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Race, Racism, and Andrew Sullivan

jimtimmy2
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7/1/2013 7:58:02 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
There are real white racists that exist. We are talking about skinheads, KKK members, neo nazis, etc. I am and always have been totally disgusted by such groups and people. I have never in anyway supported any of these groups.

What I have done is endorse the scientific findings of J Philippe Rushton, Arthur Jenson, Richard Hernstein, etc. I have also argued that these findings argue against many assumptions that liberals make about race and thus argue against certain (liberal ) policies such as affirmative action, welfare, and immigration. My views do not and have never gone beyond that.

Andrew Sullivan wrote an excellent blog post here:

"I should know better than to bring this up again. But the effective firing of a researcher, Heritage"s Jason Richwine, because of his Harvard dissertation should immediately send up red flags about intellectual freedom. I am not defending the Heritage report on immigration because I think it"s a loaded piece of agitprop. And I am emphatically not defending everything that Richwine has said and done (not least his disturbing willingness to be published in white supremacist magazines).

What I do want to insist is that the premise behind almost all the attacks " that there is no empirical evidence of IQ differences between broad racial categories " is not true. It is true (pdf), if you accept the broad racial categories Americans use as shorthand for a bewilderingly complex DNA salad (a big if, of course). There"s no serious debate about that. The serious debate is about what importance to assign to the concept of "IQ" and about the possible reasons for the enduring discrepancies: environment, nurture, culture, or genes " or some variation of them all?

For my part, I"ve come to doubt the existence of something called "g" or general intelligence, as the research has gathered over the years. I believe IQ is an artificial construct created to predict how well a random person is likely to do in an advanced post-industrial society. And that"s all it is. It certainly shouldn"t be conflated with some Platonic idea of "intelligence." I don"t think it carries any moral weight at all, either, and I don"t think it should be used in any way in immigration policy. In fact, any public policy that rests on this kind of data is anathema to me. It"s far too close to eugenics, and to the morally repugnant idea that smarter people are somehow better in any meaningful sense.

But Richwine"s dissertation was mainly a quant-job. He comes across in this Byron York interview as a bit clueless " suspiciously so, I"d say " in extrapolating policy conclusions from IQ data in the context of immigration. But the core point about any dissertation is a simple one: does it hold up under scholarly scrutiny? Richard Zeckhauser, the Frank P. Ramsey Professor of Political Economy at Harvard, is on record as saying that "Jason"s empirical work was careful. Moreover, my view is that none of his advisors would have accepted his thesis had he thought that his empirical work was tilted or in error." One of those advisors was the very serious and very liberal scholar Christopher Jencks.

I haven"t had time to read the thing, and some have cast aspersions on it after a browse. But it is abhorrent to tar someone researching data as a racist and hound him out of a job simply because of his results, honestly discovered and analyzed. One particularly disturbing statement came from 23 separate student groups at Harvard:

Central to his claim is the idea that certain groups are genetically predisposed to be more intelligent than others. In his troubling worldview Asians are generally at the top, with whites in the middle, Hispanics follow, and African Americans at the bottom. To justify his assertions he cites largely discredited sources such as J. Philippe Rushton whose work enshrines the idea that there are genetically-rooted differences in cognitive ability between racial groups.
We condemn in unequivocal terms these racist claims as unfit for Harvard Kennedy School and Harvard University as a whole. Granting permission for such a dissertation to be published debases all of our degrees and hurts the University"s reputation " Even if such claims had merit, the Kennedy School cannot ethically stand by this dissertation whose end result can only be furthering discrimination under the guise of academic discourse.

My italics. They are, of course, caricaturing the argument " I know of no scholar who believes that genes are entirely responsible for the racial differences. Here"s another caricature of it:

Human beings have not existed long enough to be divided into separate and distinct racial "species."

Of course not. We remain the same species, just as a poodle and a beagle are of the same species. But poodles, in general, are smarter than beagles, and beagles have a much better sense of smell. We bred those traits into them, of course, fast-forwarding evolution. But the idea that natural selection and environmental adaptation stopped among human beings the minute we emerged in the planet 200,000 years ago " and that there are no genetic markers for geographical origin or destination " is bizarre. It would be deeply strange if Homo sapiens were the only species on earth that did not adapt to different climates, diseases, landscapes, and experiences over hundreds of millennia. We see such adaptation happening very quickly in the animal kingdom. Our skin color alone " clearly a genetic adaptation to climate " is, well, right in front of one"s nose.

But what the Harvard students are saying is worse than creating a straw man. They are saying that even if it is true that there are resilient differences in IQ in broad racial groupings, such things should not be studied at Harvard because their "end result can only be furthering discrimination." You can"t have a more explicit attack on intellectual freedom than that. They even seem to want the PhD to be withdrawn.

Freddie deBoer and Reihan Salam have two good posts about this. Freddie:

Racism thrives on conspiratorial thinking and the self-definition of racists as an oppressed group. When you say things that are true aren"t, and especially when you do so in a way that treats the other point of view as forbidden, you play directly into their hands. I cannot imagine an easier way to give them fuel for their argument than to say that certain test results don"t exist when they do.

That"s my view in a nutshell. What on earth are these "liberals" so terrified of, if not the truth? Instead of going on racist witch-hunts, why don"t they question what IQ means, how great the cultural and environmental impact can be (very considerable), whether such tests should guide public policy at all, or examine how "race" as a social construct does not always correlate to specific variations in human DNA. Note how the terms "race" and "historical ethnicity" are not the same things, as Reihan does. Or do what the scholar Dana Goldstein has done " criticize Richwine"s dismissal of education and poverty as factors affecting IQ in his dissertation.

But please don"t say truly stupid things like race has no biological element to it or that there is no data on racial differences in IQ (even though those differences are mild compared with overwhelming similarity). Denying empirical reality is not a good thing in any circumstance. In a university context, it is an embrace of illiberalism at its most pernicious and seductive: because its motives are good.
"

My views on race, at most, are the same as Jason Richwine. And, I think Sullivan nails it on the head here.

I've always argued that whites are in the middle, not the top. I've always argued that racial superiority is stupid and that white nationalism is stupid. I've always argued that Hitler was a monster.

Keep all of this in mind next time you call somebody "racist"
000ike
Posts: 11,196
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7/1/2013 8:04:54 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
I'm not reading that. If you want a quote war, I'd be happy to find a competing opinion on this subject and bludgeon you with it. Otherwise, put this blog away and come up with your own material.
"A stupid despot may constrain his slaves with iron chains; but a true politician binds them even more strongly with the chain of their own ideas" - Michel Foucault
jimtimmy2
Posts: 403
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7/1/2013 8:10:51 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
Fact is that I am not a racist and never have been.

Being a libertarian or conservative and agreeing with mainstream science (which is all I have ever been guilty of on race) should NOT be considered racist.
benevolent
Posts: 1,040
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7/1/2013 8:15:58 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
You've been spending your time on here trying to raise yourself above others. We all do it, just you've been going about it in a particularly distasteful manner. Time to grow up dude. IQ is largely insignificant as regards average life.
jimtimmy2
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7/1/2013 8:18:16 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 7/1/2013 8:15:58 PM, benevolent wrote:
You've been spending your time on here trying to raise yourself above others. We all do it, just you've been going about it in a particularly distasteful manner. Time to grow up dude. IQ is largely insignificant as regards average life.

As to IQ, I, along with most experts, disagree with you.

But, let me ask you this.

How does your theory account for the fact that I have always held East Asians to be smarters than whites?
YYW
Posts: 36,242
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7/1/2013 8:22:53 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
JT I get so tired of seeing your sh!t on the forums. Why do you even bother to post? Do you think there is anyone who takes you seriously? Do you think anyone cares what you think or have to say?
benevolent
Posts: 1,040
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7/1/2013 8:26:21 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 7/1/2013 8:18:16 PM, jimtimmy2 wrote:
At 7/1/2013 8:15:58 PM, benevolent wrote:
You've been spending your time on here trying to raise yourself above others. We all do it, just you've been going about it in a particularly distasteful manner. Time to grow up dude. IQ is largely insignificant as regards average life.

As to IQ, I, along with most experts, disagree with you.

I doubt they really do. Average life is characterized by menial labour for the most part.

But, let me ask you this.

How does your theory account for the fact that I have always held East Asians to be smarters than whites?

They don't live in the same place as you; you have no need to place yourself above them. Plus, you probably think you're better looking than them :P
jimtimmy2
Posts: 403
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7/1/2013 8:27:41 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 7/1/2013 8:22:53 PM, YYW wrote:
JT I get so tired of seeing your sh!t on the forums. Why do you even bother to post? Do you think there is anyone who takes you seriously? Do you think anyone cares what you think or have to say?

Well. Yes. I mean, this is debate.org and I have opinions. That is the purpose of this site.

You may not care. The beautiful about DDO is that you can ignore my threads.
jimtimmy2
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7/1/2013 8:28:28 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 7/1/2013 8:26:21 PM, benevolent wrote:
At 7/1/2013 8:18:16 PM, jimtimmy2 wrote:
At 7/1/2013 8:15:58 PM, benevolent wrote:
You've been spending your time on here trying to raise yourself above others. We all do it, just you've been going about it in a particularly distasteful manner. Time to grow up dude. IQ is largely insignificant as regards average life.

As to IQ, I, along with most experts, disagree with you.

I doubt they really do. Average life is characterized by menial labour for the most part.

I would disagree here.


But, let me ask you this.

How does your theory account for the fact that I have always held East Asians to be smarters than whites?

They don't live in the same place as you; you have no need to place yourself above them. Plus, you probably think you're better looking than them :P

Nah. I'm not that good looking. I'm just not ugly.
benevolent
Posts: 1,040
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7/1/2013 8:28:37 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
The only place IQ really becomes in any way relevant is with regards to like theoretical physics, and then stuff like that is only for the like .01% intelligent anyway.
YYW
Posts: 36,242
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7/1/2013 8:29:27 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 7/1/2013 8:27:41 PM, jimtimmy2 wrote:
At 7/1/2013 8:22:53 PM, YYW wrote:
JT I get so tired of seeing your sh!t on the forums. Why do you even bother to post? Do you think there is anyone who takes you seriously? Do you think anyone cares what you think or have to say?

Well. Yes. I mean, this is debate.org and I have opinions. That is the purpose of this site.

You may not care. The beautiful about DDO is that you can ignore my threads.

I am responding because I am interested in the answers to the questions I asked you. Here they are again:

(1) Why do you even post on this site?
(2) Do you think anyone here takes you seriously?
(3) Do you think anyone cares what you have to say [on political/social matters]?
benevolent
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7/1/2013 8:30:48 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 7/1/2013 8:29:27 PM, YYW wrote:
At 7/1/2013 8:27:41 PM, jimtimmy2 wrote:
At 7/1/2013 8:22:53 PM, YYW wrote:
JT I get so tired of seeing your sh!t on the forums. Why do you even bother to post? Do you think there is anyone who takes you seriously? Do you think anyone cares what you think or have to say?

Well. Yes. I mean, this is debate.org and I have opinions. That is the purpose of this site.

You may not care. The beautiful about DDO is that you can ignore my threads.

I am responding because I am interested in the answers to the questions I asked you. Here they are again:

(1) Why do you even post on this site?
(2) Do you think anyone here takes you seriously?
(3) Do you think anyone cares what you have to say [on political/social matters]?

You're not helping anything.
jimtimmy2
Posts: 403
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7/1/2013 8:32:07 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 7/1/2013 8:28:37 PM, benevolent wrote:
The only place IQ really becomes in any way relevant is with regards to like theoretical physics, and then stuff like that is only for the like .01% intelligent anyway.

Nah. IQ is pretty good at measuring skills useful to make it in a post industrial society. This is pretty amazing given how IQ tests date back to way before post industrial society existed. Although, IQ skills held some relevance there too.
benevolent
Posts: 1,040
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7/1/2013 8:33:22 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 7/1/2013 8:32:07 PM, jimtimmy2 wrote:
At 7/1/2013 8:28:37 PM, benevolent wrote:
The only place IQ really becomes in any way relevant is with regards to like theoretical physics, and then stuff like that is only for the like .01% intelligent anyway.

Nah. IQ is pretty good at measuring skills useful to make it in a post industrial society. This is pretty amazing given how IQ tests date back to way before post industrial society existed. Although, IQ skills held some relevance there too.

You know I'm right dude. Just stop.
jimtimmy2
Posts: 403
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7/1/2013 8:33:52 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 7/1/2013 8:29:27 PM, YYW wrote:
At 7/1/2013 8:27:41 PM, jimtimmy2 wrote:
At 7/1/2013 8:22:53 PM, YYW wrote:
JT I get so tired of seeing your sh!t on the forums. Why do you even bother to post? Do you think there is anyone who takes you seriously? Do you think anyone cares what you think or have to say?

Well. Yes. I mean, this is debate.org and I have opinions. That is the purpose of this site.

You may not care. The beautiful about DDO is that you can ignore my threads.

I am responding because I am interested in the answers to the questions I asked you. Here they are again:

(1) Why do you even post on this site?

Because I enjoy debating.

(2) Do you think anyone here takes you seriously?

Don't know, and not sure that it really matters. I'm here to debate not to obsess over how others take me.

(3) Do you think anyone cares what you have to say [on political/social matters]?

No. But, Do you think anyone cares what you have to say about these matters?

But, you go on posting your opinions regardless.
jimtimmy2
Posts: 403
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7/1/2013 8:34:08 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 7/1/2013 8:33:22 PM, benevolent wrote:
At 7/1/2013 8:32:07 PM, jimtimmy2 wrote:
At 7/1/2013 8:28:37 PM, benevolent wrote:
The only place IQ really becomes in any way relevant is with regards to like theoretical physics, and then stuff like that is only for the like .01% intelligent anyway.

Nah. IQ is pretty good at measuring skills useful to make it in a post industrial society. This is pretty amazing given how IQ tests date back to way before post industrial society existed. Although, IQ skills held some relevance there too.

You know I'm right dude. Just stop.

But, you're not right.
benevolent
Posts: 1,040
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7/1/2013 8:36:59 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
What's actually funny is that this negative you associate with black people actually drives them on; they try harder and achieve more because of it; or at least in places like Ireland where there's not too much negativity associated with them anyway. Smartest dude in my math class in school was a black kid, and because he tried like f*ck. He's well on his way to becoming a doctor now.
benevolent
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7/1/2013 8:37:56 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 7/1/2013 8:34:08 PM, jimtimmy2 wrote:
At 7/1/2013 8:33:22 PM, benevolent wrote:
At 7/1/2013 8:32:07 PM, jimtimmy2 wrote:
At 7/1/2013 8:28:37 PM, benevolent wrote:
The only place IQ really becomes in any way relevant is with regards to like theoretical physics, and then stuff like that is only for the like .01% intelligent anyway.

Nah. IQ is pretty good at measuring skills useful to make it in a post industrial society. This is pretty amazing given how IQ tests date back to way before post industrial society existed. Although, IQ skills held some relevance there too.

You know I'm right dude. Just stop.

But, you're not right.

The average man is a plumber dude, he fixes toilets.
jimtimmy2
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7/1/2013 8:38:46 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 7/1/2013 8:36:59 PM, benevolent wrote:
What's actually funny is that this negative you associate with black people actually drives them on; they try harder and achieve more because of it; or at least in places like Ireland where there's not too much negativity associated with them anyway. Smartest dude in my math class in school was a black kid, and because he tried like f*ck. He's well on his way to becoming a doctor now.

That's just it. We should look at people as individuals. Black people are in no way inferior to any other race. I have never said they are. Period. If you claim otherwise, you are either lying or ignorant.

There are plenty of smart blacks and dumb whites, but we are talking about averages.

I would prefer, as I always have, to look at individuals instead of races.
benevolent
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7/1/2013 8:41:05 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
Quit with your IQ bullsh*t; it's irrelevant and makes people feel bad about themselves.
000ike
Posts: 11,196
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7/1/2013 8:41:29 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 7/1/2013 8:38:46 PM, jimtimmy2 wrote:

Black people are in no way inferior to any other race. I have never said they are. Period. If you claim otherwise, you are either lying or ignorant.

http://www.debate.org...
"A stupid despot may constrain his slaves with iron chains; but a true politician binds them even more strongly with the chain of their own ideas" - Michel Foucault
jimtimmy2
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7/1/2013 8:59:54 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 7/1/2013 8:41:29 PM, 000ike wrote:
At 7/1/2013 8:38:46 PM, jimtimmy2 wrote:

Black people are in no way inferior to any other race. I have never said they are. Period. If you claim otherwise, you are either lying or ignorant.

http://www.debate.org...

I mean overall inferior. They are better at some things and worse at others. I have always held that.
benevolent
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7/1/2013 9:03:03 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 7/1/2013 8:59:54 PM, jimtimmy2 wrote:
At 7/1/2013 8:41:29 PM, 000ike wrote:
At 7/1/2013 8:38:46 PM, jimtimmy2 wrote:

Black people are in no way inferior to any other race. I have never said they are. Period. If you claim otherwise, you are either lying or ignorant.

http://www.debate.org...



I mean overall inferior. They are better at some things and worse at others. I have always held that.

only because you wanted to.
tulle
Posts: 4,445
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7/1/2013 9:04:40 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
Why do you keep claiming your beliefs are mainstream science?

"The American Psychological Association has said that while there are differences in average IQ between racial groups, there is no conclusive evidence for either environmental or genetic explanations for those differences.[4][5] The position of the American Anthropological Association is that variation in intelligence cannot be meaningfully explained by dividing a species into biologically defined races."

http://en.wikipedia.org...
yang.
drhead
Posts: 1,475
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7/1/2013 9:17:36 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
I've noticed that a lot of these studies don't control for other conditions. Sure, you can say that one race has lower IQs on average, but does that mean anything when you consider environmental factors, from widespread poverty to growing up in a world where some still hate or resent people because of their skin color?

Unless you can get a study done on albino African-Americans who are adopted by white families and grow up not knowing their black heritage at all (and, of course, comparing this to average IQs of people with albinism), studies won't ever come close to controlling for everything.
Wall of Fail

"You reject religion... calling it a sickness, to what ends??? Are you a Homosexual??" - Dogknox
"For me, Evolution is a zombie theory. I mean imaginary cartoons and wishful thinking support it?" - Dragonfang
"There are no mental health benefits of atheism. It is devoid of rational thinking and mental protection." - Gabrian
jimtimmy2
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7/2/2013 12:47:05 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 7/1/2013 9:04:40 PM, tulle wrote:
Why do you keep claiming your beliefs are mainstream science?

Because they are.


"The American Psychological Association has said that while there are differences in average IQ between racial groups, there is no conclusive evidence for either environmental or genetic explanations for those differences.[4][5] The position of the American Anthropological Association is that variation in intelligence cannot be meaningfully explained by dividing a species into biologically defined races."

http://en.wikipedia.org...

First, the bolded is absolutely meaningless. I have never argued that intelligence can be meaningfully explained by dividing a species into biologically defined races. If you think that is or ever has been my position, that speaks to how little effort you have put into actually understanding my position.

The APA is more relevant here. The APA has said that the IQ test is NOT culturally or racially biased. They have also said that individual IQ differences are genetic and that IQ is a relevant predictor for life success.

You are correct in saying that they have not endorsed any genetic component of racial IQ gaps (nor have they rejected them). I think this has more to do with PC and the personal political views of those on the APA than anything else, but so be it.

To be clear, I am not and I never have been a racist according to the standard definition. That is not a debatable claim. It is simply a fact. As I have said, I have never said anything that explicitly endorses racism. When I get down to asking people why they think I am racist, they start making claims about implicit messages. Sorry, only I know what my thoughts are and they aren't racist.

You can only prove I'm a racist if you can find explicitly racist statements from me. And, you know you can't because you know I'm not a racist (though you won't admit it).

I've always been disgusted by white supremacists. But, I also was appalled at how the media and education system push this egalitarian worldview that is about as absurd as the white supremacism (which is also absurd).

I have a SCIENTIFIC worldview that is neither blinded by hate towards other races (which I do not have) or blinded by PC propaganda (which I have seen through).
benevolent
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7/2/2013 12:51:13 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
you're trying too hard jimtimmy, trying to beat down everything i've been saying with walls of words. just stop dude.