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Police More Dangerous Than Criminals

Wallstreetatheist
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6/16/2013 9:53:36 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
From Dave Kozak

"Police are more dangerous than common criminals because:

1) If you are attacked by criminals, you can defend yourself. If you are attacked by police, you cannot defend yourself without long-term imprisonment and being shunned from society.

2) Police are much more likely to be targeting you than criminals are. Criminals look for easy marks, or are looking for other criminals, or are looking to do business on the black market. Police are targeting you, waiting for you to perform the wrong action or present the wrong attitude.

3) Police believe what they are doing is moral, and will often act with zeal. They are given accolades and awards from their co-workers, and often given thank you and praise from people in the broader society. Criminals on the other hand often have self-esteem problems, are nervous, or are acting out of desperation and can be deterred or reasoned-down.

4) If you are under attack by police, other people will almost always give them the benefit of the doubt. If you are under attack by criminals, you can raise the alarm and summon other people to help you.

5) Criminals are much more likely to limit the amount of force they will use to achieve their goal. Police will often use escalating force to achieve their goal. They will call in reinforcements, throw bombs in your home to get at you, all kinds of things. Criminals have much more limited resources and limited will than police forces."
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muzebreak
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6/16/2013 11:01:01 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 6/16/2013 9:53:36 PM, Wallstreetatheist wrote:
From Dave Kozak

"Police are more dangerous than common criminals because:

1) If you are attacked by criminals, you can defend yourself. If you are attacked by police, you cannot defend yourself without long-term imprisonment and being shunned from society.

2) Police are much more likely to be targeting you than criminals are. Criminals look for easy marks, or are looking for other criminals, or are looking to do business on the black market. Police are targeting you, waiting for you to perform the wrong action or present the wrong attitude.

3) Police believe what they are doing is moral, and will often act with zeal. They are given accolades and awards from their co-workers, and often given thank you and praise from people in the broader society. Criminals on the other hand often have self-esteem problems, are nervous, or are acting out of desperation and can be deterred or reasoned-down.

4) If you are under attack by police, other people will almost always give them the benefit of the doubt. If you are under attack by criminals, you can raise the alarm and summon other people to help you.

5) Criminals are much more likely to limit the amount of force they will use to achieve their goal. Police will often use escalating force to achieve their goal. They will call in reinforcements, throw bombs in your home to get at you, all kinds of things. Criminals have much more limited resources and limited will than police forces."

In theory, I see the point. But, in practice, criminals are the more dangerous group.
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Citrakayah
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6/17/2013 12:38:58 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 6/16/2013 9:53:36 PM, Wallstreetatheist wrote:
From Dave Kozak

"Police are more dangerous than common criminals because:

1) If you are attacked by criminals, you can defend yourself. If you are attacked by police, you cannot defend yourself without long-term imprisonment and being shunned from society.

2) Police are much more likely to be targeting you than criminals are. Criminals look for easy marks, or are looking for other criminals, or are looking to do business on the black market. Police are targeting you, waiting for you to perform the wrong action or present the wrong attitude.

3) Police believe what they are doing is moral, and will often act with zeal. They are given accolades and awards from their co-workers, and often given thank you and praise from people in the broader society. Criminals on the other hand often have self-esteem problems, are nervous, or are acting out of desperation and can be deterred or reasoned-down.

4) If you are under attack by police, other people will almost always give them the benefit of the doubt. If you are under attack by criminals, you can raise the alarm and summon other people to help you.

5) Criminals are much more likely to limit the amount of force they will use to achieve their goal. Police will often use escalating force to achieve their goal. They will call in reinforcements, throw bombs in your home to get at you, all kinds of things. Criminals have much more limited resources and limited will than police forces."

Tell me, WSA, who have killed more people in the Western world in recent times...

The police?
Or people who have committed crimes?
Wnope
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6/17/2013 12:42:50 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 6/17/2013 12:38:58 PM, Citrakayah wrote:
At 6/16/2013 9:53:36 PM, Wallstreetatheist wrote:
From Dave Kozak

"Police are more dangerous than common criminals because:

1) If you are attacked by criminals, you can defend yourself. If you are attacked by police, you cannot defend yourself without long-term imprisonment and being shunned from society.

2) Police are much more likely to be targeting you than criminals are. Criminals look for easy marks, or are looking for other criminals, or are looking to do business on the black market. Police are targeting you, waiting for you to perform the wrong action or present the wrong attitude.

3) Police believe what they are doing is moral, and will often act with zeal. They are given accolades and awards from their co-workers, and often given thank you and praise from people in the broader society. Criminals on the other hand often have self-esteem problems, are nervous, or are acting out of desperation and can be deterred or reasoned-down.

4) If you are under attack by police, other people will almost always give them the benefit of the doubt. If you are under attack by criminals, you can raise the alarm and summon other people to help you.

5) Criminals are much more likely to limit the amount of force they will use to achieve their goal. Police will often use escalating force to achieve their goal. They will call in reinforcements, throw bombs in your home to get at you, all kinds of things. Criminals have much more limited resources and limited will than police forces."

Tell me, WSA, who have killed more people in the Western world in recent times...

The police?
Or people who have committed crimes?

I will say that relative statistics do change quite a bit when you get rid of the "Western" bit.
drafterman
Posts: 18,870
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6/17/2013 12:48:43 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
Isn't the entire point that the police are more dangerous than criminals?

When I buy a dog I want to guard my house, I want him to be more dangerous than the criminals he is protecting me against.
Citrakayah
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6/17/2013 2:00:53 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 6/17/2013 12:42:50 PM, Wnope wrote:
At 6/17/2013 12:38:58 PM, Citrakayah wrote:
At 6/16/2013 9:53:36 PM, Wallstreetatheist wrote:
From Dave Kozak

"Police are more dangerous than common criminals because:

1) If you are attacked by criminals, you can defend yourself. If you are attacked by police, you cannot defend yourself without long-term imprisonment and being shunned from society.

2) Police are much more likely to be targeting you than criminals are. Criminals look for easy marks, or are looking for other criminals, or are looking to do business on the black market. Police are targeting you, waiting for you to perform the wrong action or present the wrong attitude.

3) Police believe what they are doing is moral, and will often act with zeal. They are given accolades and awards from their co-workers, and often given thank you and praise from people in the broader society. Criminals on the other hand often have self-esteem problems, are nervous, or are acting out of desperation and can be deterred or reasoned-down.

4) If you are under attack by police, other people will almost always give them the benefit of the doubt. If you are under attack by criminals, you can raise the alarm and summon other people to help you.

5) Criminals are much more likely to limit the amount of force they will use to achieve their goal. Police will often use escalating force to achieve their goal. They will call in reinforcements, throw bombs in your home to get at you, all kinds of things. Criminals have much more limited resources and limited will than police forces."

Tell me, WSA, who have killed more people in the Western world in recent times...

The police?
Or people who have committed crimes?

I will say that relative statistics do change quite a bit when you get rid of the "Western" bit.

Sure. But I regard it as somewhat disingenuous to compare junta regimes, where the police are criminals but aren't prosecuted, to our (comparatively) ethical police forces here.
AlbinoBunny
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6/17/2013 2:07:26 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 6/16/2013 9:53:36 PM, Wallstreetatheist wrote:
From Dave Kozak

"Police are more dangerous than common criminals because:

1) If you are attacked by criminals, you can defend yourself. If you are attacked by police, you cannot defend yourself without long-term imprisonment and being shunned from society.

2) Police are much more likely to be targeting you than criminals are. Criminals look for easy marks, or are looking for other criminals, or are looking to do business on the black market. Police are targeting you, waiting for you to perform the wrong action or present the wrong attitude.

3) Police believe what they are doing is moral, and will often act with zeal. They are given accolades and awards from their co-workers, and often given thank you and praise from people in the broader society. Criminals on the other hand often have self-esteem problems, are nervous, or are acting out of desperation and can be deterred or reasoned-down.

4) If you are under attack by police, other people will almost always give them the benefit of the doubt. If you are under attack by criminals, you can raise the alarm and summon other people to help you.

5) Criminals are much more likely to limit the amount of force they will use to achieve their goal. Police will often use escalating force to achieve their goal. They will call in reinforcements, throw bombs in your home to get at you, all kinds of things. Criminals have much more limited resources and limited will than police forces."

Which is why there needs to be strong controls in place. There is a lot let police violence in the UK these days, I believe. Some policemen are also put on trial for excessive force etc.

If your nation allows the police free rein then they are far more dangerous. Crooked cops can easily be more dangerous than most criminals. They have the flip side of if they do end up going to jail, they're in very hot water.
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Stephen_Hawkins
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6/17/2013 2:24:48 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
OP: A proof why evidence is more important than ideology in politics.

We can skew things in many different ways with rhetoric, and this is an obvious example. Let's run through why criminals are more dangerous than police:

1) Policemen follow the laws we enact
2) Policemen have a stricter set of laws to follow than us
3) Policemen are more heavily condemned for rules that they break
4) Policemen when using force use it on criminals

Like all in the OP, these can be statistically questioned. They are falsifiable. So we should look at the statistics.

However, I'd like to add to this: points (1) and (3) rely entirely on a pessimistic ideology against policemen, instead of reason. Are we seriously to believe that because an individual wears a blue shirt and a sheriff's badge, he is now immune from pain? Are we honestly asked to question whether a criminal can harm the police officer?

Again, it is an example of ideology driving politics, not evidence driving ideology.
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Stephen_Hawkins
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6/17/2013 2:27:39 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
I forgot to focus on (3), because its ability to spin is fantastic.

Police officers are just hard working people earning a crust to get home and live their life with their wife and kids: the majority of them won't risk it all simply to beat a civilian to death. By contrast, the dangerous criminals are either mentally unstable or driven by political or philosophical or religious zealotry, who will be more than happy to harm and kill you simply for their own enjoyment, with no care of the consequences.
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Dan4reason
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6/17/2013 4:37:41 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 6/16/2013 9:53:36 PM, Wallstreetatheist wrote:
From Dave Kozak

"Police are more dangerous than common criminals because:

1) If you are attacked by criminals, you can defend yourself. If you are attacked by police, you cannot defend yourself without long-term imprisonment and being shunned from society.

However police will only attack you unless you are resisting arrest. And you are being arrested if you are suspected of doing something wrong.

2) Police are much more likely to be targeting you than criminals are. Criminals look for easy marks, or are looking for other criminals, or are looking to do business on the black market. Police are targeting you, waiting for you to perform the wrong action or present the wrong attitude.

Most of the time police will target you because you are speeding. Come on, do you really want to drive on unsafe streets?

3) Police believe what they are doing is moral, and will often act with zeal. They are given accolades and awards from their co-workers, and often given thank you and praise from people in the broader society. Criminals on the other hand often have self-esteem problems, are nervous, or are acting out of desperation and can be deterred or reasoned-down.

... and most of the time they are doing what is moral, enforcing law and order.

4) If you are under attack by police, other people will almost always give them the benefit of the doubt. If you are under attack by criminals, you can raise the alarm and summon other people to help you.

Yes, but as a said before, police often have a good reason to attack you if they are attacking you.

5) Criminals are much more likely to limit the amount of force they will use to achieve their goal. Police will often use escalating force to achieve their goal. They will call in reinforcements, throw bombs in your home to get at you, all kinds of things. Criminals have much more limited resources and limited will than police forces."

Police will only escalate if you are resisting arrest.

Maybe police are more powerful but it is criminals who do more damage for society. Ask yourself this question, who would you rather do have a BBQ will murders, rapists, and thieves, or with local police officers?
AlbinoBunny
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6/17/2013 4:44:20 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 6/17/2013 4:37:41 PM, Dan4reason wrote:

Ask yourself this question[;]
who would you rather do have a BBQ wi[th], [with] murders, rapists, and thieves,
or with local police officers?

Love it.
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AlbinoBunny
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6/17/2013 4:45:08 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 6/17/2013 4:44:20 PM, AlbinoBunny wrote:
At 6/17/2013 4:37:41 PM, Dan4reason wrote:

Ask yourself this question[;]
who would you rather do have a BBQ wi[th], [with] murders, rapists, and thieves,
or with local police officers?

Love it.

Do remember though, he did say "common criminals". So maybe just the thieves.
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Wallstreetatheist
Posts: 7,132
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6/18/2013 8:12:11 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
I don't agree with Dave, I just thought it was an interesting perspective. There are good police officers (many disobey unjustifiable laws) and bad police officers (murderous psychopaths). Common criminals (notwithstanding the swaths of criminals without victims like potheads and the like) are by definition harming victims in some way (also, one has to discount the role police play in victimization and assume 100% accuracy in apprehension).
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Ragnar_Rahl
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6/18/2013 9:14:01 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
I seem to recall a case in Florida where self defense against cop was considered a valid defense.
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Wnope
Posts: 6,924
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6/19/2013 12:45:01 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 6/17/2013 2:00:53 PM, Citrakayah wrote:
At 6/17/2013 12:42:50 PM, Wnope wrote:
At 6/17/2013 12:38:58 PM, Citrakayah wrote:
At 6/16/2013 9:53:36 PM, Wallstreetatheist wrote:
From Dave Kozak

"Police are more dangerous than common criminals because:

1) If you are attacked by criminals, you can defend yourself. If you are attacked by police, you cannot defend yourself without long-term imprisonment and being shunned from society.

2) Police are much more likely to be targeting you than criminals are. Criminals look for easy marks, or are looking for other criminals, or are looking to do business on the black market. Police are targeting you, waiting for you to perform the wrong action or present the wrong attitude.

3) Police believe what they are doing is moral, and will often act with zeal. They are given accolades and awards from their co-workers, and often given thank you and praise from people in the broader society. Criminals on the other hand often have self-esteem problems, are nervous, or are acting out of desperation and can be deterred or reasoned-down.

4) If you are under attack by police, other people will almost always give them the benefit of the doubt. If you are under attack by criminals, you can raise the alarm and summon other people to help you.

5) Criminals are much more likely to limit the amount of force they will use to achieve their goal. Police will often use escalating force to achieve their goal. They will call in reinforcements, throw bombs in your home to get at you, all kinds of things. Criminals have much more limited resources and limited will than police forces."

Tell me, WSA, who have killed more people in the Western world in recent times...

The police?
Or people who have committed crimes?

I will say that relative statistics do change quite a bit when you get rid of the "Western" bit.

Sure. But I regard it as somewhat disingenuous to compare junta regimes, where the police are criminals but aren't prosecuted, to our (comparatively) ethical police forces here.

True. The OP basically plays with a known cognitive error called "base rate bias."

Namely, it assumes policemen essentially choose members of the population at random and beat them for no good reason.

If you include the priori conditional of "people likely to be targeted by the police" then suddenly the "dangerousness" of the average policeman to the average citizen disappears.

All that leaves is "policemen are more dangerous for criminals than other criminals" which, when it comes to punishment, is probably NOT true.
Wnope
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6/19/2013 12:47:51 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
Also, say what you like about a policeman's mental state, but they go through a lot of psych evals. Compared to the population of criminals, mental illness rates for police are disproportionately low compared to criminals or the average citizen (due to screening effects).

Most of the problem is on the level of police culture, not individual policemen playing sadist. Chicago, for instance, has had a perpetual problem because their entire chain of command refuses to acknowledge abuses, the "Blue Code of Silence" as it is called. This has not been the case in areas where the police officers are responsive towards complaints of abuse.