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Libertarianism Is NOT Socially Liberal

GeoLaureate8
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5/15/2013 3:26:20 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
Drhead said "I'm fairly certain we all agree on the fact that Libertarians are a better alternative to Conservatives. It's only on economic issues that we disagree."

UTTERLY FALSE.

Libertarians agree with Liberals on absolutely NOTHING. People like to say Libertarianism = Socially Liberal, Fiscally Conservative. Wrong.

Liberals believe in social justice, Libertarians denounce social justice.
Is that economic?

Liberals believe in Democracy and majority rule, Libertarians believe in a Republic.
Is that economic?

Liberals believe in government sanctioned marriage, Libertarians believe in private marriage contracts.
Is that economic?

Liberals believe in environmental protection from the Federal government, Libertarians do not.
Is that economic?

Liberals believe in Federally managed education, Libertarians do not.
Is that economic?

Liberals celebrate infanticide, Libertarians do not.
Is that economic?

Liberals denounce the Founders, Libertarianism is rooted in the Founders philosophy.
Is that economic?

Liberals believe your children belong to the state and the collective, Libertarians don't.
Is that economic?

Just because you like to get high doesn't mean you have a Libertarian principled stance on the role of government.
"We must raise the standard of the Old, free, decentralized, and strictly limited Republic."
-- Murray Rothbard

"The worst thing that can happen to a good cause is, not to be skillfully attacked, but to be ineptly defended."
-- Frederic Bastiat
000ike
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5/15/2013 3:39:21 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
Social justice, despite the name, is principally economic. Since when was republicanism a Libertarian ideal? since when is legally recognized marriage a liberal idea? I am not a liberal. I also could not care less for any similarities between these two ideologies. But if you're going to spit out falsities and call abortion infanticide - as if restricting reproductive privileges was a Libertarian contention - I have to say something.

Maybe I need to stop coming to this website, because I'm just giving myself hypertension. You have to be the LEAST intelligent person I've come across in a long time.
"A stupid despot may constrain his slaves with iron chains; but a true politician binds them even more strongly with the chain of their own ideas" - Michel Foucault
lewis20
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5/15/2013 3:41:16 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
You could just as easily make a thread about how Libertarians aren't fiscally conservative and lay out all the times so called conservatives aren't so.
"If you are a racist I will attack you with the north"- Abraham Lincoln

"Do not wear clothing woven of two kinds of material" - Leviticus 19 19

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GeoLaureate8
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5/15/2013 3:49:03 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 5/15/2013 3:41:16 PM, lewis20 wrote:
You could just as easily make a thread about how Libertarians aren't fiscally conservative and lay out all the times so called conservatives aren't so.

False.

Social justice and environmentalism etc. are not deviations from Liberalism. If I was going to do that, the list would be a lot bigger and include all the Liberal civil liberty violations.

Big spending is not Conservatism despite what Neo-Cons think.
"We must raise the standard of the Old, free, decentralized, and strictly limited Republic."
-- Murray Rothbard

"The worst thing that can happen to a good cause is, not to be skillfully attacked, but to be ineptly defended."
-- Frederic Bastiat
lewis20
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5/15/2013 4:07:57 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 5/15/2013 3:49:03 PM, GeoLaureate8 wrote:
At 5/15/2013 3:41:16 PM, lewis20 wrote:
You could just as easily make a thread about how Libertarians aren't fiscally conservative and lay out all the times so called conservatives aren't so.

False.

Dwight Schrute is my new go to character voice for anything you say ha
"If you are a racist I will attack you with the north"- Abraham Lincoln

"Do not wear clothing woven of two kinds of material" - Leviticus 19 19

"War is a racket" - Smedley Butler
wrichcirw
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5/15/2013 4:19:18 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
IMHO the key distinction between liberals and libertarians is that liberals find government spending to be a palatable solution to problems, whereas libertarians do not. To the extent that fiscal policy is a matter of economics, this really is the main difference in ideology between liberals and libertarians...minus this fiscal policy differentiation, the two ideologies are IMHO quite similar.

Libertarians, like conservatives, essentially believe in as small a fiscal budget as possible. Liberals could care less.

At 5/15/2013 3:26:20 PM, GeoLaureate8 wrote:
Drhead said "I'm fairly certain we all agree on the fact that Libertarians are a better alternative to Conservatives. It's only on economic issues that we disagree."

UTTERLY FALSE.

Libertarians agree with Liberals on absolutely NOTHING. People like to say Libertarianism = Socially Liberal, Fiscally Conservative. Wrong.

---

Liberals believe in social justice, Libertarians denounce social justice.
Is that economic?

Libertarians do NOT denounce social justice. They merely disagree with how social justice should be pursued. Liberals believe that government coercion is the route, libertarians believe the free market is the route. The end goal is the same - social justice. Libertarians balk at government intervention because of fiscal policy considerations and the overall inefficiencies inherent in non-private solutions.

http://studentsforliberty.org...

---

Liberals believe in Democracy and majority rule, Libertarians believe in a Republic.
Is that economic?

I don't think liberalism denounces a republic.
http://en.wikipedia.org...

---

Liberals believe in government sanctioned marriage, Libertarians believe in private marriage contracts.
Is that economic?

This is the means vs the ends. The ends of both liberals and libertarians are the same, equal treatment under the law. The former could care less about restrictions to law, the latter is all about restrictions to law. The main concern is government expenditure to meet this end, i.e. fiscal policy.

To see how gay rights legislation is a fiscal matter, think about the enforcement of any law. It requires the coercive arm of the government. This is expensive.

Libertarians would consider such matters, indeed most matters (including abortion), extra-legal.

Now, if someone bombed a gay marriage, or an abortion clinic, the government would get involved via police force to enforce law regarding assault and/or terrorism. This is fully consistent with libertarian views on the nature of governance.

---

Liberals believe in environmental protection from the Federal government, Libertarians do not.
Is that economic?

Depends upon the libertarian:
http://en.wikipedia.org...

What libertarians would share is a distaste for heavy-handed government involvement in the issue, i.e. fiscal policy, i.e. economics.

---

Liberals believe in Federally managed education, Libertarians do not.
Is that economic?

Yes. Federally managed education vs private education is a matter of fiscal policy, an economic issue.

---

Liberals celebrate infanticide, Libertarians do not.
Is that economic?

One can champion abortion while still being libertarian. In fact, Roe v. Wade is much more in line with core libertarian philosophy, that such actions are a private matter in which the state should simply not be involved in dictating.

"An embryo has no rights. Rights do not pertain to a potential, only to an actual being. A child cannot acquire any rights until it is born. The living take precedence over the not-yet-living (or the unborn)."

"Abortion is a moral right"which should be left to the sole discretion of the woman involved; morally, nothing other than her wish in the matter is to be considered. Who can conceivably have the right to dictate to her what disposition she is to make of the functions of her own body?"
http://aynrandlexicon.com...

The main reason you and many other libertarians are pro-LIFE is because the movement is currently firmly entrenched in the GOP. IMHO the main thing libertarians share with the GOP is a distaste for government spending, i.e. fiscal policy, i.e. economics.

---

Liberals denounce the Founders, Libertarianism is rooted in the Founders philosophy.
Is that economic?

Substantiate the bolded. Ideologically speaking, both come from the same emphasis on representative government vs authoritarianism/monarchy.

---

Liberals believe your children belong to the state and the collective, Libertarians don't.
Is that economic?

Substantiate the bolded. This sounds much more like outright communism than liberalism, although I will agree that sometimes the two share quite a bit in common.

---

Just because you like to get high doesn't mean you have a Libertarian principled stance on the role of government.

---

CONCLUSION

On anything not overtly "economic" i.e. related to fiscal policy, I've demonstrated that libertarians and liberals share a LOT in common. Whenever government expenditure enters the picture, the two ideologies separate markedly. Libertarians and conservatives would not have this fissure regarding fiscal policy.
At 8/9/2013 9:41:24 AM, wrichcirw wrote:
If you are civil with me, I will be civil to you. If you decide to bring unreasonable animosity to bear in a reasonable discussion, then what would you expect other than to get flustered?
drhead
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5/15/2013 4:26:34 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
And you still take statements from Infowars at face value, and haven't addressed my questions on your last thread (about the Bilderberg Group). Just to be clear, are you ever going to do that in that thread, or will I have to do something similar to what you've done here?
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000ike
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5/15/2013 5:06:50 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 5/15/2013 4:26:34 PM, drhead wrote:
And you still take statements from Infowars at face value, and haven't addressed my questions on your last thread (about the Bilderberg Group). Just to be clear, are you ever going to do that in that thread, or will I have to do something similar to what you've done here?

You're trying to reason with a monkey
"A stupid despot may constrain his slaves with iron chains; but a true politician binds them even more strongly with the chain of their own ideas" - Michel Foucault
GeoLaureate8
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5/15/2013 5:08:39 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 5/15/2013 5:06:50 PM, 000ike wrote:
You're trying to reason with a monkey

You have no knowledge.
"We must raise the standard of the Old, free, decentralized, and strictly limited Republic."
-- Murray Rothbard

"The worst thing that can happen to a good cause is, not to be skillfully attacked, but to be ineptly defended."
-- Frederic Bastiat
lewis20
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5/15/2013 5:11:13 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 5/15/2013 5:06:50 PM, 000ike wrote:
At 5/15/2013 4:26:34 PM, drhead wrote:
And you still take statements from Infowars at face value, and haven't addressed my questions on your last thread (about the Bilderberg Group). Just to be clear, are you ever going to do that in that thread, or will I have to do something similar to what you've done here?

You're trying to reason with a monkey

That's pretty racist.
"If you are a racist I will attack you with the north"- Abraham Lincoln

"Do not wear clothing woven of two kinds of material" - Leviticus 19 19

"War is a racket" - Smedley Butler
tBoonePickens
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5/15/2013 5:19:51 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 5/15/2013 3:26:20 PM, GeoLaureate8 wrote:
Drhead said "I'm fairly certain we all agree on the fact that Libertarians are a better alternative to Conservatives. It's only on economic issues that we disagree."

UTTERLY FALSE.
That's true: for the most part, Libertarians and Conservatives would agree on economic issues. I think that on some social issues is where they might part ways.

Libertarians agree with Liberals on absolutely NOTHING. People like to say Libertarianism = Socially Liberal, Fiscally Conservative. Wrong.
I agree that the above isn't ALWAYS the best way to describe Libertarians BUT it deos seem to apply MOST of the time. Regardless, there are plenty of issues where Liberals & Libertarians ARE in agreement; after all, the word "Libertarian" came to be used after Progressives hijacked "Liberalism" which is what what Libertarians were called back then. This is a common place move for Progressives: take over the language and redefine the terms in order to win the argument or shut down debate.

Liberals believe in social justice, Libertarians denounce social justice.
Agreed. Libertarians believe in justice like Conservatives do. Liberals attempt to redefine things, so they come up with "social justice" as a some egalitarian ideal that's somehow different or morally superior to just plain justice.

Is that economic?
No, but so what?

Liberals believe in Democracy and majority rule, Libertarians believe in a Republic.
OK.

Liberals believe in government sanctioned marriage, Libertarians believe in private marriage contracts.
That's a false distinction. Both believe in marriage contracts that have legal obligations.

Liberals believe in environmental protection from the Federal government, Libertarians do not.
I agree: Liberal-Progressives are Statists and believe that the Government needs to coerce the masses into protecting the environment.

Liberals believe in Federally managed education, Libertarians do not.
I agree: Liberal-Progressives are Statists and believe that the Government needs to coerce the masses into being educated.

Liberals celebrate infanticide, Libertarians do not.
Well, that's not so. Plenty of Liberals take the approach that they would never personally abort but do not want to force others to not abort. This is a far cry from celebrating infanticide. On the other hand, most Libertarians would be for not allowing the Government to intervene with respect to abortions; Libertarians are not anti-abortion. This is one case where Libertarians are more in line with Liberals and less in line with Conservatives who are staunch anti-abortionists.

Liberals denounce the Founders, Libertarianism is rooted in the Founders philosophy.
I couldn't agree with you more on the fact that Liberals denounce the Founders; however, Libertarians also part ways with the Founders on points where the Founders were not Libertarian.

Liberals believe your children belong to the state and the collective, Libertarians don't.
I agree. Remember "It Takes a Village"? Need you say more?

Just because you like to get high doesn't mean you have a Libertarian principled stance on the role of government.
True, but there are plenty of other issues where the cross and are both against Conservatism. A perfect example is the military: Conservatism is pro strong military and active foreign policy who's primary goal is to protect America's interests abroad and Liberalism and Libertarinism is not for.
WOS
: At 10/3/2012 4:28:52 AM, Wallstreetatheist wrote:
: Without nothing existing, you couldn't have something.
drhead
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5/15/2013 5:28:49 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 5/15/2013 5:08:39 PM, GeoLaureate8 wrote:
At 5/15/2013 5:06:50 PM, 000ike wrote:
You're trying to reason with a monkey

You have no knowledge.

Well, I do hope you're going to prove that by at least attempting to defend your statements. Or are you just going to continue to be arrogant and not admit when you are wrong?
Wall of Fail

"You reject religion... calling it a sickness, to what ends??? Are you a Homosexual??" - Dogknox
"For me, Evolution is a zombie theory. I mean imaginary cartoons and wishful thinking support it?" - Dragonfang
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GeoLaureate8
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5/15/2013 6:04:29 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 5/15/2013 4:26:34 PM, drhead wrote:
And you still take statements from Infowars at face value, and haven't addressed my questions on your last thread (about the Bilderberg Group). Just to be clear, are you ever going to do that in that thread, or will I have to do something similar to what you've done here?

Your question about transhumanism and technocracy cannot be answered in one sentence nor can it be easily typed on my Kindle.

Hold on. A postponed response is not a concession.
"We must raise the standard of the Old, free, decentralized, and strictly limited Republic."
-- Murray Rothbard

"The worst thing that can happen to a good cause is, not to be skillfully attacked, but to be ineptly defended."
-- Frederic Bastiat
GeoLaureate8
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5/15/2013 6:11:51 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 5/15/2013 5:11:13 PM, lewis20 wrote:
At 5/15/2013 5:06:50 PM, 000ike wrote:
You're trying to reason with a monkey

That's pretty racist.

It is quite ironic that a Liberal like 000ike can call a Mexican person a monkey and not be considered a racist.
"We must raise the standard of the Old, free, decentralized, and strictly limited Republic."
-- Murray Rothbard

"The worst thing that can happen to a good cause is, not to be skillfully attacked, but to be ineptly defended."
-- Frederic Bastiat
000ike
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5/15/2013 6:22:39 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 5/15/2013 6:11:51 PM, GeoLaureate8 wrote:
At 5/15/2013 5:11:13 PM, lewis20 wrote:
At 5/15/2013 5:06:50 PM, 000ike wrote:
You're trying to reason with a monkey

That's pretty racist.

It is quite ironic that a Liberal like 000ike can call a Mexican person a monkey and not be considered a racist.

I am not a liberal; and the reference to monkey concerns your intelligence not your ethnicity.
"A stupid despot may constrain his slaves with iron chains; but a true politician binds them even more strongly with the chain of their own ideas" - Michel Foucault
dylancatlow
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5/15/2013 6:24:45 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 5/15/2013 6:22:39 PM, 000ike wrote:
At 5/15/2013 6:11:51 PM, GeoLaureate8 wrote:
At 5/15/2013 5:11:13 PM, lewis20 wrote:
At 5/15/2013 5:06:50 PM, 000ike wrote:
You're trying to reason with a monkey

That's pretty racist.

It is quite ironic that a Liberal like 000ike can call a Mexican person a monkey and not be considered a racist.

I am not a liberal; and the reference to monkey concerns your intelligence not your ethnicity.

What if I told you: if you don't want to be labeled as a liberal, don't declare yourself one on your profile page.
000ike
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5/15/2013 6:26:32 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 5/15/2013 6:24:45 PM, dylancatlow wrote:
At 5/15/2013 6:22:39 PM, 000ike wrote:
At 5/15/2013 6:11:51 PM, GeoLaureate8 wrote:
At 5/15/2013 5:11:13 PM, lewis20 wrote:
At 5/15/2013 5:06:50 PM, 000ike wrote:
You're trying to reason with a monkey

That's pretty racist.

It is quite ironic that a Liberal like 000ike can call a Mexican person a monkey and not be considered a racist.

I am not a liberal; and the reference to monkey concerns your intelligence not your ethnicity.

What if I told you: if you don't want to be labeled as a liberal, don't declare yourself one on your profile page.

that status is old
"A stupid despot may constrain his slaves with iron chains; but a true politician binds them even more strongly with the chain of their own ideas" - Michel Foucault
dylancatlow
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5/15/2013 6:29:36 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
To the OP: what about abortion rights, drug decriminalization, non-intervention, shared loathing for things like the patriot act?
Contra
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5/15/2013 7:12:11 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 5/15/2013 3:39:21 PM, 000ike wrote:
I am not a liberal.

But man you were the epitome of American liberalism on DDO! That role does need to be defended on here from time to time...

Healthy debate is obviously critical for the success of DDO.
"The solution [for Republicans] is to admit that Bush was a bad president, stop this racist homophobic stuff, stop trying to give most of the tax cuts to the rich, propose a real alternative to Obamacare that actually works, and propose smart free market solutions to our economic problems." - Distraff

"Americans are better off in a dynamic, free-enterprise-based economy that fosters economic growth, opportunity and upward mobility." - Paul Ryan
Contra
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5/15/2013 7:13:37 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 5/15/2013 3:26:20 PM, GeoLaureate8 wrote:
Drhead said "I'm fairly certain we all agree on the fact that Libertarians are a better alternative to Conservatives. It's only on economic issues that we disagree."

UTTERLY FALSE.

Libertarians agree with Liberals on absolutely NOTHING.

I'll just have to point out some things.

Both sides agree on legalizing pot, and sometimes all other drugs as well. Of course, both sides disagree on what should occur after that.

Also, both sides sometimes agree to a non interventionist foreign policy.
"The solution [for Republicans] is to admit that Bush was a bad president, stop this racist homophobic stuff, stop trying to give most of the tax cuts to the rich, propose a real alternative to Obamacare that actually works, and propose smart free market solutions to our economic problems." - Distraff

"Americans are better off in a dynamic, free-enterprise-based economy that fosters economic growth, opportunity and upward mobility." - Paul Ryan
YYW
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5/15/2013 7:23:53 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 5/15/2013 3:26:20 PM, GeoLaureate8 wrote:
Drhead said "I'm fairly certain we all agree on the fact that Libertarians are a better alternative to Conservatives. It's only on economic issues that we disagree."

UTTERLY FALSE.

Libertarians agree with Liberals on absolutely NOTHING. People like to say Libertarianism = Socially Liberal, Fiscally Conservative. Wrong.

Liberals believe in social justice, Libertarians denounce social justice.
Is that economic?

Liberals believe in Democracy and majority rule, Libertarians believe in a Republic.
Is that economic?

Liberals believe in government sanctioned marriage, Libertarians believe in private marriage contracts.
Is that economic?

Liberals believe in environmental protection from the Federal government, Libertarians do not.
Is that economic?

Liberals believe in Federally managed education, Libertarians do not.
Is that economic?

Liberals celebrate infanticide, Libertarians do not.
Is that economic?

Liberals denounce the Founders, Libertarianism is rooted in the Founders philosophy.
Is that economic?

Liberals believe your children belong to the state and the collective, Libertarians don't.
Is that economic?

Just because you like to get high doesn't mean you have a Libertarian principled stance on the role of government.

I enjoy these monolithic generalizations... as if ALL liberals and libertarians were (1) of one mind and (2) actually thought what you outlined. Thanks, Geo. I needed a good laugh today.
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Wallstreetatheist
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5/15/2013 7:39:40 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 5/15/2013 6:18:59 PM, dylancatlow wrote:
"Libertarians agree with Liberals on absolutely NOTHING. "

I nominate this for the weekly stupid.

Seconded
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jimtimmy2
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5/15/2013 7:50:17 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
It is a myth that American social liberalism is only economically statist. They are statist in pretty much every area.

Still, Republicans pretend to be economically libertarian when they are only marginally more libertarian than Democrats in rhetoric and not at all more libertarian in practice.
RyuuKyuzo
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5/15/2013 9:11:38 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
When people say libertarianism is socially liberal, fiscally conservative, it's just an approximation. Libertarianism is a unique political ideology in its own right, but the similarities are there, so an easy way to understand what libertarianism is in a nut shell is to compare tendencies and draw parallels between other political ideologies.

Obviously there's more to libertarianism than social liberalism and fiscal conservatism, but as far as one-liners go for accurately representing an ideology, it's one of the better ones.
If you're reading this, you're awesome and you should feel awesome.
wrichcirw
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5/15/2013 9:58:37 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 5/15/2013 9:11:38 PM, RyuuKyuzo wrote:
When people say libertarianism is socially liberal, fiscally conservative, it's just an approximation. Libertarianism is a unique political ideology in its own right, but the similarities are there, so an easy way to understand what libertarianism is in a nut shell is to compare tendencies and draw parallels between other political ideologies.

Obviously there's more to libertarianism than social liberalism and fiscal conservatism, but as far as one-liners go for accurately representing an ideology, it's one of the better ones.
At 8/9/2013 9:41:24 AM, wrichcirw wrote:
If you are civil with me, I will be civil to you. If you decide to bring unreasonable animosity to bear in a reasonable discussion, then what would you expect other than to get flustered?
DanT
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5/15/2013 10:29:55 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
This is based on the Nolan chart. Like many political charts, it is based on bias misconceptions, with arbitrary axes.
The Nolan chart was drawn up as a provisionary chart to explain libertarianism.

To claim conservatives are authoritarian on social issues and libertarian on economic issues is not only wrong but absurd. This would mean all social reforms are libertarian, which is not necessarily true. It would also mean all economic reforms are authoritarian; which is also not true.

Conservatives (liberal conservatives + traditional conservatives) are traditionalists while "liberals" aka progressives (social liberals + populists) are reformist.

Libertarians (classic liberals + anarchists) are individualists as opposed to fascists (nationalists + socialists) who are collectivists.
"Chemical weapons are no different than any other types of weapons."~Lordknukle
dylancatlow
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5/15/2013 10:34:59 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
"To claim conservatives are authoritarian on social issues and libertarian on economic issues is not only wrong but absurd. This would mean all social reforms are libertarian, which is not necessarily true. It would also mean all economic reforms are authoritarian; which is also not true."

This is nonsense.
dylancatlow
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5/15/2013 10:39:21 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 5/15/2013 10:34:59 PM, dylancatlow wrote:
"To claim conservatives are authoritarian on social issues and libertarian on economic issues is not only wrong but absurd. This would mean all social reforms are libertarian, which is not necessarily true. It would also mean all economic reforms are authoritarian; which is also not true."

This is nonsense.

'Conservative' entails two things: one being a floating abstracting (which has no place being discussed for a political compass) , and the other corresponding to a specific group of people.
dylancatlow
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5/15/2013 10:40:30 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 5/15/2013 10:39:21 PM, dylancatlow wrote:
At 5/15/2013 10:34:59 PM, dylancatlow wrote:
"To claim conservatives are authoritarian on social issues and libertarian on economic issues is not only wrong but absurd. This would mean all social reforms are libertarian, which is not necessarily true. It would also mean all economic reforms are authoritarian; which is also not true."

This is nonsense.

'Conservative' entails two things: one being a floating abstracting (which has no place being discussed for a political compass) , and the other corresponding to a specific group of people.

You're invoking the former with no consideration for the latter, when the latter is the only thing that matters!