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Should I become a libertarian?

AlbinoBunny
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6/22/2013 2:44:08 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
Why / why not?
bladerunner060 | bsh1 , 2014! Presidency campaign!

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AlbinoBunny
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6/22/2013 3:04:46 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 6/22/2013 2:50:10 PM, Khaos_Mage wrote:
If you value freedom over security, yes.

Hypothetical freedom or real freedom?
bladerunner060 | bsh1 , 2014! Presidency campaign!

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DetectableNinja
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6/22/2013 3:08:10 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
That all depends on what you believe or value.

We could PM about it, or you could do your own research, but honestly, it's really about just seeing what your beliefs line up with.
Think'st thou heaven is such a glorious thing?
I tell thee, 'tis not half so fair as thou
Or any man that breathes on earth.

- Christopher Marlowe, Doctor Faustus
000ike
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6/22/2013 3:10:28 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 6/22/2013 3:08:10 PM, DetectableNinja wrote:
That all depends on what you believe or value.

We could PM about it, or you could do your own research, but honestly, it's really about just seeing what your beliefs line up with.

I don't think he was asking about what ideology best fits his current beliefs. He wants an objective defense of libertarianism - as in, "how is libertarianism more right than every other ideology?"
"A stupid despot may constrain his slaves with iron chains; but a true politician binds them even more strongly with the chain of their own ideas" - Michel Foucault
Noumena
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6/22/2013 3:15:06 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
What kind of libertarian?
: At 5/13/2014 7:05:20 PM, Crescendo wrote:
: The difference is that the gay movement is currently pushing their will on Churches, as shown in the link to gay marriage in Denmark. Meanwhile, the Inquisition ended several centuries ago.
000ike
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6/22/2013 3:19:01 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 6/22/2013 3:15:06 PM, Noumena wrote:
What kind of libertarian?

good, you're online. Would you mind responding back here? http://www.debate.org...
"A stupid despot may constrain his slaves with iron chains; but a true politician binds them even more strongly with the chain of their own ideas" - Michel Foucault
Mirza
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6/22/2013 3:19:45 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
If you value individualism and freedom -- then you're placing value on libertarianism.

I used to despise libertarianism in its complete form - I've changed mind on it. I think ideological laws are the way to go.
Stephen_Hawkins
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6/22/2013 3:27:03 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 6/22/2013 3:22:48 PM, OMGJustinBieber wrote:
Libertarianism is a gateway drug to anarcho-capitalism; stay away.

This. It's what armchair political philosophers (by and large, there are exceptions) support because they see the word "freedom" and remember they're supposed to like it. Authoritarianism is at least explicit.

Remember: Freedom has two meanings: the negative and the positive. If you think the rich man ought not have more liberty than the poor out of the virtue of only being rich, then being libertarian is very difficult.
Give a man a fish, he'll eat for a day. Teach him how to be Gay, he'll positively influence the GDP.

Social Contract Theory debate: http://www.debate.org...
AlbinoBunny
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6/22/2013 3:36:56 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
"According to the U.S. Libertarian Party, libertarianism is the advocacy of a government that is funded voluntarily and limited to protecting individuals from coercion and violence."

Roads and science etc. should be handled privately?
bladerunner060 | bsh1 , 2014! Presidency campaign!

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dylancatlow
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6/22/2013 3:38:02 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 6/22/2013 3:27:03 PM, Stephen_Hawkins wrote:
At 6/22/2013 3:22:48 PM, OMGJustinBieber wrote:
Libertarianism is a gateway drug to anarcho-capitalism; stay away.

This. It's what armchair political philosophers (by and large, there are exceptions) support because they see the word "freedom" and remember they're supposed to like it. Authoritarianism is at least explicit.

Remember: Freedom has two meanings: the negative and the positive. If you think the rich man ought not have more liberty than the poor out of the virtue of only being rich, then being libertarian is very difficult.

Are you taking about anarcho-capatalism now, or have you horribly misconstrued the definition of 'liberty' and applied it to libertarianism?
Noumena
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6/22/2013 3:40:30 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 6/22/2013 3:22:48 PM, OMGJustinBieber wrote:
Libertarianism is a gateway drug to anarcho-capitalism; stay away.

One form at least. Says nothing about currents of left-libertarianism though.
: At 5/13/2014 7:05:20 PM, Crescendo wrote:
: The difference is that the gay movement is currently pushing their will on Churches, as shown in the link to gay marriage in Denmark. Meanwhile, the Inquisition ended several centuries ago.
DetectableNinja
Posts: 6,043
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6/22/2013 3:42:47 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 6/22/2013 3:36:56 PM, AlbinoBunny wrote:
"According to the U.S. Libertarian Party, libertarianism is the advocacy of a government that is funded voluntarily and limited to protecting individuals from coercion and violence."

Roads and science etc. should be handled privately?

I think IDEALLY, yes, but now they really tend to be more gradual in what measures they want.
Think'st thou heaven is such a glorious thing?
I tell thee, 'tis not half so fair as thou
Or any man that breathes on earth.

- Christopher Marlowe, Doctor Faustus
OMGJustinBieber
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6/22/2013 3:43:04 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 6/22/2013 3:40:30 PM, Noumena wrote:
At 6/22/2013 3:22:48 PM, OMGJustinBieber wrote:
Libertarianism is a gateway drug to anarcho-capitalism; stay away.

One form at least. Says nothing about currents of left-libertarianism though.

Left-libertarianism isn't normally what's meant by "libertarianism." What would we say left-libertarianism is a gateway drug to? Maybe communism? An appetite for Chomsky?
000ike
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6/22/2013 3:43:22 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 6/22/2013 3:38:02 PM, dylancatlow wrote:
At 6/22/2013 3:27:03 PM, Stephen_Hawkins wrote:
At 6/22/2013 3:22:48 PM, OMGJustinBieber wrote:
Libertarianism is a gateway drug to anarcho-capitalism; stay away.

This. It's what armchair political philosophers (by and large, there are exceptions) support because they see the word "freedom" and remember they're supposed to like it. Authoritarianism is at least explicit.

Remember: Freedom has two meanings: the negative and the positive. If you think the rich man ought not have more liberty than the poor out of the virtue of only being rich, then being libertarian is very difficult.

Are you taking about anarcho-capatalism now, or have you horribly misconstrued the definition of 'liberty' and applied it to libertarianism?

How did he misconstrue liberty? Freedom is causally bifurcated - the freedom to kill results in the loss of the freedom to live. The freedom to influence society with money results in the loss of the freedom to influence society with one's voice. Where freedom gives, it takes away elsewhere.
"A stupid despot may constrain his slaves with iron chains; but a true politician binds them even more strongly with the chain of their own ideas" - Michel Foucault
AlbinoBunny
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6/22/2013 3:52:08 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 6/22/2013 3:43:22 PM, 000ike wrote:
At 6/22/2013 3:38:02 PM, dylancatlow wrote:
At 6/22/2013 3:27:03 PM, Stephen_Hawkins wrote:
At 6/22/2013 3:22:48 PM, OMGJustinBieber wrote:
Libertarianism is a gateway drug to anarcho-capitalism; stay away.

This. It's what armchair political philosophers (by and large, there are exceptions) support because they see the word "freedom" and remember they're supposed to like it. Authoritarianism is at least explicit.

Remember: Freedom has two meanings: the negative and the positive. If you think the rich man ought not have more liberty than the poor out of the virtue of only being rich, then being libertarian is very difficult.

Are you taking about anarcho-capatalism now, or have you horribly misconstrued the definition of 'liberty' and applied it to libertarianism?

How did he misconstrue liberty? Freedom is causally bifurcated - the freedom to kill results in the loss of the freedom to live. The freedom to influence society with money results in the loss of the freedom to influence society with one's voice. Where freedom gives, it takes away elsewhere.

This may be true, but I don't think it's necessarily an absolutely zero-sum game.
bladerunner060 | bsh1 , 2014! Presidency campaign!

http://www.debate.org...
http://www.debate.org... - Running for president.
http://www.debate.org... - Running as his vice president.

May the best man win!
RyuuKyuzo
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6/22/2013 3:52:42 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 6/22/2013 3:36:56 PM, AlbinoBunny wrote:
"According to the U.S. Libertarian Party, libertarianism is the advocacy of a government that is funded voluntarily and limited to protecting individuals from coercion and violence."

Roads and science etc. should be handled privately?

http://walkingchristian.com...
If you're reading this, you're awesome and you should feel awesome.
AlbinoBunny
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6/22/2013 4:06:20 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 6/22/2013 3:52:42 PM, RyuuKyuzo wrote:
At 6/22/2013 3:36:56 PM, AlbinoBunny wrote:
"According to the U.S. Libertarian Party, libertarianism is the advocacy of a government that is funded voluntarily and limited to protecting individuals from coercion and violence."

Roads and science etc. should be handled privately?

http://walkingchristian.com...

LOL! They do need upkeep too. Unless you love potholes of course.
bladerunner060 | bsh1 , 2014! Presidency campaign!

http://www.debate.org...
http://www.debate.org... - Running for president.
http://www.debate.org... - Running as his vice president.

May the best man win!
dylancatlow
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6/22/2013 4:16:39 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
"Remember: Freedom has two meanings: the negative and the positive. If you think the rich man ought not have more liberty than the poor out of the virtue of only being rich, then being libertarian is very difficult."

Stephen, could I ask what precisely you mean by this?
dylancatlow
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6/22/2013 4:21:10 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 6/22/2013 3:43:22 PM, 000ike wrote:
At 6/22/2013 3:38:02 PM, dylancatlow wrote:
At 6/22/2013 3:27:03 PM, Stephen_Hawkins wrote:
At 6/22/2013 3:22:48 PM, OMGJustinBieber wrote:
Libertarianism is a gateway drug to anarcho-capitalism; stay away.

This. It's what armchair political philosophers (by and large, there are exceptions) support because they see the word "freedom" and remember they're supposed to like it. Authoritarianism is at least explicit.

Remember: Freedom has two meanings: the negative and the positive. If you think the rich man ought not have more liberty than the poor out of the virtue of only being rich, then being libertarian is very difficult.

Are you taking about anarcho-capatalism now, or have you horribly misconstrued the definition of 'liberty' and applied it to libertarianism?

How did he misconstrue liberty? Freedom is causally bifurcated - the freedom to kill results in the loss of the freedom to live. The freedom to influence society with money results in the loss of the freedom to influence society with one's voice. Where freedom gives, it takes away elsewhere.

You're equating freedoms without any regard to rights with freedoms predicated on them. For the latter, there is no clash.
000ike
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6/22/2013 4:30:33 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 6/22/2013 4:21:10 PM, dylancatlow wrote:
At 6/22/2013 3:43:22 PM, 000ike wrote:
At 6/22/2013 3:38:02 PM, dylancatlow wrote:
At 6/22/2013 3:27:03 PM, Stephen_Hawkins wrote:
At 6/22/2013 3:22:48 PM, OMGJustinBieber wrote:
Libertarianism is a gateway drug to anarcho-capitalism; stay away.

This. It's what armchair political philosophers (by and large, there are exceptions) support because they see the word "freedom" and remember they're supposed to like it. Authoritarianism is at least explicit.

Remember: Freedom has two meanings: the negative and the positive. If you think the rich man ought not have more liberty than the poor out of the virtue of only being rich, then being libertarian is very difficult.

Are you taking about anarcho-capatalism now, or have you horribly misconstrued the definition of 'liberty' and applied it to libertarianism?

How did he misconstrue liberty? Freedom is causally bifurcated - the freedom to kill results in the loss of the freedom to live. The freedom to influence society with money results in the loss of the freedom to influence society with one's voice. Where freedom gives, it takes away elsewhere.

You're equating freedoms without any regard to rights with freedoms predicated on them. For the latter, there is no clash.

What? We're discussing freedom purelyin itself. That's what I presume Stephen_Hawkins was talking about when he said that freedom has two meanings.
"A stupid despot may constrain his slaves with iron chains; but a true politician binds them even more strongly with the chain of their own ideas" - Michel Foucault
dylancatlow
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6/22/2013 4:37:39 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
"The state of being free within society from oppressive restrictions imposed by authority on one's way of life"

That's the definition of 'liberty' I was operating with.
AlbinoBunny
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6/22/2013 4:44:52 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 6/22/2013 4:37:39 PM, dylancatlow wrote:
"The state of being free within society from oppressive restrictions imposed by authority on one's way of life"

That's the definition of 'liberty' I was operating with.

So if one's way of life was serial killing?
bladerunner060 | bsh1 , 2014! Presidency campaign!

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http://www.debate.org... - Running for president.
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May the best man win!
Mirza
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6/22/2013 4:46:06 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 6/22/2013 4:44:52 PM, AlbinoBunny wrote:
So if one's way of life was serial killing?
Libertarianism goes by the non-aggression principle -- you're free to act as you wish, unless you attempt to take away the same right from others.
dylancatlow
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6/22/2013 4:46:56 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 6/22/2013 4:44:52 PM, AlbinoBunny wrote:
At 6/22/2013 4:37:39 PM, dylancatlow wrote:
"The state of being free within society from oppressive restrictions imposed by authority on one's way of life"

That's the definition of 'liberty' I was operating with.

So if one's way of life was serial killing?

Too bad for them.
AlbinoBunny
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6/22/2013 4:51:22 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 6/22/2013 3:42:47 PM, DetectableNinja wrote:
At 6/22/2013 3:36:56 PM, AlbinoBunny wrote:
"According to the U.S. Libertarian Party, libertarianism is the advocacy of a government that is funded voluntarily and limited to protecting individuals from coercion and violence."

Roads and science etc. should be handled privately?

I think IDEALLY, yes, but now they really tend to be more gradual in what measures they want.

So would we just pay the guy who makes the road instead? How would that be enforced, how would competition be created, how could we ensure the owner of the road doesn't close it or discriminate?
bladerunner060 | bsh1 , 2014! Presidency campaign!

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http://www.debate.org... - Running for president.
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May the best man win!
AlbinoBunny
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6/22/2013 4:53:58 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 6/22/2013 4:46:56 PM, dylancatlow wrote:
At 6/22/2013 4:44:52 PM, AlbinoBunny wrote:
At 6/22/2013 4:37:39 PM, dylancatlow wrote:
"The state of being free within society from oppressive restrictions imposed by authority on one's way of life"

That's the definition of 'liberty' I was operating with.

So if one's way of life was serial killing?

Too bad for them.

Your definition didn't forbid violence, it isn't that bad for them.
bladerunner060 | bsh1 , 2014! Presidency campaign!

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May the best man win!
Izayah003
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6/22/2013 4:59:26 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
do you like the Movie Mad Max, and would you support it's view of the world? if so then by all means become one since that is the future should they become the majority *smiles*
"When a man who is honestly mistaken hears the truth, he will either quit being mistaken or cease to be honest." - Abraham Lincoln
Noumena
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6/22/2013 5:02:08 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 6/22/2013 4:59:26 PM, Izayah003 wrote:
do you like the Movie Mad Max, and would you support it's view of the world? if so then by all means become one since that is the future should they become the majority *smiles*

http://www.myfacewhen.net...
: At 5/13/2014 7:05:20 PM, Crescendo wrote:
: The difference is that the gay movement is currently pushing their will on Churches, as shown in the link to gay marriage in Denmark. Meanwhile, the Inquisition ended several centuries ago.