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Issues of Universal Agreement

Jo2599
Posts: 9
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6/28/2013 11:07:58 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
Basically, let's come up with a list of issues that liberals, conservatives, libertarians, and independents can all agree upon.

The United States is a very divided nation politically. But I think we can come together and voice our universal concerns over Government.
sadolite
Posts: 8,838
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6/28/2013 11:37:43 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
Can't think of one damn thing, except maybe self segregation. Everyone hates one another and can't stand each other. This planet isn't big enough for socialists and capitalists to co exist without eventual war. Spread the wealth said the socialist, over my dead body said the capitalist OK, said the socialist. Then war.
It's not your views that divide us, it's what you think my views should be that divides us.

If you think I will give up my rights and forsake social etiquette to make you "FEEL" better you are sadly mistaken

If liberal democrats would just stop shooting people gun violence would drop by 90%
Ore_Ele
Posts: 25,980
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6/29/2013 1:09:33 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 6/28/2013 11:07:58 PM, Jo2599 wrote:
Basically, let's come up with a list of issues that liberals, conservatives, libertarians, and independents can all agree upon.

Well screw you too.


The United States is a very divided nation politically. But I think we can come together and voice our universal concerns over Government.

The issue isn't so much recognizing the problem, but the proposed solutions.
"Wanting Red Rhino Pill to have gender"
wrichcirw
Posts: 11,196
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6/29/2013 1:56:22 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 6/28/2013 11:07:58 PM, Jo2599 wrote:
Basically, let's come up with a list of issues that liberals, conservatives, libertarians, and independents can all agree upon.

The United States is a very divided nation politically. But I think we can come together and voice our universal concerns over Government.

That we all have a voice in our government.
At 8/9/2013 9:41:24 AM, wrichcirw wrote:
If you are civil with me, I will be civil to you. If you decide to bring unreasonable animosity to bear in a reasonable discussion, then what would you expect other than to get flustered?
Stephen_Hawkins
Posts: 5,316
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6/29/2013 7:55:44 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
There isn't anything. Mostly because philosophically liberals (of whom libertarians are a group) will be able to disagree on everything, and conservatives by necessity of the philosophy of pragmatism will be able to disagree on anything and everything, while independents isn't even a political position other than a "not-party" position.
Give a man a fish, he'll eat for a day. Teach him how to be Gay, he'll positively influence the GDP.

Social Contract Theory debate: http://www.debate.org...
medic0506
Posts: 13,450
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6/29/2013 9:46:58 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 6/29/2013 1:56:22 AM, wrichcirw wrote:
At 6/28/2013 11:07:58 PM, Jo2599 wrote:
Basically, let's come up with a list of issues that liberals, conservatives, libertarians, and independents can all agree upon.

The United States is a very divided nation politically. But I think we can come together and voice our universal concerns over Government.

That we all have a voice in our government.

I think these past two presidential elections prove that that's not such a great idea.
medic0506
Posts: 13,450
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6/29/2013 9:51:58 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
I think that unless we first have an objective set of moral laws to govern society, nothing else is going to go well. Obviously, we all disagree on what those moral values should be, so we're just going to continue down the road we're on. I think secession is the only viable option, at this point, short of civil war.
johnnyboy54
Posts: 6,362
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6/29/2013 9:55:02 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 6/29/2013 1:56:22 AM, wrichcirw wrote:
At 6/28/2013 11:07:58 PM, Jo2599 wrote:
Basically, let's come up with a list of issues that liberals, conservatives, libertarians, and independents can all agree upon.

The United States is a very divided nation politically. But I think we can come together and voice our universal concerns over Government.

That we all have a voice in our government.

lol no
I didn't order assholes with my whiskey.
RoyLatham
Posts: 4,488
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6/29/2013 10:03:06 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
Most moral principles are agreed to: honesty; the immorality of theft, assault, and murder; guarantees of freedom of speech and religion. Conflicts occur on the margins between conflicting general principles. For example, everyone likes free speech in general, but wait, there is hate speech, libel, misleading advertising, etc. People obsessed with arguing the borderline cases forget about the large body of general agreement that's not at issue.
DetectableNinja
Posts: 6,043
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6/29/2013 10:09:03 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 6/29/2013 9:51:58 AM, medic0506 wrote:
I think that unless we first have an objective set of moral laws to govern society, nothing else is going to go well. Obviously, we all disagree on what those moral values should be, so we're just going to continue down the road we're on. I think secession is the only viable option, at this point, short of civil war.

Really? You believe that at this point people should either just split up the US, or kill each other? That's the only future you see?

Also, I'm pretty sure "secession" in the singular will never happen, and if it does, will never work. There aren't just two camps of morality, and, rest assured, there aren't just two camps of morality that are gung ho.

In reality, Balkanization would be much more likely, and much more likely to work, than single secession.

Of course, I support neither, but still.
Think'st thou heaven is such a glorious thing?
I tell thee, 'tis not half so fair as thou
Or any man that breathes on earth.

- Christopher Marlowe, Doctor Faustus
mathdebator
Posts: 72
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6/29/2013 10:20:49 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
Finding a "perfect government" where everybody agrees is impossible. The Earth is 4.5 billion years old, and I don't think there was ever a time when life said "okay, everything's accounted for and we're all happy, yay!"
medic0506
Posts: 13,450
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6/29/2013 10:45:44 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 6/29/2013 10:09:03 AM, DetectableNinja wrote:
At 6/29/2013 9:51:58 AM, medic0506 wrote:
I think that unless we first have an objective set of moral laws to govern society, nothing else is going to go well. Obviously, we all disagree on what those moral values should be, so we're just going to continue down the road we're on. I think secession is the only viable option, at this point, short of civil war.

Really? You believe that at this point people should either just split up the US, or kill each other? That's the only future you see?

I'm not in favor of civil war, I just meant that short of that, splitting up somehow seems the best option, given how polarized we are. One option would be to give states absolute, sovereign authority over their own laws, with the federal government forced to adapt to those decisions(a novel idea, I know). SCOTUS would have no authority over state law, and the FFAC clause would have to be repealed.

Also, I'm pretty sure "secession" in the singular will never happen, and if it does, will never work. There aren't just two camps of morality, and, rest assured, there aren't just two camps of morality that are gung ho.

In reality, Balkanization would be much more likely, and much more likely to work, than single secession.

Of course, I support neither, but still.
wrichcirw
Posts: 11,196
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6/29/2013 11:25:22 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 6/29/2013 9:46:58 AM, medic0506 wrote:
At 6/29/2013 1:56:22 AM, wrichcirw wrote:
At 6/28/2013 11:07:58 PM, Jo2599 wrote:
Basically, let's come up with a list of issues that liberals, conservatives, libertarians, and independents can all agree upon.

The United States is a very divided nation politically. But I think we can come together and voice our universal concerns over Government.

That we all have a voice in our government.

I think these past two presidential elections prove that that's not such a great idea.

These past two presidential elections have proved that that's a great idea. They have elected officials who have reversed the damage caused by arguably the worst POTUS this nation has ever seen. Looking at Bush #2, one would get worried about everyone having a voice in our government, because we may elect someone in power that might take it away.
At 8/9/2013 9:41:24 AM, wrichcirw wrote:
If you are civil with me, I will be civil to you. If you decide to bring unreasonable animosity to bear in a reasonable discussion, then what would you expect other than to get flustered?
wrichcirw
Posts: 11,196
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6/29/2013 11:26:23 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 6/29/2013 9:55:02 AM, johnnyboy54 wrote:
At 6/29/2013 1:56:22 AM, wrichcirw wrote:
At 6/28/2013 11:07:58 PM, Jo2599 wrote:
Basically, let's come up with a list of issues that liberals, conservatives, libertarians, and independents can all agree upon.

The United States is a very divided nation politically. But I think we can come together and voice our universal concerns over Government.

That we all have a voice in our government.

lol no

lol ok, well obviously my retort would be that yours would be the first voice to get silenced in our new authoritarian government modeled on your approach.
At 8/9/2013 9:41:24 AM, wrichcirw wrote:
If you are civil with me, I will be civil to you. If you decide to bring unreasonable animosity to bear in a reasonable discussion, then what would you expect other than to get flustered?
darkkermit
Posts: 11,204
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6/29/2013 11:29:45 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 6/29/2013 10:19:37 AM, Citrakayah wrote:
The sky is blue.

Think I remember reading somewhere, while most people agree with the statement "the sky is blue", they'll actually disagree with the statement if its stated by someone of opposing ideology (Ex: A liberal telling a conservative, or vice versa). Stating that's its not really blue but tinted blue or something along those lines.
Open borders debate:
http://www.debate.org...
darkkermit
Posts: 11,204
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6/29/2013 11:32:07 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
Also to all you leftist scum that say the sky is blue.

The sky actually shows all the colors in the light spectrum, its just that it looks blue because not all light colors are shown with equal intensity.

Yea, I'm going that root.
Open borders debate:
http://www.debate.org...
Stephen_Hawkins
Posts: 5,316
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6/29/2013 11:37:09 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 6/29/2013 11:30:33 AM, Cermank wrote:
Everyone should be happy.

Conservative: Criminals ought to be made to suffer harshly.
Liberals and Independents may say similar.

And everyone should have more jobs.

People will argue full employment will cause problems in the marketplace more dangerous than minor unemployment; forced employment (which this policy requires) sacrifices freedom, etc. and probably most importantly this is utopian and ought not be a goal.
Give a man a fish, he'll eat for a day. Teach him how to be Gay, he'll positively influence the GDP.

Social Contract Theory debate: http://www.debate.org...
johnnyboy54
Posts: 6,362
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6/29/2013 11:53:26 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 6/29/2013 11:26:23 AM, wrichcirw wrote:
At 6/29/2013 9:55:02 AM, johnnyboy54 wrote:
At 6/29/2013 1:56:22 AM, wrichcirw wrote:
At 6/28/2013 11:07:58 PM, Jo2599 wrote:
Basically, let's come up with a list of issues that liberals, conservatives, libertarians, and independents can all agree upon.

The United States is a very divided nation politically. But I think we can come together and voice our universal concerns over Government.

That we all have a voice in our government.

lol no

lol ok, well obviously my retort would be that yours would be the first voice to get silenced in our new authoritarian government modeled on your approach.

Who said i wanted an authoritarian government?
I didn't order assholes with my whiskey.
wrichcirw
Posts: 11,196
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6/29/2013 12:05:54 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 6/29/2013 11:53:26 AM, johnnyboy54 wrote:
At 6/29/2013 11:26:23 AM, wrichcirw wrote:
At 6/29/2013 9:55:02 AM, johnnyboy54 wrote:
At 6/29/2013 1:56:22 AM, wrichcirw wrote:
At 6/28/2013 11:07:58 PM, Jo2599 wrote:
Basically, let's come up with a list of issues that liberals, conservatives, libertarians, and independents can all agree upon.

The United States is a very divided nation politically. But I think we can come together and voice our universal concerns over Government.

That we all have a voice in our government.

lol no

lol ok, well obviously my retort would be that yours would be the first voice to get silenced in our new authoritarian government modeled on your approach.

Who said i wanted an authoritarian government?

An authoritarian government would be one where people like yourself do not have a voice in your own government.
At 8/9/2013 9:41:24 AM, wrichcirw wrote:
If you are civil with me, I will be civil to you. If you decide to bring unreasonable animosity to bear in a reasonable discussion, then what would you expect other than to get flustered?
johnnyboy54
Posts: 6,362
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6/29/2013 12:14:56 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 6/29/2013 12:05:54 PM, wrichcirw wrote:
At 6/29/2013 11:53:26 AM, johnnyboy54 wrote:
At 6/29/2013 11:26:23 AM, wrichcirw wrote:
At 6/29/2013 9:55:02 AM, johnnyboy54 wrote:
At 6/29/2013 1:56:22 AM, wrichcirw wrote:
At 6/28/2013 11:07:58 PM, Jo2599 wrote:
Basically, let's come up with a list of issues that liberals, conservatives, libertarians, and independents can all agree upon.

The United States is a very divided nation politically. But I think we can come together and voice our universal concerns over Government.

That we all have a voice in our government.

lol no

lol ok, well obviously my retort would be that yours would be the first voice to get silenced in our new authoritarian government modeled on your approach.

Who said i wanted an authoritarian government?

An authoritarian government would be one where people like yourself do not have a voice in your own government.

Okay. That doesn't answer my question. Who said I wanted an authoritarian government. My point was that I don't agree that I really have a voice in the government.
I didn't order assholes with my whiskey.
wrichcirw
Posts: 11,196
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6/29/2013 12:17:56 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 6/29/2013 12:14:56 PM, johnnyboy54 wrote:
At 6/29/2013 12:05:54 PM, wrichcirw wrote:
At 6/29/2013 11:53:26 AM, johnnyboy54 wrote:
At 6/29/2013 11:26:23 AM, wrichcirw wrote:
At 6/29/2013 9:55:02 AM, johnnyboy54 wrote:
At 6/29/2013 1:56:22 AM, wrichcirw wrote:
At 6/28/2013 11:07:58 PM, Jo2599 wrote:
Basically, let's come up with a list of issues that liberals, conservatives, libertarians, and independents can all agree upon.

The United States is a very divided nation politically. But I think we can come together and voice our universal concerns over Government.

That we all have a voice in our government.

lol no

lol ok, well obviously my retort would be that yours would be the first voice to get silenced in our new authoritarian government modeled on your approach.

Who said i wanted an authoritarian government?

An authoritarian government would be one where people like yourself do not have a voice in your own government.

Okay. That doesn't answer my question. Who said I wanted an authoritarian government. My point was that I don't agree that I really have a voice in the government.

Then you must think we have an authoritarian government, where decisions are made without your consent or approval.

This thread is not about how things are, but how you want things to be.
At 8/9/2013 9:41:24 AM, wrichcirw wrote:
If you are civil with me, I will be civil to you. If you decide to bring unreasonable animosity to bear in a reasonable discussion, then what would you expect other than to get flustered?
johnnyboy54
Posts: 6,362
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6/29/2013 12:22:45 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 6/29/2013 12:17:56 PM, wrichcirw wrote:
At 6/29/2013 12:14:56 PM, johnnyboy54 wrote:
At 6/29/2013 12:05:54 PM, wrichcirw wrote:
At 6/29/2013 11:53:26 AM, johnnyboy54 wrote:
At 6/29/2013 11:26:23 AM, wrichcirw wrote:
At 6/29/2013 9:55:02 AM, johnnyboy54 wrote:
At 6/29/2013 1:56:22 AM, wrichcirw wrote:
At 6/28/2013 11:07:58 PM, Jo2599 wrote:
Basically, let's come up with a list of issues that liberals, conservatives, libertarians, and independents can all agree upon.

The United States is a very divided nation politically. But I think we can come together and voice our universal concerns over Government.

That we all have a voice in our government.

lol no

lol ok, well obviously my retort would be that yours would be the first voice to get silenced in our new authoritarian government modeled on your approach.

Who said i wanted an authoritarian government?

An authoritarian government would be one where people like yourself do not have a voice in your own government.

Okay. That doesn't answer my question. Who said I wanted an authoritarian government. My point was that I don't agree that I really have a voice in the government.

Then you must think we have an authoritarian government, where decisions are made without your consent or approval.

This thread is not about how things are, but how you want things to be.

Okay I get what you are saying now. I thought you were saying that is how things are now.
I didn't order assholes with my whiskey.
Ragnar_Rahl
Posts: 19,297
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6/29/2013 12:29:23 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 6/29/2013 1:56:22 AM, wrichcirw wrote:
At 6/28/2013 11:07:58 PM, Jo2599 wrote:
Basically, let's come up with a list of issues that liberals, conservatives, libertarians, and independents can all agree upon.

The United States is a very divided nation politically. But I think we can come together and voice our universal concerns over Government.

That we all have a voice in our government.
Oh hell naw.
It came to be at its height. It was commanded to command. It was a capital before its first stone was laid. It was a monument to the spirit of man.
000ike
Posts: 11,196
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6/29/2013 12:45:24 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
I don't see how voting counts as a voice. If you voted for the winner, whether you voted or not he would still have won. If you voted for the loser, whether you voted or not he would still have lost, and your vote means even less because you didn't get what you wanted. When you vote, you're not a person forwarding his intellectual input on the operation of the government, you're an impersonalized tally. So the outcome of the election occurs from some kind of sociological chess in which only the 2 candidates are the only ones in control, rather than a referendum. True influence only works on a small scale - on the scale of hundreds of millions, voting is pretty much arbitrary - in practice and in outcome.

The only thing that convinces people to vote is the faulty perception that the group is an extension of the individual - so if you don't vote, what if no one voted?
"A stupid despot may constrain his slaves with iron chains; but a true politician binds them even more strongly with the chain of their own ideas" - Michel Foucault
Stephen_Hawkins
Posts: 5,316
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6/29/2013 12:53:28 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 6/29/2013 12:17:56 PM, wrichcirw wrote:
At 6/29/2013 12:14:56 PM, johnnyboy54 wrote:
At 6/29/2013 12:05:54 PM, wrichcirw wrote:
At 6/29/2013 11:53:26 AM, johnnyboy54 wrote:
At 6/29/2013 11:26:23 AM, wrichcirw wrote:
At 6/29/2013 9:55:02 AM, johnnyboy54 wrote:
At 6/29/2013 1:56:22 AM, wrichcirw wrote:
At 6/28/2013 11:07:58 PM, Jo2599 wrote:
Basically, let's come up with a list of issues that liberals, conservatives, libertarians, and independents can all agree upon.

The United States is a very divided nation politically. But I think we can come together and voice our universal concerns over Government.

That we all have a voice in our government.

lol no

lol ok, well obviously my retort would be that yours would be the first voice to get silenced in our new authoritarian government modeled on your approach.

Who said i wanted an authoritarian government?

An authoritarian government would be one where people like yourself do not have a voice in your own government.

Okay. That doesn't answer my question. Who said I wanted an authoritarian government. My point was that I don't agree that I really have a voice in the government.

Then you must think we have an authoritarian government, where decisions are made without your consent or approval.

This thread is not about how things are, but how you want things to be.

1) An authoritarian government is still a system where everyone arguably has a voice. Thatcher's government or Disraeli's government is authoritarian, but everyone has a voice - necessarily so.

2) Bearing in mind in all nations there are a demographic disenfranchised (illegal immigrants, prisoners, the clinically insane, etc.), universal suffrage is not reasonably a litmus test of authoritarian governments.

3) Many democracies, such as a Rousseauan Democracy (which I support in its ideal) or a lottery democracy (which has gained traction among some academics) would be necessarily authoritarian, which seems a bit silly.
Give a man a fish, he'll eat for a day. Teach him how to be Gay, he'll positively influence the GDP.

Social Contract Theory debate: http://www.debate.org...
AlbinoBunny
Posts: 3,781
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6/29/2013 1:30:51 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
Suffering = bad. Reduction of suffering = good.
bladerunner060 | bsh1 , 2014! Presidency campaign!

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