mental state and how they reply. Consider that.

Haha oh sorry you're right, we shouldn't put a face on torture or even provide context by showing pictures of actual US committed torture.

Everyone please disregard my post, remember torture is an abstract idea it's bad in the generic sense of the word, don't think about it any further than that. Carry on.
"If you are a racist I will attack you with the north"- Abraham Lincoln

"Do not wear clothing woven of two kinds of material" - Leviticus 19 19

"War is a racket" - Smedley Butler
thefirstboss
Posts: 13
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5/9/2013 1:38:48 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
I believe I just said dont add opinions about how you like to give people tourture just for the fun of it.
/warned
@thefirstboss
The darkest times in our life help us to see light,
and you never know what you have until its gone
Cherish those moments in life, chances are there will not be another like
it
thefirstboss
Posts: 13
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5/9/2013 1:43:38 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
Thank you for your cooperation! I do realize this can be a grusome debate but as you can see I want this debate to be a debate and friendly to everyone. Thanks!
The darkest times in our life help us to see light,
and you never know what you have until its gone
Cherish those moments in life, chances are there will not be another like
it
darkkermit
Posts: 11,204
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5/9/2013 1:51:30 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
Well considering that war consists of bombing civilians and children, I don't see how torturing is any worse. I'd rather have terrorists tortured than children bombed.
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Pennington
Posts: 1,286
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5/9/2013 1:56:25 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 5/9/2013 12:17:23 PM, thefirstboss wrote:
Torture, is an ongoing debate topic in America. Should we be allowed to torture terrorists, who killed us in 9'11 did the Boston bombing and the pentagon? To get information of much value about these attacks? Or on the other hand what they say is not always accurate and you don't always know who your torturing and you only know if the information is right when the event actually happiness. What do you think? Please leave your opinion!

Who are the terrorist? Muslims, Islam? I doubt it. Bin Laden worked for the CIA and his Al queda was trained by the CIA.
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ConservativeAmerican
Posts: 1,676
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5/9/2013 2:20:02 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 5/9/2013 12:17:23 PM, thefirstboss wrote:
Torture, is an ongoing debate topic in America. Should we be allowed to torture terrorists, who killed us in 9'11 did the Boston bombing and the pentagon? To get information of much value about these attacks? Or on the other hand what they say is not always accurate and you don't always know who your torturing and you only know if the information is right when the event actually happiness. What do you think? Please leave your opinion!

We should not torture suspects, we should only torture people who have without a doubt committed terrorist acts, and we would only do the minimal amount of torture needed to extract information.
Noumena
Posts: 6,047
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5/9/2013 2:26:24 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 5/9/2013 2:20:02 PM, ConservativeAmerican wrote:
At 5/9/2013 12:17:23 PM, thefirstboss wrote:
Torture, is an ongoing debate topic in America. Should we be allowed to torture terrorists, who killed us in 9'11 did the Boston bombing and the pentagon? To get information of much value about these attacks? Or on the other hand what they say is not always accurate and you don't always know who your torturing and you only know if the information is right when the event actually happiness. What do you think? Please leave your opinion!

We should not torture suspects, we should only torture people who have without a doubt committed terrorist acts, and we would only do the minimal amount of torture needed to extract information.

What do you think about the epistemic limitations of such methods?
: At 5/13/2014 7:05:20 PM, Crescendo wrote:
: The difference is that the gay movement is currently pushing their will on Churches, as shown in the link to gay marriage in Denmark. Meanwhile, the Inquisition ended several centuries ago.
Talib.ul-Ilm
Posts: 203
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5/9/2013 2:30:22 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
First off, Islam doesn't condone the intentional killing of women, children, elderly and people in cloisters.

But I do agree that the terrorists should be tortured under specific circumstances. People say that it never works, but that's absolutely wrong. It does work. It only doesn't work when you don't know for sure the person is guilty or has the knowledge, or if you're not willing to confirm the information.

Say one of the heretics from al-Qaeda plants a bomb in a mall, he is caught on his way out and he arrogantly confesses to the planting of the bomb. The police are in an excellent position to confirm whatever he tells us, by just going to the spot he placed it. So by making him scream in agony for a good hour, we could find the bomb easily.

But when you simply suspect someone of terrorism, and you torture them for information, they very well may not be involved in it, and would tell you anything to make the pain stop.

So if the suspect is confirmed to be involved, and you can confirm what he is saying is true safely, then there is nothing wrong with it. But mere conjecture that a person is involved in terrorist activities, and torturing that person based off of that, this will get you nowhere.
ConservativeAmerican
Posts: 1,676
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5/9/2013 2:31:54 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 5/9/2013 2:26:24 PM, Noumena wrote:
At 5/9/2013 2:20:02 PM, ConservativeAmerican wrote:
At 5/9/2013 12:17:23 PM, thefirstboss wrote:
Torture, is an ongoing debate topic in America. Should we be allowed to torture terrorists, who killed us in 9'11 did the Boston bombing and the pentagon? To get information of much value about these attacks? Or on the other hand what they say is not always accurate and you don't always know who your torturing and you only know if the information is right when the event actually happiness. What do you think? Please leave your opinion!

We should not torture suspects, we should only torture people who have without a doubt committed terrorist acts, and we would only do the minimal amount of torture needed to extract information.

What do you think about the epistemic limitations of such methods?

The way you used epistemic in this sentence confused me slightly. Would you mind rephrasing it?

i.e I am not sure if you are referring to our limitation of the knowledge on the psychology of a terrorist, or the possibility that the terrorist does not have the knowledge that we are trying to seek out. etc
ConservativeAmerican
Posts: 1,676
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5/9/2013 2:33:42 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 5/9/2013 2:30:22 PM, Talib.ul-Ilm wrote:
First off, Islam doesn't condone the intentional killing of women, children, elderly and people in cloisters.

But I do agree that the terrorists should be tortured under specific circumstances. People say that it never works, but that's absolutely wrong. It does work. It only doesn't work when you don't know for sure the person is guilty or has the knowledge, or if you're not willing to confirm the information.

Agreed

Say one of the heretics from al-Qaeda plants a bomb in a mall, he is caught on his way out and he arrogantly confesses to the planting of the bomb. The police are in an excellent position to confirm whatever he tells us, by just going to the spot he placed it. So by making him scream in agony for a good hour, we could find the bomb easily.

Possibly, if he is that adamant about his 'cause', maybe not.

But when you simply suspect someone of terrorism, and you torture them for information, they very well may not be involved in it, and would tell you anything to make the pain stop.

Agreed.

So if the suspect is confirmed to be involved, and you can confirm what he is saying is true safely, then there is nothing wrong with it. But mere conjecture that a person is involved in terrorist activities, and torturing that person based off of that, this will get you nowhere.

Agreed.
lewis20
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5/9/2013 3:18:02 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 5/9/2013 1:51:30 PM, darkkermit wrote:
Well considering that war consists of bombing civilians and children, I don't see how torturing is any worse. I'd rather have terrorists tortured than children bombed.

That's true, seemed like a lot of people were up in arms because a handful of suspected terrorists were waterboarded, yet thousands of innocent people are dying all the time and it doesn't seem to draw the same criticism.
"If you are a racist I will attack you with the north"- Abraham Lincoln

"Do not wear clothing woven of two kinds of material" - Leviticus 19 19

"War is a racket" - Smedley Butler
Talib.ul-Ilm
Posts: 203
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5/9/2013 4:01:35 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 5/9/2013 3:55:57 PM, drafterman wrote:
It isn't justified to use unnecessary measures.

If you're a heretic and you planted a bomb in my child's school, I will strap you to a table, take a razor blade and a can of salt and make tiny but painful little slices all over your body, rubbing salt into the wounds right after, each time, until you're psychotic or tell me where it is and how to disarm it.
thefirstboss
Posts: 13
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5/9/2013 4:07:04 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
Torture is never justified. You never know someones mental state especially terrorists.There have been documaented cases where people confessing to things innocents and it wasnt true just to stop the tourture and terrorists saying false or misleading information. Mentally stable and unstable people. What if someone is currently threatening them to not tell? what if the information is not correct? You only find these events out after the attack has actually happened. What if the terrorist is trying to mislead you? There are just to many what ifs and the tourture meathods are not very humane. In America this is not what we are founded on. Also the tourtre will definatly get other countries mad like iran or Afganistan. Sure they tourture us but when they try to get allies agenst us that is major leverage and a convincing point. This also puts up a major point of vulnerability. If the person is not actually a terrorist the tourture would be for no reason and going nowhere.This can also lead to a person who is tourtureing to say "well i didnt know he wasnt a terrorist" or "i did it just to be sure" or "i was unaware that that was unhumane" or "i didnt mean to kill him". This is what could soon happen if we legalize this too many mistakes or mabye not mistakes it opens up a whole new dorway for crime. This is also a vialation to the amendmants in the consititution.We also did not find the members of al kida by tourture we located thme with satilites and other technolagy. There are always other ways. Our country was not founded on this it will bring down the meaning of our country drasticly dont make tourture a part of our life.
The darkest times in our life help us to see light,
and you never know what you have until its gone
Cherish those moments in life, chances are there will not be another like
it
thefirstboss
Posts: 13
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5/9/2013 4:08:24 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 5/9/2013 4:01:35 PM, Talib.ul-Ilm wrote:
At 5/9/2013 3:55:57 PM, drafterman wrote:
It isn't justified to use unnecessary measures.

If you're a heretic and you planted a bomb in my child's school, I will strap you to a table, take a razor blade and a can of salt and make tiny but painful little slices all over your body, rubbing salt into the wounds right after, each time, until you're psychotic or tell me where it is and how to disarm it.
I dont need to know what you will do just why and that was grusome and no need to share that
/warned
@thefirstboss
The darkest times in our life help us to see light,
and you never know what you have until its gone
Cherish those moments in life, chances are there will not be another like
it
drafterman
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5/9/2013 4:09:30 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 5/9/2013 4:01:35 PM, Talib.ul-Ilm wrote:
At 5/9/2013 3:55:57 PM, drafterman wrote:
It isn't justified to use unnecessary measures.

If you're a heretic and you planted a bomb in my child's school, I will strap you to a table, take a razor blade and a can of salt and make tiny but painful little slices all over your body, rubbing salt into the wounds right after, each time, until you're psychotic or tell me where it is and how to disarm it.

Cool. Now you've made me a martyr and your child is dead.

Win-win?
Talib.ul-Ilm
Posts: 203
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5/9/2013 4:18:55 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
Actually there are only one of two outcomes. Either the location is revealed, or it is not. If you didn't torture the terrorist, you have no chance of figuring out where the bomb is at. If you do torture the terrorist, you have a chance of figuring out where the bomb is at.

So yeah. Which would you honestly choose? No chance or small chance?
lewis20
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5/9/2013 4:27:33 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 5/9/2013 4:18:55 PM, Talib.ul-Ilm wrote:
Actually there are only one of two outcomes. Either the location is revealed, or it is not. If you didn't torture the terrorist, you have no chance of figuring out where the bomb is at. If you do torture the terrorist, you have a chance of figuring out where the bomb is at.

So yeah. Which would you honestly choose? No chance or small chance?

Or there's no location and you tortured someone for no reason.
"If you are a racist I will attack you with the north"- Abraham Lincoln

"Do not wear clothing woven of two kinds of material" - Leviticus 19 19

"War is a racket" - Smedley Butler
thefirstboss
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5/9/2013 4:33:39 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 5/9/2013 4:18:55 PM, Talib.ul-Ilm wrote:
Actually there are only one of two outcomes. Either the location is revealed, or it is not. If you didn't torture the terrorist, you have no chance of figuring out where the bomb is at. If you do torture the terrorist, you have a chance of figuring out where the bomb is at.

So yeah. Which would you honestly choose? No chance or small chance?
Actually you never know if that information is correct using the bomb example how do you know that he is not leading you to your death instead of telling how to disarm the bomb. Also if you say give him a death threat? Well first of all that will not be legal second of all even if it was you never know a persons mental state. Even if they are mentally stable you never know a persons intentions and what if they intend to get caught and were trained to take on torture and lie. You never know and there are always too many what ifs the probability shows that it is more likely to be wrong then right. After all they are terrorists.
(by the way i may sound like a democrat but i am a strong republican)
/debate
@thefirstboss
The darkest times in our life help us to see light,
and you never know what you have until its gone
Cherish those moments in life, chances are there will not be another like
it
thefirstboss
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5/9/2013 4:43:49 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 5/9/2013 1:51:30 PM, darkkermit wrote:
Well considering that war consists of bombing civilians and children, I don't see how torturing is any worse. I'd rather have terrorists tortured than children bombed.
There would be many angered people from this we would loose respect and allies. Also you never know if what they say is correct. Not even close to all of the wars are because of terrorism. Terrorists usually belong to small groups much like gangs and they are not the federal government of their country but it is possible that they can take control of their country's government. This will not solve wars. How does this make us better then the terrorists? We were not founded on this.
/debate
@thefirstboss
The darkest times in our life help us to see light,
and you never know what you have until its gone
Cherish those moments in life, chances are there will not be another like
it
drafterman
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5/9/2013 4:47:39 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 5/9/2013 4:18:55 PM, Talib.ul-Ilm wrote:
Actually there are only one of two outcomes. Either the location is revealed, or it is not. If you didn't torture the terrorist, you have no chance of figuring out where the bomb is at. If you do torture the terrorist, you have a chance of figuring out where the bomb is at.

So yeah. Which would you honestly choose? No chance or small chance?

Uhm.... how do you figure that there is no chance of figuring out the location of the bomb without torture?
thefirstboss
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5/9/2013 4:54:13 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 5/9/2013 4:47:39 PM, drafterman wrote:
At 5/9/2013 4:18:55 PM, Talib.ul-Ilm wrote:
Actually there are only one of two outcomes. Either the location is revealed, or it is not. If you didn't torture the terrorist, you have no chance of figuring out where the bomb is at. If you do torture the terrorist, you have a chance of figuring out where the bomb is at.

So yeah. Which would you honestly choose? No chance or small chance?

Uhm.... how do you figure that there is no chance of figuring out the location of the bomb without torture?
Yes be open minded they did not find the al quida group with torture they used satilites and al quidas own computer databases to find out his location
The darkest times in our life help us to see light,
and you never know what you have until its gone
Cherish those moments in life, chances are there will not be another like
it
thefirstboss
Posts: 13
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5/9/2013 4:59:42 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
[More Debate Guidelines]
Ask yourself what is the value of doing either what is the outcome? why is doing one better then the other
Please reply and tell us your opinion we want to hear it (make it not gruesome please it is easy to make it gruesome with this debate keep to the debate and not the horrible stuff that happens to people when tortured)
/Guidelines
@thefirstboss
The darkest times in our life help us to see light,
and you never know what you have until its gone
Cherish those moments in life, chances are there will not be another like
it