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Stand your Ground: The Inconvenient Truth

DoubtingDave
Posts: 380
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8/3/2013 2:06:42 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
The inconvenient truth about the so-called "stand your ground laws" is that blacks benefit most from the law. Is that why the racist liberal loons are dying to get rid of it?



Stand Your Ground laws have become a racial issue in the aftermath of the not guilty . President Obama and Attorney General Holder have weighed in, linking race and these laws.

On ABC News' "This Week," radio talk show host Travis Smiley declared what many think: "It appears to me, and I think many other persons in this country that you can in fact stand your ground unless you are a black man."


Read more: http://www.foxnews.com...
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DetectableNinja
Posts: 6,043
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8/3/2013 2:08:08 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
Sigh...you had so much potential, Dave. And then you embraced the dark side.
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darkkermit
Posts: 11,204
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8/3/2013 2:29:29 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
What is wrong with his analysis?

I for one like the dark side of DoubtingDave.

Also, Zimmerman didn't plea based on stand-your-ground. He pleaded based on self defense. Not much chances to run when you have someone on top of you beating you to a pulp.
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DoubtingDave
Posts: 380
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8/3/2013 2:33:17 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 8/3/2013 2:29:29 PM, darkkermit wrote:
What is wrong with his analysis?

I for one like the dark side of DoubtingDave.

Also, Zimmerman didn't plea based on stand-your-ground. He pleaded based on self defense. Not much chances to run when you have someone on top of you beating you to a pulp.

This. The Stand Your Ground laws state simply that if under attack, you do not have to retreat. In Zimmerman's case, he couldn't retreat so the Zimmerman trial had nothing to do with the SYG law.

Why should anyone be forced to retreat if under attack?
The Great Wall of Fail

"I have doubts that anti-semitism even exists" -GeoLaureate8

"Evolutionists think that people evolved from rocks" -Scotty

"And whats so bad about a Holy war? By Holy war, I mean a war which would aim to subdue others under Islam." -Ahmed.M

"The free market didn't create the massive wealth in the country, WW2 did." -malcomxy

"Independant federal regulators make our capitalist society possible." -Erik_Erikson
DetectableNinja
Posts: 6,043
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8/3/2013 2:34:15 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 8/3/2013 2:29:29 PM, darkkermit wrote:
What is wrong with his analysis?

I for one like the dark side of DoubtingDave.

Also, Zimmerman didn't plea based on stand-your-ground. He pleaded based on self defense. Not much chances to run when you have someone on top of you beating you to a pulp.

It's not so much the analysis as the childish delivery: "liberal loons," and other buzzphrases are so shallow and played out.

After all, I'm ideologically a libertarian as well, and am planning on registering Republican, but come on: we can be a bit more mature, can't we?
Think'st thou heaven is such a glorious thing?
I tell thee, 'tis not half so fair as thou
Or any man that breathes on earth.

- Christopher Marlowe, Doctor Faustus
DoubtingDave
Posts: 380
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8/3/2013 2:35:17 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 8/3/2013 2:34:15 PM, DetectableNinja wrote:
At 8/3/2013 2:29:29 PM, darkkermit wrote:
What is wrong with his analysis?

I for one like the dark side of DoubtingDave.

Also, Zimmerman didn't plea based on stand-your-ground. He pleaded based on self defense. Not much chances to run when you have someone on top of you beating you to a pulp.

It's not so much the analysis as the childish delivery: "liberal loons," and other buzzphrases are so shallow and played out.

After all, I'm ideologically a libertarian as well, and am planning on registering Republican, but come on: we can be a bit more mature, can't we?

Meh, I agree that was probably over-the-top and shouldn't have used so forceful words.
The Great Wall of Fail

"I have doubts that anti-semitism even exists" -GeoLaureate8

"Evolutionists think that people evolved from rocks" -Scotty

"And whats so bad about a Holy war? By Holy war, I mean a war which would aim to subdue others under Islam." -Ahmed.M

"The free market didn't create the massive wealth in the country, WW2 did." -malcomxy

"Independant federal regulators make our capitalist society possible." -Erik_Erikson
Such
Posts: 1,110
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8/3/2013 2:40:02 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
There was once a time when someone who killed someone else during an unarmed fistfight would go to prison for second degree murder.

Police officers have lost their careers and were even prosecuted for less egregiousness than Zimmerman's actions.

The quote to which DoubtingDave referred was actually indicating that the "Stand Your Ground" laws actually apply more aptly to Martin than Zimmerman, given he was unarmed and didn't approach (and stalk) Zimmerman, and thus, could have felt even more threatened than Zimmerman did.
darkkermit
Posts: 11,204
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8/3/2013 2:44:25 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 8/3/2013 2:34:15 PM, DetectableNinja wrote:
At 8/3/2013 2:29:29 PM, darkkermit wrote:
What is wrong with his analysis?

I for one like the dark side of DoubtingDave.

Also, Zimmerman didn't plea based on stand-your-ground. He pleaded based on self defense. Not much chances to run when you have someone on top of you beating you to a pulp.

It's not so much the analysis as the childish delivery: "liberal loons," and other buzzphrases are so shallow and played out.

After all, I'm ideologically a libertarian as well, and am planning on registering Republican, but come on: we can be a bit more mature, can't we?

Fair enough point. I know you're a libertarian, although not sure where you stand on this issue.
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DetectableNinja
Posts: 6,043
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8/3/2013 2:47:38 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 8/3/2013 2:44:25 PM, darkkermit wrote:
At 8/3/2013 2:34:15 PM, DetectableNinja wrote:
At 8/3/2013 2:29:29 PM, darkkermit wrote:
What is wrong with his analysis?

I for one like the dark side of DoubtingDave.

Also, Zimmerman didn't plea based on stand-your-ground. He pleaded based on self defense. Not much chances to run when you have someone on top of you beating you to a pulp.

It's not so much the analysis as the childish delivery: "liberal loons," and other buzzphrases are so shallow and played out.

After all, I'm ideologically a libertarian as well, and am planning on registering Republican, but come on: we can be a bit more mature, can't we?

Fair enough point. I know you're a libertarian, although not sure where you stand on this issue.

Oh, I think Zimmerman was definitely a bit irresponsible, and handled the issue like a grade-A @sshole afterward and during the trial and all that, but I think he was legally within his bounds to do what he did.
Think'st thou heaven is such a glorious thing?
I tell thee, 'tis not half so fair as thou
Or any man that breathes on earth.

- Christopher Marlowe, Doctor Faustus
000ike
Posts: 11,196
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8/3/2013 2:54:59 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 8/3/2013 2:06:42 PM, DoubtingDave wrote:
The inconvenient truth about the so-called "stand your ground laws" is that blacks benefit most from the law. Is that why the racist liberal loons are dying to get rid of it?



Stand Your Ground laws have become a racial issue in the aftermath of the not guilty . President Obama and Attorney General Holder have weighed in, linking race and these laws.

On ABC News' "This Week," radio talk show host Travis Smiley declared what many think: "It appears to me, and I think many other persons in this country that you can in fact stand your ground unless you are a black man."


Read more: http://www.foxnews.com...

All this partisan rhetoric only to advertise an article? seriously?...
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imabench
Posts: 21,216
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8/3/2013 2:58:44 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 8/3/2013 2:06:42 PM, DoubtingDave wrote:
The inconvenient truth about the so-called "stand your ground laws" is that blacks benefit most from the law. Is that why the racist liberal loons are dying to get rid of it?

Holding onto that



Stand Your Ground laws have become a racial issue in the aftermath of the not guilty . President Obama and Attorney General Holder have weighed in, linking race and these laws.

On ABC News' "This Week," radio talk show host Travis Smiley declared what many think: "It appears to me, and I think many other persons in this country that you can in fact stand your ground unless you are a black man."


Read more: http://www.foxnews.com...
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Wnope
Posts: 6,924
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8/4/2013 2:21:35 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 8/3/2013 2:06:42 PM, DoubtingDave wrote:
The inconvenient truth about the so-called "stand your ground laws" is that blacks benefit most from the law. Is that why the racist liberal loons are dying to get rid of it?



Stand Your Ground laws have become a racial issue in the aftermath of the not guilty . President Obama and Attorney General Holder have weighed in, linking race and these laws.

On ABC News' "This Week," radio talk show host Travis Smiley declared what many think: "It appears to me, and I think many other persons in this country that you can in fact stand your ground unless you are a black man."


Read more: http://www.foxnews.com...

It helps to read sources, not just Fox News. Let's see what their source says about Stand Your Ground and why it may not be such a great idea:

"If you claim "stand your ground" as the reason you shot someone, what happens to you can depend less on the merits of the case than on who you are, whom you kill and where your case is decided."

"Florida's "stand your ground' law has allowed drug dealers to avoid murder charges and gang members to walk free. It has stymied prosecutors and confused judges. "

" People often go free under "stand your ground" in cases that seem to make a mockery of what lawmakers intended. One man killed two unarmed people and walked out of jail. Another shot a man as he lay on the ground. Others went free after shooting their victims in the back."

"Similar cases can have opposite outcomes. Depending on who decided their cases, some drug dealers claiming self-defense have gone to prison while others have been set free. The same holds true for killers who left a fight, only to arm themselves and return. "

"Claiming "stand your ground,' people have used force to meet force outside an ice cream parlor, on a racquetball court and at a school bus stop. Two-thirds of the defendants used guns, though weapons have included an ice pick, shovel and chair leg."

"Derrick Hansberry thought John Webster was having an affair with his estranged wife, so he confronted Webster on a basketball court in Dade City in 2005. A fight broke out and Hansberry shot his unarmed rival at least five times, putting him in the hospital for three weeks.

Ultimately, a jury acquitted Hansberry [against wishes of judge and police]."

" During an argument at a 2009 party in Fort Myers, Omar Bonilla fired his gun into the ground and beat Demarro Battle, then went inside and gave the gun to a friend. If Battle feared for his life, he had time to flee. Instead, he got a gun from his car and returned to shoot Bonilla three times, including once in the back. Battle was not charged in the slaying.

At another party in the same town five months later, Reginald Etienne and Joshua Sands were arguing. Etienne left the party and returned with a knife. During a fistfight between the two men, Etienne fatally stabbed Sands. He was sent to prison for life."

" police Chief Mike Chitwood used the "stand your ground" law as the rationale for not filing charges in two drug deals that ended in deaths. He said he was prevented from going forward because the accused shooters had permits to carry concealed weapons and they claimed they were defending themselves at the time. "

"The judge said he had no choice but to grant immunity to two men who fired the AK-47 responsible for the death even though they fired 25 to 30 times outside an apartment complex. The reason: It could not be proved they fired first. "

"Two men fell into the water while fighting on a dock. When one started climbing out of the water, the other shot him in the back of the head, killing him. He was acquitted after arguing "stand your ground.""

"A Seventh-day Adventist was acting erratically, doing cartwheels through an apartment complex parking lot, pounding on cars and apartment windows and setting off alarms. A tenant who felt threatened by the man's behavior shot and killed him. He was not charged. "

""The limitations imposed on us by the 'stand your ground' laws made it impossible for any prosecutor to pursue murder charges,' Griffith of the Miami-Dade State Attorney's Office said at the time. "This is certainly a very difficult thing to tell a grieving family member.' "

Judges, without the input of a jury, are allowed to give immunity to killers if they so wish and the case will never go to trial.

What, precisely, is so horrific about self-defense as the only standard? That you can kill someone only if there is no way you can get out of there? That you can't kill someone just because you don't feel like running away.