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Bradley Manning apologized for hurting US

Cermank
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8/15/2013 10:00:02 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
http://www.bbc.co.uk...

-_-

Although this is largely for the show to reduce his punishment, his apology is kind of heartbreaking.

"In his brief statement on Wednesday, Pte Manning said he had come to realise he should have worked "more aggressively inside the system" to make the changes he sought.

"When I made these decisions I believed I was going to help people, not hurt people," he said.

"Unfortunately, I can't go back and change things."

Pte Manning also said he understood he must "pay a price" for his actions, but hoped one day to go to university and have a meaningful relationship with his sister and other family members."

Like he doesn't even care anymore, about his principles. Defeated.
ararmer1919
Posts: 362
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8/15/2013 12:29:19 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 8/15/2013 10:00:02 AM, Cermank wrote:
http://www.bbc.co.uk...

-_-

Although this is largely for the show to reduce his punishment, his apology is kind of heartbreaking.

"In his brief statement on Wednesday, Pte Manning said he had come to realise he should have worked "more aggressively inside the system" to make the changes he sought.

"When I made these decisions I believed I was going to help people, not hurt people," he said.

"Unfortunately, I can't go back and change things."

Pte Manning also said he understood he must "pay a price" for his actions, but hoped one day to go to university and have a meaningful relationship with his sister and other family members."

Like he doesn't even care anymore, about his principles. Defeated.

His apology means nothing and his punishment will be far less then he deserves. And he was defeated from the moment he decided to betray his nation.
lewis20
Posts: 5,093
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8/15/2013 12:42:39 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
Reminds me of the end of 1984
"If you are a racist I will attack you with the north"- Abraham Lincoln

"Do not wear clothing woven of two kinds of material" - Leviticus 19 19

"War is a racket" - Smedley Butler
lewis20
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8/15/2013 12:44:29 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 8/15/2013 12:29:19 PM, ararmer1919 wrote:
His apology means nothing and his punishment will be far less then he deserves. And he was defeated from the moment he decided to betray his nation.

As anyone who betrays their nation should be defeated and punished severely?
"If you are a racist I will attack you with the north"- Abraham Lincoln

"Do not wear clothing woven of two kinds of material" - Leviticus 19 19

"War is a racket" - Smedley Butler
Cermank
Posts: 3,773
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8/15/2013 12:48:29 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 8/15/2013 12:29:19 PM, ararmer1919 wrote:
At 8/15/2013 10:00:02 AM, Cermank wrote:
http://www.bbc.co.uk...

-_-

Although this is largely for the show to reduce his punishment, his apology is kind of heartbreaking.

"In his brief statement on Wednesday, Pte Manning said he had come to realise he should have worked "more aggressively inside the system" to make the changes he sought.

"When I made these decisions I believed I was going to help people, not hurt people," he said.

"Unfortunately, I can't go back and change things."

Pte Manning also said he understood he must "pay a price" for his actions, but hoped one day to go to university and have a meaningful relationship with his sister and other family members."

Like he doesn't even care anymore, about his principles. Defeated.

His apology means nothing and his punishment will be far less then he deserves. And he was defeated from the moment he decided to betray his nation.

Soooo... if you are from Pakistan, would you believe it is your duty not to reveal that the aid being given by US is being used to carry out attacks in India by funding the Taliban? Would that be- the moral thing to do, just because you are a Pakistani?

Does your nationality shape your morals? Or rather, if your nation engages in immoral acts, should you, by default, be compliant in those acts?
ararmer1919
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8/15/2013 12:48:31 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 8/15/2013 12:44:29 PM, lewis20 wrote:
At 8/15/2013 12:29:19 PM, ararmer1919 wrote:
His apology means nothing and his punishment will be far less then he deserves. And he was defeated from the moment he decided to betray his nation.

As anyone who betrays their nation should be defeated and punished severely?

Yes.
lewis20
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8/15/2013 12:50:35 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 8/15/2013 12:48:31 PM, ararmer1919 wrote:
At 8/15/2013 12:44:29 PM, lewis20 wrote:
At 8/15/2013 12:29:19 PM, ararmer1919 wrote:
His apology means nothing and his punishment will be far less then he deserves. And he was defeated from the moment he decided to betray his nation.

As anyone who betrays their nation should be defeated and punished severely?

Yes.

Right, so German soldiers and scientists who deserted and fled during WWII deserved the same fate?
"If you are a racist I will attack you with the north"- Abraham Lincoln

"Do not wear clothing woven of two kinds of material" - Leviticus 19 19

"War is a racket" - Smedley Butler
ararmer1919
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8/15/2013 12:58:06 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 8/15/2013 12:50:35 PM, lewis20 wrote:
At 8/15/2013 12:48:31 PM, ararmer1919 wrote:
At 8/15/2013 12:44:29 PM, lewis20 wrote:
At 8/15/2013 12:29:19 PM, ararmer1919 wrote:
His apology means nothing and his punishment will be far less then he deserves. And he was defeated from the moment he decided to betray his nation.

As anyone who betrays their nation should be defeated and punished severely?

Yes.

Right, so German soldiers and scientists who deserted and fled during WWII deserved the same fate?

And here you go comparing the United States to Nazi Germany? Lol that's pretty funny. Got anything better? And to answer your ridicules question while morally no they weren't but by the law of their nation they certainly were.
lewis20
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8/15/2013 1:00:56 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 8/15/2013 12:58:06 PM, ararmer1919 wrote:
At 8/15/2013 12:50:35 PM, lewis20 wrote:
At 8/15/2013 12:48:31 PM, ararmer1919 wrote:
At 8/15/2013 12:44:29 PM, lewis20 wrote:
At 8/15/2013 12:29:19 PM, ararmer1919 wrote:
His apology means nothing and his punishment will be far less then he deserves. And he was defeated from the moment he decided to betray his nation.

As anyone who betrays their nation should be defeated and punished severely?

Yes.

Right, so German soldiers and scientists who deserted and fled during WWII deserved the same fate?

And here you go comparing the United States to Nazi Germany? Lol that's pretty funny. Got anything better? And to answer your ridicules question while morally no they weren't but by the law of their nation they certainly were.

I'm not comparing the two countries, just taking your statement to it's logical conclusion. Do you believe state laws should trump moral laws?
"If you are a racist I will attack you with the north"- Abraham Lincoln

"Do not wear clothing woven of two kinds of material" - Leviticus 19 19

"War is a racket" - Smedley Butler
ararmer1919
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8/15/2013 1:08:41 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 8/15/2013 1:00:56 PM, lewis20 wrote:
At 8/15/2013 12:58:06 PM, ararmer1919 wrote:
At 8/15/2013 12:50:35 PM, lewis20 wrote:
At 8/15/2013 12:48:31 PM, ararmer1919 wrote:
At 8/15/2013 12:44:29 PM, lewis20 wrote:
At 8/15/2013 12:29:19 PM, ararmer1919 wrote:
His apology means nothing and his punishment will be far less then he deserves. And he was defeated from the moment he decided to betray his nation.

As anyone who betrays their nation should be defeated and punished severely?

Yes.

Right, so German soldiers and scientists who deserted and fled during WWII deserved the same fate?

And here you go comparing the United States to Nazi Germany? Lol that's pretty funny. Got anything better? And to answer your ridicules question while morally no they weren't but by the law of their nation they certainly were.

I'm not comparing the two countries, just taking your statement to it's logical conclusion. Do you believe state laws should trump moral laws?

Very well. As I already stated by the state laws they certainly are traitors. As for morally, it completely depends on the circumstances. In the case of Geramany. If your a soldier and you've seen the horrible atrocities that the Nazies were commiting then by all means you have the moral obligation to either stop it or take no part in it. But your still a traitor to the state. However this is irrelevant since you can't possibly compare the US to Nazi Germany. A better question would have been did any good that Manning accomplish or try to accomplish out weigh the harm that he caused? The answer is no it did not. This is one of those circumstances I was talking about. Did the actions of those German soldiers and scientists cause more harm then good to thier nation as a whole? Most likely not. Did Manning???
ararmer1919
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8/15/2013 1:10:15 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 8/15/2013 1:02:39 PM, Cermank wrote:
Yes... go on. Ignore a legit question. That'll strengthen your argument.

I obviously did answer his question thank you very much.
lewis20
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8/15/2013 1:15:18 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 8/15/2013 1:08:41 PM, ararmer1919 wrote:
Very well. As I already stated by the state laws they certainly are traitors. As for morally, it completely depends on the circumstances. In the case of Geramany. If your a soldier and you've seen the horrible atrocities that the Nazies were commiting then by all means you have the moral obligation to either stop it or take no part in it. But your still a traitor to the state. However this is irrelevant since you can't possibly compare the US to Nazi Germany. A better question would have been did any good that Manning accomplish or try to accomplish out weigh the harm that he caused? The answer is no it did not. This is one of those circumstances I was talking about. Did the actions of those German soldiers and scientists cause more harm then good to thier nation as a whole? Most likely not. Did Manning???

Exactly what harm did Manning cause? Specifically?
He did a lot of good, waking up many people to exactly what the war looked like.
The US government rarely ever takes the moral high ground on an issue.
"If you are a racist I will attack you with the north"- Abraham Lincoln

"Do not wear clothing woven of two kinds of material" - Leviticus 19 19

"War is a racket" - Smedley Butler
ararmer1919
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8/15/2013 1:20:39 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 8/15/2013 12:48:29 PM, Cermank wrote:
At 8/15/2013 12:29:19 PM, ararmer1919 wrote:
At 8/15/2013 10:00:02 AM, Cermank wrote:
http://www.bbc.co.uk...

-_-

Although this is largely for the show to reduce his punishment, his apology is kind of heartbreaking.

"In his brief statement on Wednesday, Pte Manning said he had come to realise he should have worked "more aggressively inside the system" to make the changes he sought.

"When I made these decisions I believed I was going to help people, not hurt people," he said.

"Unfortunately, I can't go back and change things."

Pte Manning also said he understood he must "pay a price" for his actions, but hoped one day to go to university and have a meaningful relationship with his sister and other family members."

Like he doesn't even care anymore, about his principles. Defeated.

His apology means nothing and his punishment will be far less then he deserves. And he was defeated from the moment he decided to betray his nation.

Soooo... if you are from Pakistan, would you believe it is your duty not to reveal that the aid being given by US is being used to carry out attacks in India by funding the Taliban? Would that be- the moral thing to do, just because you are a Pakistani?

Does your nationality shape your morals? Or rather, if your nation engages in immoral acts, should you, by default, be compliant in those acts?

The problem here is that he didn't just reveal a few cables that made the US look bad. He massively dumbed 700,000 documents and cables into the entire worlds laps without any concern of the after effects or knowledge of what was on all of those data cables. Many of these directly harmed the US. Now did manning betray us with malicious intent to harm the US? No. But he still did and and what ever small amount of good he was trying to accomplish is trumped by the harm he caused. Basically his intentions were good but sadly he's a complete idiot and he went about his actions in an illegal and harmful way even though there were legitimate means for him to get his message out. And I'm sorry but stupidity and ignorance is not a very good defense for treason. The problem with your side is that you look at this subject completely with emotion rather then using the actual facts and logic. If to did you would see that while he isn't an evil traitor, he still is one and thus deserves his rightful punishment.
ararmer1919
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8/15/2013 1:28:08 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 8/15/2013 1:15:18 PM, lewis20 wrote:
At 8/15/2013 1:08:41 PM, ararmer1919 wrote:
Very well. As I already stated by the state laws they certainly are traitors. As for morally, it completely depends on the circumstances. In the case of Geramany. If your a soldier and you've seen the horrible atrocities that the Nazies were commiting then by all means you have the moral obligation to either stop it or take no part in it. But your still a traitor to the state. However this is irrelevant since you can't possibly compare the US to Nazi Germany. A better question would have been did any good that Manning accomplish or try to accomplish out weigh the harm that he caused? The answer is no it did not. This is one of those circumstances I was talking about. Did the actions of those German soldiers and scientists cause more harm then good to thier nation as a whole? Most likely not. Did Manning???

Exactly what harm did Manning cause? Specifically?
He did a lot of good, waking up many people to exactly what the war looked like.
The US government rarely ever takes the moral high ground on an issue.

So see, here's what I'm taking about. Your sitting here trying to defend him when you don't even know what it is he released??? I'm sorry but I'm
Not going to play this game again. Go look it up yourself. And as for the "lot of good" bit. I have NEVER understood this. First off everything he released that you might be able to use as "good" is questionable and second how stupid are you people? You really honestly are trying to say that before Bradley manning you didn't know that bad things happen in war and that people fing die? Seriously? And what was accomplished by this? What good did it cause? The wars continue do they not? Except Iraq but that was time to end anyway. And even if he did accomplish some "good" the bad he caused out weighs it. And that's what iv been trying to say this whole time but your side is to emotional and think skulls to see it. Sure. Maybe he did release some good stuff. Doesn't matter. Bad weighs more then good on the scales.
lewis20
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8/15/2013 1:28:10 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
Give us a little pros and cons list here if his leaks caused more harm than good.
What specifically did Manning leak that hurt the US? and by US I mean the people, not the government.
"If you are a racist I will attack you with the north"- Abraham Lincoln

"Do not wear clothing woven of two kinds of material" - Leviticus 19 19

"War is a racket" - Smedley Butler
lewis20
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8/15/2013 1:30:35 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
Info he released, no reason this should be kept secret from the American people.
Now give me the info hurt us.

" The first revelation came in 2010, from a video showing a US helicopter crew laughing as they launched an air strike killing a dozen people in Baghdad in July 2007, including a photographer and driver working for the Reuters news agency. The footage was recorded on one of two Apache helicopters which were hunting for suspected insurgents. They encounter a group of men on the ground, who do not immediately appear armed, and there is no sign of gunshots. But one helicopter crew opens fire, with shouts of "Hahaha. I hit 'em," and "Oh yeah, look at those dead bastards". As the wounded are helped, one of the helicopters opens fire again, with armour-piercing shells.

" The next tranche of revelations came in July 2010, from documents dating from 2004 to 2009 about the Afghan war. One set raised concerns in the US by suggesting alleged support for the Taliban from Pakistan, particularly that the country's spy agency, the Inter-Services Intelligence (ISI), had been collaborating with the Taliban.

" The Afghanistan files also included details of an incident from 2007 in which US marines escaping an attack outside the city of Jalalabad fired their guns indiscriminately, killing 19 unarmed civilians and wounding 50 more. While the aftermath of the attack was plain to military authorities, the files suggested, the incident was referred to in an official report only as this: "The patrol returned to JAF [Jalalabad air field]."

" In October 2010 came a series of revelations about events in Iraq. Chief among these was that US authorities failed to investigate hundreds of reports of abuse, torture, rape and even murder by Iraqi police and soldiers. The reports of abuse, often supported by medical evidence, describe prisoners shackled, blindfolded and hung by wrists or ankles, and subjected to whipping, punching, kicking or electric shocks.

" Another Iraq-related revelation was that the US collated details of more than 100,000 people killed in Iraq following the invasion of the country, including more than 15,000 deaths that were previously unrecorded. The tally goes against previous protestations by the UK and US that there were any official statistics on the death toll connected to the war.

" The largest and most explosive cache of files was revealed in November 2010 " more than 250,000 classified cables from US embassies, carrying confidential and often blunt diplomatic assessments of US allies and foes. One of the most dramatic of these showed that King Abdullah of Saudi Arabia has repeatedly urged the US to attack Iran to destroy its nuclear programme. The Saudi monarch was recorded as having "frequently exhorted the US to attack Iran to put an end to its nuclear weapons programme," one cable stated.

" The embassy cables also said that the US is running a secret intelligence campaign targeted at the leadership of the United Nations, including the secretary general, Ban Ki-moon, and representatives from China, Russia, France and the UK. The classified directive, from 2009, demanded details about the communications systems used by top UN officials, including passwords and personal encryption keys used in official communications.

" Other cables painted a hugely unflattering US view of Russia under the leadership of Vladimir Putin, calling it a "virtual mafia state" in which officials, oligarchs and organised crime are bound together by endemic corruption and personal enrichment.

" The cables contained an equally candid view of rampant government corruption in Afghanistan, including details of an incident in October 2009 when the then vice-president, Ahmad Zia Massoud, was stopped and questioned in Dubai carrying $52m in cash.

" On a more intimate note, but of particular interest in Britain, was a cable from Tatiana Gfoeller, Washington's ambassador to Kyrgyzstan, who recounted an "astonishingly candid" and at times rude performance by Prince Andrew at a brunch with overseas business people in which he railed against British anticorruption investigators, journalists and the French.

" The final tranche of revelations, in April 2011, came from 759 "detainee assessment" dossiers about those held at the Guant"namo Bay prison, written between 2002 and 2009. They spell out the extent of involvement US authorities believe each detainee has had with al-Qaida, the Taliban or other terror groups. The files showed that some prisoners had long ago been cleared for release but remained detained.
"If you are a racist I will attack you with the north"- Abraham Lincoln

"Do not wear clothing woven of two kinds of material" - Leviticus 19 19

"War is a racket" - Smedley Butler
AlbinoBunny
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8/15/2013 1:40:54 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 8/15/2013 12:58:06 PM, ararmer1919 wrote:
At 8/15/2013 12:50:35 PM, lewis20 wrote:
At 8/15/2013 12:48:31 PM, ararmer1919 wrote:
At 8/15/2013 12:44:29 PM, lewis20 wrote:
At 8/15/2013 12:29:19 PM, ararmer1919 wrote:
His apology means nothing and his punishment will be far less then he deserves. And he was defeated from the moment he decided to betray his nation.

As anyone who betrays their nation should be defeated and punished severely?

Yes.

Right, so German soldiers and scientists who deserted and fled during WWII deserved the same fate?

And here you go comparing the United States to Nazi Germany? Lol that's pretty funny. Got anything better? And to answer your ridicules question while morally no they weren't but by the law of their nation they certainly were.

"As anyone who betrays their nation should be defeated and punished severely?"... "Yes."

So you alter your reply, somewhat?
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Cermank
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8/15/2013 1:43:31 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 8/15/2013 1:20:39 PM, ararmer1919 wrote:
At 8/15/2013 12:48:29 PM, Cermank wrote:
At 8/15/2013 12:29:19 PM, ararmer1919 wrote:
At 8/15/2013 10:00:02 AM, Cermank wrote:
http://www.bbc.co.uk...

-_-

Although this is largely for the show to reduce his punishment, his apology is kind of heartbreaking.

"In his brief statement on Wednesday, Pte Manning said he had come to realise he should have worked "more aggressively inside the system" to make the changes he sought.

"When I made these decisions I believed I was going to help people, not hurt people," he said.

"Unfortunately, I can't go back and change things."

Pte Manning also said he understood he must "pay a price" for his actions, but hoped one day to go to university and have a meaningful relationship with his sister and other family members."

Like he doesn't even care anymore, about his principles. Defeated.

His apology means nothing and his punishment will be far less then he deserves. And he was defeated from the moment he decided to betray his nation.

Soooo... if you are from Pakistan, would you believe it is your duty not to reveal that the aid being given by US is being used to carry out attacks in India by funding the Taliban? Would that be- the moral thing to do, just because you are a Pakistani?

Does your nationality shape your morals? Or rather, if your nation engages in immoral acts, should you, by default, be compliant in those acts?

The problem here is that he didn't just reveal a few cables that made the US look bad. He massively dumbed 700,000 documents and cables into the entire worlds laps without any concern of the after effects or knowledge of what was on all of those data cables.

Here's what he leacked. A video of Baghdad airstrike that killed civilians. A video of the 2009 Garani airstrike in Afghanistan. A classified army document acknowledging wikileaks as a security threat. 2,60,000 cable leaks that exposed criminal back dealings by political higher ups.

Many of these directly harmed the US.

US government*

Now did manning betray us with malicious intent to harm the US? No. But he still did and and what ever small amount of good he was trying to accomplish is trumped by the harm he caused.

He was bringing the truth to light. Who exactly was he harming, except the government? The civilians killed in baghdad would probably want the video come to light.

Basically his intentions were good but sadly he's a complete idiot and he went about his actions in an illegal and harmful way even though there were legitimate means for him to get his message out. And I'm sorry but stupidity and ignorance is not a very good defense for treason. The problem with your side is that you look at this subject completely with emotion rather then using the actual facts and logic. If to did you would see that while he isn't an evil traitor, he still is one and thus deserves his rightful punishment.

Who was harmed? Simple question.
Lordknukle
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8/15/2013 10:04:52 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 8/15/2013 12:29:19 PM, ararmer1919 wrote:
At 8/15/2013 10:00:02 AM, Cermank wrote:
http://www.bbc.co.uk...

-_-

Although this is largely for the show to reduce his punishment, his apology is kind of heartbreaking.

"In his brief statement on Wednesday, Pte Manning said he had come to realise he should have worked "more aggressively inside the system" to make the changes he sought.

"When I made these decisions I believed I was going to help people, not hurt people," he said.

"Unfortunately, I can't go back and change things."

Pte Manning also said he understood he must "pay a price" for his actions, but hoped one day to go to university and have a meaningful relationship with his sister and other family members."

Like he doesn't even care anymore, about his principles. Defeated.

His apology means nothing and his punishment will be far less then he deserves. And he was defeated from the moment he decided to betray his nation.

Go die in a hole of a slow bacterial infection.
"Easy is the descent to Avernus, for the door to the Underworld lies upon both day and night. But to retrace your steps and return to the breezes above- that's the task, that's the toil."
Ore_Ele
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8/15/2013 10:50:35 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 8/15/2013 10:00:02 AM, Cermank wrote:
http://www.bbc.co.uk...

-_-

Although this is largely for the show to reduce his punishment, his apology is kind of heartbreaking.

"In his brief statement on Wednesday, Pte Manning said he had come to realise he should have worked "more aggressively inside the system" to make the changes he sought.

"When I made these decisions I believed I was going to help people, not hurt people," he said.

"Unfortunately, I can't go back and change things."

Pte Manning also said he understood he must "pay a price" for his actions, but hoped one day to go to university and have a meaningful relationship with his sister and other family members."

Like he doesn't even care anymore, about his principles. Defeated.

Not sure if he actually learned or is just pandering.
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SitaraPorDios
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8/17/2013 10:38:35 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 8/15/2013 12:58:06 PM, ararmer1919 wrote:
At 8/15/2013 12:50:35 PM, lewis20 wrote:
At 8/15/2013 12:48:31 PM, ararmer1919 wrote:
At 8/15/2013 12:44:29 PM, lewis20 wrote:
At 8/15/2013 12:29:19 PM, ararmer1919 wrote:
His apology means nothing and his punishment will be far less then he deserves. And he was defeated from the moment he decided to betray his nation.

As anyone who betrays their nation should be defeated and punished severely?

Yes.

Right, so German soldiers and scientists who deserted and fled during WWII deserved the same fate?

And here you go comparing the United States to Nazi Germany? Lol that's pretty funny. Got anything better? And to answer your ridicules question while morally no they weren't but by the law of their nation they certainly were.
America is becoming like Nazi Germany. Look nwhat we are doing to the Muslims over oil, torture, and Bush Jr.'s daddy issues.
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wrichcirw
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8/18/2013 11:58:31 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 8/15/2013 10:00:02 AM, Cermank wrote:
http://www.bbc.co.uk...

-_-

Although this is largely for the show to reduce his punishment, his apology is kind of heartbreaking.

"In his brief statement on Wednesday, Pte Manning said he had come to realise he should have worked "more aggressively inside the system" to make the changes he sought.

"When I made these decisions I believed I was going to help people, not hurt people," he said.

"Unfortunately, I can't go back and change things."

Pte Manning also said he understood he must "pay a price" for his actions, but hoped one day to go to university and have a meaningful relationship with his sister and other family members."

Like he doesn't even care anymore, about his principles. Defeated.

I respectfully but wholly disagree with this line of thinking.

1) Manning DID NOT KNOW what he was disclosing. So, to say that he had "principles" is IMHO totally off.

2) He already had some rather severe disciplinary and behavioral issues that were documented before his leak.

3) He pled guilty to several of the lesser charges at the beginning of the trial, because he had already realized that his methodology (or rather lack of one) was very irresponsible.
At 8/9/2013 9:41:24 AM, wrichcirw wrote:
If you are civil with me, I will be civil to you. If you decide to bring unreasonable animosity to bear in a reasonable discussion, then what would you expect other than to get flustered?
wrichcirw
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8/18/2013 1:19:38 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 8/15/2013 12:58:06 PM, ararmer1919 wrote:
At 8/15/2013 12:50:35 PM, lewis20 wrote:
At 8/15/2013 12:48:31 PM, ararmer1919 wrote:
At 8/15/2013 12:44:29 PM, lewis20 wrote:
At 8/15/2013 12:29:19 PM, ararmer1919 wrote:
His apology means nothing and his punishment will be far less then he deserves. And he was defeated from the moment he decided to betray his nation.

As anyone who betrays their nation should be defeated and punished severely?

Yes.

Right, so German soldiers and scientists who deserted and fled during WWII deserved the same fate?

And here you go comparing the United States to Nazi Germany? Lol that's pretty funny. Got anything better? And to answer your ridicules question while morally no they weren't but by the law of their nation they certainly were.

He makes a good point though ararmer. I mean, at what point does mutinous action become justifiable? You make it seem as though mutiny is never justifiable, even if the captain is of the most immoral character imaginable.

I mean, I can understand if you say that the mutineers need to be fully aware of the legal consequences of what they're doing (i.e. treason) but do you truly think that any and all mutinous conduct is irredeemable? How would you defend the Boston Tea Party and the Revolutionary War then?
At 8/9/2013 9:41:24 AM, wrichcirw wrote:
If you are civil with me, I will be civil to you. If you decide to bring unreasonable animosity to bear in a reasonable discussion, then what would you expect other than to get flustered?
000ike
Posts: 11,196
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8/18/2013 1:24:11 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
What I don't understand is how what he did could have warranted life in prison. How many people actually agree that leaking classified information is a crime of that severity? And if the majority of Americans don't agree that it is, what right does the government have to treat it that way?
"A stupid despot may constrain his slaves with iron chains; but a true politician binds them even more strongly with the chain of their own ideas" - Michel Foucault
wrichcirw
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8/18/2013 1:24:21 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 8/15/2013 1:28:08 PM, ararmer1919 wrote:
At 8/15/2013 1:15:18 PM, lewis20 wrote:
At 8/15/2013 1:08:41 PM, ararmer1919 wrote:
Very well. As I already stated by the state laws they certainly are traitors. As for morally, it completely depends on the circumstances. In the case of Geramany. If your a soldier and you've seen the horrible atrocities that the Nazies were commiting then by all means you have the moral obligation to either stop it or take no part in it. But your still a traitor to the state. However this is irrelevant since you can't possibly compare the US to Nazi Germany. A better question would have been did any good that Manning accomplish or try to accomplish out weigh the harm that he caused? The answer is no it did not. This is one of those circumstances I was talking about. Did the actions of those German soldiers and scientists cause more harm then good to thier nation as a whole? Most likely not. Did Manning???

Exactly what harm did Manning cause? Specifically?
He did a lot of good, waking up many people to exactly what the war looked like.
The US government rarely ever takes the moral high ground on an issue.

So see, here's what I'm taking about. Your sitting here trying to defend him when you don't even know what it is he released??? I'm sorry but I'm
Not going to play this game again. Go look it up yourself. And as for the "lot of good" bit. I have NEVER understood this. First off everything he released that you might be able to use as "good" is questionable and second how stupid are you people? You really honestly are trying to say that before Bradley manning you didn't know that bad things happen in war and that people fing die? Seriously? And what was accomplished by this? What good did it cause? The wars continue do they not? Except Iraq but that was time to end anyway. And even if he did accomplish some "good" the bad he caused out weighs it. And that's what iv been trying to say this whole time but your side is to emotional and think skulls to see it. Sure. Maybe he did release some good stuff. Doesn't matter. Bad weighs more then good on the scales.

I fully agree with ararmer here. My name is wrichcirw, and I approve this message. =)
At 8/9/2013 9:41:24 AM, wrichcirw wrote:
If you are civil with me, I will be civil to you. If you decide to bring unreasonable animosity to bear in a reasonable discussion, then what would you expect other than to get flustered?
wrichcirw
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8/18/2013 1:25:42 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 8/18/2013 1:24:11 PM, 000ike wrote:
What I don't understand is how what he did could have warranted life in prison. How many people actually agree that leaking classified information is a crime of that severity? And if the majority of Americans don't agree that it is, what right does the government have to treat it that way?

I do. I've had that level of security clearance. It's a serious matter. One hard disk could be of more strategic value to the US than a full division of soldiers.
At 8/9/2013 9:41:24 AM, wrichcirw wrote:
If you are civil with me, I will be civil to you. If you decide to bring unreasonable animosity to bear in a reasonable discussion, then what would you expect other than to get flustered?
wrichcirw
Posts: 11,196
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8/18/2013 1:27:31 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
Think about it this way:

Pearl Harbor worked for the Japanese because we didn't see it coming. Had we been able to intercept ONE KEY CABLE that would have tipped us off to the impending attack and given us time to prepare for it, we could have turned Pearl Harbor into a massacre for the Japanese. Instead, 4,000 sailors died and several ships were lost in port.

Information is power. Intelligence is serious business.
At 8/9/2013 9:41:24 AM, wrichcirw wrote:
If you are civil with me, I will be civil to you. If you decide to bring unreasonable animosity to bear in a reasonable discussion, then what would you expect other than to get flustered?
000ike
Posts: 11,196
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8/18/2013 1:42:10 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 8/18/2013 1:25:42 PM, wrichcirw wrote:
At 8/18/2013 1:24:11 PM, 000ike wrote:
What I don't understand is how what he did could have warranted life in prison. How many people actually agree that leaking classified information is a crime of that severity? And if the majority of Americans don't agree that it is, what right does the government have to treat it that way?

I do. I've had that level of security clearance. It's a serious matter. One hard disk could be of more strategic value to the US than a full division of soldiers.

How does strategic value justify imprisoning someone for his entire life? That's a sentence on par with the consequences of murder. It's not even a rehabilitative or deterrent consequence, it's just pure, wild retribution.

Moreover, what does the constitution even mean if the government can withhold information from the governed? Secrecy begets despotism, because only in ignorance can the public not object.
"A stupid despot may constrain his slaves with iron chains; but a true politician binds them even more strongly with the chain of their own ideas" - Michel Foucault
ararmer1919
Posts: 362
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8/18/2013 1:43:07 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
Ok I'm back. So for all those people asking why what he did was damaging or who he harmed and all this other crap please refer to this debate I had some months ago.

http://www.debate.org...

It's all there and I don't feel like doing it again.