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ConservativeAmerican
Posts: 1,676
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5/14/2013 3:32:34 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
Why are the left so desperate to smear Ayn Rand?

After all, Rand is a centrist since she is fiscally conservative and socially liberal.

The left have made multiple campaigns to smear Rand, including flat out lying or distorting the truth when they say:

She was a hypocrite for collecting social security and medicare
She idolized a serial killer
She died penniless

Although it seems biased, I would really like to hear legitimate criticisms of Ayn Rand, and why the left seem to attack her more then other libertarian philisophers such as Noam Chomsky (still considered libertarian by most), Josiah Warren (the founder of the American anarchist movement), Frederic Bastiat (Creator of the concept of opportunity cost, very significant philosopher for libertarianism).

Is it possibly because Rand created a theory that is really objective and would not allow any side to oppress and impose their morals upon the other?
Mirza
Posts: 16,992
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5/14/2013 3:35:44 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 5/14/2013 3:32:34 PM, ConservativeAmerican wrote:
After all, Rand is a centrist since she is fiscally conservative and socially liberal.
Eh, no. She is on the southern part of right - libertarian. The x-axis on the compass is the economy.
drhead
Posts: 1,475
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5/14/2013 5:07:42 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
I'm fairly certain we all agree on the fact that Libertarians are a better alternative to Conservatives. It's only on economic issues that we disagree.
Wall of Fail

"You reject religion... calling it a sickness, to what ends??? Are you a Homosexual??" - Dogknox
"For me, Evolution is a zombie theory. I mean imaginary cartoons and wishful thinking support it?" - Dragonfang
"There are no mental health benefits of atheism. It is devoid of rational thinking and mental protection." - Gabrian
Skepsikyma
Posts: 8,286
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5/14/2013 5:48:38 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
Rand pushes buttons because she attacks altruism outright and uses terms in an unorthodox manner and rejecting a lot of popular ideas in many spheres. So misconceptions abound as a result. There are legitimate criticisms to be made, but most people who go after Rand do so without reading her or understanding her arguments clearly and base their arguments on hearsay. I think that they do this because some of her more vocal advocates have also, apparently, neither read nor understood Rand. Sadly clownish, uninformed supporters are the primary source of most of the popular misconceptions about objectivism.
"The Collectivist experiment is thoroughly suited (in appearance at least) to the Capitalist society which it proposes to replace. It works with the existing machinery of Capitalism, talks and thinks in the existing terms of Capitalism, appeals to just those appetites which Capitalism has aroused, and ridicules as fantastic and unheard-of just those things in society the memory of which Capitalism has killed among men wherever the blight of it has spread."
- Hilaire Belloc -
dylancatlow
Posts: 12,248
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5/14/2013 6:04:01 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
"After all, Rand is a centrist since she is fiscally conservative and socially liberal."

A centrist?! I see where you're getting that from, but that's NOT how that works. A centrist is someone who has middle-of-the-road views on BOTH social and economic issues.
dylancatlow
Posts: 12,248
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5/14/2013 6:26:00 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
"Although it seems biased, I would really like to hear legitimate criticisms of Ayn Rand"

As Skepsikyma has mentioned before, her stance on the treatment of the Native Americans was...questionable. Moreover, she disapproved of homosexuality and continued smoking after coming to the conclusion that the proposed health concerns were propaganda. She's far from perfect, but none of these flaws are deleterious to her philosophy's legitimacy.

"The same is true for a dictatorship. The citizens in it have individual rights, but the country has no rights and so anyone has the right to invade it, because rights are not recognized in that country; and no individual or country can have its cake and eat it too--that is, you can't claim one should respect the "rights" of Indians, when they had no concept of rights and no respect for rights. But let's suppose they were all beautifully innocent savages--which they certainly were not."

I find it quite ironic that she, someone from SOVIET RUSSIA, would hold responsible citizens for the country they are born into, and claim they do not have the right to life merely because that's the consensus among their countrymen.
dylancatlow
Posts: 12,248
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5/14/2013 6:30:47 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 5/14/2013 6:26:00 PM, dylancatlow wrote:
"Although it seems biased, I would really like to hear legitimate criticisms of Ayn Rand"

As Skepsikyma has mentioned before, her stance on the treatment of the Native Americans was...questionable. Moreover, she disapproved of homosexuality and continued smoking after coming to the conclusion that the proposed health concerns were propaganda. She's far from perfect, but none of these flaws are deleterious to her philosophy's legitimacy.

"The same is true for a dictatorship. The citizens in it have individual rights, but the country has no rights and so anyone has the right to invade it, because rights are not recognized in that country; and no individual or country can have its cake and eat it too--that is, you can't claim one should respect the "rights" of Indians, when they had no concept of rights and no respect for rights. But let's suppose they were all beautifully innocent savages--which they certainly were not."

I find it quite ironic that she, someone from SOVIET RUSSIA, would hold responsible citizens for the country they are born into, and claim they do not have the right to life merely because that's the consensus among their countrymen.

And no, I'm not just racking my mind for frivolous griefs to seem less of a zealot.
dylancatlow
Posts: 12,248
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5/14/2013 6:47:10 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
"Why are the left so desperate to smear Ayn Rand?"

Because she was an outspoken figure whose philosophy runs opposite to that of nearly everyone else - including liberals. I don't know why conservatives like her so much, though. Her philosophy takes a dump on them just the same.
Khaos_Mage
Posts: 23,214
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5/15/2013 1:58:30 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 5/14/2013 5:48:38 PM, Skepsikyma wrote:
Rand pushes buttons because she attacks altruism outright and uses terms in an unorthodox manner and rejecting a lot of popular ideas in many spheres. So misconceptions abound as a result. There are legitimate criticisms to be made, but most people who go after Rand do so without reading her or understanding her arguments clearly and base their arguments on hearsay. I think that they do this because some of her more vocal advocates have also, apparently, neither read nor understood Rand. Sadly clownish, uninformed supporters are the primary source of most of the popular misconceptions about objectivism.

About anything.
Need proof, just go to any rally you approve of and challenge them, and weep at how they fail to counter you.
My work here is, finally, done.
Khaos_Mage
Posts: 23,214
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5/15/2013 2:04:50 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 5/14/2013 3:32:34 PM, ConservativeAmerican wrote:
Why are the left so desperate to smear Ayn Rand?

After all, Rand is a centrist since she is fiscally conservative and socially liberal.
She opposed social security, welfare, and basically said that those who have no utility are undeserving of love.

The left have made multiple campaigns to smear Rand, including flat out lying or distorting the truth when they say:

She was a hypocrite for collecting social security and medicare
How is this a lie or distortion? She opposed them, and collected them. It is a strawman, it is irrelevant, but it is neither a lie nor distortion.
She idolized a serial killer
She was fascinated by him and used him, in a way, as a poster child for objectivism. It turned people off.
She died penniless
Never heard this, and it would be irrelevant.

Although it seems biased, I would really like to hear legitimate criticisms of Ayn Rand, and why the left seem to attack her more then other libertarian philisophers such as Noam Chomsky (still considered libertarian by most), Josiah Warren (the founder of the American anarchist movement), Frederic Bastiat (Creator of the concept of opportunity cost, very significant philosopher for libertarianism).

Is it possibly because Rand created a theory that is really objective and would not allow any side to oppress and impose their morals upon the other?

1. She attacked religion.
2. She attacked the notion of altrusim.
3. She calls people worthless and undeserving of love or compassion.

These are valid criticisms, and frankly, stand up under scrutiny, only if you are intellectually objective and think about it. This is too hard to do for most people...
My work here is, finally, done.
jimtimmy2
Posts: 403
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5/15/2013 2:14:33 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 5/14/2013 5:07:42 PM, drhead wrote:
I'm fairly certain we all agree on the fact that Libertarians are a better alternative to Conservatives. It's only on economic issues that we disagree.

I wouldn't call it a disagreement. Statists of all stripes simply don't understand or are dishonest about economic matters.

Reality is extremely one sided in favoring libertarian ideas.
ConservativeAmerican
Posts: 1,676
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5/15/2013 2:12:16 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 5/15/2013 2:04:50 AM, Khaos_Mage wrote:
At 5/14/2013 3:32:34 PM, ConservativeAmerican wrote:
Why are the left so desperate to smear Ayn Rand?

After all, Rand is a centrist since she is fiscally conservative and socially liberal.
She opposed social security, welfare, and basically said that those who have no utility are undeserving of love.

The left have made multiple campaigns to smear Rand, including flat out lying or distorting the truth when they say:

She was a hypocrite for collecting social security and medicare
How is this a lie or distortion? She opposed them, and collected them. It is a strawman, it is irrelevant, but it is neither a lie nor distortion.

It is a distortion, because she said herself (before she collected social security) that it would be immoral to not collect from the system that you put in to because it would allow the government to use your money to drive the welfare state. So while she opposed social security, she did not oppose collecting your own money back from the system.

She idolized a serial killer
She was fascinated by him and used him, in a way, as a poster child for objectivism. It turned people off.

I could be fascinated with the tactics of Erich Von Manstein, Robert E. Lee, or the soviets who were all morally questionable, but that doesn't mean I like Lee or Manstein as people or the Soviet Elite. i.e You can take something away from nearly everyone, even if you take one thing away and the rest is undesirable.

She died penniless
Never heard this, and it would be irrelevant.

I agree that it's irrelevant.

Although it seems biased, I would really like to hear legitimate criticisms of Ayn Rand, and why the left seem to attack her more then other libertarian philisophers such as Noam Chomsky (still considered libertarian by most), Josiah Warren (the founder of the American anarchist movement), Frederic Bastiat (Creator of the concept of opportunity cost, very significant philosopher for libertarianism).

Is it possibly because Rand created a theory that is really objective and would not allow any side to oppress and impose their morals upon the other?

1. She attacked religion.

I understand why that would make her vunerable to attack back then, but today a lot of intellectuals (I might even venture to say the majority), are agnostic or atheist and vocal about it.

2. She attacked the notion of altrusim.

This was one place where she commonly had to fight for her legitimacy, since most people at least pretend they are altruistic, and in my opinion she did fight very hard to prove her point on this subject.

3. She calls people worthless and undeserving of love or compassion.

I have yet to hear this, sources?

These are valid criticisms, and frankly, stand up under scrutiny, only if you are intellectually objective and think about it. This is too hard to do for most people...

I don't consider what you said even criticism, it was more pointing out her controversial ideals. I understand how people who uphold controversial ideas are more susceptible to criticism, but these weren't criticisms in themselves.
ConservativeAmerican
Posts: 1,676
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5/15/2013 2:13:21 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 5/14/2013 6:47:10 PM, dylancatlow wrote:
"Why are the left so desperate to smear Ayn Rand?"

Because she was an outspoken figure whose philosophy runs opposite to that of nearly everyone else - including liberals. I don't know why conservatives like her so much, though. Her philosophy takes a dump on them just the same.

Agreed.
ConservativeAmerican
Posts: 1,676
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5/15/2013 2:20:47 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 5/14/2013 6:26:00 PM, dylancatlow wrote:
"Although it seems biased, I would really like to hear legitimate criticisms of Ayn Rand"

As Skepsikyma has mentioned before, her stance on the treatment of the Native Americans was...questionable. Moreover, she disapproved of homosexuality and continued smoking after coming to the conclusion that the proposed health concerns were propaganda. She's far from perfect, but none of these flaws are deleterious to her philosophy's legitimacy.

Apparently you didn't fully read my sources. My source claims that she did not claim that smoking concerns were outright lies, but simply that they were questionable at the time, since at this time there was not yet empirical evidence about the health risks of smoking. When there were, she quit smoking.

She was also against homosexuality morally, but she still endorsed fairness in the public sector and respected and claimed that no one had the right to interfere in on the relationship of two consenting adults. I personally consider homosexuality odd and do not understand it myself (a little more moderate then what Rand said), but I advocate for equal rights on the issue of sexuality.

http://en.wikipedia.org...

"The same is true for a dictatorship. The citizens in it have individual rights, but the country has no rights and so anyone has the right to invade it, because rights are not recognized in that country; and no individual or country can have its cake and eat it too--that is, you can't claim one should respect the "rights" of Indians, when they had no concept of rights and no respect for rights. But let's suppose they were all beautifully innocent savages--which they certainly were not."

I find it quite ironic that she, someone from SOVIET RUSSIA, would hold responsible citizens for the country they are born into, and claim they do not have the right to life merely because that's the consensus among their countrymen.
innomen
Posts: 10,052
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5/15/2013 2:57:35 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
Individualism is the exact opposite of the left. Everything about individualist thought antagonizes the left, so too her objectivism, but to a lesser extent.

Someone who is steeped in leftist thought, never hearing a counter to their doctrine, who then reads Rand is disoriented, and on the defense. The details of where social issues are in agreement are just minor coincidences that are dismissed for the greater challenge of their core doctrine.
drhead
Posts: 1,475
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5/15/2013 4:43:13 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 5/15/2013 2:57:35 PM, innomen wrote:
Individualism is the exact opposite of the left. Everything about individualist thought antagonizes the left, so too her objectivism, but to a lesser extent.

Someone who is steeped in leftist thought, never hearing a counter to their doctrine, who then reads Rand is disoriented, and on the defense. The details of where social issues are in agreement are just minor coincidences that are dismissed for the greater challenge of their core doctrine.

This gets my point across better than I would ever be able to:
http://infothread.org...

As you can see, there is more than just "left" and "right" to politics. There's much more room for an attitude that isn't "if you're not with us, you're against us".
Wall of Fail

"You reject religion... calling it a sickness, to what ends??? Are you a Homosexual??" - Dogknox
"For me, Evolution is a zombie theory. I mean imaginary cartoons and wishful thinking support it?" - Dragonfang
"There are no mental health benefits of atheism. It is devoid of rational thinking and mental protection." - Gabrian
wrichcirw
Posts: 11,196
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5/15/2013 5:06:57 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 5/14/2013 5:48:38 PM, Skepsikyma wrote:
Rand pushes buttons because she attacks altruism outright and uses terms in an unorthodox manner and rejecting a lot of popular ideas in many spheres. So misconceptions abound as a result. There are legitimate criticisms to be made, but most people who go after Rand do so without reading her or understanding her arguments clearly and base their arguments on hearsay. I think that they do this because some of her more vocal advocates have also, apparently, neither read nor understood Rand. Sadly clownish, uninformed supporters are the primary source of most of the popular misconceptions about objectivism.

At the risk of potentially becoming a "clownish, uninformed supporter" of any ideology, I fully agree with this statement. My name is wrichcirw, and I approve this message. :D
At 8/9/2013 9:41:24 AM, wrichcirw wrote:
If you are civil with me, I will be civil to you. If you decide to bring unreasonable animosity to bear in a reasonable discussion, then what would you expect other than to get flustered?
wrichcirw
Posts: 11,196
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5/15/2013 5:11:35 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 5/14/2013 3:32:34 PM, ConservativeAmerican wrote:
Why are the left so desperate to smear Ayn Rand?

After all, Rand is a centrist since she is fiscally conservative and socially liberal.

The left have made multiple campaigns to smear Rand, including flat out lying or distorting the truth when they say:

She was a hypocrite for collecting social security and medicare
She idolized a serial killer
She died penniless

Although it seems biased, I would really like to hear legitimate criticisms of Ayn Rand, and why the left seem to attack her more then other libertarian philisophers such as Noam Chomsky (still considered libertarian by most), Josiah Warren (the founder of the American anarchist movement), Frederic Bastiat (Creator of the concept of opportunity cost, very significant philosopher for libertarianism).

Is it possibly because Rand created a theory that is really objective and would not allow any side to oppress and impose their morals upon the other?

Chomsky is on the CIA payroll, IMHO

http://www.debate.org...
At 8/9/2013 9:41:24 AM, wrichcirw wrote:
If you are civil with me, I will be civil to you. If you decide to bring unreasonable animosity to bear in a reasonable discussion, then what would you expect other than to get flustered?
lewis20
Posts: 5,093
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5/15/2013 5:18:17 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
I remember Paul Ryan getting blasted for being a fan of Ayn Rand. He immediately distanced himself from her but it makes you think, the left and most politicians in general aren't willing to name an ideological influence. They refuse to give works they've studied and draw influence from. Ron Paul was crucified when he gave a laundry list of brilliant intellectual works yet I don't think I've ever heard a Romney or an Obama name a single thinker who has influenced their thinking.
I chalk it up to politics, you never want to get caught defending an actual position.
"If you are a racist I will attack you with the north"- Abraham Lincoln

"Do not wear clothing woven of two kinds of material" - Leviticus 19 19

"War is a racket" - Smedley Butler
twocupcakes
Posts: 2,750
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5/15/2013 5:18:54 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 5/14/2013 3:32:34 PM, ConservativeAmerican wrote:
Why are the left so desperate to smear Ayn Rand?

After all, Rand is a centrist since she is fiscally conservative and socially liberal.

The left have made multiple campaigns to smear Rand, including flat out lying or distorting the truth when they say:

She was a hypocrite for collecting social security and medicare
She idolized a serial killer
She died penniless

Although it seems biased, I would really like to hear legitimate criticisms of Ayn Rand, and why the left seem to attack her more then other libertarian philisophers such as Noam Chomsky (still considered libertarian by most), Josiah Warren (the founder of the American anarchist movement), Frederic Bastiat (Creator of the concept of opportunity cost, very significant philosopher for libertarianism).

Is it possibly because Rand created a theory that is really objective and would not allow any side to oppress and impose their morals upon the other?

People don't criticize her for her social policy. People criticize her for her economic policy. For example, just because conservatives agree with the Taliban on gay marriage, conservatives criticize the Taliban because they are evil and kill people, even though they agree on some things.
lewis20
Posts: 5,093
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5/15/2013 5:19:32 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 5/15/2013 5:11:35 PM, wrichcirw wrote:
At 5/14/2013 3:32:34 PM, ConservativeAmerican wrote:
Why are the left so desperate to smear Ayn Rand?

After all, Rand is a centrist since she is fiscally conservative and socially liberal.

The left have made multiple campaigns to smear Rand, including flat out lying or distorting the truth when they say:

She was a hypocrite for collecting social security and medicare
She idolized a serial killer
She died penniless

Although it seems biased, I would really like to hear legitimate criticisms of Ayn Rand, and why the left seem to attack her more then other libertarian philisophers such as Noam Chomsky (still considered libertarian by most), Josiah Warren (the founder of the American anarchist movement), Frederic Bastiat (Creator of the concept of opportunity cost, very significant philosopher for libertarianism).

Is it possibly because Rand created a theory that is really objective and would not allow any side to oppress and impose their morals upon the other?

Chomsky is on the CIA payroll, IMHO

http://www.debate.org...

I forgot about that, I'm reading his 'Deterring Democracy' right now. He's not fitting the bill so far.
"If you are a racist I will attack you with the north"- Abraham Lincoln

"Do not wear clothing woven of two kinds of material" - Leviticus 19 19

"War is a racket" - Smedley Butler
lewis20
Posts: 5,093
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5/15/2013 5:22:04 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 5/15/2013 5:18:54 PM, twocupcakes wrote:
At 5/14/2013 3:32:34 PM, ConservativeAmerican wrote:
Why are the left so desperate to smear Ayn Rand?

After all, Rand is a centrist since she is fiscally conservative and socially liberal.

The left have made multiple campaigns to smear Rand, including flat out lying or distorting the truth when they say:

She was a hypocrite for collecting social security and medicare
She idolized a serial killer
She died penniless

Although it seems biased, I would really like to hear legitimate criticisms of Ayn Rand, and why the left seem to attack her more then other libertarian philisophers such as Noam Chomsky (still considered libertarian by most), Josiah Warren (the founder of the American anarchist movement), Frederic Bastiat (Creator of the concept of opportunity cost, very significant philosopher for libertarianism).

Is it possibly because Rand created a theory that is really objective and would not allow any side to oppress and impose their morals upon the other?

People don't criticize her for her social policy. People criticize her for her economic policy. For example, just because conservatives agree with the Taliban on gay marriage, conservatives criticize the Taliban because they are evil and kill people, even though they agree on some things.

Bad example, conservatives used to love the Taliban, Ronald Reagan called them the moral equivalents of the American founding fathers.
http://4.bp.blogspot.com...
"If you are a racist I will attack you with the north"- Abraham Lincoln

"Do not wear clothing woven of two kinds of material" - Leviticus 19 19

"War is a racket" - Smedley Butler
wrichcirw
Posts: 11,196
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5/15/2013 5:34:57 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 5/15/2013 5:19:32 PM, lewis20 wrote:
At 5/15/2013 5:11:35 PM, wrichcirw wrote:
At 5/14/2013 3:32:34 PM, ConservativeAmerican wrote:
Why are the left so desperate to smear Ayn Rand?

After all, Rand is a centrist since she is fiscally conservative and socially liberal.

The left have made multiple campaigns to smear Rand, including flat out lying or distorting the truth when they say:

She was a hypocrite for collecting social security and medicare
She idolized a serial killer
She died penniless

Although it seems biased, I would really like to hear legitimate criticisms of Ayn Rand, and why the left seem to attack her more then other libertarian philisophers such as Noam Chomsky (still considered libertarian by most), Josiah Warren (the founder of the American anarchist movement), Frederic Bastiat (Creator of the concept of opportunity cost, very significant philosopher for libertarianism).

Is it possibly because Rand created a theory that is really objective and would not allow any side to oppress and impose their morals upon the other?

Chomsky is on the CIA payroll, IMHO

http://www.debate.org...

I forgot about that, I'm reading his 'Deterring Democracy' right now. He's not fitting the bill so far.

It's just a theory based on highly suspicious activity. How do you like the book?
At 8/9/2013 9:41:24 AM, wrichcirw wrote:
If you are civil with me, I will be civil to you. If you decide to bring unreasonable animosity to bear in a reasonable discussion, then what would you expect other than to get flustered?
lewis20
Posts: 5,093
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5/15/2013 5:52:43 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 5/15/2013 5:34:57 PM, wrichcirw wrote:
It's just a theory based on highly suspicious activity. How do you like the book?

I'm not far into it yet but so far it's alright, feels a bit dated (which it is) but the lessons and points are pretty timeless.
"If you are a racist I will attack you with the north"- Abraham Lincoln

"Do not wear clothing woven of two kinds of material" - Leviticus 19 19

"War is a racket" - Smedley Butler