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Do women really make less than men?

Khaos_Mage
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6/3/2013 3:17:29 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
I wasn't sure where to put this, so I put it here.

PLEASE BE HONEST

I have worked in multiple industries at over 40 jobs. However, I also live/worked in the suburbs and in a bluish/purple state. So, I have always had an issue with pay discrimination studies, as I have never seen it. In fact, in my experience, it seems to be the opposite, and even then, it was rare.

The reason I have issues with these studies, is I don't believe they compare apples to apples. To compare the female CEO of a company that has $2 million in revenue to the male CEO of a company that has $20 billion in revenue is not a fair comparison. It is the same job title, but it is not the same job.

Similarly, I do not believe education, work experience, company differentials (like size/structure/profit), hours demanded/expected, or productivity are factored into these studies. It seems they just take a survey and ask how much you are paid, your title, and how long you've been there.

That being said, I ask if anyone can will share their experience and circumstances where they know that a woman was paid less than a man for the same job, and it was because she was a woman (or at least, the reason offered seemed to not hold water).

Thank you, and please be objective.
My work here is, finally, done.
wrichcirw
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6/3/2013 3:30:19 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
I worked in the loan business for a short time a while back. My mentor was a man that closed two loans a month, and earned gigantic commissions off each loan. He was known as one of the most productive guys on the team.

His main competitor was a woman who typically closed 10-15 loans a month, yet grossed the same income as this man.

IMHO that is a bit discriminatory. I know there are a gigantic number of factors involved (the man worked holidays, weekends, etc...really treated his clients like royalty), but the raw numbers do indeed scream discrimination.
At 8/9/2013 9:41:24 AM, wrichcirw wrote:
If you are civil with me, I will be civil to you. If you decide to bring unreasonable animosity to bear in a reasonable discussion, then what would you expect other than to get flustered?
Khaos_Mage
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6/4/2013 12:12:50 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 6/3/2013 3:30:19 PM, wrichcirw wrote:
I worked in the loan business for a short time a while back. My mentor was a man that closed two loans a month, and earned gigantic commissions off each loan. He was known as one of the most productive guys on the team.

His main competitor was a woman who typically closed 10-15 loans a month, yet grossed the same income as this man.

IMHO that is a bit discriminatory. I know there are a gigantic number of factors involved (the man worked holidays, weekends, etc...really treated his clients like royalty), but the raw numbers do indeed scream discrimination.

On the surface, it would appear this way. However, is it sexist in nature? Did other men, who did not close 10-15 loans/month make more in commissions than this woman?

I am a bit confused, because you say he was the most productive loan officer, but two loans doesn't seem like much. Were they major clients or multi-million dollar loans? If so, couldn't that justify the lop-sided commissions (as well as him being a mentor)?
My work here is, finally, done.
wrichcirw
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6/4/2013 12:57:09 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 6/4/2013 12:12:50 AM, Khaos_Mage wrote:
At 6/3/2013 3:30:19 PM, wrichcirw wrote:
I worked in the loan business for a short time a while back. My mentor was a man that closed two loans a month, and earned gigantic commissions off each loan. He was known as one of the most productive guys on the team.

His main competitor was a woman who typically closed 10-15 loans a month, yet grossed the same income as this man.

IMHO that is a bit discriminatory. I know there are a gigantic number of factors involved (the man worked holidays, weekends, etc...really treated his clients like royalty), but the raw numbers do indeed scream discrimination.

On the surface, it would appear this way. However, is it sexist in nature? Did other men, who did not close 10-15 loans/month make more in commissions than this woman?

I am a bit confused, because you say he was the most productive loan officer, but two loans doesn't seem like much. Were they major clients or multi-million dollar loans? If so, couldn't that justify the lop-sided commissions (as well as him being a mentor)?

The size of the loans were generally the same across the board. The main difference was the commission...the woman apparently voluntarily cut her commission in order to attract more business. Still, it's an 80% cut on commission...that's quite sizable. Oh...probably important to note that it was my mentor that told me this, lol. I didn't go around the office asking how they priced their packages.

Productivity was measured by $$$ brought into the company...commissions were split between the agent and the firm.

It's all starting to come back...I also just remembered that most of the man's commission was due to fees tacked on at signing...dirty bastard =) I don't think most of his clients actually knew that those fees were going straight into his pocket...they thought it was just part of the process.
At 8/9/2013 9:41:24 AM, wrichcirw wrote:
If you are civil with me, I will be civil to you. If you decide to bring unreasonable animosity to bear in a reasonable discussion, then what would you expect other than to get flustered?
tulle
Posts: 4,445
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6/4/2013 1:12:45 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 6/4/2013 12:57:09 AM, wrichcirw wrote:

It's all starting to come back...I also just remembered that most of the man's commission was due to fees tacked on at signing...dirty bastard =) I don't think most of his clients actually knew that those fees were going straight into his pocket...they thought it was just part of the process.

Is that legal?
yang.
Ore_Ele
Posts: 25,980
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6/4/2013 1:24:35 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 6/4/2013 1:12:45 AM, tulle wrote:
At 6/4/2013 12:57:09 AM, wrichcirw wrote:

It's all starting to come back...I also just remembered that most of the man's commission was due to fees tacked on at signing...dirty bastard =) I don't think most of his clients actually knew that those fees were going straight into his pocket...they thought it was just part of the process.

Is that legal?

If the woman is voluntarily taking lower commissions in order to offer cheaper loans, and so attract more clients, then yes it is. Or at least, it should be. If you want to cut your own pay to try and under cut your competition, you should be able to, to a degree (so long as you are free to make the choice and not de facto required to).

My wife sells Mary Kay. From the MSRP, 50% goes to the company and 50% goes to her, but if she wishes to have a 20% off sale, she can do that, but it comes from her commissions side. That is a choice that she makes.
"Wanting Red Rhino Pill to have gender"
wrichcirw
Posts: 11,196
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6/4/2013 1:29:45 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 6/4/2013 1:12:45 AM, tulle wrote:
At 6/4/2013 12:57:09 AM, wrichcirw wrote:

It's all starting to come back...I also just remembered that most of the man's commission was due to fees tacked on at signing...dirty bastard =) I don't think most of his clients actually knew that those fees were going straight into his pocket...they thought it was just part of the process.

Is that legal?

There was disclosure. That's where the schmoozing came in handy - at that point he had the clients eating out of his hand. The guy was a grade A sycophant.

It wasn't easy though...a lot of his clients would call at 5AM or earlier...I remember getting to the office at 6AM and him already having a list of things from his clients to take care of. He didn't understand the concept of a holiday. He was estranged from his entire family.
At 8/9/2013 9:41:24 AM, wrichcirw wrote:
If you are civil with me, I will be civil to you. If you decide to bring unreasonable animosity to bear in a reasonable discussion, then what would you expect other than to get flustered?
Khaos_Mage
Posts: 23,214
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6/4/2013 2:30:22 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 6/4/2013 12:57:09 AM, wrichcirw wrote:
At 6/4/2013 12:12:50 AM, Khaos_Mage wrote:
At 6/3/2013 3:30:19 PM, wrichcirw wrote:
I worked in the loan business for a short time a while back. My mentor was a man that closed two loans a month, and earned gigantic commissions off each loan. He was known as one of the most productive guys on the team.

His main competitor was a woman who typically closed 10-15 loans a month, yet grossed the same income as this man.

IMHO that is a bit discriminatory. I know there are a gigantic number of factors involved (the man worked holidays, weekends, etc...really treated his clients like royalty), but the raw numbers do indeed scream discrimination.

On the surface, it would appear this way. However, is it sexist in nature? Did other men, who did not close 10-15 loans/month make more in commissions than this woman?

I am a bit confused, because you say he was the most productive loan officer, but two loans doesn't seem like much. Were they major clients or multi-million dollar loans? If so, couldn't that justify the lop-sided commissions (as well as him being a mentor)?

The size of the loans were generally the same across the board. The main difference was the commission...the woman apparently voluntarily cut her commission in order to attract more business. Still, it's an 80% cut on commission...that's quite sizable. Oh...probably important to note that it was my mentor that told me this, lol. I didn't go around the office asking how they priced their packages.

Productivity was measured by $$$ brought into the company...commissions were split between the agent and the firm.

It's all starting to come back...I also just remembered that most of the man's commission was due to fees tacked on at signing...dirty bastard =) I don't think most of his clients actually knew that those fees were going straight into his pocket...they thought it was just part of the process.

If what he says is true, then it's not discrimination. She may have cut her commissions to ensure she made money. I would. Regardless of the reason, it was not due to sexism (at least not from the employer's standpoint) and the stat of 77% should not apply here.
My work here is, finally, done.
Wnope
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6/4/2013 2:52:25 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
When it comes to a same-job-same-risk comparison, the amount that women versus men make is less than 25 cents on the dollar.

If you average the income of all women across the nation versus all men, you'll get the 75 cents on the dollar statistics. But things are more equal (though not totally) when you frame it as the same people doing the same job.

In the more equal states (ex. California) rates go as high as 90 cents on the dollar for women.

But that's still a 10% pay cut for lacking a penis.
Khaos_Mage
Posts: 23,214
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6/4/2013 3:07:12 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 6/4/2013 2:52:25 AM, Wnope wrote:
When it comes to a same-job-same-risk comparison, the amount that women versus men make is less than 25 cents on the dollar.

If you average the income of all women across the nation versus all men, you'll get the 75 cents on the dollar statistics. But things are more equal (though not totally) when you frame it as the same people doing the same job.

In the more equal states (ex. California) rates go as high as 90 cents on the dollar for women.

But that's still a 10% pay cut for lacking a penis.

Yes, I know that's the stat. My question is: have you ever met anyone? I have not. In fact, I have known female supervisors to make more than their male counterparts within the same company at at least three different companies.

The stats I have seen also suggest that women also work part time more than men. Isn't that a significant factor? I am more likely to pay someone a lower wage for working 20 hours/wk than 40.
My work here is, finally, done.
1Devilsadvocate
Posts: 1,518
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6/4/2013 3:26:02 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
Darkkermit had a good debate about this topic: http://www.debate.org...
I cannot write in English, because of the treacherous spelling. When I am reading, I only hear it and am unable to remember what the written word looks like."
"Albert Einstein

http://www.twainquotes.com... , http://thewritecorner.wordpress.com... , http://www.onlinecollegecourses.com...
Khaos_Mage
Posts: 23,214
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6/4/2013 4:22:44 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 6/4/2013 3:26:02 AM, 1Devilsadvocate wrote:
Darkkermit had a good debate about this topic: http://www.debate.org...

I miss malcolmxy.
Anyway, thanks for the link, I vaguely recall seeing this debate. However, the purpose of this thread is to see if anyone can present anecdotal evidence.
My work here is, finally, done.
ConservativeAmerican
Posts: 1,676
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6/4/2013 7:51:45 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 6/4/2013 12:57:09 AM, wrichcirw wrote:
At 6/4/2013 12:12:50 AM, Khaos_Mage wrote:
At 6/3/2013 3:30:19 PM, wrichcirw wrote:
I worked in the loan business for a short time a while back. My mentor was a man that closed two loans a month, and earned gigantic commissions off each loan. He was known as one of the most productive guys on the team.

His main competitor was a woman who typically closed 10-15 loans a month, yet grossed the same income as this man.

IMHO that is a bit discriminatory. I know there are a gigantic number of factors involved (the man worked holidays, weekends, etc...really treated his clients like royalty), but the raw numbers do indeed scream discrimination.

On the surface, it would appear this way. However, is it sexist in nature? Did other men, who did not close 10-15 loans/month make more in commissions than this woman?

I am a bit confused, because you say he was the most productive loan officer, but two loans doesn't seem like much. Were they major clients or multi-million dollar loans? If so, couldn't that justify the lop-sided commissions (as well as him being a mentor)?

The size of the loans were generally the same across the board. The main difference was the commission...the woman apparently voluntarily cut her commission in order to attract more business. Still, it's an 80% cut on commission...that's quite sizable. Oh...probably important to note that it was my mentor that told me this, lol. I didn't go around the office asking how they priced their packages.

Productivity was measured by $$$ brought into the company...commissions were split between the agent and the firm.

: It's all starting to come back...I also just remembered that most of the man's commission was due to fees tacked on at signing...dirty bastard =) I don't think most of his clients actually knew that those fees were going straight into his pocket...they thought it was just part of the process.

lol, so it wasn't discrimination, but he's still a crook.

ok, lol
leojm
Posts: 1,825
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6/4/2013 7:55:46 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 6/3/2013 3:17:29 PM, Khaos_Mage wrote:
I wasn't sure where to put this, so I put it here.

PLEASE BE HONEST

I have worked in multiple industries at over 40 jobs. However, I also live/worked in the suburbs and in a bluish/purple state. So, I have always had an issue with pay discrimination studies, as I have never seen it. In fact, in my experience, it seems to be the opposite, and even then, it was rare.

The reason I have issues with these studies, is I don't believe they compare apples to apples. To compare the female CEO of a company that has $2 million in revenue to the male CEO of a company that has $20 billion in revenue is not a fair comparison. It is the same job title, but it is not the same job.

Similarly, I do not believe education, work experience, company differentials (like size/structure/profit), hours demanded/expected, or productivity are factored into these studies. It seems they just take a survey and ask how much you are paid, your title, and how long you've been there.

That being said, I ask if anyone can will share their experience and circumstances where they know that a woman was paid less than a man for the same job, and it was because she was a woman (or at least, the reason offered seemed to not hold water).

Thank you, and please be objective.

Yes, my first job. I was the only girl working at the job. My boss was an absolute jerk. He thought it was funny that I didn't get payed as much as the other guys. I even worked double shifts. I was so ticked.
ConservativeAmerican
Posts: 1,676
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6/4/2013 8:01:53 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
I am in the marketing business for Sprint.

I get a higher base salary, because I'm always the guy who gets stuck with technical questions and who has to repair the phones or give advice, they realized that after a while and still saw me as useful, so they just increased my base salary. I make 52 grand for my salary and only about 6 grand on commission (after taxes, before takes I make about 65 grand altogether). So yea kids, don't get in to cell phone marketing, the pay isn't that great. lol

My real skill is in marketing, not tech. I am trying to get a job at Danberry, the commission there is a lot higher and allows for more competition, the base salary is only 44 grand, but 6% commission per sale.
leojm
Posts: 1,825
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6/4/2013 8:03:49 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 6/4/2013 8:01:53 AM, ConservativeAmerican wrote:
I am in the marketing business for Sprint.

I get a higher base salary, because I'm always the guy who gets stuck with technical questions and who has to repair the phones or give advice, they realized that after a while and still saw me as useful, so they just increased my base salary. I make 52 grand for my salary and only about 6 grand on commission (after taxes, before takes I make about 65 grand altogether). So yea kids, don't get in to cell phone marketing, the pay isn't that great. lol

My real skill is in marketing, not tech. I am trying to get a job at Danberry, the commission there is a lot higher and allows for more competition, the base salary is only 44 grand, but 6% commission per sale.

well, some jobs guys still get payed higher.
royalpaladin
Posts: 22,357
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6/4/2013 8:08:04 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 6/4/2013 3:07:12 AM, Khaos_Mage wrote:
At 6/4/2013 2:52:25 AM, Wnope wrote:
When it comes to a same-job-same-risk comparison, the amount that women versus men make is less than 25 cents on the dollar.

If you average the income of all women across the nation versus all men, you'll get the 75 cents on the dollar statistics. But things are more equal (though not totally) when you frame it as the same people doing the same job.

In the more equal states (ex. California) rates go as high as 90 cents on the dollar for women.

But that's still a 10% pay cut for lacking a penis.

Yes, I know that's the stat. My question is: have you ever met anyone? I have not. In fact, I have known female supervisors to make more than their male counterparts within the same company at at least three different companies.

The stats I have seen also suggest that women also work part time more than men. Isn't that a significant factor? I am more likely to pay someone a lower wage for working 20 hours/wk than 40.

I don't care about your personal anecdote. I care about facts.
ConservativeAmerican
Posts: 1,676
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6/4/2013 8:13:39 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
Well, this debate has been cited many times with no clear winner, I know I'm not getting sucked up in this one, you guys can do it. lol
leojm
Posts: 1,825
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6/4/2013 8:54:28 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 6/4/2013 8:13:39 AM, ConservativeAmerican wrote:
Well, this debate has been cited many times with no clear winner, I know I'm not getting sucked up in this one, you guys can do it. lol

ok thank you for the heads up. very helpful. :P
wrichcirw
Posts: 11,196
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6/4/2013 11:13:17 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 6/4/2013 2:30:22 AM, Khaos_Mage wrote:
At 6/4/2013 12:57:09 AM, wrichcirw wrote:

If what he says is true, then it's not discrimination. She may have cut her commissions to ensure she made money. I would. Regardless of the reason, it was not due to sexism (at least not from the employer's standpoint) and the stat of 77% should not apply here.

Well, all I'll say regarding any other anecdotal evidence is that it's quite taboo for people to ask about salaries, so you're more than likely not going to ever find anecdotal evidence.
At 8/9/2013 9:41:24 AM, wrichcirw wrote:
If you are civil with me, I will be civil to you. If you decide to bring unreasonable animosity to bear in a reasonable discussion, then what would you expect other than to get flustered?
wrichcirw
Posts: 11,196
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6/4/2013 11:13:53 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 6/4/2013 8:08:04 AM, royalpaladin wrote:
At 6/4/2013 3:07:12 AM, Khaos_Mage wrote:
At 6/4/2013 2:52:25 AM, Wnope wrote:
When it comes to a same-job-same-risk comparison, the amount that women versus men make is less than 25 cents on the dollar.

If you average the income of all women across the nation versus all men, you'll get the 75 cents on the dollar statistics. But things are more equal (though not totally) when you frame it as the same people doing the same job.

In the more equal states (ex. California) rates go as high as 90 cents on the dollar for women.

But that's still a 10% pay cut for lacking a penis.

Yes, I know that's the stat. My question is: have you ever met anyone? I have not. In fact, I have known female supervisors to make more than their male counterparts within the same company at at least three different companies.

The stats I have seen also suggest that women also work part time more than men. Isn't that a significant factor? I am more likely to pay someone a lower wage for working 20 hours/wk than 40.

I don't care about your personal anecdote. I care about facts.

Then please don't comment in a thread asking for anecdotal evidence.
At 8/9/2013 9:41:24 AM, wrichcirw wrote:
If you are civil with me, I will be civil to you. If you decide to bring unreasonable animosity to bear in a reasonable discussion, then what would you expect other than to get flustered?
wrichcirw
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6/4/2013 11:15:01 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 6/4/2013 4:22:44 AM, Khaos_Mage wrote:
At 6/4/2013 3:26:02 AM, 1Devilsadvocate wrote:
Darkkermit had a good debate about this topic: http://www.debate.org...

I miss malcolmxy.
Anyway, thanks for the link, I vaguely recall seeing this debate. However, the purpose of this thread is to see if anyone can present anecdotal evidence.

I thought he won that debate, although both sides did pretty well.
At 8/9/2013 9:41:24 AM, wrichcirw wrote:
If you are civil with me, I will be civil to you. If you decide to bring unreasonable animosity to bear in a reasonable discussion, then what would you expect other than to get flustered?
leojm
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6/4/2013 11:19:40 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 6/4/2013 11:18:48 AM, drafterman wrote:
I tax my wife 25% of her salary, just to be safe.

haha. Really? How do you do that?
drafterman
Posts: 18,870
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6/4/2013 11:20:45 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 6/4/2013 11:19:40 AM, leojm wrote:
At 6/4/2013 11:18:48 AM, drafterman wrote:
I tax my wife 25% of her salary, just to be safe.

haha. Really? How do you do that?

I don't let her out of the kitchen until she pays up.
wrichcirw
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6/4/2013 12:15:54 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 6/4/2013 11:13:17 AM, wrichcirw wrote:
At 6/4/2013 2:30:22 AM, Khaos_Mage wrote:
At 6/4/2013 12:57:09 AM, wrichcirw wrote:

If what he says is true, then it's not discrimination. She may have cut her commissions to ensure she made money. I would. Regardless of the reason, it was not due to sexism (at least not from the employer's standpoint) and the stat of 77% should not apply here.

Well, all I'll say regarding any other anecdotal evidence is that it's quite taboo for people to ask about salaries, so you're more than likely not going to ever find anecdotal evidence.

I think the best way for you to get the info you're looking for is to ask whether or not there are any human resources representatives in ddo, and that without revealing names or workplaces, ask whether or not there is evident discrimination in their workplaces.
At 8/9/2013 9:41:24 AM, wrichcirw wrote:
If you are civil with me, I will be civil to you. If you decide to bring unreasonable animosity to bear in a reasonable discussion, then what would you expect other than to get flustered?
Khaos_Mage
Posts: 23,214
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6/4/2013 2:11:33 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 6/4/2013 8:01:53 AM, ConservativeAmerican wrote:
I am in the marketing business for Sprint.

I get a higher base salary, because I'm always the guy who gets stuck with technical questions and who has to repair the phones or give advice, they realized that after a while and still saw me as useful, so they just increased my base salary. I make 52 grand for my salary and only about 6 grand on commission (after taxes, before takes I make about 65 grand altogether). So yea kids, don't get in to cell phone marketing, the pay isn't that great. lol

My real skill is in marketing, not tech. I am trying to get a job at Danberry, the commission there is a lot higher and allows for more competition, the base salary is only 44 grand, but 6% commission per sale.

I don't understand the point of this post...
My work here is, finally, done.
Khaos_Mage
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6/4/2013 2:18:00 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 6/4/2013 8:08:04 AM, royalpaladin wrote:
At 6/4/2013 3:07:12 AM, Khaos_Mage wrote:
At 6/4/2013 2:52:25 AM, Wnope wrote:
When it comes to a same-job-same-risk comparison, the amount that women versus men make is less than 25 cents on the dollar.

If you average the income of all women across the nation versus all men, you'll get the 75 cents on the dollar statistics. But things are more equal (though not totally) when you frame it as the same people doing the same job.

In the more equal states (ex. California) rates go as high as 90 cents on the dollar for women.

But that's still a 10% pay cut for lacking a penis.

Yes, I know that's the stat. My question is: have you ever met anyone? I have not. In fact, I have known female supervisors to make more than their male counterparts within the same company at at least three different companies.

The stats I have seen also suggest that women also work part time more than men. Isn't that a significant factor? I am more likely to pay someone a lower wage for working 20 hours/wk than 40.

I don't care about your personal anecdote. I care about facts.

And where are the facts, Royal? In studies that offer stats that I believe are misleading, which I stated in the OP?

I actually thought you would post something informative here.

Why should I believe studies that suggest pay discrimination is both rampant and egregious, when I have not seen it, ever? I am asking for people to offer their experiences that validate this claim.

Bottom line, statistics can be spun, and as such, I don't believe them.

Don't get me wrong, I do not deny it has happened in the past, I just don't believe it occurs today. Not in unions with restrictive pay scales, not in major corporations, and not in low paying jobs. The only factor is raises, and does any study verify any justification given for one to get a better raise than another?
My work here is, finally, done.