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Obama and the IRS

ConservativePolitico
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5/31/2013 10:53:51 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 5/30/2013 12:59:51 PM, BigSky wrote:
Did he know about it and not do anything? Or worse, was he a part of it?
Your thoughts?

Considering the head of the IRS visited the White House over 150 times while his predecessor described the IRS as "Siberia" because he was so far away from President Bush, yes I think Obama was involved.

The head of the IRS wasn't at the White House every other week to discuss fashion tips. Especially since Hillary Clinton only logged 50 public visits. This guy visited the White House entirely too much.
v3nesl
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5/31/2013 12:24:59 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 5/30/2013 12:59:51 PM, BigSky wrote:
Did he know about it and not do anything? Or worse, was he a part of it?
Your thoughts?

I think the POTUS oversaw the whole thing. The reason I think that is because of that "True the Vote" lady who was not only harassed by the IRS, but by FBI, ATF, and OSHA. I don't see how multiple agencies could be involved without coordination from the top.
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innomen
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5/31/2013 3:37:31 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
It was Obama himself who said, when speaking to a large crowd of Latinos, "Punish your enemies." This is his desire and this is what has been carried out on his behalf.
darkkermit
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5/31/2013 4:19:28 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
Well Obama might not have been part of it, but he didn't do squat to hold the IRS accountable for any of its actions. Nobody was fired from the act except for one guy who was going to retire anyways. The women who was part of the main scandal got something like a ~$140,000 bonus and is going to be promoted to handle compliance with Obamacare regulation
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Ore_Ele
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5/31/2013 10:48:27 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 5/31/2013 4:19:28 PM, darkkermit wrote:
Well Obama might not have been part of it, but he didn't do squat to hold the IRS accountable for any of its actions. Nobody was fired from the act except for one guy who was going to retire anyways. The women who was part of the main scandal got something like a ~$140,000 bonus and is going to be promoted to handle compliance with Obamacare regulation

Actually, three people at the top of the IRS have been essentially forced out.

Steven Miller (IRS Commissioner), I had not heard anything about him retiring, since he just got the job in 2012.
Joseph Grant (Commissioner of tax exempt and government status) retired (or will in a few days).
Lois Lerner (director of exempt organizations) has been placed on administrative leave pending an investigation.

It should also be noted that the previous IRS Commissioner (until 2012) was Douglas Shulman, and he was appointed by Bush. He was not some Obama appointment picked out to target conservatives.
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royalpaladin
Posts: 22,357
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6/1/2013 12:01:50 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 5/31/2013 10:48:27 PM, Ore_Ele wrote:
At 5/31/2013 4:19:28 PM, darkkermit wrote:
Well Obama might not have been part of it, but he didn't do squat to hold the IRS accountable for any of its actions. Nobody was fired from the act except for one guy who was going to retire anyways. The women who was part of the main scandal got something like a ~$140,000 bonus and is going to be promoted to handle compliance with Obamacare regulation

Actually, three people at the top of the IRS have been essentially forced out.

Steven Miller (IRS Commissioner), I had not heard anything about him retiring, since he just got the job in 2012.
Joseph Grant (Commissioner of tax exempt and government status) retired (or will in a few days).
Lois Lerner (director of exempt organizations) has been placed on administrative leave pending an investigation.

It should also be noted that the previous IRS Commissioner (until 2012) was Douglas Shulman, and he was appointed by Bush. He was not some Obama appointment picked out to target conservatives.

Stop using facts! It's unfair to conservatives!
royalpaladin
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6/1/2013 12:02:15 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 5/31/2013 3:37:31 PM, innomen wrote:
It was Obama himself who said, when speaking to a large crowd of Latinos, "Punish your enemies." This is his desire and this is what has been carried out on his behalf.

Is there a problem with this?
ConservativeAmerican
Posts: 1,676
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6/1/2013 10:30:54 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 6/1/2013 12:02:15 AM, royalpaladin wrote:
At 5/31/2013 3:37:31 PM, innomen wrote:
It was Obama himself who said, when speaking to a large crowd of Latinos, "Punish your enemies." This is his desire and this is what has been carried out on his behalf.

Is there a problem with this?

Yes, punishing your enemies is petty. You should not mobilize a group of people and put their energy in to punishing the people who didn't agree with them, you should mobilize them to promote their own group of people or themselves and not be detrimental towards another group.
Ore_Ele
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6/2/2013 3:58:22 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 6/1/2013 10:30:54 PM, ConservativeAmerican wrote:
At 6/1/2013 12:02:15 AM, royalpaladin wrote:
At 5/31/2013 3:37:31 PM, innomen wrote:
It was Obama himself who said, when speaking to a large crowd of Latinos, "Punish your enemies." This is his desire and this is what has been carried out on his behalf.

Is there a problem with this?

Yes, punishing your enemies is petty. You should not mobilize a group of people and put their energy in to punishing the people who didn't agree with them, you should mobilize them to promote their own group of people or themselves and not be detrimental towards another group.

Punishing simply because they are your enemies, sure. But if they've done something punishable, then they ought be punished, be they enemies or friends.
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v3nesl
Posts: 4,480
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6/3/2013 9:43:12 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 6/1/2013 12:01:50 AM, royalpaladin wrote:
At 5/31/2013 10:48:27 PM, Ore_Ele wrote:
At 5/31/2013 4:19:28 PM, darkkermit wrote:
Well Obama might not have been part of it, but he didn't do squat to hold the IRS accountable for any of its actions. Nobody was fired from the act except for one guy who was going to retire anyways. The women who was part of the main scandal got something like a ~$140,000 bonus and is going to be promoted to handle compliance with Obamacare regulation

Actually, three people at the top of the IRS have been essentially forced out.

Steven Miller (IRS Commissioner), I had not heard anything about him retiring, since he just got the job in 2012.
Joseph Grant (Commissioner of tax exempt and government status) retired (or will in a few days).
Lois Lerner (director of exempt organizations) has been placed on administrative leave pending an investigation.

It should also be noted that the previous IRS Commissioner (until 2012) was Douglas Shulman, and he was appointed by Bush. He was not some Obama appointment picked out to target conservatives.

Stop using facts! It's unfair to conservatives!

Dakkermit mentioned all this in his post.

Huckabee suggested another bit of evidence this weekend: The gestapo raid against Gibson guitar some months ago, allegedly related to exotic woods used in guitar manufacture (and yes, it was a gestapo raid, that's no tin hat exaggeration). Turns out the Gibson guy had contributed to Republicans, so the raid probably was retaliation.

So, come on guys, there's no way all these different agencies could be involved in punishing political enemies without Obama coordinating it. He might end up the first POTUS to go to jail before this is all over. At some point somebody's going to rat him out in exchange for immunity.
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v3nesl
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6/3/2013 9:51:38 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 6/3/2013 9:43:12 AM, v3nesl wrote:
...
He might end up the first POTUS to go to jail before this is all over. At some point somebody's going to rat him out in exchange for immunity.

And no, btw, while he "might" go to jail, there would be the mother of all rioting around the country. The first black president can't go to jail. So what's going to happen, I dunno, but this guy is a mobster. We've never had anything quite like this before.
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drhead
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6/3/2013 10:56:47 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
Now, here's my question: Should the IRS have ignored these groups because they were conservative? A lot of them were indeed breaking the rules. Should the IRS have ignored them out of fear that their actions would have been labeled as retaliatory?
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ConservativeAmerican
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6/3/2013 11:34:27 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 6/2/2013 3:58:22 PM, Ore_Ele wrote:
At 6/1/2013 10:30:54 PM, ConservativeAmerican wrote:
At 6/1/2013 12:02:15 AM, royalpaladin wrote:
At 5/31/2013 3:37:31 PM, innomen wrote:
It was Obama himself who said, when speaking to a large crowd of Latinos, "Punish your enemies." This is his desire and this is what has been carried out on his behalf.

Is there a problem with this?

Yes, punishing your enemies is petty. You should not mobilize a group of people and put their energy in to punishing the people who didn't agree with them, you should mobilize them to promote their own group of people or themselves and not be detrimental towards another group.

Punishing simply because they are your enemies, sure. But if they've done something punishable, then they ought be punished, be they enemies or friends.

That is not the message I got, the message I got was that you should punish your enemies simply because they are your ideological enemies.
v3nesl
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6/3/2013 11:35:47 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 6/3/2013 10:56:47 AM, drhead wrote:
Now, here's my question: Should the IRS have ignored these groups because they were conservative? A lot of them were indeed breaking the rules. Should the IRS have ignored them out of fear that their actions would have been labeled as retaliatory?

I think they would have tried this explanation if there was any merit to it.

Yeah, at first I thought it might have been a bit of rope-a-dope, let my side get all frothy and then claim they were just doing their job, but I'd say that's off the table at this point. For one thing, the documentation is there, all the inappropriate questions that were asked of these people. Civil suits against the IRS! I think the Chinese curse has certainly come to America: We live in interesting times.
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ConservativeAmerican
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6/3/2013 11:36:41 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 6/3/2013 10:56:47 AM, drhead wrote:
Now, here's my question: Should the IRS have ignored these groups because they were conservative? A lot of them were indeed breaking the rules. Should the IRS have ignored them out of fear that their actions would have been labeled as retaliatory?

Your reasoning isn't logical.

They should only persecute a group if they have evidence that they did something wrong, they shouldn't persecute a group for their beliefs or because there was one rotten egg in said group.
Citrakayah
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6/3/2013 2:41:28 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 6/3/2013 9:43:12 AM, v3nesl wrote:
At 6/1/2013 12:01:50 AM, royalpaladin wrote:
At 5/31/2013 10:48:27 PM, Ore_Ele wrote:
At 5/31/2013 4:19:28 PM, darkkermit wrote:
Well Obama might not have been part of it, but he didn't do squat to hold the IRS accountable for any of its actions. Nobody was fired from the act except for one guy who was going to retire anyways. The women who was part of the main scandal got something like a ~$140,000 bonus and is going to be promoted to handle compliance with Obamacare regulation

Actually, three people at the top of the IRS have been essentially forced out.

Steven Miller (IRS Commissioner), I had not heard anything about him retiring, since he just got the job in 2012.
Joseph Grant (Commissioner of tax exempt and government status) retired (or will in a few days).
Lois Lerner (director of exempt organizations) has been placed on administrative leave pending an investigation.

It should also be noted that the previous IRS Commissioner (until 2012) was Douglas Shulman, and he was appointed by Bush. He was not some Obama appointment picked out to target conservatives.

Stop using facts! It's unfair to conservatives!

Dakkermit mentioned all this in his post.

Huckabee suggested another bit of evidence this weekend: The gestapo raid against Gibson guitar some months ago, allegedly related to exotic woods used in guitar manufacture (and yes, it was a gestapo raid, that's no tin hat exaggeration). Turns out the Gibson guy had contributed to Republicans, so the raid probably was retaliation.

So, come on guys, there's no way all these different agencies could be involved in punishing political enemies without Obama coordinating it. He might end up the first POTUS to go to jail before this is all over. At some point somebody's going to rat him out in exchange for immunity.

That argument is rather weak, given that they were raided in 2009, and did violate the Lacey Act (they admitted it in court) (http://en.wikipedia.org...).

The Commissioner only visited Obama eleven times (http://www.theatlantic.com...).
v3nesl
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6/4/2013 9:38:53 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 6/3/2013 2:41:28 PM, Citrakayah wrote:
At 6/3/2013 9:43:12 AM, v3nesl wrote:
At 6/1/2013 12:01:50 AM, royalpaladin wrote:
At 5/31/2013 10:48:27 PM, Ore_Ele wrote:
At 5/31/2013 4:19:28 PM, darkkermit wrote:
Well Obama might not have been part of it, but he didn't do squat to hold the IRS accountable for any of its actions. Nobody was fired from the act except for one guy who was going to retire anyways. The women who was part of the main scandal got something like a ~$140,000 bonus and is going to be promoted to handle compliance with Obamacare regulation

Actually, three people at the top of the IRS have been essentially forced out.

Steven Miller (IRS Commissioner), I had not heard anything about him retiring, since he just got the job in 2012.
Joseph Grant (Commissioner of tax exempt and government status) retired (or will in a few days).
Lois Lerner (director of exempt organizations) has been placed on administrative leave pending an investigation.

It should also be noted that the previous IRS Commissioner (until 2012) was Douglas Shulman, and he was appointed by Bush. He was not some Obama appointment picked out to target conservatives.

Stop using facts! It's unfair to conservatives!

Dakkermit mentioned all this in his post.

Huckabee suggested another bit of evidence this weekend: The gestapo raid against Gibson guitar some months ago, allegedly related to exotic woods used in guitar manufacture (and yes, it was a gestapo raid, that's no tin hat exaggeration). Turns out the Gibson guy had contributed to Republicans, so the raid probably was retaliation.

So, come on guys, there's no way all these different agencies could be involved in punishing political enemies without Obama coordinating it. He might end up the first POTUS to go to jail before this is all over. At some point somebody's going to rat him out in exchange for immunity.

That argument is rather weak, given that they were raided in 2009, and did violate the Lacey Act (they admitted it in court) (http://en.wikipedia.org...).


Two things:
1) Is Gibson the only company buying exotic woods from iffy countries? No, of course not, but only they got raided. Same as with the tea party issue, why are only Obama's political enemies being targeted?
2) Did they need to be raided by guys with machine guns? What were they going to do, turn an amp up to eleven?

The Commissioner only visited Obama eleven times (http://www.theatlantic.com...).

This proves nothing, one way or another. Obviously this, if it was done, was all done off-the-record, we're not going to know anything unless somebody can be convinced to rat the president out.

I can't know if the president is a crook, I don't know enough about the upper workings of Washington. But for America it's almost worse if it wasn't the President coordinating this, because in that case how can we clean this up? I don't think people are stopping to think that without the IRS, the whole contemporary system of American government is toast. We have something like 47% getting checks from the Treasury - without the IRS, and the relatively willing cooperation of taxpayers... well, it's just unthinkable, even though, as a conservative, I despise the whole redistribution model. Whoever did this - it's kind like our government having a stroke or a heart attack. It could be way more serious than anybody realizes at this point.
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Citrakayah
Posts: 1,500
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6/4/2013 12:42:24 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 6/4/2013 9:38:53 AM, v3nesl wrote:
At 6/3/2013 2:41:28 PM, Citrakayah wrote:
At 6/3/2013 9:43:12 AM, v3nesl wrote:
At 6/1/2013 12:01:50 AM, royalpaladin wrote:
At 5/31/2013 10:48:27 PM, Ore_Ele wrote:
At 5/31/2013 4:19:28 PM, darkkermit wrote:
Well Obama might not have been part of it, but he didn't do squat to hold the IRS accountable for any of its actions. Nobody was fired from the act except for one guy who was going to retire anyways. The women who was part of the main scandal got something like a ~$140,000 bonus and is going to be promoted to handle compliance with Obamacare regulation

Actually, three people at the top of the IRS have been essentially forced out.

Steven Miller (IRS Commissioner), I had not heard anything about him retiring, since he just got the job in 2012.
Joseph Grant (Commissioner of tax exempt and government status) retired (or will in a few days).
Lois Lerner (director of exempt organizations) has been placed on administrative leave pending an investigation.

It should also be noted that the previous IRS Commissioner (until 2012) was Douglas Shulman, and he was appointed by Bush. He was not some Obama appointment picked out to target conservatives.

Stop using facts! It's unfair to conservatives!

Dakkermit mentioned all this in his post.

Huckabee suggested another bit of evidence this weekend: The gestapo raid against Gibson guitar some months ago, allegedly related to exotic woods used in guitar manufacture (and yes, it was a gestapo raid, that's no tin hat exaggeration). Turns out the Gibson guy had contributed to Republicans, so the raid probably was retaliation.

So, come on guys, there's no way all these different agencies could be involved in punishing political enemies without Obama coordinating it. He might end up the first POTUS to go to jail before this is all over. At some point somebody's going to rat him out in exchange for immunity.

That argument is rather weak, given that they were raided in 2009, and did violate the Lacey Act (they admitted it in court) (http://en.wikipedia.org...).


Two things:
1) Is Gibson the only company buying exotic woods from iffy countries? No, of course not, but only they got raided. Same as with the tea party issue, why are only Obama's political enemies being targeted?

They had evidence against them? They can only do a certain number of raids and someone chose Gibson, which could be for reasons ranging from wanting to do things in a certain order to randomly choosing to it being more convenient because forces were nearby. And how do you know other places weren't raided?

2) Did they need to be raided by guys with machine guns? What were they going to do, turn an amp up to eleven?

Generally when you raid people who are selling illegal animal or plant parts, you bring along machine guns. I would guess it would be standard procedure.

The Commissioner only visited Obama eleven times (http://www.theatlantic.com...).

This proves nothing, one way or another. Obviously this, if it was done, was all done off-the-record, we're not going to know anything unless somebody can be convinced to rat the president out.

It does prove that there is no evidence.

I can't know if the president is a crook, I don't know enough about the upper workings of Washington. But for America it's almost worse if it wasn't the President coordinating this, because in that case how can we clean this up?

Deal with the people who actually were responsible.
Ore_Ele
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6/4/2013 9:14:54 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 6/3/2013 10:56:47 AM, drhead wrote:
Now, here's my question: Should the IRS have ignored these groups because they were conservative? A lot of them were indeed breaking the rules. Should the IRS have ignored them out of fear that their actions would have been labeled as retaliatory?

No, The IRS should have come down on ALL suspected fraudulent 501KI (or whatever the subgroup was). All of them need to be investigated, to verify accuracy. Of course, in the cases where there are not enough funds to investigate all of them, it ought to be done completely randomly.
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Ore_Ele
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6/4/2013 9:21:57 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 6/4/2013 9:38:53 AM, v3nesl wrote:
At 6/3/2013 2:41:28 PM, Citrakayah wrote:
At 6/3/2013 9:43:12 AM, v3nesl wrote:
At 6/1/2013 12:01:50 AM, royalpaladin wrote:
At 5/31/2013 10:48:27 PM, Ore_Ele wrote:
At 5/31/2013 4:19:28 PM, darkkermit wrote:
Well Obama might not have been part of it, but he didn't do squat to hold the IRS accountable for any of its actions. Nobody was fired from the act except for one guy who was going to retire anyways. The women who was part of the main scandal got something like a ~$140,000 bonus and is going to be promoted to handle compliance with Obamacare regulation

Actually, three people at the top of the IRS have been essentially forced out.

Steven Miller (IRS Commissioner), I had not heard anything about him retiring, since he just got the job in 2012.
Joseph Grant (Commissioner of tax exempt and government status) retired (or will in a few days).
Lois Lerner (director of exempt organizations) has been placed on administrative leave pending an investigation.

It should also be noted that the previous IRS Commissioner (until 2012) was Douglas Shulman, and he was appointed by Bush. He was not some Obama appointment picked out to target conservatives.

Stop using facts! It's unfair to conservatives!

Dakkermit mentioned all this in his post.

Huckabee suggested another bit of evidence this weekend: The gestapo raid against Gibson guitar some months ago, allegedly related to exotic woods used in guitar manufacture (and yes, it was a gestapo raid, that's no tin hat exaggeration). Turns out the Gibson guy had contributed to Republicans, so the raid probably was retaliation.

So, come on guys, there's no way all these different agencies could be involved in punishing political enemies without Obama coordinating it. He might end up the first POTUS to go to jail before this is all over. At some point somebody's going to rat him out in exchange for immunity.

That argument is rather weak, given that they were raided in 2009, and did violate the Lacey Act (they admitted it in court) (http://en.wikipedia.org...).


Two things:
1) Is Gibson the only company buying exotic woods from iffy countries? No, of course not, but only they got raided. Same as with the tea party issue, why are only Obama's political enemies being targeted?
2) Did they need to be raided by guys with machine guns? What were they going to do, turn an amp up to eleven?

Do you hate Obama that much? Let's start with the most important fact. Although the raid occurred in 2009, the Justice department was gathering evidence back in 2008 when the Lacey Law was updated. Obama wasn't in office.

2nd, this was also during the time when Obama was actually trying to reach across the isle, and pissing off liberals because they wanted him to shove things down republican's throats.


The Commissioner only visited Obama eleven times (http://www.theatlantic.com...).

This proves nothing, one way or another. Obviously this, if it was done, was all done off-the-record, we're not going to know anything unless somebody can be convinced to rat the president out.

I can't know if the president is a crook, I don't know enough about the upper workings of Washington. But for America it's almost worse if it wasn't the President coordinating this, because in that case how can we clean this up? I don't think people are stopping to think that without the IRS, the whole contemporary system of American government is toast. We have something like 47% getting checks from the Treasury - without the IRS, and the relatively willing cooperation of taxpayers... well, it's just unthinkable, even though, as a conservative, I despise the whole redistribution model. Whoever did this - it's kind like our government having a stroke or a heart attack. It could be way more serious than anybody realizes at this point.
"Wanting Red Rhino Pill to have gender"
v3nesl
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6/5/2013 7:28:13 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 6/4/2013 9:21:57 PM, Ore_Ele wrote:
...

Do you hate Obama that much? Let's start with the most important fact. Although the raid occurred in 2009, the Justice department was gathering evidence back in 2008 when the Lacey Law was updated. Obama wasn't in office.

Pretty much irrelevant to my two points: They only went after the GOP donor, and they went in with as much firepower as they used on bin Laden. Hey, it's just one datum. It means little on it's own, but there is a whole lot of smoke billowing around right now.


2nd, this was also during the time when Obama was actually trying to reach across the isle, and pissing off liberals because they wanted him to shove things down republican's throats.



I surely don't remember Obama ever reaching across the aisle. I remember the rhetoric, of course, but he never reached across the aisle. Come on, be real here.

However, I should mention that I heard last night a theory from somebody with connections (I forget who) that this IRS stuff may have been run by several dem senators, so maybe not the president directly.
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inferno
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6/5/2013 8:49:19 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 5/30/2013 12:59:51 PM, BigSky wrote:
Did he know about it and not do anything? Or worse, was he a part of it?
Your thoughts?

Only an idiot would think that Obama was part of this scandal.
His approval ratings have not been affected by this nonsense at all. So the answer is no. =)
inferno
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6/5/2013 8:50:55 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 6/3/2013 9:51:38 AM, v3nesl wrote:
At 6/3/2013 9:43:12 AM, v3nesl wrote:
...
He might end up the first POTUS to go to jail before this is all over. At some point somebody's going to rat him out in exchange for immunity.

And no, btw, while he "might" go to jail, there would be the mother of all rioting around the country. The first black president can't go to jail. So what's going to happen, I dunno, but this guy is a mobster. We've never had anything quite like this before.

I have an even better idea. How about we use more common sense when talking about Government issues here.
The bottom line is that they are all pieces of trash and is not to be trusted.