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Collectivism: Society vs. Markets

GeoLaureate8
Posts: 12,252
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5/14/2013 4:09:34 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
I agree with Libertarians that the individual precedes society and that society is a collective term.

But what about markets? How do you personally define them?

The market is a collection of people participating in economic transactions and exchanges of goods. Is this a collective concept or is there a sharper definition that does not lend the market to a collective idea?
"We must raise the standard of the Old, free, decentralized, and strictly limited Republic."
-- Murray Rothbard

"The worst thing that can happen to a good cause is, not to be skillfully attacked, but to be ineptly defended."
-- Frederic Bastiat
Korashk
Posts: 4,597
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5/15/2013 8:27:53 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 5/14/2013 4:09:34 PM, GeoLaureate8 wrote:
I agree with Libertarians that the individual precedes society and that society is a collective term.

But what about markets? How do you personally define them?

The market is a collection of people participating in economic transactions and exchanges of goods. Is this a collective concept or is there a sharper definition that does not lend the market to a collective idea?

People behaving in a collectivist manner voluntarily is a market. The key is whether or not its voluntary. You can't have a market without the collective action of at least two individuals.
When large numbers of otherwise-law abiding people break specific laws en masse, it's usually a fault that lies with the law. - Unknown
DanT
Posts: 5,693
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5/15/2013 8:53:10 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 5/15/2013 8:27:53 PM, Korashk wrote:
At 5/14/2013 4:09:34 PM, GeoLaureate8 wrote:
I agree with Libertarians that the individual precedes society and that society is a collective term.

But what about markets? How do you personally define them?

The market is a collection of people participating in economic transactions and exchanges of goods. Is this a collective concept or is there a sharper definition that does not lend the market to a collective idea?

People behaving in a collectivist manner voluntarily is a market.
No it's not. The demand is the consumer and the supply is he producer. The demand and the supply are separate. The greater the supply the lower the price, and the greater the demand the higher the price; they work against each other to determine the price. Consumers compete with other consumers, and producers compete with other producers; that is why the supply results in lower prices and the demand results in higher prices.

"It is not from the benevolence of the butcher, the brewer or the baker, that we expect our dinner, but from their regard to their own self interest. We address ourselves, not to their humanity but to their self-love, and never talk to them of our own necessities but of their advantages." ~ Adam Smith

The key is whether or not its voluntary. You can't have a market without the collective action of at least two individuals.

>.< It is individual actions that make up the market.
"Chemical weapons are no different than any other types of weapons."~Lordknukle
DanT
Posts: 5,693
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5/15/2013 8:56:22 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 5/14/2013 4:09:34 PM, GeoLaureate8 wrote:
I agree with Libertarians that the individual precedes society and that society is a collective term.

But what about markets? How do you personally define them?

A market is a medium that allows for the buying and selling of goods. Markets are riven by supply and demand.
The market is a collection of people participating in economic transactions and exchanges of goods. Is this a collective concept or is there a sharper definition that does not lend the market to a collective idea?

It is an individual concept because the individual players in the market are serving their own interests, not the interests of the market.
"Chemical weapons are no different than any other types of weapons."~Lordknukle
YYW
Posts: 36,289
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5/17/2013 5:20:21 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
Every time I see terms like "liberal" or "collectivism" tossed around in a fashion as caviler as sloppy, I can't help but have the urge to record an hour long lecture on political philosophy. One of these days, I'll see something so base that I actually do it...
Tsar of DDO
DanT
Posts: 5,693
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5/17/2013 2:13:19 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 5/17/2013 5:20:21 AM, YYW wrote:
Every time I see terms like "liberal" or "collectivism" tossed around in a fashion as caviler as sloppy, I can't help but have the urge to record an hour long lecture on political philosophy. One of these days, I'll see something so base that I actually do it...

I agree; "liberalism" and "collectivism" are actually antonyms.
"Chemical weapons are no different than any other types of weapons."~Lordknukle
innomen
Posts: 10,052
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5/17/2013 3:00:36 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 5/15/2013 8:27:53 PM, Korashk wrote:
At 5/14/2013 4:09:34 PM, GeoLaureate8 wrote:
I agree with Libertarians that the individual precedes society and that society is a collective term.

But what about markets? How do you personally define them?

The market is a collection of people participating in economic transactions and exchanges of goods. Is this a collective concept or is there a sharper definition that does not lend the market to a collective idea?

People behaving in a collectivist manner voluntarily is a market. The key is whether or not its voluntary. You can't have a market without the collective action of at least two individuals.

This. In that the collective implies a subordination of it's members for the good of the whole, and since this isn't the case in a voluntary market process, it doesn't apply in the marxist term of 'collective'. It just happens to be a group of people engaged in similar activities, but each with individual self interest as a motive, not a goal for the good of the group.
wrichcirw
Posts: 11,196
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5/17/2013 3:29:51 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 5/15/2013 8:56:22 PM, DanT wrote:
At 5/14/2013 4:09:34 PM, GeoLaureate8 wrote:
I agree with Libertarians that the individual precedes society and that society is a collective term.

But what about markets? How do you personally define them?

A market is a medium that allows for the buying and selling of goods. Markets are riven by supply and demand.
The market is a collection of people participating in economic transactions and exchanges of goods. Is this a collective concept or is there a sharper definition that does not lend the market to a collective idea?

It is an individual concept because the individual players in the market are serving their own interests, not the interests of the market.
At 8/9/2013 9:41:24 AM, wrichcirw wrote:
If you are civil with me, I will be civil to you. If you decide to bring unreasonable animosity to bear in a reasonable discussion, then what would you expect other than to get flustered?
wrichcirw
Posts: 11,196
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5/17/2013 3:51:30 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
It's also possible to have a collectivist market.

Let's say 2 totalitarian countries conducted trade in specific goods.

Those goods would be trading on an international marketplace between two collectivist entities.
At 8/9/2013 9:41:24 AM, wrichcirw wrote:
If you are civil with me, I will be civil to you. If you decide to bring unreasonable animosity to bear in a reasonable discussion, then what would you expect other than to get flustered?
DanT
Posts: 5,693
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5/17/2013 10:15:48 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 5/17/2013 3:51:30 PM, wrichcirw wrote:
It's also possible to have a collectivist market.

Let's say 2 totalitarian countries conducted trade in specific goods.

Those goods would be trading on an international marketplace between two collectivist entities.

That is still individualist. The individual players are the nations who engage in trade, and he collective is the world. Nations don't trade with other nations to benefit the world, they trade with other nations to benefit their own nation.

I've said it once, and I'll say it again, Individualism and Collectivism is relative.
"Chemical weapons are no different than any other types of weapons."~Lordknukle