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How to Debate Libertarians: A Guide

Wallstreetatheist
Posts: 7,132
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8/6/2013 10:45:53 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
1. Accuse them of wearing tin foil hats
2. Accuse them of being racist
3. Accuse them of lying
4. Accuse them of hating the poor
5. Accuse them of being Utopians
6. Accuse them of being pacifists
7. Accuse them of being hippies
8. Accuse them of being rednecks
10. Without specifying, tell them that their ideas are unrealistic
11. Accuse them of being emo
12. Accuse them of living in their mom's basement
13. Accuse them of being college kids and tell them "You'll grow up one day."
14. Accuse them of being greedy
15. Accuse them of wanting to control people
16. Accuse them of being cultists
17. Accuse them of being 'pot smoking Republicans'
18. Accuse them of being anti-American
19. Accuse them of being commies
20. Never, ever seriously consider their ideas
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Primal Diet. Lifting. Reading. Psychedelics. Cold-Approach Pickup. Music.
ConservativeAmerican
Posts: 1,676
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8/6/2013 11:02:46 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 8/6/2013 10:45:53 PM, Wallstreetatheist wrote:
1. Accuse them of wearing tin foil hats
2. Accuse them of being racist
3. Accuse them of lying
4. Accuse them of hating the poor
5. Accuse them of being Utopians
6. Accuse them of being pacifists
7. Accuse them of being hippies
8. Accuse them of being rednecks
10. Without specifying, tell them that their ideas are unrealistic
11. Accuse them of being emo
12. Accuse them of living in their mom's basement
13. Accuse them of being college kids and tell them "You'll grow up one day."
14. Accuse them of being greedy
15. Accuse them of wanting to control people
16. Accuse them of being cultists
17. Accuse them of being 'pot smoking Republicans'
18. Accuse them of being anti-American
19. Accuse them of being commies
20. Never, ever seriously consider their ideas

I wouldn't say this is common on here, but in real life by the average person, it is.
Ore_Ele
Posts: 25,980
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8/6/2013 11:15:30 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 8/6/2013 10:45:53 PM, Wallstreetatheist wrote:
1. Accuse them of wearing tin foil hats
2. Accuse them of being racist
3. Accuse them of lying
4. Accuse them of hating the poor
5. Accuse them of being Utopians
6. Accuse them of being pacifists
7. Accuse them of being hippies
8. Accuse them of being rednecks
10. Without specifying, tell them that their ideas are unrealistic
11. Accuse them of being emo
12. Accuse them of living in their mom's basement
13. Accuse them of being college kids and tell them "You'll grow up one day."
14. Accuse them of being greedy
15. Accuse them of wanting to control people
16. Accuse them of being cultists
17. Accuse them of being 'pot smoking Republicans'
18. Accuse them of being anti-American
19. Accuse them of being commies
20. Never, ever seriously consider their ideas

There is a similar list with debating authoritarians, usually involving the phrases "fascist" "nazi" "freedom haters" etc.
"Wanting Red Rhino Pill to have gender"
jimtimmy2
Posts: 403
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8/6/2013 11:27:45 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 8/6/2013 11:15:30 PM, Ore_Ele wrote:
At 8/6/2013 10:45:53 PM, Wallstreetatheist wrote:
1. Accuse them of wearing tin foil hats
2. Accuse them of being racist
3. Accuse them of lying
4. Accuse them of hating the poor
5. Accuse them of being Utopians
6. Accuse them of being pacifists
7. Accuse them of being hippies
8. Accuse them of being rednecks
10. Without specifying, tell them that their ideas are unrealistic
11. Accuse them of being emo
12. Accuse them of living in their mom's basement
13. Accuse them of being college kids and tell them "You'll grow up one day."
14. Accuse them of being greedy
15. Accuse them of wanting to control people
16. Accuse them of being cultists
17. Accuse them of being 'pot smoking Republicans'
18. Accuse them of being anti-American
19. Accuse them of being commies
20. Never, ever seriously consider their ideas

There is a similar list with debating authoritarians, usually involving the phrases "fascist" "nazi" "freedom haters" etc.

What would you know?! You freedom hating nazi!
DeFool
Posts: 626
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8/6/2013 11:53:34 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
We can also include the impact that actual libertarian policies have had as a means of challenging their ideas. This often works better than name-calling.

An example is easy to find:

"In order to achieve a free economy, we oppose all government subsidies to business, labor, education, agriculture, science, broadcasting, the arts, sports, or any other special interest. In particular, we condemn any effort to forge an alliance between government and business under the guise of "industrial policy."
Source: National Platform of the Libertarian Party , Jul 2, 200

Or:

" We support abolition of trade barriers and government-sponsored export-promotion programs, as well as the U.S. International Trade Commission and the U.S. Court of International Trade. Concurrent shall be the complete withdrawal from all trade agreements including the General Agreement on Tariffs and Trade and the North American Free Trade Agreement."
Source: National Platform of the Libertarian Party , Jul 2, 2000

These are key to the Libertarian Platform. Please provide examples where these policies have been actually implemented. We can discuss the impact that such decisions have made.

I can think of a few examples of nations who have neglected to fund education, and who have violated international agreements that the other side had respected. I cannot find any positive results of this. Perhaps a staunch libertarian can educate me.
ClassicRobert
Posts: 2,487
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8/7/2013 11:19:17 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 8/6/2013 11:53:34 PM, DeFool wrote:
We can also include the impact that actual libertarian policies have had as a means of challenging their ideas. This often works better than name-calling.

An example is easy to find:

"In order to achieve a free economy, we oppose all government subsidies to business, labor, education, agriculture, science, broadcasting, the arts, sports, or any other special interest. In particular, we condemn any effort to forge an alliance between government and business under the guise of "industrial policy."
Source: National Platform of the Libertarian Party , Jul 2, 200

These subsidies create an economy where goods are inefficiently distributed. Take, for example, the corn subsidy. Not only does it make it cheaper in comparison to vegetables to produce and consume, but this also means that much more of it is consumed than people would even care to consume in the first place. However, personally, I see education as something the government can get behind, in the other examples you've given, it would be better and more efficient to just let supply and demand do its job.

Or:

" We support abolition of trade barriers and government-sponsored export-promotion programs, as well as the U.S. International Trade Commission and the U.S. Court of International Trade. Concurrent shall be the complete withdrawal from all trade agreements including the General Agreement on Tariffs and Trade and the North American Free Trade Agreement."
Source: National Platform of the Libertarian Party , Jul 2, 2000


Free trade allows countries to consume outside of what the countries produce, thus increasing worldwide competition and driving prices down and quality up across the entire world.

These are key to the Libertarian Platform. Please provide examples where these policies have been actually implemented. We can discuss the impact that such decisions have made.

I can think of a few examples of nations who have neglected to fund education, and who have violated international agreements that the other side had respected. I cannot find any positive results of this. Perhaps a staunch libertarian can educate me.
Debate me: Economic decision theory should be adjusted to include higher-order preferences for non-normative purposes http://www.debate.org...

Do you really believe that? Or not? If you believe it, you should man up and defend it in a debate. -RoyLatham

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Stephen_Hawkins
Posts: 5,316
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8/7/2013 11:23:09 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 8/7/2013 11:07:52 AM, ZakYoungTheLibertarian wrote:
hong kong,

A city.

botswana,

One Nation Toryism for the last fifty years is essentially anathema to libertarianis, lol. Its success has been from truly conservative ideals, not the libertarian ones. Note a key part of his economic policy is the emphasis on a truly mixed marketplace with government and private corporations working hand in hand to equitable goals:

"The second D, Development, refers to improving the standard of living of Batswana. This will manifest itself through the continued provision of national infrastructure such as roads, hospitals, electricity, schools, stadia and other life affirming opportunities, most importantly jobs. For this to happen, we have to create an enabling environment for the private sector, and to actively encourage it to become the driving force of and the main investor in our economy. Government cannot alone bring about change. I also expect the private sector to do much more in support of the change process, especially in areas such as innovation, staff training and skills development. "

And note the emphasis on discipline:

"Allow me to highlight some of the social problems in our society that we need to address as a nation. These range from alcohol abuse, reckless driving on our roads, disrespect for elders, vandalising of school property, wastage of scarce resources such as water, the use of abusive language in public discourse and defamation, slander and false statements in the media. The examples I have cited reflect a lack of discipline by some sections of our community. "

In President Khama's address. They are libertarian in the same way Lock was a die hard atheist.

america

Someone else can expand on how this shall in ten posts time be shown as how a lack of libertarianism or Big Government in the USA is causing problems or something.
Give a man a fish, he'll eat for a day. Teach him how to be Gay, he'll positively influence the GDP.

Social Contract Theory debate: http://www.debate.org...
DeFool
Posts: 626
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8/7/2013 1:51:05 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 8/7/2013 11:19:17 AM, ClassicRobert wrote:
At 8/6/2013 11:53:34 PM, DeFool wrote:
We can also include the impact that actual libertarian policies have had as a means of challenging their ideas. This often works better than name-calling.

An example is easy to find:

"In order to achieve a free economy, we oppose all government subsidies to business, labor, education, agriculture, science, broadcasting, the arts, sports, or any other special interest. In particular, we condemn any effort to forge an alliance between government and business under the guise of "industrial policy."
Source: National Platform of the Libertarian Party , Jul 2, 200

These subsidies create an economy where goods are inefficiently distributed. Take, for example, the corn subsidy. Not only does it make it cheaper in comparison to vegetables to produce and consume, but this also means that much more of it is consumed than people would even care to consume in the first place. However, personally, I see education as something the government can get behind, in the other examples you've given, it would be better and more efficient to just let supply and demand do its job.

Or:

" We support abolition of trade barriers and government-sponsored export-promotion programs, as well as the U.S. International Trade Commission and the U.S. Court of International Trade. Concurrent shall be the complete withdrawal from all trade agreements including the General Agreement on Tariffs and Trade and the North American Free Trade Agreement."
Source: National Platform of the Libertarian Party , Jul 2, 2000


Free trade allows countries to consume outside of what the countries produce, thus increasing worldwide competition and driving prices down and quality up across the entire world.

These are key to the Libertarian Platform. Please provide examples where these policies have been actually implemented. We can discuss the impact that such decisions have made.

I can think of a few examples of nations who have neglected to fund education, and who have violated international agreements that the other side had respected. I cannot find any positive results of this. Perhaps a staunch libertarian can educate me.

I understand the hypothetical scenarios. "If we adopt these libertarian policies, this will be the result."

However, I suspect that evaluating the actual impact of these precise policies will critically injure the case for libertarianism. Do you have any real-life examples of these policies in practice - not theory?

As it happens, I know a test case that we may analyze: Somalia.
Eitan_Zohar
Posts: 2,697
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8/7/2013 2:52:38 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 8/6/2013 10:45:53 PM, Wallstreetatheist wrote:
1. Accuse them of wearing tin foil hats
2. Accuse them of being racist
3. Accuse them of lying
4. Accuse them of hating the poor
5. Accuse them of being Utopians
6. Accuse them of being pacifists
7. Accuse them of being hippies
8. Accuse them of being rednecks
10. Without specifying, tell them that their ideas are unrealistic
11. Accuse them of being emo
12. Accuse them of living in their mom's basement
13. Accuse them of being college kids and tell them "You'll grow up one day."
14. Accuse them of being greedy
15. Accuse them of wanting to control people
16. Accuse them of being cultists
17. Accuse them of being 'pot smoking Republicans'
18. Accuse them of being anti-American
19. Accuse them of being commies
20. Never, ever seriously consider their ideas

You'll grow up one day. :(
"It is my ambition to say in ten sentences what others say in a whole book."
000ike
Posts: 11,196
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8/7/2013 3:01:19 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 8/6/2013 10:45:53 PM, Wallstreetatheist wrote:
1. Accuse them of wearing tin foil hats
2. Accuse them of being racist
3. Accuse them of lying
4. Accuse them of hating the poor
5. Accuse them of being Utopians
6. Accuse them of being pacifists
7. Accuse them of being hippies
8. Accuse them of being rednecks
10. Without specifying, tell them that their ideas are unrealistic
11. Accuse them of being emo
12. Accuse them of living in their mom's basement
13. Accuse them of being college kids and tell them "You'll grow up one day."
14. Accuse them of being greedy
15. Accuse them of wanting to control people
16. Accuse them of being cultists
17. Accuse them of being 'pot smoking Republicans'
18. Accuse them of being anti-American
19. Accuse them of being commies
20. Never, ever seriously consider their ideas

Or we simply accuse them of being over-zealous ideologues whose political leanings are informed solely by fleeting interests - which would be accurate. But to be fair, that applies to liberals and conservatives too. In fact, it applies to most people, if not nearly all of them. Politics - the self-righteous offspring of ethics - equally want-based - equally baseless.
"A stupid despot may constrain his slaves with iron chains; but a true politician binds them even more strongly with the chain of their own ideas" - Michel Foucault
DeFool
Posts: 626
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8/7/2013 4:02:30 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
I admit to thinking that libertarians are cute, in the same way that puppies are. There are reasons for this, but many things that a libertarian nation could do that would change my attitude.

One of my main criticisms is the strange fact that it is almost impossible to exaggerate what libertarians seem to want.

As I make the following wild accusations, try to imagine the likelihood that, no matter how extreme my statement, it will nevertheless find many libertarians in agreement:

-Libertarians would allow children to use hard drugs, such as cocaine and meth
-Libertarians would abolish all forms of taxation
-Libertarians would outlaw worker activism and collective bargaining
-Libertarians would eliminate entitlements
-Libertarians would allow private police forces and extra-judicial, privatized court action

These statements should be considered hyperbolic. However, many libertarians will loudly defend any of these.

I will, therefore press:

Are there any examples of this in the real world that we can analyze? If libertarians have good ideas, and are proposing a superior system, then why is it so difficult to find a positive example of libertarianism in practice?

I again raise the topic of Somalia, which by rights should be a libertarian utopia:

- Unrestricted access to guns
- No government regulations
- No taxation to speak of
- No public funding of education
- No entitlements
- Very minor levels of public sector hiring
- No EPA equivalent
- Very minimal enforcement of all but the most extreme criminal actions
- Private police forces are common
- Drug use, manufacture and sales are seldom prosecuted
- Labor unions do not dictate to powerful industrialists
- No "tyranny of the majority"
- The Free Market is allowed free reign, with no government meddling

Somalia. Somalia has many of the policies that libertarians are asking for. Are there other examples of "liberty" in action?
Stephen_Hawkins
Posts: 5,316
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8/7/2013 4:07:08 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 8/7/2013 1:51:05 PM, DeFool wrote:
However, I suspect that evaluating the actual impact of these precise policies will critically injure the case for libertarianism. Do you have any real-life examples of these policies in practice - not theory?

As it happens, I know a test case that we may analyze: Somalia.

I agree there are difficulties in finding libertarianism in practice, but taking Somalia as an example just seems to be bad faith more than anything in my eyes.
Give a man a fish, he'll eat for a day. Teach him how to be Gay, he'll positively influence the GDP.

Social Contract Theory debate: http://www.debate.org...
Wallstreetatheist
Posts: 7,132
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8/7/2013 4:10:19 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 8/7/2013 4:02:30 PM, DeFool wrote:
I admit to thinking that libertarians are cute, in the same way that puppies are. There are reasons for this, but many things that a libertarian nation could do that would change my attitude.

One of my main criticisms is the strange fact that it is almost impossible to exaggerate what libertarians seem to want.

As I make the following wild accusations, try to imagine the likelihood that, no matter how extreme my statement, it will nevertheless find many libertarians in agreement:

-Libertarians would allow children to use hard drugs, such as cocaine and meth
-Libertarians would abolish all forms of taxation

Allowing people to keep what they earn is EXTREME. http://www.abc.net.au...
DRUG HARM: http://imgur.com...
Primal Diet. Lifting. Reading. Psychedelics. Cold-Approach Pickup. Music.
DeFool
Posts: 626
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8/7/2013 4:13:33 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 8/7/2013 4:07:08 PM, Stephen_Hawkins wrote:
At 8/7/2013 1:51:05 PM, DeFool wrote:
However, I suspect that evaluating the actual impact of these precise policies will critically injure the case for libertarianism. Do you have any real-life examples of these policies in practice - not theory?

As it happens, I know a test case that we may analyze: Somalia.

I agree there are difficulties in finding libertarianism in practice, but taking Somalia as an example just seems to be bad faith more than anything in my eyes.

I agree that using the stateless region as an exemplar may seem insulting, extreme, or something else.

However, I also justified the use of this region, by pointing out actual libertarian proposals that are currently implemented there. I grant that Somalia is no utopia, and may be anomalous. Let us find other examples of societies with significant levels of libertarian theory in practice. Perhaps one of these unrestricted free markets will not be insulting:

-East Timor
-Sierra Leone
-Democratic Republic of Congo
-Angola
-Yemen... with caveats
Stephen_Hawkins
Posts: 5,316
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8/7/2013 4:18:21 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 8/7/2013 4:13:33 PM, DeFool wrote:
At 8/7/2013 4:07:08 PM, Stephen_Hawkins wrote:
At 8/7/2013 1:51:05 PM, DeFool wrote:
However, I suspect that evaluating the actual impact of these precise policies will critically injure the case for libertarianism. Do you have any real-life examples of these policies in practice - not theory?

As it happens, I know a test case that we may analyze: Somalia.

I agree there are difficulties in finding libertarianism in practice, but taking Somalia as an example just seems to be bad faith more than anything in my eyes.

I agree that using the stateless region as an exemplar may seem insulting, extreme, or something else.

However, I also justified the use of this region, by pointing out actual libertarian proposals that are currently implemented there. I grant that Somalia is no utopia, and may be anomalous. Let us find other examples of societies with significant levels of libertarian theory in practice. Perhaps one of these unrestricted free markets will not be insulting:

-East Timor
-Sierra Leone
-Democratic Republic of Congo
-Angola
-Yemen... with caveats

Firstly, I agree with your conclusions against libertarianism. However, libertarianism, we must remember, is a political ideology and not just an economic stance. It has social rules as well: a very small state which ought to be representative of the people (in other words, democratic), tolerant, etc. and these examples are of course certainly not libertarian in this sense.
Give a man a fish, he'll eat for a day. Teach him how to be Gay, he'll positively influence the GDP.

Social Contract Theory debate: http://www.debate.org...
DeFool
Posts: 626
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8/7/2013 4:29:06 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 8/7/2013 4:18:21 PM, Stephen_Hawkins wrote:
At 8/7/2013 4:13:33 PM, DeFool wrote:
At 8/7/2013 4:07:08 PM, Stephen_Hawkins wrote:
At 8/7/2013 1:51:05 PM, DeFool wrote:
However, I suspect that evaluating the actual impact of these precise policies will critically injure the case for libertarianism. Do you have any real-life examples of these policies in practice - not theory?

As it happens, I know a test case that we may analyze: Somalia.

I agree there are difficulties in finding libertarianism in practice, but taking Somalia as an example just seems to be bad faith more than anything in my eyes.

I agree that using the stateless region as an exemplar may seem insulting, extreme, or something else.

However, I also justified the use of this region, by pointing out actual libertarian proposals that are currently implemented there. I grant that Somalia is no utopia, and may be anomalous. Let us find other examples of societies with significant levels of libertarian theory in practice. Perhaps one of these unrestricted free markets will not be insulting:

-East Timor
-Sierra Leone
-Democratic Republic of Congo
-Angola
-Yemen... with caveats

Firstly, I agree with your conclusions against libertarianism. However, libertarianism, we must remember, is a political ideology and not just an economic stance. It has social rules as well: a very small state which ought to be representative of the people (in other words, democratic), tolerant, etc. and these examples are of course certainly not libertarian in this sense.

I am glad that we agree on the character of libertarianism. However, I insist that these regions have accurately applied libertarian principles. Remember, libertarianism is essentially a form of societal destabilization; marked by an nearly extreme lack of governance or collective action. (Libertarians will not agree with my paint-job, but after criticisms of myself, they will nevertheless like the house I am painting.)

You correctly point out that libertarians 'support' such things as anti-tyranny, democracy, liberty, and so forth. However, in the next breath they will eviscerate the government that provides and protects and implements democracy; they often advocate for such things as private justice systems and police forces. "These" libertarian policies cannot coexist with "those" libertarian policies... which requires us to each calculate which forces are likely to win in the resulting free-for-all death match.

I maintain that the contradictory nature of libertarianism requires us to consider the list of regions that I have provided as possible test cases. I do not claim that my list is definitive. Which is why I have repeatedly challenged any and all supporters of libertarianism to provide other, more flattering examples.

Again, as I understand the argument for libertarianism, the beneficial effects of these policies require the prerequisite of government collapse or absence in order to work. We do not need to consider the subject beyond this removal of governance.
dylancatlow
Posts: 12,244
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8/7/2013 4:50:06 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 8/7/2013 4:13:33 PM, DeFool wrote:
At 8/7/2013 4:07:08 PM, Stephen_Hawkins wrote:
At 8/7/2013 1:51:05 PM, DeFool wrote:
However, I suspect that evaluating the actual impact of these precise policies will critically injure the case for libertarianism. Do you have any real-life examples of these policies in practice - not theory?

As it happens, I know a test case that we may analyze: Somalia.

I agree there are difficulties in finding libertarianism in practice, but taking Somalia as an example just seems to be bad faith more than anything in my eyes.

I agree that using the stateless region as an exemplar may seem insulting, extreme, or something else.

However, I also justified the use of this region, by pointing out actual libertarian proposals that are currently implemented there. I grant that Somalia is no utopia, and may be anomalous. Let us find other examples of societies with significant levels of libertarian theory in practice. Perhaps one of these unrestricted free markets will not be insulting:

-East Timor
-Sierra Leone
-Democratic Republic of Congo
-Angola
-Yemen... with caveats

In any case...Libertarian policies can't make up for a lack of productive capacity. Their full implementation will enable a country to achieve its greatest potential, but will not remedy any shortcomings thereof.
Wnope
Posts: 6,924
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8/7/2013 4:57:23 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 8/6/2013 10:45:53 PM, Wallstreetatheist wrote:
1. Accuse them of wearing tin foil hats
2. Accuse them of being racist
3. Accuse them of lying
4. Accuse them of hating the poor
5. Accuse them of being Utopians
6. Accuse them of being pacifists
7. Accuse them of being hippies
8. Accuse them of being rednecks
10. Without specifying, tell them that their ideas are unrealistic
11. Accuse them of being emo
12. Accuse them of living in their mom's basement
13. Accuse them of being college kids and tell them "You'll grow up one day."
14. Accuse them of being greedy
15. Accuse them of wanting to control people
16. Accuse them of being cultists
17. Accuse them of being 'pot smoking Republicans'
18. Accuse them of being anti-American
19. Accuse them of being commies
20. Never, ever seriously consider their ideas

Why call them this when it's generally a given?
DeFool
Posts: 626
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8/7/2013 4:57:59 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
In any case...Libertarian policies can't make up for a lack of productive capacity. Their full implementation will enable a country to achieve its greatest potential, but will not remedy any shortcomings thereof.

Then, we must say that America cannot be remedied by libertarianism, as well?

You seem to be the spokeman for libertarianism at the moment, since no one else seems willing to defend the theory. I must, present a question to you, therefore.

What are the three most necessary components of liberalism? As I understand, they are:

-Limited to absent government
-Limited to nonexistent taxation
-Limited no no laws
dylancatlow
Posts: 12,244
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8/7/2013 5:05:34 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 8/7/2013 4:57:59 PM, DeFool wrote:
In any case...Libertarian policies can't make up for a lack of productive capacity. Their full implementation will enable a country to achieve its greatest potential, but will not remedy any shortcomings thereof.

Then, we must say that America cannot be remedied by libertarianism, as well?

You seem to be the spokeman for libertarianism at the moment, since no one else seems willing to defend the theory. I must, present a question to you, therefore.

What are the three most necessary components of liberalism? As I understand, they are:

-Limited to absent government
-Limited to nonexistent taxation
-Limited no no laws

I can't speak for libertarians (because I'm an Objectivist) but I'd say only one is necessary: man owns his life. The only justified governmental action is that which complies with this maxim.
Stephen_Hawkins
Posts: 5,316
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8/7/2013 5:05:38 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 8/7/2013 4:50:06 PM, dylancatlow wrote:

In any case...Libertarian policies can't make up for a lack of productive capacity. Their full implementation will enable a country to achieve its greatest potential, but will not remedy any shortcomings thereof.

This sounds a lot like trying to make a trapdoor to escape into where libertarianism fails. One ought to commit to it either being advisable in every circumstance (that is, the pursuit of libertarianism is always a good), or that depending on the context a different ideology (a more authoritarian one such as traditional conservatism for example, or collectivist ideologies) may be beneficial.
Give a man a fish, he'll eat for a day. Teach him how to be Gay, he'll positively influence the GDP.

Social Contract Theory debate: http://www.debate.org...
Stephen_Hawkins
Posts: 5,316
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8/7/2013 5:07:59 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 8/7/2013 4:57:59 PM, DeFool wrote:
What are the three most necessary components of liberalism? As I understand, they are:

Human nature is rationally self-interested. Everything else is naturally derived.
Give a man a fish, he'll eat for a day. Teach him how to be Gay, he'll positively influence the GDP.

Social Contract Theory debate: http://www.debate.org...
DeFool
Posts: 626
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8/7/2013 5:17:29 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 8/7/2013 5:07:59 PM, Stephen_Hawkins wrote:
At 8/7/2013 4:57:59 PM, DeFool wrote:
What are the three most necessary components of liberalism? As I understand, they are:

Human nature is rationally self-interested. Everything else is naturally derived.

Full agreement. My wording:

Humans (unless deranged) want only to survive. This survival consists of:

-Survival of the Individual (health, wealth and happiness)
-Survival of the Group (Football teams, patriotism, family)
-Survival of the Species (Sex Drive, Instinctive Behavior, Self-Sacrifice)

None of these conditions are best provided for in libertarian models. In every instance, clear and likely dangers are everywhere: Will the drug lords private police harass you or your family? Without taxes, will large-scale projects be built, or maintained? Without collective action, will plague decimate the land?

I am convinced that libertarians have memorized a collection of talking points that they use to establish in-group loyalty. I am less convinced that these talking points are actually being intellectually applied to real-world consequences.

Which is why I suggest that we at least humor the last item on the OA list: Let us seriously examine these policies. I only ask that we find any example that we can study.
dylancatlow
Posts: 12,244
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8/7/2013 5:20:19 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 8/7/2013 5:05:38 PM, Stephen_Hawkins wrote:
At 8/7/2013 4:50:06 PM, dylancatlow wrote:

In any case...Libertarian policies can't make up for a lack of productive capacity. Their full implementation will enable a country to achieve its greatest potential, but will not remedy any shortcomings thereof.

This sounds a lot like trying to make a trapdoor to escape into where libertarianism fails.

That's not an unreasonable assessment.

One ought to commit to it either being advisable in every circumstance (that is, the pursuit of libertarianism is always a good), or that depending on the context a different ideology (a more authoritarian one such as traditional conservatism for example, or collectivist ideologies) may be beneficial.

I would commit to that if 'every circumstance' is functionally 'every nation currently'... Abstract thought experiments are irrelevant.
dylancatlow
Posts: 12,244
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8/7/2013 5:33:59 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 8/7/2013 5:17:29 PM, DeFool wrote:
At 8/7/2013 5:07:59 PM, Stephen_Hawkins wrote:
At 8/7/2013 4:57:59 PM, DeFool wrote:
What are the three most necessary components of liberalism? As I understand, they are:

Human nature is rationally self-interested. Everything else is naturally derived.

Full agreement. My wording:

Humans (unless deranged) want only to survive. This survival consists of:

-Survival of the Individual (health, wealth and happiness)
-Survival of the Group (Football teams, patriotism, family)
-Survival of the Species (Sex Drive, Instinctive Behavior, Self-Sacrifice)

None of these conditions are best provided for in libertarian models. In every instance, clear and likely dangers are everywhere:

Will the drug lords private police harass you or your family?

I'm in favor of having some governmental presence, and that includes the police.

Without taxes, will large-scale projects be built, or maintained? Without collective action, will plague decimate the land?

privately funded. And probably not?


I am convinced that libertarians have memorized a collection of talking points that they use to establish in-group loyalty. I am less convinced that these talking points are actually being intellectually applied to real-world consequences.

Which is why I suggest that we at least humor the last item on the OA list: Let us seriously examine these policies. I only ask that we find any example that we can study.
Stephen_Hawkins
Posts: 5,316
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8/7/2013 5:39:48 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
Dylan, I'd point then to examples in the Middle East. Bringing in libertarianism in any way will not benefit the population, as instead another force will come in and overpower the government and replace it with their own force. An obvious example being how the US has tried to replace governments in Iraq, Afghanistan, and others, yet have failed. The culture rejects the Western idea of libertarianism, or even basic liberalism and will never successfully integrate in that nation, unless the nation completely and radically changes its entire personality.

Similarly, Asian nations with the strong basis of the belief in the family and trying to extend this basic unit is essential to society. Libertarianism discards the idea of the supremacy of the family unit over the individual, and therefore would fail among these cultures. The self-interestedness which needs to be at the base of the theory collapses.

Pragmatically, there are many situations where enforcing libertarianism would simply be impractical, unless we're planning on some genocidal attempt to homogenize all cultures into those which would work for libertarianism. In which case, we might as well go for something with grander goals.
Give a man a fish, he'll eat for a day. Teach him how to be Gay, he'll positively influence the GDP.

Social Contract Theory debate: http://www.debate.org...
ConservativeAmerican
Posts: 1,676
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8/7/2013 5:41:58 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 8/7/2013 4:02:30 PM, DeFool wrote:
I admit to thinking that libertarians are cute, in the same way that puppies are. There are reasons for this, but many things that a libertarian nation could do that would change my attitude.

One of my main criticisms is the strange fact that it is almost impossible to exaggerate what libertarians seem to want.

As I make the following wild accusations, try to imagine the likelihood that, no matter how extreme my statement, it will nevertheless find many libertarians in agreement:

-Libertarians would allow children to use hard drugs, such as cocaine and meth

No, libertarians just don't believe in an age of consent, they believe in something more logical like a test. There are children who have higher IQ's and are more responsible than adults, so why stop these children with a one size fits all age of consent?

-Libertarians would abolish all forms of taxation

Small government=/= No government.

-Libertarians would outlaw worker activism and collective bargaining

No, they would just outlaw union lobbying, unions are private organizations are fine, but when they coerce/force people in to joining them that don't support their values, and up until recently used money from union dues (that they forced people to pay) to fund political candidates.

-Libertarians would eliminate entitlements

Yes, because then you can start your own funds and if someone steals from it you can sue them/prosecute them, vs. the government who gets away with thievery.

-Libertarians would allow private police forces and extra-judicial, privatized court action

Privatized jails too.

These statements should be considered hyperbolic. However, many libertarians will loudly defend any of these.

I will, therefore press:

Are there any examples of this in the real world that we can analyze? If libertarians have good ideas, and are proposing a superior system, then why is it so difficult to find a positive example of libertarianism in practice?

I again raise the topic of Somalia, which by rights should be a libertarian utopia:

- Unrestricted access to guns
- No government regulations
- No taxation to speak of
- No public funding of education
- No entitlements
- Very minor levels of public sector hiring
- No EPA equivalent
- Very minimal enforcement of all but the most extreme criminal actions
- Private police forces are common
- Drug use, manufacture and sales are seldom prosecuted
- Labor unions do not dictate to powerful industrialists
- No "tyranny of the majority"
- The Free Market is allowed free reign, with no government meddling

Somalia. Somalia has many of the policies that libertarians are asking for. Are there other examples of "liberty" in action?

There is a difference between a small government and a weak government. A government that cannot sustain order is not libertarian, it's just a weak government. Small does not have to mean weak. For example, in a minarchism there is still a military, police force, justice system, and prison system that are subsidized.
DetectableNinja
Posts: 6,043
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8/7/2013 8:35:27 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 8/7/2013 4:13:33 PM, DeFool wrote:
At 8/7/2013 4:07:08 PM, Stephen_Hawkins wrote:
At 8/7/2013 1:51:05 PM, DeFool wrote:
However, I suspect that evaluating the actual impact of these precise policies will critically injure the case for libertarianism. Do you have any real-life examples of these policies in practice - not theory?

As it happens, I know a test case that we may analyze: Somalia.

I agree there are difficulties in finding libertarianism in practice, but taking Somalia as an example just seems to be bad faith more than anything in my eyes.

I agree that using the stateless region as an exemplar may seem insulting, extreme, or something else.

However, I also justified the use of this region, by pointing out actual libertarian proposals that are currently implemented there. I grant that Somalia is no utopia, and may be anomalous. Let us find other examples of societies with significant levels of libertarian theory in practice. Perhaps one of these unrestricted free markets will not be insulting:

-East Timor
-Sierra Leone
-Democratic Republic of Congo
-Angola
-Yemen... with caveats

That awkward moment when Somalia isn't a stateless region.

Seriously though: there is a VAST, a VAST difference between an incapable government and a capable government that enacts libertarian policies.
Think'st thou heaven is such a glorious thing?
I tell thee, 'tis not half so fair as thou
Or any man that breathes on earth.

- Christopher Marlowe, Doctor Faustus
Eitan_Zohar
Posts: 2,697
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8/7/2013 9:09:31 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 8/7/2013 8:35:27 PM, DetectableNinja wrote:
At 8/7/2013 4:13:33 PM, DeFool wrote:
At 8/7/2013 4:07:08 PM, Stephen_Hawkins wrote:
At 8/7/2013 1:51:05 PM, DeFool wrote:
However, I suspect that evaluating the actual impact of these precise policies will critically injure the case for libertarianism. Do you have any real-life examples of these policies in practice - not theory?

As it happens, I know a test case that we may analyze: Somalia.

I agree there are difficulties in finding libertarianism in practice, but taking Somalia as an example just seems to be bad faith more than anything in my eyes.

I agree that using the stateless region as an exemplar may seem insulting, extreme, or something else.

However, I also justified the use of this region, by pointing out actual libertarian proposals that are currently implemented there. I grant that Somalia is no utopia, and may be anomalous. Let us find other examples of societies with significant levels of libertarian theory in practice. Perhaps one of these unrestricted free markets will not be insulting:

-East Timor
-Sierra Leone
-Democratic Republic of Congo
-Angola
-Yemen... with caveats

That awkward moment when Somalia isn't a stateless region.

Seriously though: there is a VAST, a VAST difference between an incapable government and a capable government that enacts libertarian policies.

The government has very, very little actual jurisdiction. And your latter sentence is a contradiction in terms. How would a government "enact" libertarian policies? The only thing it could do is withdraw and hand more power to the private sphere, which makes your criticism of Somalia's libertarian model pretty bizarre to me.
"It is my ambition to say in ten sentences what others say in a whole book."