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Kleptin
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12/12/2009 10:16:05 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
(C) Conservatives are irrational and illogical clingers to a past that is shrouded by their own romantic views of how things should be, not how things actually were. They are not upholding American ideals, they are upholding a biased interpretation of meaningless prior events, usually backed with similarly meaningless things such as Religion.

(L) Liberals are brainwashed sheep who subscribe to the theory that everything is always broke, so everything always needs to be fixed, regardless of how well it works. Equality is an irrational concept, and is the founding principle of any Liberal belief. The erroneous assumption that all things which are not equal, should be made equal, is against all principles which make this country great. Equality should have a basis, Liberals believe otherwise.

(S) Communists and Socialists are idealistic fools. They often subscribe to Communism purely because they want to "stand out". There is no legitimate reason to suggest that socialism would work and their arguments that Communism should replace our current mixed-system simply because there are flaws with it, is fallacious. Communists like to sport a rebellious mentality because they think it makes them cool, unique individuals who think outside the box.

Please do not respond to more than one section, indicate which section you are responding to, and ignore my responses to other sections XD
: At 5/2/2010 2:43:54 PM, innomen wrote:
It isn't about finding a theory, philosophy or doctrine and thinking it's the answer, but a practical application of one's experiences that is the answer.

: At 10/28/2010 2:40:07 PM, jharry wrote: I have already been given the greatest Gift that anyone could ever hope for [Life], I would consider myself selfish if I expected anything more.
MistahKurtz
Posts: 400
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12/12/2009 10:50:00 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
All of your definitions are problematic, needlessly biased and incorrect. I'm guessing 'aggro' here is intended to mean 'being purposeful ignorant.' I suppose I'll tackle what I know most about;

At 12/12/2009 10:16:05 AM, Kleptin wrote:
(S) Communists and Socialists are idealistic fools. They often subscribe to Communism purely because they want to "stand out". There is no legitimate reason to suggest that socialism would work and their arguments that Communism should replace our current mixed-system simply because there are flaws with it, is fallacious. Communists like to sport a rebellious mentality because they think it makes them cool, unique individuals who think outside the box.

First of all, it amuses me when you throw around the word 'fallacious' and you ignorantly propagate ad hominium attacks while not supporting or backing up anything you say.

While I am not one myself, I know many Marxists. They range from history professors to labour activists and they are all incredibly intelligent people. They are not angsty teenagers who bought a Che Guevera t-shirt and read about the Communist Manifesto on Wikipedia, no, they are people who know that our current system is not benefiting the average worker and have been inspired by progressive (quasi) Marxist governments in places like El Salvador and Bolivia.

I, on the other hand, am a democratic socialist, so I don't believe in throwing away the system that we have, but I believe in making it work for everyone. It's not a pipe dream, as social democratic governments have given places like Norway and Sweden the highest standards of living in the world. Social Democracy has helped South Africa, even with its problems, begin the process of self-renewal. This is the ideology that has fought to give the people what is right (i.e. healthcare, safe drinking water, welfare) yet is still being opposed at every turn, despite being vindicated at just about every turn. Until the working class can own the means of communication, it's only going to get harder to show the disconnect between what we've given to society, what we're trying to give to them and what the status quo is.
wjmelements
Posts: 8,206
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12/12/2009 10:58:28 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
(A) Authoritarians are amoral hypocrites. They hold that human nature is naturally corrupted and then assert that the solution is in another human. They focus too much on the need to control and base most of their beliefs on a satirical pamphlet that they take seriously.
in the blink of an eye you finally see the light
Kleptin
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12/12/2009 12:34:41 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 12/12/2009 10:50:00 AM, MistahKurtz wrote:
All of your definitions are problematic, needlessly biased and incorrect. I'm guessing 'aggro' here is intended to mean 'being purposeful ignorant.' I suppose I'll tackle what I know most about;

Aggro is a videogame term for a proximity measure around a particular enemy. Once the aggro circle is penetrated, the enemy attacks. An aggro assault would come from a mob of enemies of which you have penetrated their aggro circle. Physically, it occurs when you purposely run headfirst into a group of enemies.

The problem with your accusation is that I did not submit any definitions. I submitted biased opinions, which are not problematic at all. Thus, I can simply reduce your characterization of my post as that of an incorrect statement. That's fine with me.

First of all, it amuses me when you throw around the word 'fallacious' and you ignorantly propagate ad hominium attacks while not supporting or backing up anything you say.

It amuses me too :) Rest assured, everything that follows from the first post will be legitimate and not an attempt at baiting people. As such, I hope you will forgive me for not responding to your defense of Marxists, as it was never my intention to argue that Socialists are idiots, rather to lure in a socialist and actually discuss their support of socialism.

This is the ideology that has fought to give the people what is right (i.e. healthcare, safe drinking water, welfare)

I agree with everything you said up there except for a few points. Please explain why my tax dollars should be spent on healthcare and welfare for people who don't contribute as much to society as I do.

Until the working class can own the means of communication, it's only going to get harder to show the disconnect between what we've given to society, what we're trying to give to them and what the status quo is.

Is the typical working class man in the working class because he wants to benefit society, or is he there because he isn't qualified to work a better job? Answer me that :D
: At 5/2/2010 2:43:54 PM, innomen wrote:
It isn't about finding a theory, philosophy or doctrine and thinking it's the answer, but a practical application of one's experiences that is the answer.

: At 10/28/2010 2:40:07 PM, jharry wrote: I have already been given the greatest Gift that anyone could ever hope for [Life], I would consider myself selfish if I expected anything more.
Volkov
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12/12/2009 1:28:35 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 12/12/2009 10:16:05 AM, Kleptin wrote:
(L) Liberals are brainwashed sheep who subscribe to the theory that everything is always broke, so everything always needs to be fixed, regardless of how well it works.

Minus the 'brainwashed sheep' part, this is correct.

Equality is an irrational concept, and is the founding principle of any Liberal belief.

Half-true. You're implying social equality, meaning that socially, everyone is the same; liberals, on the other hand, believe in equality before the law, meaning that everyone is entitled to the same rights before the courts/government. Different concepts, but it is still equality.

The erroneous assumption that all things which are not equal, should be made equal, is against all principles which make this country great. Equality should have a basis, Liberals believe otherwise.

That doesn't make much sense, because the US was founded on the principles of equality before the law. And I don't know what you mean by "equality should have a basis." Do you mean that equality should be pinned to a concept? There is many; human rights, civil rights, marriage rights, etc.
mongeese
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12/12/2009 1:32:16 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 12/12/2009 1:28:35 PM, Volkov wrote:
Half-true. You're implying social equality, meaning that socially, everyone is the same; liberals, on the other hand, believe in equality before the law, meaning that everyone is entitled to the same rights before the courts/government. Different concepts, but it is still equality.

Progressive Tax and Welfare are liberal attempts to make everybody have similar amounts of money.

Affirmative Action is a liberal attempt to artifically make everybody equal before the employers, something the employers generally don't want to have to do.

Overall, liberals believe in both, and I only agree with them on the equality in the law.
Volkov
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12/12/2009 1:42:32 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 12/12/2009 1:32:16 PM, mongeese wrote:
Progressive Tax and Welfare are liberal attempts to make everybody have similar amounts of money.

Incorrect. Welfare is an attempt to allow individuals the chance to survive on the bottom line until they can rebuild themselves, not to give them the same money as everyone else, otherwise welfare recipients would be driving Porsche's. Welfare is about giving them the opportunity to make it in life, rather than die and starve on the streets.

And progressive taxation is simply good fiscal sense, not 'liberal' social engineering.

Affirmative Action is a liberal attempt to artifically make everybody equal before the employers, something the employers generally don't want to have to do.

I don't agree with affirmative action, but I do see the reasoning behind it. It would be better, however, to simply enforce laws against employer discrimination, rather than actively working the system with AA, which in my experience, tends to be more social democratic.

Overall, liberals believe in both, and I only agree with them on the equality in the law.

Those that believe in 'both' are more often than not social democrats. Not that there cannot be crossover, mind you.
Kleptin
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12/12/2009 4:15:12 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 12/12/2009 1:42:32 PM, Volkov wrote:
Incorrect. Welfare is an attempt to allow individuals the chance to survive on the bottom line until they can rebuild themselves, not to give them the same money as everyone else, otherwise welfare recipients would be driving Porsche's. Welfare is about giving them the opportunity to make it in life, rather than die and starve on the streets.

That's what it should be, but that's not what it is. People can be on welfare their entire lives.
: At 5/2/2010 2:43:54 PM, innomen wrote:
It isn't about finding a theory, philosophy or doctrine and thinking it's the answer, but a practical application of one's experiences that is the answer.

: At 10/28/2010 2:40:07 PM, jharry wrote: I have already been given the greatest Gift that anyone could ever hope for [Life], I would consider myself selfish if I expected anything more.
PoeJoe
Posts: 3,822
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12/12/2009 4:28:50 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 12/12/2009 4:15:12 PM, Kleptin wrote:
At 12/12/2009 1:42:32 PM, Volkov wrote:
Incorrect. Welfare is an attempt to allow individuals the chance to survive on the bottom line until they can rebuild themselves, not to give them the same money as everyone else, otherwise welfare recipients would be driving Porsche's. Welfare is about giving them the opportunity to make it in life, rather than die and starve on the streets.

That's what it should be, but that's not what it is. People can be on welfare their entire lives.

So welfare needs to be reformed. Needing reform =/= doing away with it.
Television Rot: http://tvrot.com...
Volkov
Posts: 9,765
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12/12/2009 4:33:53 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 12/12/2009 4:28:50 PM, PoeJoe wrote:
At 12/12/2009 4:15:12 PM, Kleptin wrote:
At 12/12/2009 1:42:32 PM, Volkov wrote:
Incorrect. Welfare is an attempt to allow individuals the chance to survive on the bottom line until they can rebuild themselves, not to give them the same money as everyone else, otherwise welfare recipients would be driving Porsche's. Welfare is about giving them the opportunity to make it in life, rather than die and starve on the streets.

That's what it should be, but that's not what it is. People can be on welfare their entire lives.

So welfare needs to be reformed. Needing reform =/= doing away with it.

Thanks PoeJoe. Fist bump. :D
wjmelements
Posts: 8,206
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12/12/2009 4:35:38 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 12/12/2009 4:28:50 PM, PoeJoe wrote:
At 12/12/2009 4:15:12 PM, Kleptin wrote:
At 12/12/2009 1:42:32 PM, Volkov wrote:
Incorrect. Welfare is an attempt to allow individuals the chance to survive on the bottom line until they can rebuild themselves, not to give them the same money as everyone else, otherwise welfare recipients would be driving Porsche's. Welfare is about giving them the opportunity to make it in life, rather than die and starve on the streets.

That's what it should be, but that's not what it is. People can be on welfare their entire lives.

So welfare needs to be reformed. Needing reform =/= doing away with it.

Let's begin practical application. How long should someone be able to sit on the dole?
in the blink of an eye you finally see the light
LeafRod
Posts: 1,548
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12/12/2009 4:50:15 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 12/12/2009 1:14:39 PM, studentathletechristian8 wrote:
Agreed with L and S, but not so sure about C. I'd like to see a section for moderates.

LOL.
wjmelements
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12/12/2009 4:55:42 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 12/12/2009 1:14:39 PM, studentathletechristian8 wrote:
I'd like to see a section for moderates.

You're a conservative down the line on the big issues.
in the blink of an eye you finally see the light
studentathletechristian8
Posts: 5,810
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12/12/2009 8:07:51 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 12/12/2009 4:55:42 PM, wjmelements wrote:
At 12/12/2009 1:14:39 PM, studentathletechristian8 wrote:
I'd like to see a section for moderates.

You're a conservative down the line on the big issues.

Yes, but every political test I've taken lists me as centrist / moderate. I am against both capital punishment and the DADT policy, which is not associated with the Right whatsoever. The big issues do not necessarily explain my complete rationale or feeling on the subjects. I have tendencies to favor exceptions of the issues or to not support an issue whole-heartedly. Ex: Abortion: I do not support it, but wish I was aborted. Flag burning: I do not support it, but really don't care if you do it or not. Gay marriage: I do not support it, but really could care less as long as the married gays are happy and keep their personal matters private. George Bush: I support him because I support every president of the U.S. Do not misinterpret. I feel that most of our U.S. presidents have been $h!tty, but I support all because presidency of a nation is quite a difficult task. I am much more "spiteful" of liberals than conservatives because I used to be conservative. Thus, I am moderate. If you don't believe me, ask me some questions and I'll answer. Then you can decide my ideology.
wjmelements
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12/12/2009 8:15:41 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 12/12/2009 8:07:51 PM, studentathletechristian8 wrote:
If you don't believe me, ask me some questions and I'll answer. Then you can decide my ideology.

-Can economic order occur without regulation?
-Should prostitution be illegal?
-Should the United States work to establish democratic governments in foreign powers?
-Should companies that create the most CO2 be penalized?
-Are industries generally best held under private control?
in the blink of an eye you finally see the light
studentathletechristian8
Posts: 5,810
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12/12/2009 8:24:12 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 12/12/2009 8:15:41 PM, wjmelements wrote:
At 12/12/2009 8:07:51 PM, studentathletechristian8 wrote:
If you don't believe me, ask me some questions and I'll answer. Then you can decide my ideology.

-Can economic order occur without regulation?
-Should prostitution be illegal?
-Should the United States work to establish democratic governments in foreign powers?
-companieShould s that create the most CO2 be penalized?
-Are industries generally best held under private control?

Can economic order occur without regulation?
No.

Should prostitution be illegal?
Yes.

Should the U.S. work to establish democratic governments in foreign powers?
In general, no.

Should companies that create the most CO2 be penalized?
No.

Are industries generally best held under private control?
Yes.
wjmelements
Posts: 8,206
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12/12/2009 8:26:45 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 12/12/2009 8:24:12 PM, studentathletechristian8 wrote:
At 12/12/2009 8:15:41 PM, wjmelements wrote:
-Can economic order occur without regulation?
-Should prostitution be illegal?
-Should the United States work to establish democratic governments in foreign powers?
-companieShould s that create the most CO2 be penalized?
-Are industries generally best held under private control?

Can economic order occur without regulation?
No.

Should prostitution be illegal?
Yes.

Should the U.S. work to establish democratic governments in foreign powers?
In general, no.

Should companies that create the most CO2 be penalized?
No.

Are industries generally best held under private control?
Yes.

You're conservative on everything but foreign policy. You may be paleocon, or you might be something else. You're just not a libertarian (1) and you're not a neocon(3), but you're a conservative.
in the blink of an eye you finally see the light
studentathletechristian8
Posts: 5,810
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12/12/2009 8:32:33 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 12/12/2009 8:26:45 PM, wjmelements wrote:
At 12/12/2009 8:24:12 PM, studentathletechristian8 wrote:
At 12/12/2009 8:15:41 PM, wjmelements wrote:
-Can economic order occur without regulation?
-Should prostitution be illegal?
-Should the United States work to establish democratic governments in foreign powers?
-companieShould s that create the most CO2 be penalized?
-Are industries generally best held under private control?

Can economic order occur without regulation?
No.

Should prostitution be illegal?
Yes.

Should the U.S. work to establish democratic governments in foreign powers?
In general, no.

Should companies that create the most CO2 be penalized?
No.

Are industries generally best held under private control?
Yes.

You're conservative on everything but foreign policy. You may be paleocon, or you might be something else. You're just not a libertarian (1) and you're not a neocon(3), but you're a conservative.

Interesting. Is there a strong relation between conservatives and libertarians? I'm politically ignorant, and have noticed several members (mongeese and cents) who have switched from being conservative to libertarian.
wjmelements
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12/12/2009 8:35:24 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 12/12/2009 8:32:33 PM, studentathletechristian8 wrote:
Interesting. Is there a strong relation between conservatives and libertarians? I'm politically ignorant, and have noticed several members (mongeese and cents) who have switched from being conservative to libertarian.

Not especially. Conservatives just tend to realize that most of their premises contradict and that some of their authoritarian positions aren't particularly valuable.

Conservatives are more moderate economically than libertarians and tend to have some authoritarian views (against abortion, prostitution, and drug use, usually). These authoritarian views are usually based in religion. A neoconservative believes all this and in an active foreign policy.
in the blink of an eye you finally see the light
studentathletechristian8
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12/12/2009 8:37:21 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 12/12/2009 8:35:24 PM, wjmelements wrote:
At 12/12/2009 8:32:33 PM, studentathletechristian8 wrote:
Interesting. Is there a strong relation between conservatives and libertarians? I'm politically ignorant, and have noticed several members (mongeese and cents) who have switched from being conservative to libertarian.

Not especially. Conservatives just tend to realize that most of their premises contradict and that some of their authoritarian positions aren't particularly valuable.

Conservatives are more moderate economically than libertarians and tend to have some authoritarian views (against abortion, prostitution, and drug use, usually). These authoritarian views are usually based in religion. A neoconservative believes all this and in an active foreign policy.

Interesting. Any idea why all the tests I take label me as moderate?
wjmelements
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12/12/2009 8:42:02 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 12/12/2009 8:37:21 PM, studentathletechristian8 wrote:
Interesting. Any idea why all the tests I take label me as moderate?

Tests can be weird and inaccurate. KRF and RoyLatham are both conservatives, but Political Compass puts KRF around 9,7 and Roy towards the middle. They hold similar views.

Ideology is mainly the way of arriving at one's opinions. A conservative usually has a complicated moral system that often trumps the abstractions of liberty and order. The authoritarian values order. The individualist values individual liberty and property.
in the blink of an eye you finally see the light
studentathletechristian8
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12/12/2009 8:51:46 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 12/12/2009 8:42:02 PM, wjmelements wrote:
At 12/12/2009 8:37:21 PM, studentathletechristian8 wrote:
Interesting. Any idea why all the tests I take label me as moderate?

Tests can be weird and inaccurate. KRF and RoyLatham are both conservatives, but Political Compass puts KRF around 9,7 and Roy towards the middle. They hold similar views.

Ideology is mainly the way of arriving at one's opinions. A conservative usually has a complicated moral system that often trumps the abstractions of liberty and order. The authoritarian values order. The individualist values individual liberty and property.

By your description, I guess I am conservative. I don't know why I mention this, but here's a little story: I have a Spanish teacher who is quite liberal and heavily supports Obama's health care plan. After researching and figuring what Obamacare would cost and how it would affect society (of course, coming from my conservative viewpoint), I decided to tell my teacher that to counteract the Democratic proposition, Republicans were making a plan of their own. I then stated all of the negatives of the Democratic proposal, but tricked her by associating them with the Republican form of health care instead of the Democratic. After she told me that Republicans are stupid for supporting that kind of plan, I couldn't stop laughing the entire period. I know so many so-called "liberals" who only support Obama because of ignorance. I really despise people.
Vi_Veri
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12/12/2009 8:54:49 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 12/12/2009 8:51:46 PM, studentathletechristian8 wrote:
At 12/12/2009 8:42:02 PM, wjmelements wrote:
At 12/12/2009 8:37:21 PM, studentathletechristian8 wrote:
Interesting. Any idea why all the tests I take label me as moderate?

Tests can be weird and inaccurate. KRF and RoyLatham are both conservatives, but Political Compass puts KRF around 9,7 and Roy towards the middle. They hold similar views.

Ideology is mainly the way of arriving at one's opinions. A conservative usually has a complicated moral system that often trumps the abstractions of liberty and order. The authoritarian values order. The individualist values individual liberty and property.

By your description, I guess I am conservative. I don't know why I mention this, but here's a little story: I have a Spanish teacher who is quite liberal and heavily supports Obama's health care plan. After researching and figuring what Obamacare would cost and how it would affect society (of course, coming from my conservative viewpoint), I decided to tell my teacher that to counteract the Democratic proposition, Republicans were making a plan of their own. I then stated all of the negatives of the Democratic proposal, but tricked her by associating them with the Republican form of health care instead of the Democratic. After she told me that Republicans are stupid for supporting that kind of plan, I couldn't stop laughing the entire period. I know so many so-called "liberals" who only support Obama because of ignorance. I really despise people.

They pulled this trick once on the public :) Let me see if I can find the video for you
I could give a f about no haters as long as my ishes love me.
Kleptin
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12/12/2009 9:40:34 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 12/12/2009 4:28:50 PM, PoeJoe wrote:
So welfare needs to be reformed. Needing reform =/= doing away with it.

When did I say that it needs to be done away with?

There are a lot of reforms that need to be made with liberal-supported things. Liberals are so busy trying to implement more changes, they barely have enough time to notice that the changes they implemented beforehand need to be fixed themselves.
: At 5/2/2010 2:43:54 PM, innomen wrote:
It isn't about finding a theory, philosophy or doctrine and thinking it's the answer, but a practical application of one's experiences that is the answer.

: At 10/28/2010 2:40:07 PM, jharry wrote: I have already been given the greatest Gift that anyone could ever hope for [Life], I would consider myself selfish if I expected anything more.
brian_eggleston
Posts: 3,347
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12/13/2009 5:32:52 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
C.

Firstly it is important not to confuse socialism with communism: they are as different as capitalism and fascism.

One of the biggest distinctions is that socialism operates within a democratic framework whereas communism does not.

Also, it is wrong to portray socialists as dangerous radicals or misguided militants. Remember, the biggest political grouping in the European Parliament is the Social Democrats (essentially a coalition of socialist and centre-left political parties) and there is nothing radical or militant about daily life in Brussels or Strasbourg I can assure you!

Essentially, socialism is all about dismantling the vested interest of the privileged few and devolving economic power down to the dispossessed majority in an effort to ensure that people succeed on merit and not on how rich or well-connected their parents happen to be.
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Kleptin
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12/13/2009 10:40:49 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 12/13/2009 5:32:52 AM, brian_eggleston wrote:
Essentially, socialism is all about dismantling the vested interest of the privileged few and devolving economic power down to the dispossessed majority in an effort to ensure that people succeed on merit and not on how rich or well-connected their parents happen to be.

Alright, this is a fair representation. Now, what type of legislation and reform does this entail?
: At 5/2/2010 2:43:54 PM, innomen wrote:
It isn't about finding a theory, philosophy or doctrine and thinking it's the answer, but a practical application of one's experiences that is the answer.

: At 10/28/2010 2:40:07 PM, jharry wrote: I have already been given the greatest Gift that anyone could ever hope for [Life], I would consider myself selfish if I expected anything more.
brian_eggleston
Posts: 3,347
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12/13/2009 1:10:43 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 12/13/2009 10:40:49 AM, Kleptin wrote:
At 12/13/2009 5:32:52 AM, brian_eggleston wrote:
Essentially, socialism is all about dismantling the vested interest of the privileged few and devolving economic power down to the dispossessed majority in an effort to ensure that people succeed on merit and not on how rich or well-connected their parents happen to be.

Alright, this is a fair representation. Now, what type of legislation and reform does this entail?

Well it's all about increments and gradual improvements rather than revolutionary change but all policies should be directed at the gradual redistribution of wealth – primarily though the closure of tax loopholes that the rich cuurently exploit and making private education and healthcare less attractive by investing in the publically-funded alternatives.
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