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Where I disagree with Chomsky

ConservativeAmerican
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5/9/2013 4:48:24 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
Well, except that I'm capitalist too, but anywho, I still believe that antisemitism is prevalent, and not the majority, but a large group of people who claim they are only against Israel and not the Jews, are also against the Jews.

Here is just a fairly recent article and report from the Anti-Defamation league to back my claims.

http://www.breitbart.com...

http://archive.adl.org...

Criticisms, comments, etc?
lewis20
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5/9/2013 4:57:30 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
The Anti-Defamation league thinks antisemitism is a larger deal than it really is? Say it ain't so.
A survey of 1000 people in 2002 by the prestigious Marttila Communications Group can't be wrong.
"If you are a racist I will attack you with the north"- Abraham Lincoln

"Do not wear clothing woven of two kinds of material" - Leviticus 19 19

"War is a racket" - Smedley Butler
lewis20
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5/9/2013 5:03:33 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
What do you think antisemitism stems from?
"If you are a racist I will attack you with the north"- Abraham Lincoln

"Do not wear clothing woven of two kinds of material" - Leviticus 19 19

"War is a racket" - Smedley Butler
ConservativeAmerican
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5/9/2013 5:14:49 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 5/9/2013 4:57:30 PM, lewis20 wrote:
The Anti-Defamation league thinks antisemitism is a larger deal than it really is? Say it ain't so.
A survey of 1000 people in 2002 by the prestigious Marttila Communications Group can't be wrong.

Seeing as how their job is to primarily protect minorities from stereotypes and racism, their word inherently has more validity then yours alone.
ConservativeAmerican
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5/9/2013 5:15:20 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 5/9/2013 5:03:33 PM, lewis20 wrote:
What do you think antisemitism stems from?

All hatred stems from primarily poverty and ignorance, so don't claim it's the fault of the Jews please.
Wnope
Posts: 6,924
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5/9/2013 5:18:40 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 5/9/2013 4:48:24 PM, ConservativeAmerican wrote:
Well, except that I'm capitalist too, but anywho, I still believe that antisemitism is prevalent, and not the majority, but a large group of people who claim they are only against Israel and not the Jews, are also against the Jews.

Here is just a fairly recent article and report from the Anti-Defamation league to back my claims.

http://www.breitbart.com...

http://archive.adl.org...

Criticisms, comments, etc?

THAT'S where you disagree with Chomsky?

I was prepared for a treatise.
lewis20
Posts: 5,093
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5/9/2013 5:24:52 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 5/9/2013 5:14:49 PM, ConservativeAmerican wrote:
At 5/9/2013 4:57:30 PM, lewis20 wrote:
The Anti-Defamation league thinks antisemitism is a larger deal than it really is? Say it ain't so.
A survey of 1000 people in 2002 by the prestigious Marttila Communications Group can't be wrong.

Seeing as how their job is to primarily protect minorities from stereotypes and racism, their word inherently has more validity then yours alone.

Their having a vested interest in something makes their view more objective? and a single 1000 person poll in 2002 by a no name polling company valid?
Alright.
"If you are a racist I will attack you with the north"- Abraham Lincoln

"Do not wear clothing woven of two kinds of material" - Leviticus 19 19

"War is a racket" - Smedley Butler
lewis20
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5/9/2013 5:30:12 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 5/9/2013 5:15:20 PM, ConservativeAmerican wrote:
At 5/9/2013 5:03:33 PM, lewis20 wrote:
What do you think antisemitism stems from?

All hatred stems from primarily poverty and ignorance.

35% of African Americans and 35% of Hispanics hold antisemitic views stemming primarily from their poverty and ignorance.
"If you are a racist I will attack you with the north"- Abraham Lincoln

"Do not wear clothing woven of two kinds of material" - Leviticus 19 19

"War is a racket" - Smedley Butler
Citrakayah
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5/9/2013 5:31:48 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
Both are definitely anti-Semitism, but the ADL seems to have the causation reversed. Being less sympathetic to Israel, in all likelihood, doesn't cause anti-Semitism. It's the other way around.
Noumena
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5/9/2013 6:43:43 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
Anti-Semites are probs usually agains Israel but there's no reason to pigeon hole anti-Israel people as anti-Semites.
: At 5/13/2014 7:05:20 PM, Crescendo wrote:
: The difference is that the gay movement is currently pushing their will on Churches, as shown in the link to gay marriage in Denmark. Meanwhile, the Inquisition ended several centuries ago.
Eitan_Zohar
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5/9/2013 8:13:56 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 5/9/2013 6:43:43 PM, Noumena wrote:
Anti-Semites are probs usually agains Israel but there's no reason to pigeon hole anti-Israel people as anti-Semites.

No? Critics of the Israeli government obviously shouldn't be called anti-Semites, but what other state do you know that is marginalized and hated collectively? Even Norman Finkelstein admitted the goal of the BDS movement was to destroy Israel.
"It is my ambition to say in ten sentences what others say in a whole book."
ConservativeAmerican
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5/9/2013 8:20:26 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 5/9/2013 5:18:40 PM, Wnope wrote:
At 5/9/2013 4:48:24 PM, ConservativeAmerican wrote:
Well, except that I'm capitalist too, but anywho, I still believe that antisemitism is prevalent, and not the majority, but a large group of people who claim they are only against Israel and not the Jews, are also against the Jews.

Here is just a fairly recent article and report from the Anti-Defamation league to back my claims.

http://www.breitbart.com...

http://archive.adl.org...

Criticisms, comments, etc?

THAT'S where you disagree with Chomsky?

I was prepared for a treatise.

Well, he did basically deny that antisemitism exists today only by using circumstantial evidence. Do I agree it's not as bad as it was in Post WWII America? Yes, is it still a problem that exists, and needs to be faced? I think it is.
ConservativeAmerican
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5/9/2013 8:24:26 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 5/9/2013 5:24:52 PM, lewis20 wrote:
At 5/9/2013 5:14:49 PM, ConservativeAmerican wrote:
At 5/9/2013 4:57:30 PM, lewis20 wrote:
The Anti-Defamation league thinks antisemitism is a larger deal than it really is? Say it ain't so.
A survey of 1000 people in 2002 by the prestigious Marttila Communications Group can't be wrong.

Seeing as how their job is to primarily protect minorities from stereotypes and racism, their word inherently has more validity then yours alone.

Their having a vested interest in something makes their view more objective? and a single 1000 person poll in 2002 by a no name polling company valid?
Alright.

To start, I would not say they are fully objective, but their goal after all is to protect minorities, the representatives who make statements in the media/press and on their website are probably armed with a plethora of information. Also, I do not think a polling company being mainstream takes away from their validity, unless you can find out that the research was done in a primarily Jewish area, or conservative area (since Conservatives tend to defend jews/Israel more), you really don't even have a point. I don't get it, are you just criticizing my source, or do you have a bigger plot in mind to eventually get to criticizing my views on Israel and the Jews?
ConservativeAmerican
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5/9/2013 8:25:38 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 5/9/2013 5:30:12 PM, lewis20 wrote:
At 5/9/2013 5:15:20 PM, ConservativeAmerican wrote:
At 5/9/2013 5:03:33 PM, lewis20 wrote:
What do you think antisemitism stems from?

All hatred stems from primarily poverty and ignorance.

35% of African Americans and 35% of Hispanics hold antisemitic views stemming primarily from their poverty and ignorance.

You are right, unfortunately those two minority groups are statistically more impoverished and ignorant, so it's easy for them to blame the Jews.
ConservativeAmerican
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5/9/2013 8:30:03 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 5/9/2013 6:43:43 PM, Noumena wrote:
Anti-Semites are probs usually agains Israel but there's no reason to pigeon hole anti-Israel people as anti-Semites.

In America and Western Europe, usually people don't take every opportunity to jump on Israel, but they still criticize them, this isn't antisemitism. When you get to the more extremist Eastern European nations, the balkans and the middle east, we see Israel not as an object of logical criticism, but of hatred, this usually stems from not from the actions of Israel itself, but from Antisemitism.
Are there still the "Jewish Zionist run the banks and have a NWO" types in America/Western EU? Yes, not as prevalent as in the aforementioned areas though.
lewis20
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5/9/2013 8:31:12 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 5/9/2013 8:25:38 PM, ConservativeAmerican wrote:
At 5/9/2013 5:30:12 PM, lewis20 wrote:
At 5/9/2013 5:15:20 PM, ConservativeAmerican wrote:
At 5/9/2013 5:03:33 PM, lewis20 wrote:
What do you think antisemitism stems from?

All hatred stems from primarily poverty and ignorance.

35% of African Americans and 35% of Hispanics hold antisemitic views stemming primarily from their poverty and ignorance.

You are right, unfortunately those two minority groups are statistically more impoverished and ignorant, so it's easy for them to blame the Jews.

You honestly believe 35% ? one in three?
"If you are a racist I will attack you with the north"- Abraham Lincoln

"Do not wear clothing woven of two kinds of material" - Leviticus 19 19

"War is a racket" - Smedley Butler
ConservativeAmerican
Posts: 1,676
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5/9/2013 8:33:57 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 5/9/2013 8:31:12 PM, lewis20 wrote:
At 5/9/2013 8:25:38 PM, ConservativeAmerican wrote:
At 5/9/2013 5:30:12 PM, lewis20 wrote:
At 5/9/2013 5:15:20 PM, ConservativeAmerican wrote:
At 5/9/2013 5:03:33 PM, lewis20 wrote:
What do you think antisemitism stems from?

All hatred stems from primarily poverty and ignorance.

35% of African Americans and 35% of Hispanics hold antisemitic views stemming primarily from their poverty and ignorance.

You are right, unfortunately those two minority groups are statistically more impoverished and ignorant, so it's easy for them to blame the Jews.

You honestly believe 35% ? one in three?

ADL further explains it on this link.

http://archive.adl.org...
Citrakayah
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5/9/2013 9:11:22 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 5/9/2013 8:13:56 PM, Eitan_Zohar wrote:
At 5/9/2013 6:43:43 PM, Noumena wrote:
Anti-Semites are probs usually agains Israel but there's no reason to pigeon hole anti-Israel people as anti-Semites.

No? Critics of the Israeli government obviously shouldn't be called anti-Semites, but what other state do you know that is marginalized and hated collectively? Even Norman Finkelstein admitted the goal of the BDS movement was to destroy Israel.

The United States? France? A lot of countries in the Middle East?
Eitan_Zohar
Posts: 2,697
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5/9/2013 9:25:34 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 5/9/2013 9:11:22 PM, Citrakayah wrote:
At 5/9/2013 8:13:56 PM, Eitan_Zohar wrote:
At 5/9/2013 6:43:43 PM, Noumena wrote:
Anti-Semites are probs usually agains Israel but there's no reason to pigeon hole anti-Israel people as anti-Semites.

No? Critics of the Israeli government obviously shouldn't be called anti-Semites, but what other state do you know that is marginalized and hated collectively? Even Norman Finkelstein admitted the goal of the BDS movement was to destroy Israel.

The United States? France? A lot of countries in the Middle East?

Really? Where have there been calls for boycotts of US, French, or even Iranian academics? May I remind you that Alice Walker refused to let her book be translated into Hebrew? Does seem like protest against government policy to you?
"It is my ambition to say in ten sentences what others say in a whole book."
darkkermit
Posts: 11,204
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5/9/2013 9:52:23 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 5/9/2013 9:25:34 PM, Eitan_Zohar wrote:
At 5/9/2013 9:11:22 PM, Citrakayah wrote:
At 5/9/2013 8:13:56 PM, Eitan_Zohar wrote:
At 5/9/2013 6:43:43 PM, Noumena wrote:
Anti-Semites are probs usually agains Israel but there's no reason to pigeon hole anti-Israel people as anti-Semites.

No? Critics of the Israeli government obviously shouldn't be called anti-Semites, but what other state do you know that is marginalized and hated collectively? Even Norman Finkelstein admitted the goal of the BDS movement was to destroy Israel.

The United States? France? A lot of countries in the Middle East?

Really? Where have there been calls for boycotts of US, French, or even Iranian academics? May I remind you that Alice Walker refused to let her book be translated into Hebrew? Does seem like protest against government policy to you?

Boycotts ofwhat? Isreali-born professor Dan Ariely works at MIT.
Open borders debate:
http://www.debate.org...
Eitan_Zohar
Posts: 2,697
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5/9/2013 9:55:02 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 5/9/2013 9:52:23 PM, darkkermit wrote:
At 5/9/2013 9:25:34 PM, Eitan_Zohar wrote:
At 5/9/2013 9:11:22 PM, Citrakayah wrote:
At 5/9/2013 8:13:56 PM, Eitan_Zohar wrote:
At 5/9/2013 6:43:43 PM, Noumena wrote:
Anti-Semites are probs usually agains Israel but there's no reason to pigeon hole anti-Israel people as anti-Semites.

No? Critics of the Israeli government obviously shouldn't be called anti-Semites, but what other state do you know that is marginalized and hated collectively? Even Norman Finkelstein admitted the goal of the BDS movement was to destroy Israel.

The United States? France? A lot of countries in the Middle East?

Really? Where have there been calls for boycotts of US, French, or even Iranian academics? May I remind you that Alice Walker refused to let her book be translated into Hebrew? Does seem like protest against government policy to you?

Boycotts ofwhat? Isreali-born professor Dan Ariely works at MIT.

No, there have been calls for boycotts of Israel academics. As in, academics would be boycotted for being Israeli. Only the hardliners (BDS and stuff) actually want it.
"It is my ambition to say in ten sentences what others say in a whole book."
darkkermit
Posts: 11,204
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5/9/2013 10:45:42 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 5/9/2013 9:55:02 PM, Eitan_Zohar wrote:
At 5/9/2013 9:52:23 PM, darkkermit wrote:
At 5/9/2013 9:25:34 PM, Eitan_Zohar wrote:
At 5/9/2013 9:11:22 PM, Citrakayah wrote:
At 5/9/2013 8:13:56 PM, Eitan_Zohar wrote:
At 5/9/2013 6:43:43 PM, Noumena wrote:
Anti-Semites are probs usually agains Israel but there's no reason to pigeon hole anti-Israel people as anti-Semites.

No? Critics of the Israeli government obviously shouldn't be called anti-Semites, but what other state do you know that is marginalized and hated collectively? Even Norman Finkelstein admitted the goal of the BDS movement was to destroy Israel.

The United States? France? A lot of countries in the Middle East?

Really? Where have there been calls for boycotts of US, French, or even Iranian academics? May I remind you that Alice Walker refused to let her book be translated into Hebrew? Does seem like protest against government policy to you?

Boycotts ofwhat? Isreali-born professor Dan Ariely works at MIT.

No, there have been calls for boycotts of Israel academics. As in, academics would be boycotted for being Israeli. Only the hardliners (BDS and stuff) actually want it.

Like I said, this doesn't make sense since clearly Isrealis clearly enter the US to work at academia.
Open borders debate:
http://www.debate.org...
Eitan_Zohar
Posts: 2,697
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5/9/2013 11:26:22 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 5/9/2013 10:45:42 PM, darkkermit wrote:
At 5/9/2013 9:55:02 PM, Eitan_Zohar wrote:
At 5/9/2013 9:52:23 PM, darkkermit wrote:
At 5/9/2013 9:25:34 PM, Eitan_Zohar wrote:
At 5/9/2013 9:11:22 PM, Citrakayah wrote:
At 5/9/2013 8:13:56 PM, Eitan_Zohar wrote:
At 5/9/2013 6:43:43 PM, Noumena wrote:
Anti-Semites are probs usually agains Israel but there's no reason to pigeon hole anti-Israel people as anti-Semites.

No? Critics of the Israeli government obviously shouldn't be called anti-Semites, but what other state do you know that is marginalized and hated collectively? Even Norman Finkelstein admitted the goal of the BDS movement was to destroy Israel.

The United States? France? A lot of countries in the Middle East?

Really? Where have there been calls for boycotts of US, French, or even Iranian academics? May I remind you that Alice Walker refused to let her book be translated into Hebrew? Does seem like protest against government policy to you?

Boycotts ofwhat? Isreali-born professor Dan Ariely works at MIT.

No, there have been calls for boycotts of Israel academics. As in, academics would be boycotted for being Israeli. Only the hardliners (BDS and stuff) actually want it.

Like I said, this doesn't make sense since clearly Isrealis clearly enter the US to work at academia.

OK, you are going off on a completely different paradigm. This has nothing to do with the US or any other country. The boycott is from fringe academics and organizations that don't recognize Israel.
"It is my ambition to say in ten sentences what others say in a whole book."
Noumena
Posts: 6,047
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5/10/2013 11:30:48 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 5/9/2013 11:26:22 PM, Eitan_Zohar wrote:

OK, you are going off on a completely different paradigm. This has nothing to do with the US or any other country. The boycott is from fringe academics and organizations that don't recognize Israel.

The boycott isn't exactly fringe. Stephen Hawking recently joined in after all. Moreover, one shouldn't pigeonhole the point of the campaign. It's purpose is primarily against Israel's perceived role as an oppressive and discriminatory state relative to Palestinians. Among the parties to the boycott are Hawking (aforementioned), a number of Israeli academics (http://m.guardiannews.com...), Desmond Tutu, a number of actors/musicians (http://www.policymic.com...), and a host of renowned academics ranging from Hamid Dabashi to Miriam Shelinger. This form of boycott isn't new or unique to Israel either. Boycotts of a similar fashion were imposed against South Africa in response to its apartheid policies.
: At 5/13/2014 7:05:20 PM, Crescendo wrote:
: The difference is that the gay movement is currently pushing their will on Churches, as shown in the link to gay marriage in Denmark. Meanwhile, the Inquisition ended several centuries ago.
Citrakayah
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5/10/2013 11:36:14 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 5/9/2013 9:25:34 PM, Eitan_Zohar wrote:
At 5/9/2013 9:11:22 PM, Citrakayah wrote:
At 5/9/2013 8:13:56 PM, Eitan_Zohar wrote:
At 5/9/2013 6:43:43 PM, Noumena wrote:
Anti-Semites are probs usually agains Israel but there's no reason to pigeon hole anti-Israel people as anti-Semites.

No? Critics of the Israeli government obviously shouldn't be called anti-Semites, but what other state do you know that is marginalized and hated collectively? Even Norman Finkelstein admitted the goal of the BDS movement was to destroy Israel.

The United States? France? A lot of countries in the Middle East?

Really? Where have there been calls for boycotts of US, French, or even Iranian academics? May I remind you that Alice Walker refused to let her book be translated into Hebrew? Does seem like protest against government policy to you?

The Israeli academic boycotts are based on the precedent of academic boycotts of South Africa during the apartheid era. While I'm sure you disagree with the analogy, it has been used by prominent members of the Israeli government and prominent Israeli groups, so arguing that it's innately anti-Semetic is questionable (http://en.wikipedia.org...).

It's rather ironic. You see more criticism of Israel in Israel than you do in political circles around here.
Eitan_Zohar
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5/10/2013 12:53:46 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 5/10/2013 11:30:48 AM, Noumena wrote:
At 5/9/2013 11:26:22 PM, Eitan_Zohar wrote:

OK, you are going off on a completely different paradigm. This has nothing to do with the US or any other country. The boycott is from fringe academics and organizations that don't recognize Israel.

The boycott isn't exactly fringe. Stephen Hawking recently joined in after all. Moreover, one shouldn't pigeonhole the point of the campaign. It's purpose is primarily against Israel's perceived role as an oppressive and discriminatory state relative to Palestinians. Among the parties to the boycott are Hawking (aforementioned), a number of Israeli academics (http://m.guardiannews.com...), Desmond Tutu, a number of actors/musicians (http://www.policymic.com...), and a host of renowned academics ranging from Hamid Dabashi to Miriam Shelinger. This form of boycott isn't new or unique to Israel either. Boycotts of a similar fashion were imposed against South Africa in response to its apartheid policies.

Well, it used to be fringe. A lot of Israelis are left-wingers (say, Ilan Pappe) and I do consider it to be a form of self-hatred given the consistently far-left ideologies the boycotters have. The entire nation of Israel is not responsible for whatever the government does to the Palestinians, and certainly the academics aren't.

And again, as I pointed out, the BDS movement simply wants Israel gone. You can't advocate four million Arabs, all of whom have never set foot in Israel, settle there without destroying Israel.
"It is my ambition to say in ten sentences what others say in a whole book."
Eitan_Zohar
Posts: 2,697
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5/10/2013 1:06:21 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 5/10/2013 11:36:14 AM, Citrakayah wrote:
At 5/9/2013 9:25:34 PM, Eitan_Zohar wrote:
At 5/9/2013 9:11:22 PM, Citrakayah wrote:
At 5/9/2013 8:13:56 PM, Eitan_Zohar wrote:
At 5/9/2013 6:43:43 PM, Noumena wrote:
Anti-Semites are probs usually agains Israel but there's no reason to pigeon hole anti-Israel people as anti-Semites.

No? Critics of the Israeli government obviously shouldn't be called anti-Semites, but what other state do you know that is marginalized and hated collectively? Even Norman Finkelstein admitted the goal of the BDS movement was to destroy Israel.

The United States? France? A lot of countries in the Middle East?

Really? Where have there been calls for boycotts of US, French, or even Iranian academics? May I remind you that Alice Walker refused to let her book be translated into Hebrew? Does seem like protest against government policy to you?

The Israeli academic boycotts are based on the precedent of academic boycotts of South Africa during the apartheid era. While I'm sure you disagree with the analogy, it has been used by prominent members of the Israeli government and prominent Israeli groups, so arguing that it's innately anti-Semetic is questionable (http://en.wikipedia.org...).

It's rather ironic. You see more criticism of Israel in Israel than you do in political circles around here.

Allow me to point out that boycotts of academics were not practiced against South Africa, they were practiced against academic institutions which discriminated racially. And also let me point out, having lived in Israel for two years, that I know quite a bit about the attitudes of Israelis. The section of Israelis using the term apartheid is quote-mined material ("bantustan model" does not apply some sort of inherent racism to the occupation). You might have missed the "criticism by South Africans and Arab citizens of Israel" part, too.
"It is my ambition to say in ten sentences what others say in a whole book."
Eitan_Zohar
Posts: 2,697
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5/10/2013 1:16:58 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
I like this one: "Irwin Cotler, a Jewish Canadian MP and anti-apartheid activist who was once a lawyer for Nelson Mandela said "The second manifestation [of anti-semitism] is the indictment of Israel as an apartheid state [which involves] more than the simple indictment of Israel as an apartheid state. It involves a call for dismantling Israel" He links this to other forms of delegitimization of the Jewish state by Palestinians, such as their attempt to deny any Jewish historical or religious links to the Holy Land as such, and especially to Jerusalem itself." -[http://en.wikipedia.org...]
"It is my ambition to say in ten sentences what others say in a whole book."