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ClassicRobert
Posts: 2,487
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7/31/2013 2:51:04 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
Should the GOP become more conserve or libertarian?

Discuss.
Debate me: Economic decision theory should be adjusted to include higher-order preferences for non-normative purposes http://www.debate.org...

Do you really believe that? Or not? If you believe it, you should man up and defend it in a debate. -RoyLatham

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ConservativeAmerican
Posts: 1,676
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7/31/2013 2:52:19 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 7/31/2013 2:51:04 PM, ClassicRobert wrote:
Should the GOP become more conserve or libertarian?

Discuss.

Libertarian, conservatism is dying, Libertarian-ism is the main hype right now on the right for the younger generation.
1dustpelt
Posts: 1,970
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8/1/2013 8:41:14 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
No, "Republican" gives Libertarianism a bad name.

The libertarians in the GOP should just join the Libertarian Party.
Wall of LOL
"Infanticide is justified as long as the infants are below two" ~ RoyalPaladin
"Promoting female superiority is the only way to establish equality." ~ RoyalPaladin
"Jury trials should be banned. They're nothing more than opportunities for racists to destroy lives." ~ RoyalPaladin after the Zimmerman Trial.
imabench
Posts: 21,210
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8/1/2013 9:05:12 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 7/31/2013 2:51:04 PM, ClassicRobert wrote:
Should the GOP become more conserve or libertarian?

Discuss.

Libertarianism is still a bit of a fringe movement since they only just recently had a libertarian candidate get a million votes.... There are a sh*tload more moderates and independents then there are libertarians so the Republican Party if anything should become more centrist/moderate

If its just between libertarianism and conservatism, then libertarianism
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DetectableNinja
Posts: 6,043
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8/1/2013 9:07:18 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 7/31/2013 2:52:19 PM, ConservativeAmerican wrote:
At 7/31/2013 2:51:04 PM, ClassicRobert wrote:
Should the GOP become more conserve or libertarian?

Discuss.

Libertarian, conservatism is dying, Libertarian-ism is the main hype right now on the right for the younger generation.

I'm not a fan of calling it "hype," because that just makes it sound trendy and faddish, which I contend it isn't.
Think'st thou heaven is such a glorious thing?
I tell thee, 'tis not half so fair as thou
Or any man that breathes on earth.

- Christopher Marlowe, Doctor Faustus
DeFool
Posts: 626
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8/1/2013 10:33:11 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
I will preface my opinion by stating that I am a fairly far to the left on the left/right scale. Much more liberal than Democrat.

I am much more Democrat than Moderate.

I am much more Moderate than Republican.

I burst into flames as a Republican.

...And therefore, I would enjoy seeing the Grand Old Party fully embrace libertarian ideology.

I have a quote from Ayn Rand (the woman who loved the child-killer William Hickman):

"For the record, I shall repeat what I have said many times before: I do not join or endorse any political group or movement. More specifically, I disapprove of, disagree with and have no connection with, the latest aberration of some conservatives, the so-called "hippies of the right," who attempt to snare the younger or more careless ones of my readers by claiming simultaneously to be followers of my philosophy and advocates of anarchism. Anyone offering such a combination confesses his inability to understand either. Anarchism is the most irrational, anti-intellectual notion ever spun by the concrete-bound, context-dropping, whim-worshiping fringe of the collectivist movement, where it properly belongs."
-Ayn Rand, 1971
GeoLaureate8
Posts: 12,252
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8/1/2013 1:06:35 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 8/1/2013 8:41:14 AM, 1dustpelt wrote:
No, "Republican" gives Libertarianism a bad name.

The libertarians in the GOP should just join the Libertarian Party.

Utterly idiotic. The country will be 50% Democrat, 25% Republican and 25% Libertarian.

Yeah, great strategy... for a Democrat!
"We must raise the standard of the Old, free, decentralized, and strictly limited Republic."
-- Murray Rothbard

"The worst thing that can happen to a good cause is, not to be skillfully attacked, but to be ineptly defended."
-- Frederic Bastiat
ClassicRobert
Posts: 2,487
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8/1/2013 1:31:33 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 8/1/2013 1:06:35 PM, GeoLaureate8 wrote:
At 8/1/2013 8:41:14 AM, 1dustpelt wrote:
No, "Republican" gives Libertarianism a bad name.

The libertarians in the GOP should just join the Libertarian Party.

Utterly idiotic. The country will be 50% Democrat, 25% Republican and 25% Libertarian.

Yeah, great strategy... for a Democrat!

Exactly. That measure would just be dividing up the party. I do think though that the Republican party is on a downward trend and it needs to change up it's platform a little bit to regain it's popularity. Libertarianism is more along the message of less government and less government involvement, so I think that the Republican party should make it's platform a little more libertarian.
Debate me: Economic decision theory should be adjusted to include higher-order preferences for non-normative purposes http://www.debate.org...

Do you really believe that? Or not? If you believe it, you should man up and defend it in a debate. -RoyLatham

My Pet Fish is such a Douche- NiamC

It's an app to meet friends and stuff, sort of like an adult club penguin- Thett3, describing Tinder
ClassicRobert
Posts: 2,487
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8/1/2013 1:32:53 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 8/1/2013 10:33:11 AM, DeFool wrote:
I will preface my opinion by stating that I am a fairly far to the left on the left/right scale. Much more liberal than Democrat.

I am much more Democrat than Moderate.

I am much more Moderate than Republican.

I burst into flames as a Republican.

...And therefore, I would enjoy seeing the Grand Old Party fully embrace libertarian ideology.




I have a quote from Ayn Rand (the woman who loved the child-killer William Hickman):

"For the record, I shall repeat what I have said many times before: I do not join or endorse any political group or movement. More specifically, I disapprove of, disagree with and have no connection with, the latest aberration of some conservatives, the so-called "hippies of the right," who attempt to snare the younger or more careless ones of my readers by claiming simultaneously to be followers of my philosophy and advocates of anarchism. Anyone offering such a combination confesses his inability to understand either. Anarchism is the most irrational, anti-intellectual notion ever spun by the concrete-bound, context-dropping, whim-worshiping fringe of the collectivist movement, where it properly belongs."
-Ayn Rand, 1971

Libertarianism =/= Anarchism
Debate me: Economic decision theory should be adjusted to include higher-order preferences for non-normative purposes http://www.debate.org...

Do you really believe that? Or not? If you believe it, you should man up and defend it in a debate. -RoyLatham

My Pet Fish is such a Douche- NiamC

It's an app to meet friends and stuff, sort of like an adult club penguin- Thett3, describing Tinder
1Percenter
Posts: 781
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8/1/2013 1:33:01 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
They should definitely become more conservative. Nominating moderates like Romney is costing them right-wing votes in elections. McCain in had more votes in 08 than Romney did in 12 because a lot of conservatives/evangelicals just stayed home on election day rather than voting for an establishment moderate Republican.
dylancatlow
Posts: 12,244
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8/1/2013 1:33:30 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 8/1/2013 1:06:35 PM, GeoLaureate8 wrote:
At 8/1/2013 8:41:14 AM, 1dustpelt wrote:
No, "Republican" gives Libertarianism a bad name.

The libertarians in the GOP should just join the Libertarian Party.

Utterly idiotic. The country will be 50% Democrat, 25% Republican and 25% Libertarian.

Yeah, great strategy... for a Democrat!

This. Voting for hopeless third parties is a waste. Can we just have IRV already?
ClassicRobert
Posts: 2,487
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8/1/2013 1:36:49 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 8/1/2013 1:33:01 PM, 1Percenter wrote:
They should definitely become more conservative. Nominating moderates like Romney is costing them right-wing votes in elections. McCain in had more votes in 08 than Romney did in 12 because a lot of conservatives/evangelicals just stayed home on election day rather than voting for an establishment moderate Republican.

Definitely become more conservative? If they do that, they will almost completely alienate the young voters.
Debate me: Economic decision theory should be adjusted to include higher-order preferences for non-normative purposes http://www.debate.org...

Do you really believe that? Or not? If you believe it, you should man up and defend it in a debate. -RoyLatham

My Pet Fish is such a Douche- NiamC

It's an app to meet friends and stuff, sort of like an adult club penguin- Thett3, describing Tinder
dylancatlow
Posts: 12,244
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8/1/2013 1:40:03 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 8/1/2013 1:36:49 PM, ClassicRobert wrote:
At 8/1/2013 1:33:01 PM, 1Percenter wrote:
They should definitely become more conservative. Nominating moderates like Romney is costing them right-wing votes in elections. McCain in had more votes in 08 than Romney did in 12 because a lot of conservatives/evangelicals just stayed home on election day rather than voting for an establishment moderate Republican.

Definitely become more conservative? If they do that, they will almost completely alienate the young voters.

Definitely become more conservative =/= become much more conservative.
Subutai
Posts: 3,187
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8/1/2013 1:44:51 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
The Republican Party needs to become more Libertarian, but we don't need a lot of the party going to the Libertarian Party itself. That would just give the Democrats the government for who knows how long.
I'm becoming less defined as days go by, fading away, and well you might say, I'm losing focus, kinda drifting into the abstract in terms of how I see myself.
1Percenter
Posts: 781
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8/1/2013 1:48:04 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 8/1/2013 1:36:49 PM, ClassicRobert wrote:
At 8/1/2013 1:33:01 PM, 1Percenter wrote:
They should definitely become more conservative. Nominating moderates like Romney is costing them right-wing votes in elections. McCain in had more votes in 08 than Romney did in 12 because a lot of conservatives/evangelicals just stayed home on election day rather than voting for an establishment moderate Republican.

Definitely become more conservative? If they do that, they will almost completely alienate the young voters.
Not necessarily. Conservative libertarians like Rand Paul are far from moderate. He appeals to the younger libertarian-leaning voters as well as the traditional conservatives. The rest of the youth voting bloc seems to be mostly low-information single-issue voters guaranteed to vote Democrat and aren't worth forfeiting any ideological grounds for.
ClassicRobert
Posts: 2,487
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8/1/2013 2:45:58 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 8/1/2013 1:48:04 PM, 1Percenter wrote:
At 8/1/2013 1:36:49 PM, ClassicRobert wrote:
At 8/1/2013 1:33:01 PM, 1Percenter wrote:
They should definitely become more conservative. Nominating moderates like Romney is costing them right-wing votes in elections. McCain in had more votes in 08 than Romney did in 12 because a lot of conservatives/evangelicals just stayed home on election day rather than voting for an establishment moderate Republican.

Definitely become more conservative? If they do that, they will almost completely alienate the young voters.
Not necessarily. Conservative libertarians like Rand Paul are far from moderate. He appeals to the younger libertarian-leaning voters as well as the traditional conservatives. The rest of the youth voting bloc seems to be mostly low-information single-issue voters guaranteed to vote Democrat and aren't worth forfeiting any ideological grounds for.

They are generally single issue on two things: abortion and gay marriage. Conservatives generally oppose both of those things. I've seen young people boycott candidates simply because of those issues, and I think that those are both issues that the Republican party could be significantly more lenient on. That being said, I've never seen a conservative say that a candidate is a no-go just because they favor gay marriage.
Debate me: Economic decision theory should be adjusted to include higher-order preferences for non-normative purposes http://www.debate.org...

Do you really believe that? Or not? If you believe it, you should man up and defend it in a debate. -RoyLatham

My Pet Fish is such a Douche- NiamC

It's an app to meet friends and stuff, sort of like an adult club penguin- Thett3, describing Tinder
1Percenter
Posts: 781
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8/1/2013 3:59:23 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 8/1/2013 2:45:58 PM, ClassicRobert wrote:
At 8/1/2013 1:48:04 PM, 1Percenter wrote:
At 8/1/2013 1:36:49 PM, ClassicRobert wrote:
At 8/1/2013 1:33:01 PM, 1Percenter wrote:
They should definitely become more conservative. Nominating moderates like Romney is costing them right-wing votes in elections. McCain in had more votes in 08 than Romney did in 12 because a lot of conservatives/evangelicals just stayed home on election day rather than voting for an establishment moderate Republican.

Definitely become more conservative? If they do that, they will almost completely alienate the young voters.
Not necessarily. Conservative libertarians like Rand Paul are far from moderate. He appeals to the younger libertarian-leaning voters as well as the traditional conservatives. The rest of the youth voting bloc seems to be mostly low-information single-issue voters guaranteed to vote Democrat and aren't worth forfeiting any ideological grounds for.

They are generally single issue on two things: abortion and gay marriage. Conservatives generally oppose both of those things. I've seen young people boycott candidates simply because of those issues, and I think that those are both issues that the Republican party could be significantly more lenient on. That being said, I've never seen a conservative say that a candidate is a no-go just because they favor gay marriage.
Well, sure. At the federal level, whether a Republican favors gay marriage or not is usually irrelevant. Regardless their stance, the GOP favors allowing the states to decide their own marriage laws. Even at the state level, Republicans prefer to let the individuals decide on the issue via ballot propositions, as Chris Chrisite recently did in New Jersey. As for the abortion issue, a majority of conservatives will certainly boycott a candidate if they are pro-choice. Further, there is actually a relatively large number (nearly a third) of Democratic-leaning voters that oppose abortion.
1dustpelt
Posts: 1,970
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8/1/2013 4:25:59 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 8/1/2013 1:31:33 PM, ClassicRobert wrote:
At 8/1/2013 1:06:35 PM, GeoLaureate8 wrote:
At 8/1/2013 8:41:14 AM, 1dustpelt wrote:
No, "Republican" gives Libertarianism a bad name.

The libertarians in the GOP should just join the Libertarian Party.

Utterly idiotic. The country will be 50% Democrat, 25% Republican and 25% Libertarian.

Yeah, great strategy... for a Democrat!

Exactly. That measure would just be dividing up the party. I do think though that the Republican party is on a downward trend and it needs to change up it's platform a little bit to regain it's popularity. Libertarianism is more along the message of less government and less government involvement, so I think that the Republican party should make it's platform a little more libertarian.

It's going to be extremely hard for the GOP to make up for its bad image, especially since the average Joe doesn't keep up with politics. The GOP will still be remembered as the Bush type party.
Wall of LOL
"Infanticide is justified as long as the infants are below two" ~ RoyalPaladin
"Promoting female superiority is the only way to establish equality." ~ RoyalPaladin
"Jury trials should be banned. They're nothing more than opportunities for racists to destroy lives." ~ RoyalPaladin after the Zimmerman Trial.
wrichcirw
Posts: 11,196
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8/1/2013 5:46:19 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 7/31/2013 2:51:04 PM, ClassicRobert wrote:
Should the GOP become more conserve or libertarian?

Discuss.

Define conservatism.

Define libertarianism.
At 8/9/2013 9:41:24 AM, wrichcirw wrote:
If you are civil with me, I will be civil to you. If you decide to bring unreasonable animosity to bear in a reasonable discussion, then what would you expect other than to get flustered?
DeFool
Posts: 626
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8/1/2013 5:46:46 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 8/1/2013 1:32:53 PM, ClassicRobert wrote:
At 8/1/2013 10:33:11 AM, DeFool wrote:
I will preface my opinion by stating that I am a fairly far to the left on the left/right scale. Much more liberal than Democrat.

I am much more Democrat than Moderate.

I am much more Moderate than Republican.

I burst into flames as a Republican.

...And therefore, I would enjoy seeing the Grand Old Party fully embrace libertarian ideology.




I have a quote from Ayn Rand (the woman who loved the child-killer William Hickman):

"For the record, I shall repeat what I have said many times before: I do not join or endorse any political group or movement. More specifically, I disapprove of, disagree with and have no connection with, the latest aberration of some conservatives, the so-called "hippies of the right," who attempt to snare the younger or more careless ones of my readers by claiming simultaneously to be followers of my philosophy and advocates of anarchism. Anyone offering such a combination confesses his inability to understand either. Anarchism is the most irrational, anti-intellectual notion ever spun by the concrete-bound, context-dropping, whim-worshiping fringe of the collectivist movement, where it properly belongs."
-Ayn Rand, 1971

Libertarianism =/= Anarchism

I do not argue that it does. I only state that a move towards libertarian policies by the Republican Party could reasonably be expected to benefit the Democratic Party.

If you were referring to the quote by Ayn, I agree that her opinion cannot be taken seriously.
dylancatlow
Posts: 12,244
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8/1/2013 7:30:57 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
"I have a quote from Ayn Rand (the woman who loved the child-killer William Hickman)"

She would have hated the man, and considered him a monster. She liked an attribute of his i.e. his unwillingness to let society dilettante for him what his values should be, which some people took to mean a fondness for his whole character and translated that absurdity to mean she condoned his murderous character because it made him happy. Got any more myths and legends that are in need of dispelling? I got time.
dylancatlow
Posts: 12,244
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8/1/2013 7:31:37 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 8/1/2013 7:30:57 PM, dylancatlow wrote:
"I have a quote from Ayn Rand (the woman who loved the child-killer William Hickman)"

She would have hated the man, and considered him a monster. She liked an attribute of his i.e. his unwillingness to let society dilettante for him what his values should be, which some people took to mean a fondness for his whole character and translated that absurdity to mean she condoned his murders because they made him happy. Got any more myths and legends that are in need of dispelling? I got time.

fixed
Khaos_Mage
Posts: 23,214
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8/1/2013 7:36:48 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 8/1/2013 7:30:57 PM, dylancatlow wrote:
"I have a quote from Ayn Rand (the woman who loved the child-killer William Hickman)"

She would have hated the man, and considered him a monster. She liked an attribute of his i.e. his unwillingness to let society dilettante for him what his values should be, which some people took to mean a fondness for his whole character and translated that absurdity to mean she condoned his murderous character because it made him happy. Got any more myths and legends that are in need of dispelling? I got time.

Beat me to it, and probably for the best you did :)
My work here is, finally, done.