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"Radical Right"

DanT
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6/3/2013 1:48:57 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
Isn't that an Oxymoron??? By definition, a radical is left wing.
Radicalism is synonymous with progressivism; radicals promote reform.
"Chemical weapons are no different than any other types of weapons."~Lordknukle
RyuuKyuzo
Posts: 3,074
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6/3/2013 2:07:56 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 6/3/2013 1:48:57 PM, DanT wrote:
Isn't that an Oxymoron??? By definition, a radical is left wing.
Radicalism is synonymous with progressivism; radicals promote reform.

I see what you're saying, but I think you've said it poorly here.

If I understand you, you're saying right wing politics are traditionalist, and therefore cannot be considered radical.

The thing is, you can be radical in more ways that just ideologically. You can be radical in your methods of achieving your traditionalist goals, such as radical right-wing Islamist terrorists. Even though their views are traditionalist, their methods are radical (extreme). Also, you might be advocating for traditionalist policies that no longer exist, in which case you're not advocating the status-quo, but rather reform towards a more conservative status-quo.

It's all relative, really.
If you're reading this, you're awesome and you should feel awesome.
innomen
Posts: 10,052
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6/3/2013 2:10:55 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 6/3/2013 1:48:57 PM, DanT wrote:
Isn't that an Oxymoron??? By definition, a radical is left wing.
Radicalism is synonymous with progressivism; radicals promote reform.

Yes, it's like saying radical conservative - it just doesn't work, but it is the lefts effort to marginalize those on the right who are active. It works by the way, they are masters at demonizing their opposition. Generally speaking, the ones that they spend the most time demonizing are the ones who are the biggest threat.
000ike
Posts: 11,196
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6/3/2013 2:15:19 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 6/3/2013 2:10:55 PM, innomen wrote:
At 6/3/2013 1:48:57 PM, DanT wrote:
Isn't that an Oxymoron??? By definition, a radical is left wing.
Radicalism is synonymous with progressivism; radicals promote reform.

Yes, it's like saying radical conservative - it just doesn't work, but it is the lefts effort to marginalize those on the right who are active. It works by the way, they are masters at demonizing their opposition. Generally speaking, the ones that they spend the most time demonizing are the ones who are the biggest threat.


I can't tell if you're trying to be ironic, or if you really don't see what's horrendously hypocritical about what you just said.
"A stupid despot may constrain his slaves with iron chains; but a true politician binds them even more strongly with the chain of their own ideas" - Michel Foucault
Citrakayah
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6/3/2013 2:17:31 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 6/3/2013 1:48:57 PM, DanT wrote:
Isn't that an Oxymoron??? By definition, a radical is left wing.
Radicalism is synonymous with progressivism; radicals promote reform.

No, it's not. Radical is meant as an adjective in a way similar to 'far', except someone who is radical right is farther to the right than someone who is far right in many cases. Or they accomplish their goals by blowing stuff up.
000ike
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6/3/2013 2:18:56 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
A radical is someone who deviates from the standard of thought and behavior to an extreme degree. A partisan radical is different from a political radical (since you seem to be confusing the two). And also, even IF you meant political radical, you realize that there are radicals to the right of the center... so there's no contradiction in the term "radical right".
"A stupid despot may constrain his slaves with iron chains; but a true politician binds them even more strongly with the chain of their own ideas" - Michel Foucault
dylancatlow
Posts: 12,244
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6/3/2013 3:23:04 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
You define 'radical' as something which does not conform to the old status quo, when in reality, it's only applicable to the present. Conservatives want to uphold a certain status quo, not just any old one. They aren't happy with the current state of things, for instance. Your definition of conservative/right is incomplete and will produce erroneous conclusions.
DetectableNinja
Posts: 6,043
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6/3/2013 6:56:20 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
DanT is DanTing again.
Think'st thou heaven is such a glorious thing?
I tell thee, 'tis not half so fair as thou
Or any man that breathes on earth.

- Christopher Marlowe, Doctor Faustus
Wnope
Posts: 6,924
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6/3/2013 7:03:21 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
You can bomb an abortion clinic and not be radical.....but if you're for gay marriage you're a f*cking nutjob....

I can only assume that people who want the government to function entirely under Christian morality aren't radicals. Putting gays to death in Uganda? What's radical about that?

But if you want a government to function entirely under ISLAMIC morality than HOLY SH!T IT'S A RADICAL!
darkkermit
Posts: 11,204
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6/3/2013 7:05:01 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 6/3/2013 1:48:57 PM, DanT wrote:
Isn't that an Oxymoron??? By definition, a radical is left wing.
Radicalism is synonymous with progressivism; radicals promote reform.

My signature says it all.
Open borders debate:
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YYW
Posts: 36,282
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6/3/2013 7:10:32 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 6/3/2013 1:48:57 PM, DanT wrote:
Isn't that an Oxymoron??? By definition, a radical is left wing.
Radicalism is synonymous with progressivism; radicals promote reform.

Radical conservatism would be an oxymoron by the strictest definition, but because the political right may but does not necessarily imply conservatism the term "radical right" is not necessarily oxymoronic. Radicalism is not synonymous with progressive, inasmuch as progressive may be radical, but a radical is not necessarily progressive. Radicals furthermore do not have to promote "reform" but only advocate some deviation from the present status quo. What makes a person a radical is advocating for some change which is recognized as a substantial or excessive deviation from the status quo.
Tsar of DDO
Wnope
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6/3/2013 7:17:45 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 6/3/2013 2:10:55 PM, innomen wrote:
At 6/3/2013 1:48:57 PM, DanT wrote:
Isn't that an Oxymoron??? By definition, a radical is left wing.
Radicalism is synonymous with progressivism; radicals promote reform.

Yes, it's like saying radical conservative - it just doesn't work, but it is the lefts effort to marginalize those on the right who are active. It works by the way, they are masters at demonizing their opposition. Generally speaking, the ones that they spend the most time demonizing are the ones who are the biggest threat.

Huh, can't remember the last time someone said "those liberals tried to tie me to a fence and beat me to death for being gay."

My best friend grew up gay in Colorado. He would have been physically assaulted and cast out of his community if he had made it known he was gay.

Heck, they had a hard enough time accepting such a cool guy could also be a Jew.

We still have conservatives arguing for FORCED SEGREGATION. What kind of human being does not consider that radical?

I'm glad to hear there are gay people who grew up in communities which were so accepting that they considered liberals to be the most dangerous thing to their health.

But I've never heard of a conservative fearing for his life in a liberal community because he is a conservative or straight. I've never heard of a liberal "lynch mob" leading to the death of local Republicans because they have particular beliefs about who can have sex with who.
YYW
Posts: 36,282
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6/3/2013 7:25:23 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 6/3/2013 2:10:55 PM, innomen wrote:
At 6/3/2013 1:48:57 PM, DanT wrote:
Isn't that an Oxymoron??? By definition, a radical is left wing.
Radicalism is synonymous with progressivism; radicals promote reform.

Yes, it's like saying radical conservative - it just doesn't work, but it is the lefts effort to marginalize those on the right who are active.

The political right may but does not necessarily indicate political conservatism. So, no... radical right =/= radical conservative.
Tsar of DDO
wrichcirw
Posts: 11,196
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6/3/2013 7:30:03 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 6/3/2013 2:07:56 PM, RyuuKyuzo wrote:
At 6/3/2013 1:48:57 PM, DanT wrote:
Isn't that an Oxymoron??? By definition, a radical is left wing.
Radicalism is synonymous with progressivism; radicals promote reform.

I see what you're saying, but I think you've said it poorly here.

If I understand you, you're saying right wing politics are traditionalist, and therefore cannot be considered radical.

The thing is, you can be radical in more ways that just ideologically. You can be radical in your methods of achieving your traditionalist goals, such as radical right-wing Islamist terrorists. Even though their views are traditionalist, their methods are radical (extreme). Also, you might be advocating for traditionalist policies that no longer exist, in which case you're not advocating the status-quo, but rather reform towards a more conservative status-quo.

It's all relative, really.

This is exceptionally cogent...I'm glad to have read it.
At 8/9/2013 9:41:24 AM, wrichcirw wrote:
If you are civil with me, I will be civil to you. If you decide to bring unreasonable animosity to bear in a reasonable discussion, then what would you expect other than to get flustered?
OMGJustinBieber
Posts: 3,484
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6/3/2013 9:02:27 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 6/3/2013 7:05:01 PM, darkkermit wrote:
At 6/3/2013 1:48:57 PM, DanT wrote:
Isn't that an Oxymoron??? By definition, a radical is left wing.
Radicalism is synonymous with progressivism; radicals promote reform.

My signature says it all.

If he takes away one thing from this forum it ought to be that language isn't as rigid as he takes it to be.
slo1
Posts: 4,318
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6/3/2013 9:03:01 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
http://www.merriam-webster.com...

a : very different from the usual or traditional : extreme
b : favoring extreme changes in existing views, habits, conditions, or institutions
c : associated with political views, practices, and policies of extreme change
d : advocating extreme measures to retain or restore a political state of affairs <the radical right>


Merriam Webster's partial definition above. It is arguably that the far right is so far removed from mainstream that they are now radical as it would be an extreme change. Also, see d above, using extreme measures (non traditional) is also a form of radicalization.

Fundamentally, not using radical to describe the far right would be a greater error than saying it should not be used.

Interestingly the word stems from latin word of "root". Free radicals in chemistry are very reactive with other matter. The "root" symbol in math is called the radical (IE: symbol for squared root, nth root)
A radical mastectomy would not only remove breast tissue, but underlining muscle, which probably implies more of the extreme measures definition than the root definition.

It is a word that has much meaning in many areas.
DanT
Posts: 5,693
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6/4/2013 2:08:20 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 6/3/2013 2:07:56 PM, RyuuKyuzo wrote:
At 6/3/2013 1:48:57 PM, DanT wrote:
Isn't that an Oxymoron??? By definition, a radical is left wing.
Radicalism is synonymous with progressivism; radicals promote reform.

I see what you're saying, but I think you've said it poorly here.

If I understand you, you're saying right wing politics are traditionalist, and therefore cannot be considered radical.

The thing is, you can be radical in more ways that just ideologically. You can be radical in your methods of achieving your traditionalist goals, such as radical right-wing Islamist terrorists. Even though their views are traditionalist, their methods are radical (extreme). Also, you might be advocating for traditionalist policies that no longer exist, in which case you're not advocating the status-quo, but rather reform towards a more conservative status-quo.

It's all relative, really.

Than technically its not right wing, it is third way or centrist, because it combines elements of both left wing and right wing politics.
"Chemical weapons are no different than any other types of weapons."~Lordknukle
DanT
Posts: 5,693
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6/4/2013 2:16:21 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 6/3/2013 2:17:31 PM, Citrakayah wrote:
At 6/3/2013 1:48:57 PM, DanT wrote:
Isn't that an Oxymoron??? By definition, a radical is left wing.
Radicalism is synonymous with progressivism; radicals promote reform.

No, it's not. Radical is meant as an adjective in a way similar to 'far', except someone who is radical right is farther to the right than someone who is far right in many cases. Or they accomplish their goals by blowing stuff up.

"Radical
adjective
advocating or based on thorough or complete political or social reform; representing or supporting an extreme section of a political party:
a radical American activist"
http://oxforddictionaries.com...

"(adj) radical (markedly new or introducing revolutionary change) 'radical political views'"
http://wordnetweb.princeton.edu...
"Chemical weapons are no different than any other types of weapons."~Lordknukle
DanT
Posts: 5,693
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6/4/2013 2:27:07 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 6/3/2013 7:05:01 PM, darkkermit wrote:
At 6/3/2013 1:48:57 PM, DanT wrote:
Isn't that an Oxymoron??? By definition, a radical is left wing.
Radicalism is synonymous with progressivism; radicals promote reform.

My signature says it all.

Your signature is not only slanderous lies, but it is irrelevant to this topic. I didn't make an argument, I posed a question. I asked "Isn't [the term 'Radical Right'] an Oxymoron?"

(n) oxymoron (conjoining contradictory terms (as in `deafening silence'))
http://wordnetweb.princeton.edu...

The prefix "Oxy-" means "sharp" or "keen", while "moron" is an obsolete term for someone who is "slow" or "borderline retarded". The term Oxymoron is itself an oxymoron.
"Chemical weapons are no different than any other types of weapons."~Lordknukle
DanT
Posts: 5,693
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6/4/2013 2:35:30 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 6/3/2013 2:07:56 PM, RyuuKyuzo wrote:
At 6/3/2013 1:48:57 PM, DanT wrote:
Isn't that an Oxymoron??? By definition, a radical is left wing.
Radicalism is synonymous with progressivism; radicals promote reform.

I see what you're saying, but I think you've said it poorly here.

If I understand you, you're saying right wing politics are traditionalist, and therefore cannot be considered radical.

The thing is, you can be radical in more ways that just ideologically. You can be radical in your methods of achieving your traditionalist goals, such as radical right-wing Islamist terrorists. Even though their views are traditionalist, their methods are radical (extreme). Also, you might be advocating for traditionalist policies that no longer exist, in which case you're not advocating the status-quo, but rather reform towards a more conservative status-quo.

It's all relative, really.

Makes sense. But technically they would not be right wing, they would be either left wing or third way. I guess the term may have developed to differentiate between progressively motivated reform and traditionally motivated reform.
"Chemical weapons are no different than any other types of weapons."~Lordknukle
Khaos_Mage
Posts: 23,214
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6/4/2013 3:01:14 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 6/4/2013 2:16:21 AM, DanT wrote:
At 6/3/2013 2:17:31 PM, Citrakayah wrote:
At 6/3/2013 1:48:57 PM, DanT wrote:
Isn't that an Oxymoron??? By definition, a radical is left wing.
Radicalism is synonymous with progressivism; radicals promote reform.

No, it's not. Radical is meant as an adjective in a way similar to 'far', except someone who is radical right is farther to the right than someone who is far right in many cases. Or they accomplish their goals by blowing stuff up.

"Radical
adjective
advocating or based on thorough or complete political or social reform; representing or supporting an extreme section of a political party:
a radical American activist"
http://oxforddictionaries.com...


"(adj) radical (markedly new or introducing revolutionary change) 'radical political views'"
http://wordnetweb.princeton.edu...

How is getting rid of social security not considered radical using the underlined words?
If the "right wing" does not want to eliminate social security, how does the bolded not apply to the right-winger who does want its elimination?

PETA would be an example of the radical left, wouldn't it? Especially since the left are more likely to advocate animal rights, which they currently enjoy to an extent.
My work here is, finally, done.
innomen
Posts: 10,052
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6/4/2013 3:56:23 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 6/3/2013 7:25:23 PM, YYW wrote:
At 6/3/2013 2:10:55 PM, innomen wrote:
At 6/3/2013 1:48:57 PM, DanT wrote:
Isn't that an Oxymoron??? By definition, a radical is left wing.
Radicalism is synonymous with progressivism; radicals promote reform.

Yes, it's like saying radical conservative - it just doesn't work, but it is the lefts effort to marginalize those on the right who are active.

The political right may but does not necessarily indicate political conservatism. So, no... radical right =/= radical conservative.

Then you get into a need for clarity on what the "right" is. Radical right used to be called reactionary in political science terms.
YYW
Posts: 36,282
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6/4/2013 4:04:02 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 6/4/2013 3:56:23 AM, innomen wrote:
At 6/3/2013 7:25:23 PM, YYW wrote:
At 6/3/2013 2:10:55 PM, innomen wrote:
At 6/3/2013 1:48:57 PM, DanT wrote:
Isn't that an Oxymoron??? By definition, a radical is left wing.
Radicalism is synonymous with progressivism; radicals promote reform.

Yes, it's like saying radical conservative - it just doesn't work, but it is the lefts effort to marginalize those on the right who are active.

The political right may but does not necessarily indicate political conservatism. So, no... radical right =/= radical conservative.

Then you get into a need for clarity on what the "right" is. Radical right used to be called reactionary in political science terms.

""That viewpoint is held by contemporary sociologists, for whom 'right-wing movements' are conceptualized as 'social movements whose stated goals are to maintain structures of order, status, honor, or traditional social differences or values' as compared to left-wing movements which seek 'greater equality or political participation.' In other words, the sociological perspective sees preservationist politics as a right-wing attempt to defend privilege within the social hierarchy.""

T. Alexander Smith, Raymond Tatalovich. Cultures at war: moral conflicts in western democracies. Toronto, Canada: Broadview Press, Ltd, 2003. Pp 30.

Also:

Here is a dossier prepared by the US Department of Homeland Security on Right Wind Extremism:

These are not "conservative" ideas, mind you.

http://www.wnd.com...
Tsar of DDO
innomen
Posts: 10,052
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6/4/2013 4:34:37 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 6/4/2013 4:04:02 AM, YYW wrote:
At 6/4/2013 3:56:23 AM, innomen wrote:
At 6/3/2013 7:25:23 PM, YYW wrote:
At 6/3/2013 2:10:55 PM, innomen wrote:
At 6/3/2013 1:48:57 PM, DanT wrote:
Isn't that an Oxymoron??? By definition, a radical is left wing.
Radicalism is synonymous with progressivism; radicals promote reform.

Yes, it's like saying radical conservative - it just doesn't work, but it is the lefts effort to marginalize those on the right who are active.

The political right may but does not necessarily indicate political conservatism. So, no... radical right =/= radical conservative.

Then you get into a need for clarity on what the "right" is. Radical right used to be called reactionary in political science terms.

""That viewpoint is held by contemporary sociologists, for whom 'right-wing movements' are conceptualized as 'social movements whose stated goals are to maintain structures of order, status, honor, or traditional social differences or values' as compared to left-wing movements which seek 'greater equality or political participation.' In other words, the sociological perspective sees preservationist politics as a right-wing attempt to defend privilege within the social hierarchy.""

T. Alexander Smith, Raymond Tatalovich. Cultures at war: moral conflicts in western democracies. Toronto, Canada: Broadview Press, Ltd, 2003. Pp 30.

Also:

Here is a dossier prepared by the US Department of Homeland Security on Right Wind Extremism:

These are not "conservative" ideas, mind you.

http://www.wnd.com...


""That viewpoint is held by contemporary sociologists, for whom 'right-wing movements' are conceptualized as 'social movements whose stated goals are to maintain structures of order, status, honor, or traditional social differences or values'


The question isn't how does this differ from left wing movements, but how does this differ from a conservative movement?
Graincruncher
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6/4/2013 4:48:25 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 6/3/2013 1:48:57 PM, DanT wrote:
Isn't that an Oxymoron??? By definition, a radical is left wing.
Radicalism is synonymous with progressivism; radicals promote reform.

No, that isn't at all true. A rightwing radical wants society to move to the right - radically - just the same as a leftwing radical wants society to move to the left - radically. Not a complex concept unless you try and redefine terms. Radically.
innomen
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6/4/2013 5:25:59 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 6/4/2013 4:48:25 AM, Graincruncher wrote:
At 6/3/2013 1:48:57 PM, DanT wrote:
Isn't that an Oxymoron??? By definition, a radical is left wing.
Radicalism is synonymous with progressivism; radicals promote reform.

No, that isn't at all true. A rightwing radical wants society to move to the right - radically - just the same as a leftwing radical wants society to move to the left - radically. Not a complex concept unless you try and redefine terms. Radically.

I don't think that's accurate, a radical right would be a reactionary.
Graincruncher
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6/4/2013 5:55:14 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
...

'Radical politics' = politics that require a radical (extreme) change to the status quo. Suggesting that 'rightwing' just means 'as is now' is completely inaccurate. A radical shift to the left or right is what is supported by radical groups on each side. I mean, re-criminalising homosexuality and stopping women voting would be radically conservative - i.e. extreme shift in policy to a more 'traditional' society - and a removal of all social welfare spending would be radically rightwing.
innomen
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6/4/2013 6:10:39 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 6/4/2013 5:55:14 AM, Graincruncher wrote:
...

'Radical politics' = politics that require a radical (extreme) change to the status quo. Suggesting that 'rightwing' just means 'as is now' is completely inaccurate. A radical shift to the left or right is what is supported by radical groups on each side. I mean, re-criminalising homosexuality and stopping women voting would be radically conservative - i.e. extreme shift in policy to a more 'traditional' society - and a removal of all social welfare spending would be radically rightwing.

Again, that would be called reactionary, not radical.
Graincruncher
Posts: 2,799
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6/4/2013 6:11:58 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
Strange, since lots of people quite regularly do call it radical. As that is what radical means. What an utterly facile distinction.