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The most overrated quote in history

ConservativeAmerican
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5/21/2013 2:31:27 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
"And so, my fellow Americans: ask not what your country can do for you " ask what you can do for your country."

-John F. Kennedy

This quote was shoved down my throat starting at the wee age of eight.

I find it to be flawed by nature and find that it sends a message that the government is there for us to serve it, not vice versa. You should ask what your country can do for you, because if the majority of people are doing more for their country then their country is doing for them, there is a problem.

First of all, the word 'country' is deceptive, a country in itself is just imaginary borders. If JFK wanted to be honest, he would have replaced 'country' with 'government', and that would not have sounded so nice. The government is there to serve the people, if the people are serving it the government is not doing their job.

Ultimately, this quote sends a bad message, and any idiot would and could realize it if they analyzed the quote outside of their school's doctrine.
GeoLaureate8
Posts: 12,252
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5/21/2013 2:35:36 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
Government =/= Country.

JFK was not saying to worship the government.
"We must raise the standard of the Old, free, decentralized, and strictly limited Republic."
-- Murray Rothbard

"The worst thing that can happen to a good cause is, not to be skillfully attacked, but to be ineptly defended."
-- Frederic Bastiat
ConservativeAmerican
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5/21/2013 2:38:51 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 5/21/2013 2:35:36 PM, GeoLaureate8 wrote:
Government =/= Country.

JFK was not saying to worship the government.

I feel stupid, what does =/= mean? I see people use it on here all the time.

Once you tell me that I'll be able to reply to you properly.
darkkermit
Posts: 11,204
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5/21/2013 2:40:23 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 5/21/2013 2:38:51 PM, ConservativeAmerican wrote:
At 5/21/2013 2:35:36 PM, GeoLaureate8 wrote:
Government =/= Country.

JFK was not saying to worship the government.

I feel stupid, what does =/= mean? I see people use it on here all the time.

Once you tell me that I'll be able to reply to you properly.

not equal to.
Open borders debate:
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ConservativeAmerican
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5/21/2013 2:43:54 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 5/21/2013 2:35:36 PM, GeoLaureate8 wrote:
Government =/= Country.

JFK was not saying to worship the government.

I already explained that he should have used the word government instead of country, I don't think he meant we should do something for our invisible borders (that is what a country is), what would he want us to do for our invisible borders? He essentially meant government, and he was basically saying that you should give more to the government then it gives back to you, which is a load of BS.
ConservativeAmerican
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5/21/2013 2:44:03 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 5/21/2013 2:40:23 PM, darkkermit wrote:
At 5/21/2013 2:38:51 PM, ConservativeAmerican wrote:
At 5/21/2013 2:35:36 PM, GeoLaureate8 wrote:
Government =/= Country.

JFK was not saying to worship the government.

I feel stupid, what does =/= mean? I see people use it on here all the time.

Once you tell me that I'll be able to reply to you properly.

not equal to.

Thanks.
ConservativePolitico
Posts: 8,210
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5/21/2013 3:29:44 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
The quote means you shouldn't be demanding government welfare and help all the time, you should be a patriotic citizen who works to better the country outside of government help.
ConservativeAmerican
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5/21/2013 3:34:56 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 5/21/2013 3:29:44 PM, ConservativePolitico wrote:
The quote means you shouldn't be demanding government welfare and help all the time, you should be a patriotic citizen who works to better the country outside of government help.

This seems to be your interpretation of it.

I would be fine collecting unemployment AND food stamps and any other government assistance if I was simply collecting on what I put in to the system. If I don't collect on the entitlements I paid in to, the government would only use it to further expand the state. (Yes, that is based off of Ayn Rand's ideology).
DanT
Posts: 5,693
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5/21/2013 5:00:52 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 5/21/2013 2:31:27 PM, ConservativeAmerican wrote:
"And so, my fellow Americans: ask not what your country can do for you " ask what you can do for your country."

-John F. Kennedy

This quote was shoved down my throat starting at the wee age of eight.

I find it to be flawed by nature and find that it sends a message that the government is there for us to serve it, not vice versa.

Country =/= Government

A country is the entire nation of a specific territory; hence it is the people not the state.

JFK was actually Conservative, and thought Progressives were "Bleeding Hearts". He was also friends with Nixon and even threatened that if he was not nominated by the Democratic Party he would vote Nixon.

You should ask what your country can do for you, because if the majority of people are doing more for their country then their country is doing for them, there is a problem.

Seeing as by Country you mean the government.... The government's sole role is to protect the life, liberty, and property of the people; nothing more, nothing less.
First of all, the word 'country' is deceptive, a country in itself is just imaginary borders. If JFK wanted to be honest, he would have replaced 'country' with 'government', and that would not have sounded so nice. The government is there to serve the people, if the people are serving it the government is not doing their job.

You really need to look at the context of the quote, rather than just a soundbite.

"In the long history of the world, only a few generations have been granted the role of defending freedom in its hour of maximum danger. I do not shank from this responsibility " I welcome it. I do not believe that any of us would exchange places with any other people or any other generation. The energy, the faith, the devotion which we bring to this endeavour will light our country and all who serve it " and the glow from that fire can truly light the world.

And so, my fellow Americans: ask not what your country can do for you " ask what you can do for your country.

My fellow citizens of the world: ask not what America will do for you, but what together we can do for the freedom of man."

Ultimately, this quote sends a bad message, and any idiot would and could realize it if they analyzed the quote outside of their school's doctrine.

So you believe people should be asking what their fellow Americans can do for them rather than what they can do for their fellow Americans?
"Chemical weapons are no different than any other types of weapons."~Lordknukle
sadolite
Posts: 8,838
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5/21/2013 5:12:57 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 5/21/2013 3:34:56 PM, ConservativeAmerican wrote:
At 5/21/2013 3:29:44 PM, ConservativePolitico wrote:
The quote means you shouldn't be demanding government welfare and help all the time, you should be a patriotic citizen who works to better the country outside of government help.

This seems to be your interpretation of it.

I would be fine collecting unemployment AND food stamps and any other government assistance if I was simply collecting on what I put in to the system. If I don't collect on the entitlements I paid in to, the government would only use it to further expand the state. (Yes, that is based off of Ayn Rand's ideology).

"if I was simply collecting on what I put in to the system. "

The only reason anyone puts into the system is fear of prosecution and imprisonment.
It's not your views that divide us, it's what you think my views should be that divides us.

If you think I will give up my rights and forsake social etiquette to make you "FEEL" better you are sadly mistaken

If liberal democrats would just stop shooting people gun violence would drop by 90%
ConservativeAmerican
Posts: 1,676
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5/21/2013 7:48:19 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 5/21/2013 5:00:52 PM, DanT wrote:
At 5/21/2013 2:31:27 PM, ConservativeAmerican wrote:
"And so, my fellow Americans: ask not what your country can do for you " ask what you can do for your country."

-John F. Kennedy

This quote was shoved down my throat starting at the wee age of eight.

I find it to be flawed by nature and find that it sends a message that the government is there for us to serve it, not vice versa.

Country =/= Government

A country is the entire nation of a specific territory; hence it is the people not the state.

You contradict yourself here as you go on to show the rest of the quote where he preludes talking about how what we should do for our country is 'defend freedom', obviously he is talking about the government.

JFK was actually Conservative, and thought Progressives were "Bleeding Hearts". He was also friends with Nixon and even threatened that if he was not nominated by the Democratic Party he would vote Nixon.

You should ask what your country can do for you, because if the majority of people are doing more for their country then their country is doing for them, there is a problem.

Seeing as by Country you mean the government.... The government's sole role is to protect the life, liberty, and property of the people; nothing more, nothing less.

Ideally that is all they are supposed to do, is that all they have been doing the past century and even beyond that? You would be hard pressed to say yes and argue it.

First of all, the word 'country' is deceptive, a country in itself is just imaginary borders. If JFK wanted to be honest, he would have replaced 'country' with 'government', and that would not have sounded so nice. The government is there to serve the people, if the people are serving it the government is not doing their job.

You really need to look at the context of the quote, rather than just a soundbite.

I did, it further proves what I mean, thanks!

"In the long history of the world, only a few generations have been granted the role of defending freedom in its hour of maximum danger. I do not shank from this responsibility " I welcome it. I do not believe that any of us would exchange places with any other people or any other generation. The energy, the faith, the devotion which we bring to this endeavour will light our country and all who serve it " and the glow from that fire can truly light the world.

And so, my fellow Americans: ask not what your country can do for you " ask what you can do for your country.

My fellow citizens of the world: ask not what America will do for you, but what together we can do for the freedom of man."


Ultimately, this quote sends a bad message, and any idiot would and could realize it if they analyzed the quote outside of their school's doctrine.

So you believe people should be asking what their fellow Americans can do for them rather than what they can do for their fellow Americans?

No, no one should be asking anyone for anything from anyone else.
ConservativeAmerican
Posts: 1,676
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5/21/2013 7:49:19 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 5/21/2013 5:12:57 PM, sadolite wrote:
At 5/21/2013 3:34:56 PM, ConservativeAmerican wrote:
At 5/21/2013 3:29:44 PM, ConservativePolitico wrote:
The quote means you shouldn't be demanding government welfare and help all the time, you should be a patriotic citizen who works to better the country outside of government help.

This seems to be your interpretation of it.

I would be fine collecting unemployment AND food stamps and any other government assistance if I was simply collecting on what I put in to the system. If I don't collect on the entitlements I paid in to, the government would only use it to further expand the state. (Yes, that is based off of Ayn Rand's ideology).

"if I was simply collecting on what I put in to the system. "

The only reason anyone puts into the system is fear of prosecution and imprisonment.

That doesn't mean people don't want to receive what they put back in to the system if they can, but the public makes it seem like some hideous, disgusting thing when if you were previously employed all you are doing is collecting on what you payed for.
Ore_Ele
Posts: 25,980
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5/21/2013 7:55:31 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 5/21/2013 5:12:57 PM, sadolite wrote:
At 5/21/2013 3:34:56 PM, ConservativeAmerican wrote:
At 5/21/2013 3:29:44 PM, ConservativePolitico wrote:
The quote means you shouldn't be demanding government welfare and help all the time, you should be a patriotic citizen who works to better the country outside of government help.

This seems to be your interpretation of it.

I would be fine collecting unemployment AND food stamps and any other government assistance if I was simply collecting on what I put in to the system. If I don't collect on the entitlements I paid in to, the government would only use it to further expand the state. (Yes, that is based off of Ayn Rand's ideology).

"if I was simply collecting on what I put in to the system. "

The only reason anyone puts into the system is fear of prosecution and imprisonment.

false. That is the reason that you do it. That is not the reason that everyone does it. Believe it or not, some people actually support the concept of it and willingly contribute to it.
"Wanting Red Rhino Pill to have gender"
DanT
Posts: 5,693
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5/21/2013 8:13:39 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 5/21/2013 7:48:19 PM, ConservativeAmerican wrote:
At 5/21/2013 5:00:52 PM, DanT wrote:
At 5/21/2013 2:31:27 PM, ConservativeAmerican wrote:
"And so, my fellow Americans: ask not what your country can do for you " ask what you can do for your country."

-John F. Kennedy

This quote was shoved down my throat starting at the wee age of eight.

I find it to be flawed by nature and find that it sends a message that the government is there for us to serve it, not vice versa.

Country =/= Government

A country is the entire nation of a specific territory; hence it is the people not the state.

You contradict yourself here as you go on to show the rest of the quote where he preludes talking about how what we should do for our country is 'defend freedom', obviously he is talking about the government.

Defend Freedom =/= Government

This is an issue I have found time and time again, where people ignore what is being said, and the context in which it is said, by inserting their own subtext where none exists.

JFK was actually Conservative, and thought Progressives were "Bleeding Hearts". He was also friends with Nixon and even threatened that if he was not nominated by the Democratic Party he would vote Nixon.

You should ask what your country can do for you, because if the majority of people are doing more for their country then their country is doing for them, there is a problem.

Seeing as by Country you mean the government.... The government's sole role is to protect the life, liberty, and property of the people; nothing more, nothing less.

Ideally that is all they are supposed to do, is that all they have been doing the past century and even beyond that?
No, but we are not talking about that, we are talking about JFK's speech. Please stay on topic.
You would be hard pressed to say yes and argue it.

Irrelevant to the topic at hand.
First of all, the word 'country' is deceptive, a country in itself is just imaginary borders. If JFK wanted to be honest, he would have replaced 'country' with 'government', and that would not have sounded so nice. The government is there to serve the people, if the people are serving it the government is not doing their job.

You really need to look at the context of the quote, rather than just a soundbite.

I did, it further proves what I mean, thanks!
You obviously didn't. Notice how I said "look at the context"? The key word being "context". You are inserting subtext, which is different than context. Context is the way a word is used in a sentence. The other words and phrases in the sentence change the context of the word or phrase in question. Subtext is a the implicit meaning of a word. Context is a specified meaning, while Subtext is an implied meaning. Sarcasm is a form of subtext, where one says one thing but implies another.

"In the long history of the world, only a few generations have been granted the role of defending freedom in its hour of maximum danger. I do not shank from this responsibility " I welcome it. I do not believe that any of us would exchange places with any other people or any other generation. The energy, the faith, the devotion which we bring to this endeavour will light our country and all who serve it " and the glow from that fire can truly light the world.

And so, my fellow Americans: ask not what your country can do for you " ask what you can do for your country.

My fellow citizens of the world: ask not what America will do for you, but what together we can do for the freedom of man."


Ultimately, this quote sends a bad message, and any idiot would and could realize it if they analyzed the quote outside of their school's doctrine.

So you believe people should be asking what their fellow Americans can do for them rather than what they can do for their fellow Americans?

No, no one should be asking anyone for anything from anyone else.

So you agree with JFK that you should not be asking others for things, you should be asking yourself what you could do for others?
"Chemical weapons are no different than any other types of weapons."~Lordknukle
dylancatlow
Posts: 12,245
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5/21/2013 8:16:24 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 5/21/2013 3:29:44 PM, ConservativePolitico wrote:
The quote means you shouldn't be demanding government welfare and help all the time, you should be a patriotic citizen who works to better the country outside of government help.

That's exactly what it means and that's exactly why I find it atrocious.
Ore_Ele
Posts: 25,980
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5/21/2013 8:19:29 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 5/21/2013 8:16:24 PM, dylancatlow wrote:
At 5/21/2013 3:29:44 PM, ConservativePolitico wrote:
The quote means you shouldn't be demanding government welfare and help all the time, you should be a patriotic citizen who works to better the country outside of government help.

That's exactly what it means and that's exactly why I find it atrocious.

Do you find it atrocious because of the word "should" or because it focuses on a form of collective?
"Wanting Red Rhino Pill to have gender"
ConservativeAmerican
Posts: 1,676
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5/21/2013 8:21:25 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 5/21/2013 8:13:39 PM, DanT wrote:
At 5/21/2013 7:48:19 PM, ConservativeAmerican wrote:
At 5/21/2013 5:00:52 PM, DanT wrote:
At 5/21/2013 2:31:27 PM, ConservativeAmerican wrote:
"And so, my fellow Americans: ask not what your country can do for you " ask what you can do for your country."

-John F. Kennedy

This quote was shoved down my throat starting at the wee age of eight.

I find it to be flawed by nature and find that it sends a message that the government is there for us to serve it, not vice versa.

Country =/= Government


A country is the entire nation of a specific territory; hence it is the people not the state.

You contradict yourself here as you go on to show the rest of the quote where he preludes talking about how what we should do for our country is 'defend freedom', obviously he is talking about the government.

Defend Freedom =/= Government

Who, as you said yourself supposedly defends our freedoms?

This is an issue I have found time and time again, where people ignore what is being said, and the context in which it is said, by inserting their own subtext where none exists.

Analyzing Text=/=Distorting the text

JFK was actually Conservative, and thought Progressives were "Bleeding Hearts". He was also friends with Nixon and even threatened that if he was not nominated by the Democratic Party he would vote Nixon.

You should ask what your country can do for you, because if the majority of people are doing more for their country then their country is doing for them, there is a problem.

Seeing as by Country you mean the government.... The government's sole role is to protect the life, liberty, and property of the people; nothing more, nothing less.

Ideally that is all they are supposed to do, is that all they have been doing the past century and even beyond that?
No, but we are not talking about that, we are talking about JFK's speech. Please stay on topic.
You would be hard pressed to say yes and argue it.

Irrelevant to the topic at hand.
First of all, the word 'country' is deceptive, a country in itself is just imaginary borders. If JFK wanted to be honest, he would have replaced 'country' with 'government', and that would not have sounded so nice. The government is there to serve the people, if the people are serving it the government is not doing their job.

You really need to look at the context of the quote, rather than just a soundbite.

I did, it further proves what I mean, thanks!
You obviously didn't. Notice how I said "look at the context"? The key word being "context". You are inserting subtext, which is different than context. Context is the way a word is used in a sentence. The other words and phrases in the sentence change the context of the word or phrase in question.

Context is up for interpretation, the way a word is used in a sentence can be interpreted in more then one way the majority of the time. And that was my point, the other words and phrases are about promoting an interventionist policy, and who does that benefit? Certainly not me, or you or anyone in this 'country' of sorts.

Subtext is a the implicit meaning of a word. Context is a specified meaning, while Subtext is an implied meaning. Sarcasm is a form of subtext, where one says one thing but implies another.

This is flawed in itself, there are times when people aren't being sarcastic and still whole debates are created simple on the interpretation of a quote, there is no meaning of anything that is set in stone.

"In the long history of the world, only a few generations have been granted the role of defending freedom in its hour of maximum danger. I do not shank from this responsibility " I welcome it. I do not believe that any of us would exchange places with any other people or any other generation. The energy, the faith, the devotion which we bring to this endeavour will light our country and all who serve it " and the glow from that fire can truly light the world.

And so, my fellow Americans: ask not what your country can do for you " ask what you can do for your country.

My fellow citizens of the world: ask not what America will do for you, but what together we can do for the freedom of man."


Ultimately, this quote sends a bad message, and any idiot would and could realize it if they analyzed the quote outside of their school's doctrine.

So you believe people should be asking what their fellow Americans can do for them rather than what they can do for their fellow Americans?

No, no one should be asking anyone for anything from anyone else.

So you agree with JFK that you should not be asking others for things, you should be asking yourself what you could do for others?

No, I should be asking myself what I can to for myself to advance myself, not what I can do to for others to advance their way of life. If everyone asked themselves what they could do for the betterment of themselves no one would have to help better anyone else.
dylancatlow
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5/21/2013 8:21:30 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 5/21/2013 8:19:29 PM, Ore_Ele wrote:
At 5/21/2013 8:16:24 PM, dylancatlow wrote:
At 5/21/2013 3:29:44 PM, ConservativePolitico wrote:
The quote means you shouldn't be demanding government welfare and help all the time, you should be a patriotic citizen who works to better the country outside of government help.

That's exactly what it means and that's exactly why I find it atrocious.

Do you find it atrocious because of the word "should" or because it focuses on a form of collective?

The latter.
dylancatlow
Posts: 12,245
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5/21/2013 8:23:26 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 5/21/2013 8:21:30 PM, dylancatlow wrote:
At 5/21/2013 8:19:29 PM, Ore_Ele wrote:
At 5/21/2013 8:16:24 PM, dylancatlow wrote:
At 5/21/2013 3:29:44 PM, ConservativePolitico wrote:
The quote means you shouldn't be demanding government welfare and help all the time, you should be a patriotic citizen who works to better the country outside of government help.

That's exactly what it means and that's exactly why I find it atrocious.

Do you find it atrocious because of the word "should" or because it focuses on a form of collective?

The latter.

But only because it implies an 'ought.' So the actual answer is both, but the former is only because of the latter.
Ore_Ele
Posts: 25,980
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5/21/2013 8:24:23 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 5/21/2013 8:21:30 PM, dylancatlow wrote:
At 5/21/2013 8:19:29 PM, Ore_Ele wrote:
At 5/21/2013 8:16:24 PM, dylancatlow wrote:
At 5/21/2013 3:29:44 PM, ConservativePolitico wrote:
The quote means you shouldn't be demanding government welfare and help all the time, you should be a patriotic citizen who works to better the country outside of government help.

That's exactly what it means and that's exactly why I find it atrocious.

Do you find it atrocious because of the word "should" or because it focuses on a form of collective?

The latter.

Then I am sorry that you find it atrocious that people have different views than you. If your issue was the implication of a moral obligation to do something, I could be more understanding.
"Wanting Red Rhino Pill to have gender"
ConservativeAmerican
Posts: 1,676
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5/21/2013 8:25:49 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 5/21/2013 8:24:23 PM, Ore_Ele wrote:
At 5/21/2013 8:21:30 PM, dylancatlow wrote:
At 5/21/2013 8:19:29 PM, Ore_Ele wrote:
At 5/21/2013 8:16:24 PM, dylancatlow wrote:
At 5/21/2013 3:29:44 PM, ConservativePolitico wrote:
The quote means you shouldn't be demanding government welfare and help all the time, you should be a patriotic citizen who works to better the country outside of government help.

That's exactly what it means and that's exactly why I find it atrocious.

Do you find it atrocious because of the word "should" or because it focuses on a form of collective?

The latter.

Then I am sorry that you find it atrocious that people have different views than you.

I don't think he meant he finds the person who said that as atrocious, but the idea in itself, so your point here really is deceptive, because it is far more likely he was claiming the idea was atrocious, not the person who said it.

If your issue was the implication of a moral obligation to do something, I could be more understanding.
Skepsikyma
Posts: 8,285
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5/21/2013 8:27:28 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
Hate this quote with a burning passion, because it suggests the the individual should be viewed as secondary to the collective, when really it's the other way around. Plus there's the overall gag factor that my cynicism and general misanthropy tend to induce.
"The Collectivist experiment is thoroughly suited (in appearance at least) to the Capitalist society which it proposes to replace. It works with the existing machinery of Capitalism, talks and thinks in the existing terms of Capitalism, appeals to just those appetites which Capitalism has aroused, and ridicules as fantastic and unheard-of just those things in society the memory of which Capitalism has killed among men wherever the blight of it has spread."
- Hilaire Belloc -
dylancatlow
Posts: 12,245
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5/21/2013 8:32:15 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 5/21/2013 8:24:23 PM, Ore_Ele wrote:
At 5/21/2013 8:21:30 PM, dylancatlow wrote:
At 5/21/2013 8:19:29 PM, Ore_Ele wrote:
At 5/21/2013 8:16:24 PM, dylancatlow wrote:
At 5/21/2013 3:29:44 PM, ConservativePolitico wrote:
The quote means you shouldn't be demanding government welfare and help all the time, you should be a patriotic citizen who works to better the country outside of government help.

That's exactly what it means and that's exactly why I find it atrocious.

Do you find it atrocious because of the word "should" or because it focuses on a form of collective?

The latter.

Then I am sorry that you find it atrocious that people have different views than you. If your issue was the implication of a moral obligation to do something, I could be more understanding.

I find the implications of those views atrocious, not the fact that they are different than the ones I hold.
Ore_Ele
Posts: 25,980
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5/21/2013 8:33:18 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 5/21/2013 8:25:49 PM, ConservativeAmerican wrote:
At 5/21/2013 8:24:23 PM, Ore_Ele wrote:
At 5/21/2013 8:21:30 PM, dylancatlow wrote:
At 5/21/2013 8:19:29 PM, Ore_Ele wrote:
At 5/21/2013 8:16:24 PM, dylancatlow wrote:
At 5/21/2013 3:29:44 PM, ConservativePolitico wrote:
The quote means you shouldn't be demanding government welfare and help all the time, you should be a patriotic citizen who works to better the country outside of government help.

That's exactly what it means and that's exactly why I find it atrocious.

Do you find it atrocious because of the word "should" or because it focuses on a form of collective?

The latter.

Then I am sorry that you find it atrocious that people have different views than you.

I don't think he meant he finds the person who said that as atrocious, but the idea in itself, so your point here really is deceptive, because it is far more likely he was claiming the idea was atrocious, not the person who said it.

If your issue was the implication of a moral obligation to do something, I could be more understanding.

Perhaps it is me. I believe that people are their ideas and actions. That is what defines who we are. Perhaps it is a just that online, we like to exaggerate and hyperbolize (not a word, I know), and so he doesn't really believe that simply believe in a collective concept is atrocious, but that he merely disagrees with it and wants to exaggerate and make his view extreme in order to make them stand out and get noticed.
"Wanting Red Rhino Pill to have gender"
dylancatlow
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5/21/2013 8:34:21 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
"If your issue was the implication of a moral obligation to do something"

Sorry for any confusion; my issue is with that. I find it atrocious that he is glorifying collectivism.
ConservativeAmerican
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5/21/2013 8:36:05 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 5/21/2013 8:27:28 PM, Skepsikyma wrote:
Hate this quote with a burning passion, because it suggests the the individual should be viewed as secondary to the collective, when really it's the other way around. Plus there's the overall gag factor that my cynicism and general misanthropy tend to induce.

+1
ConservativeAmerican
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5/21/2013 8:37:55 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 5/21/2013 8:33:18 PM, Ore_Ele wrote:
At 5/21/2013 8:25:49 PM, ConservativeAmerican wrote:
At 5/21/2013 8:24:23 PM, Ore_Ele wrote:
At 5/21/2013 8:21:30 PM, dylancatlow wrote:
At 5/21/2013 8:19:29 PM, Ore_Ele wrote:
At 5/21/2013 8:16:24 PM, dylancatlow wrote:
At 5/21/2013 3:29:44 PM, ConservativePolitico wrote:
The quote means you shouldn't be demanding government welfare and help all the time, you should be a patriotic citizen who works to better the country outside of government help.

That's exactly what it means and that's exactly why I find it atrocious.

Do you find it atrocious because of the word "should" or because it focuses on a form of collective?

The latter.

Then I am sorry that you find it atrocious that people have different views than you.

I don't think he meant he finds the person who said that as atrocious, but the idea in itself, so your point here really is deceptive, because it is far more likely he was claiming the idea was atrocious, not the person who said it.

If your issue was the implication of a moral obligation to do something, I could be more understanding.

Perhaps it is me. I believe that people are their ideas and actions. That is what defines who we are. Perhaps it is a just that online, we like to exaggerate and hyperbolize (not a word, I know), and so he doesn't really believe that simply believe in a collective concept is atrocious, but that he merely disagrees with it and wants to exaggerate and make his view extreme in order to make them stand out and get noticed.

No, feelings induce certain words, and the more passionate you are, the more passionate you are going to speak about your views. Passion is not a bad thing if it's still mixed with logic, in this case I think it is.
Ore_Ele
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5/21/2013 8:39:57 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 5/21/2013 8:34:21 PM, dylancatlow wrote:
"If your issue was the implication of a moral obligation to do something"

Sorry for any confusion; my issue is with that. I find it atrocious that he is glorifying collectivism.

I can fully understand a belief that collectivism is ineffective (though I do not hold that same belief) or that it is ethically going a wrong direction (if perhaps you believe that the individual is of the highest order). But that is a far cry to believe that it is something so evil that supporting it, or encouraging others to support it is some kind of great evil that is going to lay waste to the world.

I'm probably one of the most collectivist members on this site, yet I don't hold anything close to the views that anarchist or libertarian individualistic views are even the slightest bit evil.
"Wanting Red Rhino Pill to have gender"
dylancatlow
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5/21/2013 8:41:00 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
"and so he doesn't really believe that simply believe in a collective concept is atrocious, but that he merely disagrees with it and wants to exaggerate and make his view extreme in order to make them stand out and get noticed."

It's inconceivable that an Objectivist would find this quote atrocious?
dylancatlow
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5/21/2013 8:42:31 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
" But that is a far cry to believe that it is something so evil that supporting it, or encouraging others to support it is some kind of great evil that is going to lay waste to the world."

How did you get this out of 'atrocious.' My God.