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NSA scandal

RoyLatham
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6/11/2013 1:10:02 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
I'm not sure it's a scandal, but if I called it a kerfuffle few under age 60 would know what I was talking about.

The National Security Agency was revealed to be doing two separate things. According to the government:

The NSA is keeping records of phone transactions of Americans, including the calling and receiving numbers, the time of the call, and the locations of cell phone calls. No names are associated with the numbers and no phone conversations are recorded. If a bad guy outside of the US is discovered having a cell phone, such as a terrorist captured with a phone, then the transactions can be traced in the US.

Verizon was identified, but all the phone companies are believed to have been accessed.

The phone transaction data collection has been tested in the courts and found to be Constitutional.

A second program called PRISM intercepts and records phone message and e-mails when at least one of the parties is outside of the United States. The stored data involving US residents cannot be accessed without a warrant from the FISA court. This activity is authorized by the Patriot Act. No calls or messages entirely within the US are recorded.

The NSA's main job is intercepting and mining data outside the US, and they have been doing that on a very large scale for many years. (Years ago they tapped a Soviet undersea cable.) NSA is building a gigantic data center in Nevada to keep their future stash of digital data.

It remains to be seen if the government is only doing what it says it is doing. Unlike the IRS, NSA is a serious non-partisan professional organization, so maybe they are within what the law allows. But it's not a certainty.

Glenn Beck, Sen. Rand Paul, Dennis Kucinich, and Michael Moore are among those opposed to the NSA activity. Rush Limbaugh, Sen. Lindsay Graham, Sen. Diane Feinstein, and, of course, President Obama are among those supporting it. So much for partisan lines.
Ore_Ele
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6/11/2013 1:13:31 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
Wait... Obama and Limbaugh are both supporting the same thing? Wasn't that listed in the book of Revelations as a sign of the apocalypse?
"Wanting Red Rhino Pill to have gender"
Wnope
Posts: 6,924
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6/11/2013 1:19:55 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
So....am I the only one who remembers this happening for the past half-decade?

Why are conservative so suddenly up in arms about the rubber-stamping FISA courts? Liberals were raving about it years ago and cries of "national security" where all that could be heard from the right.
bladerunner060
Posts: 7,126
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6/11/2013 1:32:32 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 6/11/2013 1:19:55 AM, Wnope wrote:
So....am I the only one who remembers this happening for the past half-decade?

Why are conservative so suddenly up in arms about the rubber-stamping FISA courts? Liberals were raving about it years ago and cries of "national security" where all that could be heard from the right.

It's totally different because Obama isn't JUST a Democrat. He's also BLACK!
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Ore_Ele
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6/11/2013 1:40:11 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 6/11/2013 1:19:55 AM, Wnope wrote:
So....am I the only one who remembers this happening for the past half-decade?

Why are conservative so suddenly up in arms about the rubber-stamping FISA courts? Liberals were raving about it years ago and cries of "national security" where all that could be heard from the right.

We also had ECHELON back in the 70s-90s until everything switched to fiber optic cables. This is ultimately nothing really new, and in the real world, not harmful.
"Wanting Red Rhino Pill to have gender"
RoyLatham
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6/11/2013 1:40:31 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 6/11/2013 1:19:55 AM, Wnope wrote:
So....am I the only one who remembers this happening for the past half-decade?

Oh, wait ... Obama has been in office for a half decade. Some of the activity was started under Bush, but the scope seems to have been dramatically expanded under Obama. One of Obama's original campaign promises was to end Patriot Act data collection.

Why are conservative so suddenly up in arms about the rubber-stamping FISA courts? Liberals were raving about it years ago and cries of "national security" where all that could be heard from the right.

Some are up in arms about, some are supporting it. Karl Rove and Bill Kristol are supporting President Obama on the issue, along with Limbaugh and a bunch of conservative Senators.
RoyLatham
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6/11/2013 1:42:35 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 6/11/2013 1:40:11 AM, Ore_Ele wrote:
We also had ECHELON back in the 70s-90s until everything switched to fiber optic cables. This is ultimately nothing really new, and in the real world, not harmful.

NSA tapped an undersea fiberoptic cable. Those guys are clever.
Wnope
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6/11/2013 1:44:36 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 6/11/2013 1:40:31 AM, RoyLatham wrote:
At 6/11/2013 1:19:55 AM, Wnope wrote:
So....am I the only one who remembers this happening for the past half-decade?

Oh, wait ... Obama has been in office for a half decade. Some of the activity was started under Bush, but the scope seems to have been dramatically expanded under Obama. One of Obama's original campaign promises was to end Patriot Act data collection.

Why are conservative so suddenly up in arms about the rubber-stamping FISA courts? Liberals were raving about it years ago and cries of "national security" where all that could be heard from the right.

Some are up in arms about, some are supporting it. Karl Rove and Bill Kristol are supporting President Obama on the issue, along with Limbaugh and a bunch of conservative Senators.

Right, Obama upped the ante to what Bush started.

It was FISA courts that were seen as the key problem, but the issue is being treated like no one ever heard of the darn things before today.
GeoLaureate8
Posts: 12,252
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6/11/2013 12:02:14 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
I support the NSA, we need national defense on the cyber-frontier.

However, it needs to stick to foreign affairs and communications with foreigners. Surprisingly Bill O'Reilly wants to abolish the NSA but I find this a diversion from the legitimate abolish movement working to abolish the IRS.
"We must raise the standard of the Old, free, decentralized, and strictly limited Republic."
-- Murray Rothbard

"The worst thing that can happen to a good cause is, not to be skillfully attacked, but to be ineptly defended."
-- Frederic Bastiat
Wallstreetatheist
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6/11/2013 12:29:27 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 6/11/2013 12:02:14 PM, GeoLaureate8 wrote:
I support the NSA, we need national defense on the cyber-frontier.

However, it needs to stick to foreign affairs and communications with foreigners. Surprisingly Bill O'Reilly wants to abolish the NSA but I find this a diversion from the legitimate abolish movement working to abolish the IRS.

Yeah, tell the monopoly on violence to just do good stuff and not bad stuff.
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GeoLaureate8
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6/11/2013 12:39:07 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 6/11/2013 12:29:27 PM, Wallstreetatheist wrote:
At 6/11/2013 12:02:14 PM, GeoLaureate8 wrote:
I support the NSA, we need national defense on the cyber-frontier.

However, it needs to stick to foreign affairs and communications with foreigners. Surprisingly Bill O'Reilly wants to abolish the NSA but I find this a diversion from the legitimate abolish movement working to abolish the IRS.

Yeah, tell the monopoly on violence to just do good stuff and not bad stuff.

No violence exists and good people only exist in your political system of choice. Meanwhile my system acknowledges both and results in the least amount of it.
"We must raise the standard of the Old, free, decentralized, and strictly limited Republic."
-- Murray Rothbard

"The worst thing that can happen to a good cause is, not to be skillfully attacked, but to be ineptly defended."
-- Frederic Bastiat
Noumena
Posts: 6,047
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6/11/2013 12:57:36 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 6/11/2013 12:39:07 PM, GeoLaureate8 wrote:
At 6/11/2013 12:29:27 PM, Wallstreetatheist wrote:
At 6/11/2013 12:02:14 PM, GeoLaureate8 wrote:
I support the NSA, we need national defense on the cyber-frontier.

However, it needs to stick to foreign affairs and communications with foreigners. Surprisingly Bill O'Reilly wants to abolish the NSA but I find this a diversion from the legitimate abolish movement working to abolish the IRS.

Yeah, tell the monopoly on violence to just do good stuff and not bad stuff.

No violence exists and good people only exist in your political system of choice. Meanwhile my system acknowledges both and results in the least amount of it.

How's that working out for ya?
: At 5/13/2014 7:05:20 PM, Crescendo wrote:
: The difference is that the gay movement is currently pushing their will on Churches, as shown in the link to gay marriage in Denmark. Meanwhile, the Inquisition ended several centuries ago.
inferno
Posts: 10,556
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6/11/2013 1:11:16 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 6/11/2013 1:10:02 AM, RoyLatham wrote:
I'm not sure it's a scandal, but if I called it a kerfuffle few under age 60 would know what I was talking about.

The National Security Agency was revealed to be doing two separate things. According to the government:

The NSA is keeping records of phone transactions of Americans, including the calling and receiving numbers, the time of the call, and the locations of cell phone calls. No names are associated with the numbers and no phone conversations are recorded. If a bad guy outside of the US is discovered having a cell phone, such as a terrorist captured with a phone, then the transactions can be traced in the US.

Verizon was identified, but all the phone companies are believed to have been accessed.

The phone transaction data collection has been tested in the courts and found to be Constitutional.

A second program called PRISM intercepts and records phone message and e-mails when at least one of the parties is outside of the United States. The stored data involving US residents cannot be accessed without a warrant from the FISA court. This activity is authorized by the Patriot Act. No calls or messages entirely within the US are recorded.

The NSA's main job is intercepting and mining data outside the US, and they have been doing that on a very large scale for many years. (Years ago they tapped a Soviet undersea cable.) NSA is building a gigantic data center in Nevada to keep their future stash of digital data.

It remains to be seen if the government is only doing what it says it is doing. Unlike the IRS, NSA is a serious non-partisan professional organization, so maybe they are within what the law allows. But it's not a certainty.

Glenn Beck, Sen. Rand Paul, Dennis Kucinich, and Michael Moore are among those opposed to the NSA activity. Rush Limbaugh, Sen. Lindsay Graham, Sen. Diane Feinstein, and, of course, President Obama are among those supporting it. So much for partisan lines.

Roy. Do you have time to watch a video. Not just any video. This one is live and direct. It is conclusive, or in some manner of another, conclusive evidence about the existence of aliens.
See Society category for more information.
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YYW
Posts: 36,282
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6/11/2013 2:20:36 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
I remain undecided on what I think about NSA surveillance. I understand that it is nearly indispensable for national security objectives, but I'm not sure if those objectives are more important than people's right to privacy. In one sense, I think that it's inevitable and therefore should just be used to protect the American people. In another sense, I fear for what it means when the land of the free and home of the brave becomes the land of the monitored and home of the paranoid.

If anyone wants to debate this issue, I'd be really interested in taking it up either side of this issue. Please feel free to send challenges.
Tsar of DDO
inferno
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6/11/2013 3:25:12 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 6/11/2013 1:10:02 AM, RoyLatham wrote:
I'm not sure it's a scandal, but if I called it a kerfuffle few under age 60 would know what I was talking about.

The National Security Agency was revealed to be doing two separate things. According to the government:

The NSA is keeping records of phone transactions of Americans, including the calling and receiving numbers, the time of the call, and the locations of cell phone calls. No names are associated with the numbers and no phone conversations are recorded. If a bad guy outside of the US is discovered having a cell phone, such as a terrorist captured with a phone, then the transactions can be traced in the US.

Verizon was identified, but all the phone companies are believed to have been accessed.

The phone transaction data collection has been tested in the courts and found to be Constitutional.

A second program called PRISM intercepts and records phone message and e-mails when at least one of the parties is outside of the United States. The stored data involving US residents cannot be accessed without a warrant from the FISA court. This activity is authorized by the Patriot Act. No calls or messages entirely within the US are recorded.

The NSA's main job is intercepting and mining data outside the US, and they have been doing that on a very large scale for many years. (Years ago they tapped a Soviet undersea cable.) NSA is building a gigantic data center in Nevada to keep their future stash of digital data.

It remains to be seen if the government is only doing what it says it is doing. Unlike the IRS, NSA is a serious non-partisan professional organization, so maybe they are within what the law allows. But it's not a certainty.

Glenn Beck, Sen. Rand Paul, Dennis Kucinich, and Michael Moore are among those opposed to the NSA activity. Rush Limbaugh, Sen. Lindsay Graham, Sen. Diane Feinstein, and, of course, President Obama are among those supporting it. So much for partisan lines.

You know a Man once told me. He said Inferno, if you always give people the truth and use common sense, you will never be left in the dark again, or be taken for a ride.
Now you would think that after all of these scandals and corrupt and fallible institutions fall or become exposed, that people would get it. But because they do not, they are indeed
brainwashed. Are you one of those people. =)
Stephen_Hawkins
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6/11/2013 4:06:20 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 6/11/2013 12:02:14 PM, GeoLaureate8 wrote:
I support the NSA, we need national defense on the cyber-frontier.

However, it needs to stick to foreign affairs and communications with foreigners. Surprisingly Bill O'Reilly wants to abolish the NSA but I find this a diversion from the legitimate abolish movement working to abolish the IRS.

Basically, you support freedom, but only if its American brand.

Do you practice disagreeing with people on every issue, or were you just born with the skill?
Give a man a fish, he'll eat for a day. Teach him how to be Gay, he'll positively influence the GDP.

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DetectableNinja
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6/11/2013 4:13:08 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 6/11/2013 1:19:55 AM, Wnope wrote:
So....am I the only one who remembers this happening for the past half-decade?

Why are conservative so suddenly up in arms about the rubber-stamping FISA courts? Liberals were raving about it years ago and cries of "national security" where all that could be heard from the right.

That's sadly how it always seems to work out.

Those in power see themselves as incapable of wrongdoing, and those in the opposition see themselves as the holy rebels, tasked with scrutinizing everything done by the government (so long as the government isn't themselves).
Think'st thou heaven is such a glorious thing?
I tell thee, 'tis not half so fair as thou
Or any man that breathes on earth.

- Christopher Marlowe, Doctor Faustus
sadolite
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6/11/2013 4:29:20 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 6/11/2013 1:13:31 AM, Ore_Ele wrote:
Wait... Obama and Limbaugh are both supporting the same thing? Wasn't that listed in the book of Revelations as a sign of the apocalypse?

Even a broken clock is right twice a daY
It's not your views that divide us, it's what you think my views should be that divides us.

If you think I will give up my rights and forsake social etiquette to make you "FEEL" better you are sadly mistaken

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GeoLaureate8
Posts: 12,252
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6/11/2013 5:43:57 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 6/11/2013 12:57:36 PM, Noumena wrote:
How's that working out for ya?

Let's see, the greatest country in the world for 3 centuries? Pretty damn good. How's Somalia workin for ya?

"The existence of a free market does not of course eliminate the need for government. On the contrary, government is essential both as a forum for determining the 'rule of the game' and as an umpire to interpret and enforce the rules decided on."
-- Milton Friedman
"We must raise the standard of the Old, free, decentralized, and strictly limited Republic."
-- Murray Rothbard

"The worst thing that can happen to a good cause is, not to be skillfully attacked, but to be ineptly defended."
-- Frederic Bastiat
Skepsikyma
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6/11/2013 7:10:07 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 6/11/2013 5:43:57 PM, GeoLaureate8 wrote:
At 6/11/2013 12:57:36 PM, Noumena wrote:
How's that working out for ya?

Let's see, the greatest country in the world for 3 centuries? Pretty damn good. How's Somalia workin for ya?

"The existence of a free market does not of course eliminate the need for government. On the contrary, government is essential both as a forum for determining the 'rule of the game' and as an umpire to interpret and enforce the rules decided on."
-- Milton Friedman

Yay complete ignorance of international politics! 'Murica!

(Either that or blatant dishonesty regarding the situation in Somalia in order to make a point, buy I'll assume the innocent crime of ignorance is at play for the moment.)
"The Collectivist experiment is thoroughly suited (in appearance at least) to the Capitalist society which it proposes to replace. It works with the existing machinery of Capitalism, talks and thinks in the existing terms of Capitalism, appeals to just those appetites which Capitalism has aroused, and ridicules as fantastic and unheard-of just those things in society the memory of which Capitalism has killed among men wherever the blight of it has spread."
- Hilaire Belloc -
Noumena
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6/11/2013 7:59:13 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 6/11/2013 5:43:57 PM, GeoLaureate8 wrote:
At 6/11/2013 12:57:36 PM, Noumena wrote:
How's that working out for ya?

Let's see, the greatest country in the world for 3 centuries? Pretty damn good.

Ugh. Yer nationalism is showing.

How's Somalia workin for ya?

Who brought up Somalia?

"The existence of a free market does not of course eliminate the need for government. On the contrary, government is essential both as a forum for determining the 'rule of the game' and as an umpire to interpret and enforce the rules decided on."
-- Milton Friedman

Well if Friedman said it who am I to argue?
: At 5/13/2014 7:05:20 PM, Crescendo wrote:
: The difference is that the gay movement is currently pushing their will on Churches, as shown in the link to gay marriage in Denmark. Meanwhile, the Inquisition ended several centuries ago.
GeoLaureate8
Posts: 12,252
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6/12/2013 1:25:39 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 6/11/2013 7:10:07 PM, Skepsikyma wrote:
At 6/11/2013 5:43:57 PM, GeoLaureate8 wrote:
Let's see, the greatest country in the world for 3 centuries? Pretty damn good. How's Somalia workin for ya?

"The existence of a free market does not of course eliminate the need for government. On the contrary, government is essential both as a forum for determining the 'rule of the game' and as an umpire to interpret and enforce the rules decided on."
-- Milton Friedman

Yay complete ignorance of international politics! 'Murica!

So you're saying either a. Somalia was never an Anarchy or b. Somalia is better than America.

Wow. That is idiotic either way.

(Either that or blatant dishonesty regarding the situation in Somalia in order to make a point, buy I'll assume the innocent crime of ignorance is at play for the moment.)

"Somalia, from 1991 to 2006, is cited as a real-world example of a stateless society and legal system.[1][2] Since the fall of Siad Barre's government in January 1991, there had been no permanent national government in Somalia[3] until the current Transitional Federal Government. Large areas of the country such as Puntland, and Galmudug are internationally unrecognized autonomous regions, while Somaliland is a de facto sovereign state. The remaining areas, including the capital Mogadishu, were divided into smaller territories ruled by competing warlords. In many areas there were (and still are) no formal regulations or licensing requirements for businesses and individuals."

https://en.wikipedia.org...
"We must raise the standard of the Old, free, decentralized, and strictly limited Republic."
-- Murray Rothbard

"The worst thing that can happen to a good cause is, not to be skillfully attacked, but to be ineptly defended."
-- Frederic Bastiat
GeoLaureate8
Posts: 12,252
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6/12/2013 1:28:58 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 6/11/2013 7:59:13 PM, Noumena wrote:
At 6/11/2013 5:43:57 PM, GeoLaureate8 wrote:
Let's see, the greatest country in the world for 3 centuries? Pretty damn good.

Ugh. Yer nationalism is showing.

"I can say " not as a patriotic bromide, but with full knowledge of the necessary metaphysical, epistemological, ethical, political, and aesthetic roots " that the United States of America is the greatest, the noblest and, in its original founding principles, the only moral country in the history of the world."
-- Ayn Rand

How's Somalia workin for ya?

Who brought up Somalia?

I likewise could say "who brought up America" but it was clear that you interpreted "my system" to mean "America." In the same sentiment, I extracted Somalia as the closest form of government that you propose, a full blown Anarchy.

"The existence of a free market does not of course eliminate the need for government. On the contrary, government is essential both as a forum for determining the 'rule of the game' and as an umpire to interpret and enforce the rules decided on."
-- Milton Friedman

Well if Friedman said it who am I to argue?

Indeed.
"We must raise the standard of the Old, free, decentralized, and strictly limited Republic."
-- Murray Rothbard

"The worst thing that can happen to a good cause is, not to be skillfully attacked, but to be ineptly defended."
-- Frederic Bastiat
Skepsikyma
Posts: 8,280
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6/12/2013 6:02:20 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 6/12/2013 1:25:39 AM, GeoLaureate8 wrote:
At 6/11/2013 7:10:07 PM, Skepsikyma wrote:
At 6/11/2013 5:43:57 PM, GeoLaureate8 wrote:
Let's see, the greatest country in the world for 3 centuries? Pretty damn good. How's Somalia workin for ya?

"The existence of a free market does not of course eliminate the need for government. On the contrary, government is essential both as a forum for determining the 'rule of the game' and as an umpire to interpret and enforce the rules decided on."
-- Milton Friedman

Yay complete ignorance of international politics! 'Murica!

So you're saying either a. Somalia was never an Anarchy or b. Somalia is better than America.

Somalia has been in a brutal civil war between various competing potential governmental forces. It is in no way a model for any current anarchistic philosophy of government. The word 'anarchy' is used to describe Somalia in a non-technical, vague way to hint at chaos and turmoil characteristic of the power struggles which occur when a government collapse. To invoke it as an example of the failures of anarchistic philosophy is either grossly ignorant or dishonest, not to mention morally reprehensible, considering the fact that you're reducing the horrific suffering of an entire nation to a hackneyed quip in a political theory discussion while simultaneously promoting ignorance about a very real, very dire conflict.

Wow. That is idiotic either way.

(Either that or blatant dishonesty regarding the situation in Somalia in order to make a point, buy I'll assume the innocent crime of ignorance is at play for the moment.)

"Somalia, from 1991 to 2006, is cited as a real-world example of a stateless society and legal system.[1][2] Since the fall of Siad Barre's government in January 1991, there had been no permanent national government in Somalia[3] until the current Transitional Federal Government. Large areas of the country such as Puntland, and Galmudug are internationally unrecognized autonomous regions, while Somaliland is a de facto sovereign state. The remaining areas, including the capital Mogadishu, were divided into smaller territories ruled by competing warlords. In many areas there were (and still are) no formal regulations or licensing requirements for businesses and individuals."

https://en.wikipedia.org...
"The Collectivist experiment is thoroughly suited (in appearance at least) to the Capitalist society which it proposes to replace. It works with the existing machinery of Capitalism, talks and thinks in the existing terms of Capitalism, appeals to just those appetites which Capitalism has aroused, and ridicules as fantastic and unheard-of just those things in society the memory of which Capitalism has killed among men wherever the blight of it has spread."
- Hilaire Belloc -
Noumena
Posts: 6,047
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6/12/2013 8:44:53 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 6/12/2013 1:28:58 AM, GeoLaureate8 wrote:
At 6/11/2013 7:59:13 PM, Noumena wrote:
At 6/11/2013 5:43:57 PM, GeoLaureate8 wrote:
Let's see, the greatest country in the world for 3 centuries? Pretty damn good.

Ugh. Yer nationalism is showing.

"I can say " not as a patriotic bromide, but with full knowledge of the necessary metaphysical, epistemological, ethical, political, and aesthetic roots " that the United States of America is the greatest, the noblest and, in its original founding principles, the only moral country in the history of the world."
-- Ayn Rand

Well if Rand said it..... I suppose Palestinians and Native Americans are brute savages and homosexuals are immoral or mentally disordered too.

How's Somalia workin for ya?

Who brought up Somalia?

I likewise could say "who brought up America" but it was clear that you interpreted "my system" to mean "America." In the same sentiment, I extracted Somalia as the closest form of government that you propose, a full blown Anarchy.

Not really.

"The existence of a free market does not of course eliminate the need for government. On the contrary, government is essential both as a forum for determining the 'rule of the game' and as an umpire to interpret and enforce the rules decided on."
-- Milton Friedman

Well if Friedman said it who am I to argue?

Indeed.

I think you might actually believe that. For clarity's sake, I was being sarcastic.
: At 5/13/2014 7:05:20 PM, Crescendo wrote:
: The difference is that the gay movement is currently pushing their will on Churches, as shown in the link to gay marriage in Denmark. Meanwhile, the Inquisition ended several centuries ago.
darkkermit
Posts: 11,204
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6/12/2013 11:20:32 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
I really have my doubts that this data will only be used for the purpose of tracking terrorist activity.

I mean if you access to a database that you can use to fvcking destroy the reputation of any and all people that get in your way, why wouldn't you use it?
Open borders debate:
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darkkermit
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6/12/2013 11:23:55 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
Also remember, that in a world where there are thousands of pages of laws, you are always doing something illegal. The government can easily arrest you.
Open borders debate:
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darkkermit
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6/12/2013 11:57:16 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 6/11/2013 12:29:27 PM, Wallstreetatheist wrote:
At 6/11/2013 12:02:14 PM, GeoLaureate8 wrote:
I support the NSA, we need national defense on the cyber-frontier.

However, it needs to stick to foreign affairs and communications with foreigners. Surprisingly Bill O'Reilly wants to abolish the NSA but I find this a diversion from the legitimate abolish movement working to abolish the IRS.

Yeah, tell the monopoly on violence to just do good stuff and not bad stuff.

They're not a monopoly on violence, they're just have the capacity to do the most of it. Any person can beat the sh1t out of you if they wanted to. Chances are you probably won't bother to report it. If you do report it, chances are you won't be able to identify the person who did it and neither would the cops. Hell, even if you were straight up murdered, there's only at best a 50% chance they'd find the murderer anyhow.

Sure you have to do certain things for the government. You also have to follow basic social custom as well, unless you want to avoid a beating or death. Yell out "I hate n*ggers" in harlem and see how long you last. Even if other social customs are not followed, you might not get beaten for it, but you still risk social isolation.
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GeoLaureate8
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6/12/2013 12:13:49 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 6/12/2013 8:44:53 AM, Noumena wrote:
At 6/12/2013 1:28:58 AM, GeoLaureate8 wrote:
"I can say " not as a patriotic bromide, but with full knowledge of the necessary metaphysical, epistemological, ethical, political, and aesthetic roots " that the United States of America is the greatest, the noblest and, in its original founding principles, the only moral country in the history of the world."
-- Ayn Rand

Well if Rand said it..... I suppose Palestinians and Native Americans are brute savages and homosexuals are immoral or mentally disordered too.

I guess I can't cite any Enlightenment philosophers either because they were sexist.

I likewise could say "who brought up America" but it was clear that you interpreted "my system" to mean "America." In the same sentiment, I extracted Somalia as the closest form of government that you propose, a full blown Anarchy.

Not really.

Are you an Anarchist?

Indeed.

I think you might actually believe that. For clarity's sake, I was being sarcastic.

Yes, I could tell you were being sarcastic. My response was semi-serious. I don't declare that because Friedman said x is true therefore it is true, I simply invoke Friedman to add to the persuasiveness of my position.
"We must raise the standard of the Old, free, decentralized, and strictly limited Republic."
-- Murray Rothbard

"The worst thing that can happen to a good cause is, not to be skillfully attacked, but to be ineptly defended."
-- Frederic Bastiat