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What should become of Eric Snowden?

YYW
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6/24/2013 11:00:26 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
Should he be tried for treason? Should he be held in a CIA holding facility at an undisclosed location for an indefinite period of time? Should he be executed? Should he be celebrated as a hero who acted on behalf of the people's best interest? Should he be granted asylum in South America or Russia?

What do you think?
Tsar of DDO
BennyW
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6/24/2013 11:07:11 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
He should be hailed a hero in the same way deep throat was.
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It's pretty lazy to quote things you disagree with, call it stupid and move on, rather than arguing with the person. -000ike
YYW
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6/24/2013 11:07:36 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 6/24/2013 11:07:11 PM, BennyW wrote:
He should be hailed a hero in the same way deep throat was.

Why?
Tsar of DDO
Noumena
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6/24/2013 11:12:53 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 6/24/2013 11:07:36 PM, YYW wrote:
At 6/24/2013 11:07:11 PM, BennyW wrote:
He should be hailed a hero in the same way deep throat was.

Why?

Which of the things listed are you inquiring into?
: At 5/13/2014 7:05:20 PM, Crescendo wrote:
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OMGJustinBieber
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6/24/2013 11:13:47 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
I would definitely hold him accountable. It's imperative that the US get their hands on him given the nature and severity of his offense; a treason charge seems plausible.
YYW
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6/24/2013 11:14:41 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 6/24/2013 11:12:53 PM, Noumena wrote:
At 6/24/2013 11:07:36 PM, YYW wrote:
At 6/24/2013 11:07:11 PM, BennyW wrote:
He should be hailed a hero in the same way deep throat was.

Why?

Which of the things listed are you inquiring into?

Both.
Tsar of DDO
1Devilsadvocate
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6/24/2013 11:25:12 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
He should be tried ... as a juvenile delinquent :P
I never understood why people (other than terrorists) even care if the government is spying on us. If you have nothing to hide, then a) they probably won't even look into you, and b) even if they do, who cares?
I cannot write in English, because of the treacherous spelling. When I am reading, I only hear it and am unable to remember what the written word looks like."
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YYW
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6/24/2013 11:38:05 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 6/24/2013 11:25:12 PM, 1Devilsadvocate wrote:
He should be tried ... as a juvenile delinquent :P
I never understood why people (other than terrorists) even care if the government is spying on us. If you have nothing to hide, then a) they probably won't even look into you, and b) even if they do, who cares?

People feel less free if they are being observed, their behavior and actions recorded, their lives kept record of by an external watching eye.
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1Devilsadvocate
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6/24/2013 11:44:11 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 6/24/2013 11:38:05 PM, YYW wrote:
At 6/24/2013 11:25:12 PM, 1Devilsadvocate wrote:
He should be tried ... as a juvenile delinquent :P
I never understood why people (other than terrorists) even care if the government is spying on us. If you have nothing to hide, then a) they probably won't even look into you, and b) even if they do, who cares?

People feel less free if they are being observed, their behavior and actions recorded, their lives kept record of by an external watching eye.

People feel less free if they know that they are being observed, their behavior and actions recorded, their lives kept record of by an external watching eye.

In this case, what we didn't know, didn't hurt us. So basically, Snowden accomplished nothing, and made (paranoid) people feel less free (than they really are) for no good reason.
Good job Snowden!
I cannot write in English, because of the treacherous spelling. When I am reading, I only hear it and am unable to remember what the written word looks like."
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OMGJustinBieber
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6/24/2013 11:47:49 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 6/24/2013 11:25:12 PM, 1Devilsadvocate wrote:
He should be tried ... as a juvenile delinquent :P
I never understood why people (other than terrorists) even care if the government is spying on us. If you have nothing to hide, then a) they probably won't even look into you, and b) even if they do, who cares?

The key word here is "probably" - you don't really know, do you? It's really just faith on your part, and I'd be interested to know whether you place this kind of faith in private civilians who would have this kind of access to personal info (I'm going away from the Snowden case here.)

Regardless, this isn't an attitude that's going to allow and maintain a free society.
1Devilsadvocate
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6/25/2013 12:08:32 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 6/24/2013 11:47:49 PM, OMGJustinBieber wrote:
At 6/24/2013 11:25:12 PM, 1Devilsadvocate wrote:
He should be tried ... as a juvenile delinquent :P
I never understood why people (other than terrorists) even care if the government is spying on us. If you have nothing to hide, then a) they probably won't even look into you, and b) even if they do, who cares?

The key word here is "probably" - you don't really know, do you? It's really just faith on your part, and I'd be interested to know whether you place this kind of faith in private civilians who would have this kind of access to personal info (I'm going away from the Snowden case here.)

1) My faith is based on:
a) This has been going on, on a large scale, for a long time and there haven't been any incidents.
b) These are not "private civilians", they are people with security clearance. People with security clearance have access to much more sensitive material, that can affect the entire country.
c) The NSA is highly motivated to make sure that no such incidence occurs, and they have quite a number of ways of making sure.

2) "Probably" is sufficient, there is no evidence that would justify stopping the NSA.

( 3) Even if there is a risk of a few incidents happening, national security is more important.)

Regardless, this isn't an attitude that's going to allow and maintain a free society.

(Slippery slope)
What attitude? What's wrong with not caring about invasion of privacy that has no negative consequence?
I cannot write in English, because of the treacherous spelling. When I am reading, I only hear it and am unable to remember what the written word looks like."
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Skepsikyma
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6/25/2013 12:23:03 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
I usually hate how overused Orwellian terminology is, but the trying someone for espionage after they disclose the existence of a civilian espionage program is quintessential doublethink. The fact that so many people accept it without blinking just confirms my misanthropic tendencies towards the general population.
"The Collectivist experiment is thoroughly suited (in appearance at least) to the Capitalist society which it proposes to replace. It works with the existing machinery of Capitalism, talks and thinks in the existing terms of Capitalism, appeals to just those appetites which Capitalism has aroused, and ridicules as fantastic and unheard-of just those things in society the memory of which Capitalism has killed among men wherever the blight of it has spread."
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AlbinoBunny
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6/25/2013 12:35:04 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 6/25/2013 12:23:03 AM, Skepsikyma wrote:
I usually hate how overused Orwellian terminology is, but the trying someone for espionage after they disclose the existence of a civilian espionage program is quintessential doublethink. The fact that so many people accept it without blinking just confirms my misanthropic tendencies towards the general population.
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Ore_Ele
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6/25/2013 12:43:07 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 6/24/2013 11:44:11 PM, 1Devilsadvocate wrote:
At 6/24/2013 11:38:05 PM, YYW wrote:
At 6/24/2013 11:25:12 PM, 1Devilsadvocate wrote:
He should be tried ... as a juvenile delinquent :P
I never understood why people (other than terrorists) even care if the government is spying on us. If you have nothing to hide, then a) they probably won't even look into you, and b) even if they do, who cares?

People feel less free if they are being observed, their behavior and actions recorded, their lives kept record of by an external watching eye.

People feel less free if they know that they are being observed, their behavior and actions recorded, their lives kept record of by an external watching eye.

In this case, what we didn't know, didn't hurt us. So basically, Snowden accomplished nothing, and made (paranoid) people feel less free (than they really are) for no good reason.
Good job Snowden!

It is actually "if they believe" rather than "if they know."
"Wanting Red Rhino Pill to have gender"
Ore_Ele
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6/25/2013 12:52:29 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 6/24/2013 11:47:49 PM, OMGJustinBieber wrote:
At 6/24/2013 11:25:12 PM, 1Devilsadvocate wrote:
He should be tried ... as a juvenile delinquent :P
I never understood why people (other than terrorists) even care if the government is spying on us. If you have nothing to hide, then a) they probably won't even look into you, and b) even if they do, who cares?

The key word here is "probably" - you don't really know, do you? It's really just faith on your part, and I'd be interested to know whether you place this kind of faith in private civilians who would have this kind of access to personal info (I'm going away from the Snowden case here.)

Do you know how many private people have your private info? When I was 18, I worked at a paycheck loan store. I got bank account info, driver's licences, social security numbers, paychecks, etc from dozens of people every single day. There are several people at my work, my bank, every place that I've ever taken out a loan or line of credit that have my personal information. Every place that they sold my debts and information to that has it all. Every time I go to a hospital. You give out your "personal and private" just to interact with society on a daily basis.

The issue is not who has what "private" information, but what they do with it. I could care less if some intern in the CIA had bugs in my house to see if I was a terrorist.

The way I see it, the government can come into my house every day while I'm at work and search for any illegal activity they want, so long as they put everything back when they are done and don't cause any inconvenience to my life or my family's life.


Regardless, this isn't an attitude that's going to allow and maintain a free society.

1) "free" is subjective, depending on one's views of rights.

2) Why not? Just like I have no right to not be fearful of gun toting rednecks, why should anyone else have a right to not be fearful of camera wielding government agents?
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darkkermit
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6/25/2013 1:03:06 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
Depends on whose perspective your talking about. I applaud Eric Snowden for what he did, but it would seem in the gov't best interest to try him for treason. Maybe the gov't will be account to the people's will,but eh.
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Ore_Ele
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6/25/2013 1:17:33 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 6/25/2013 1:03:06 AM, darkkermit wrote:
Depends on whose perspective your talking about. I applaud Eric Snowden for what he did, but it would seem in the gov't best interest to try him for treason. Maybe the gov't will be account to the people's will,but eh.

Since June 9th, when the leak was first released, Obama's approval is down about 2.6% (from -.3 to -2.9). Congress is only down 1.8% (though it can't really get much lower). And the direction of the country is only down 2%. The people don't really care that much. They are more interested in the drama, rather than the implications.

Source: RCP
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darkkermit
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6/25/2013 1:29:48 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 6/25/2013 1:17:33 AM, Ore_Ele wrote:
At 6/25/2013 1:03:06 AM, darkkermit wrote:
Depends on whose perspective your talking about. I applaud Eric Snowden for what he did, but it would seem in the gov't best interest to try him for treason. Maybe the gov't will be account to the people's will,but eh.

Since June 9th, when the leak was first released, Obama's approval is down about 2.6% (from -.3 to -2.9). Congress is only down 1.8% (though it can't really get much lower). And the direction of the country is only down 2%. The people don't really care that much. They are more interested in the drama, rather than the implications.

Source: RCP

Still a fall. However, they still might not want Eric Snowden prosecuted. But it would be foolish for the gov't not to prosecute him unless there was strong objections to it.
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slo1
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6/25/2013 8:37:53 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 6/24/2013 11:25:12 PM, 1Devilsadvocate wrote:
He should be tried ... as a juvenile delinquent :P
I never understood why people (other than terrorists) even care if the government is spying on us. If you have nothing to hide, then a) they probably won't even look into you, and b) even if they do, who cares?

That is rather short sited. How do you feel if the government is spying on you because you put forward an application for a tax free status for an organization you are starting up? You don't have anything to hide, why would you care?
slo1
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6/25/2013 8:41:26 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 6/25/2013 8:37:53 AM, slo1 wrote:
At 6/24/2013 11:25:12 PM, 1Devilsadvocate wrote:
He should be tried ... as a juvenile delinquent :P
I never understood why people (other than terrorists) even care if the government is spying on us. If you have nothing to hide, then a) they probably won't even look into you, and b) even if they do, who cares?

That is rather short sighted. How do you feel if the government is spying on you because you put forward an application for a tax free status for an organization you are starting up? You don't have anything to hide, why would you care?

correction
YYW
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6/25/2013 9:07:20 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 6/25/2013 1:29:48 AM, darkkermit wrote:
At 6/25/2013 1:17:33 AM, Ore_Ele wrote:
At 6/25/2013 1:03:06 AM, darkkermit wrote:
Depends on whose perspective your talking about. I applaud Eric Snowden for what he did, but it would seem in the gov't best interest to try him for treason. Maybe the gov't will be account to the people's will,but eh.

Even if it was the case that the NSA was unconstitutionally monitoring US citizens within US borders, don't you think that he should have tried to address his concerns internally rather than exposing state secrets to the world?

Since June 9th, when the leak was first released, Obama's approval is down about 2.6% (from -.3 to -2.9). Congress is only down 1.8% (though it can't really get much lower). And the direction of the country is only down 2%. The people don't really care that much. They are more interested in the drama, rather than the implications.

Source: RCP

Who is "they" in this case?

Still a fall. However, they still might not want Eric Snowden prosecuted. But it would be foolish for the gov't not to prosecute him unless there was strong objections to it.

I'm quite sure if the White House (and its incompetent legal team) can manage to return Snowden to the United States that he will stand trial as a traitor for precisely the reason you've articulated above.
Tsar of DDO
YYW
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6/25/2013 9:09:29 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 6/24/2013 11:44:11 PM, 1Devilsadvocate wrote:
At 6/24/2013 11:38:05 PM, YYW wrote:
At 6/24/2013 11:25:12 PM, 1Devilsadvocate wrote:
He should be tried ... as a juvenile delinquent :P
I never understood why people (other than terrorists) even care if the government is spying on us. If you have nothing to hide, then a) they probably won't even look into you, and b) even if they do, who cares?

People feel less free if they are being observed, their behavior and actions recorded, their lives kept record of by an external watching eye.

People feel less free if they know that they are being observed, their behavior and actions recorded, their lives kept record of by an external watching eye.

Indeed.

In this case, what we didn't know, didn't hurt us. So basically, Snowden accomplished nothing, and made (paranoid) people feel less free (than they really are) for no good reason.

Are you sure about that? If the NSA was unconstitutionally violating citizens' right to privacy and Snowden exposed that, don't you think he at least accomplished something (good or bad)?

Good job Snowden!

I think he's an arrogant little fuckwit, but that's just my opinion.
Tsar of DDO
Stephen_Hawkins
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6/25/2013 9:29:37 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 6/24/2013 11:25:12 PM, 1Devilsadvocate wrote:
He should be tried ... as a juvenile delinquent :P
I never understood why people (other than terrorists) even care if the government is spying on us. If you have nothing to hide, then a) they probably won't even look into you, and b) even if they do, who cares?

Because:

1) The principle of governments acting ultra vires, or any agency acting ultra vires, removes the legitimacy of their action, as the people have not consented.
2) Any individual having so much power is governments abusing their power, and as "power tends to corrupt, and absolute power corrupts absolutely", this is a severe problem.
3) The government is also incapable idiots when it comes to technology as well. They abuse and overreach what they do, hacking our telephones spending millions reading facebook posts instead of doing anything meaningful.

Oh, and finally, and most obviously, I don't want them to. It's the equivalent of having someone hovering over your shoulder as you go about your daily business, which ignoring the tangible or rational evidence, the emotive and intuitive effect is that of claustrophobia and oppression. Which is bad.
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JustCheNo
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6/25/2013 9:30:44 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
What do you think?

A secret account should be opened to financially support him for the rest of his life and to reward him for exposing the massive corruption of the Obama administration.

He should also merge with Wikileaks and Anonymous to continue his patriotic endeavors to publicly expose and embarrass the criminal elite.
"I will continue to enforce all the laws, including illegal immigration. Nothing changes." - Sheriff Joe Arpaio (American hero)
JustCheNo
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6/25/2013 9:33:54 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 6/24/2013 11:25:12 PM, 1Devilsadvocate wrote:
I never understood why people (other than terrorists) even care if the government is spying on us.

WOW, the ignorance of some people is way beyond shocking.
"I will continue to enforce all the laws, including illegal immigration. Nothing changes." - Sheriff Joe Arpaio (American hero)
benevolent
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6/25/2013 9:34:08 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 6/25/2013 9:30:44 AM, JustCheNo wrote:
What do you think?

A secret account should be opened to financially support him for the rest of his life and to reward him for exposing the massive corruption of the Obama administration.

He should also merge with Wikileaks and Anonymous to continue his patriotic endeavors to publicly expose and embarrass the criminal elite.

Sounds like he was quite the hero all right.
000ike
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6/25/2013 9:35:08 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
I don't understand the logic of the people who don't want the US to prosecute Snowden. So we all just get to spill government secrets and government will throw its hands in the air and let you get away with it? I like Snowden's cause would like for him to get away with it, but It's ludicrous for me to fault the U.S government for following him. Provided that he doesn't just unnecessarily target the U.S but exposes corruption among ALL the power-bearing nations on this planet what he's doing is a good thing.
"A stupid despot may constrain his slaves with iron chains; but a true politician binds them even more strongly with the chain of their own ideas" - Michel Foucault
benevolent
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6/25/2013 9:42:42 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 6/25/2013 9:35:08 AM, 000ike wrote:
I don't understand the logic of the people who don't want the US to prosecute Snowden. So we all just get to spill government secrets and government will throw its hands in the air and let you get away with it? I like Snowden's cause would like for him to get away with it, but It's ludicrous for me to fault the U.S government for following him. Provided that he doesn't just unnecessarily target the U.S but exposes corruption among ALL the power-bearing nations on this planet what he's doing is a good thing.

Dude, what he did was for the US, not against it. You might consider it that maybe he felt your representative government wasn't properly representing him, or anyone else for that matter, and, then, that this is the sort of thing everyone should decide on, not just your government, or the corruption just continues. Democracy, dude.
JustCheNo
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6/25/2013 9:47:20 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 6/25/2013 9:35:08 AM, 000ike wrote:
I don't understand the logic of the people who don't want the US to prosecute Snowden.

You don't like Snowden stealing secrets from the U.S. government but you're perfectly OK with the government spying on the American people, without warrant or probable cause. What logical sense does THAT make?
"I will continue to enforce all the laws, including illegal immigration. Nothing changes." - Sheriff Joe Arpaio (American hero)