Total Posts:8|Showing Posts:1-8
Jump to topic:

Do Left and Right Exists?

jimtimmy2
Posts: 403
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
7/24/2013 1:18:03 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
This is from a very smart person. I think he hits the nail on the head:

"The first cracks appeared when I noticed both the New Black Panthers and La Raza types voting democrat, and the greenie one-world harmony yuppie types also voting democrat.
When Hitler came to power, it was propelled by many real and contrived grievances. The Germans were the weaker party, the underdog, the little guy, and he was their champion who would give them strength again.
And moreover, when I read posts by "leftists", they focus overwhelmingly on how wrong the "rightists" are. But given the death of the anti-war movement once Obama became president, and the nonchalant response to Obama"s drones and pushes for civilian disarmament when far less prompted fury under George Bush, I question to what extent it even is about ideology.
So I"ve come to a hypothesis that "leftism" doesn"t actually exist. What exists are positions on issues, and how those positions effect certain groups. Drones under Obama aren"t as bad because "their guy" is in power, and he"ll be focusing on the radical "right", whereas Bush targeted the "radical left".
Is environmentalism a "left-wing" or "right-wing" position? Today it is. But under the monarchy in Britain, land was kept in nature and out of production, even though the peasants could really use that land, because the king enjoyed the nature. We certainly wouldn"t call that environmentalism "left-wing", but then, what even is "left wing"?
Is high taxes left wing? Well Bismarck instituted high taxes, public schools, and a pension system, and instilled a German nationalism, a powerful military and an aggressive foreign policy. So in that context, high taxes, public schools and pension systems certainly wouldn"t be called "left wing". Or would it? I don"t know.
In Britain in the late 1800s, the socialist parties didn"t want the women to have the vote because the women were more conservative than men. Does this mean that opposing the female vote is a "left-wing" thing?
What I see is nothing but nations. Nations nations everywhere. Some overt, some hidden. But all policy is a form of nationalism. Supporting higher or lower taxes isn"t any more "left wing" or "right wing", it just is. And if your moral tribe says high taxes are good, then you"ll want to impose high taxes and see it as a victory over the hated "rightists".
The ideologies are just piggie-backed.
So when someone says "I"m a leftist", I"m a bit skeptical of that, because I don"t think such a thing exists. Everyone"s a nationalist, it"s just a question of what your nation is.
"

Left and Right don't exist (in a political sense). Ideology is, in most ways, just a cover for promoting group interests.
FREEDO
Posts: 21,057
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
7/24/2013 2:25:09 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 7/24/2013 1:46:55 AM, ConservativePolitico wrote:
Well ideologies exist, you're just nitpicking how they're actually used as opposed to what they're really supposed to do.

Do they ever do what they're supposed to do? As far as I can see, simple good-will and creative-spirit are the only effective movements at bettering human existence. Ideology only breeds division and aggression.

Idealists are good-intentioned but inevitably become the monsters they swore to fight.
GRAND POOBAH OF DDO

fnord
proglib
Posts: 391
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
7/24/2013 2:56:57 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 7/24/2013 2:25:09 AM, FREEDO wrote:
At 7/24/2013 1:46:55 AM, ConservativePolitico wrote:
Well ideologies exist, you're just nitpicking how they're actually used as opposed to what they're really supposed to do.

Do they ever do what they're supposed to do? As far as I can see, simple good-will and creative-spirit are the only effective movements at bettering human existence. Ideology only breeds division and aggression.

Idealists are good-intentioned but inevitably become the monsters they swore to fight.

With all due respect, Freedo, this is an example of over generalizing. Many idealists become the monsters they swore to fight, but some (perhaps many) do not.

On the other hand, along with you, I find the first post in this thread intriguing. As a "progressive libertarian"--hence "Proglib"-- I am often arguing with people that their view of the "left" (or, sometimes the right)is skewed and filled with stereotypes. My TEA Party brother, for example, often wants to argue with me based on straw person positions someone he knows has (or he thinks they have.)

There are indeed statists on both the right and left. I sometimes remark, for example, that the most "socialistic" institutions in the U.S. are the very ones that the so-called right wing "patriots" fetishize: the military, police and fire and other first responders.

Interesting topic.
"I would remind you that extremism in the defense of liberty is no vice.* And let me remind you also that moderation in the pursuit of justice is no virtue." Barry Goldwater
*Except in a democracy it might lose you an election.

http://unitedwegovern.org...
darkkermit
Posts: 11,204
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
7/24/2013 2:57:22 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
I think the best way to define leftism, is a desire for egalitarianism while rightism is a desire for hierarchy.

This does create a scenario though in which two people can have similar ideologies, but lean towards either the left or right. For example, a libertarian can be either left or right. A libertarian w/ left leaning might be for free-markets because he/she believes that income inequality is due to crony capitalism. A libertarian w/ right leanings might recognize that free-markets create inequality, but doesn't care.
Open borders debate:
http://www.debate.org...
Stephen_Hawkins
Posts: 5,316
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
7/24/2013 4:00:16 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
The original post went from "leftism does not exist in specific issues" to "leftism does not exist". If leftism or rightism exists only as an institutional term to describe ideological allies, then this makes much more sense, while sidesteps the practical problems presented.
Give a man a fish, he'll eat for a day. Teach him how to be Gay, he'll positively influence the GDP.

Social Contract Theory debate: http://www.debate.org...
ClassicRobert
Posts: 2,487
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
7/24/2013 8:25:07 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 7/24/2013 2:25:09 AM, FREEDO wrote:
At 7/24/2013 1:46:55 AM, ConservativePolitico wrote:
Well ideologies exist, you're just nitpicking how they're actually used as opposed to what they're really supposed to do.

Do they ever do what they're supposed to do? As far as I can see, simple good-will and creative-spirit are the only effective movements at bettering human existence. Ideology only breeds division and aggression.

Idealists are good-intentioned but inevitably become the monsters they swore to fight.

Freedo, I hope you realize that you're coming up on your 20,000 post.
Debate me: Economic decision theory should be adjusted to include higher-order preferences for non-normative purposes http://www.debate.org...

Do you really believe that? Or not? If you believe it, you should man up and defend it in a debate. -RoyLatham

My Pet Fish is such a Douche- NiamC

It's an app to meet friends and stuff, sort of like an adult club penguin- Thett3, describing Tinder