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Bradley Manning, Meet Chelsea Manning

wrichcirw
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8/22/2013 11:19:15 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
http://www.cnn.com...

Ok, so I suspect this is a hot-button issue for a lot of folks here on both sides of the spectrum.

I consider this a "problem" because Manning himself considered it a "problem":

In an e-mail to his sergeant titled, "My Problem," Manning included the picture of himself in the wig.

"It's not going away, it's haunting me more and more as I get older," Manning wrote in the e-mail. "Now, the consequences of it are dire, at a time when it's causing me great pain in itself. As a result, I'm not sure what to do about it."


This all happened well before he leaked his documents, and he was still struggling with this WHILE leaking the documents:

"Speaking in the sentencing phase of his court martial last week, Manning said that at the time he decided to leak the documents, he was "dealing with a lot of issues" -- a reference to his gender identity crisis."

---

The military was still operating under "don't ask, don't tell" when Manning leaked, so his telling superiors probably should have been grounds for a general discharge (not dishonorable).

---

This should be interesting. Your thoughts on this?
At 8/9/2013 9:41:24 AM, wrichcirw wrote:
If you are civil with me, I will be civil to you. If you decide to bring unreasonable animosity to bear in a reasonable discussion, then what would you expect other than to get flustered?
vbaculum
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8/22/2013 12:11:42 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
Am I the only one who thinks its strange that someone would want to come out of the closet, and with such gusto, the day following their sentencing to 35 years in prison?
"If you claim to value nonviolence and you consume animal products, you need to rethink your position on nonviolence." - Gary Francione

THE WORLD IS VEGAN! If you want it
wrichcirw
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8/22/2013 12:22:49 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 8/22/2013 12:11:42 PM, vbaculum wrote:
Am I the only one who thinks its strange that someone would want to come out of the closet, and with such gusto, the day following their sentencing to 35 years in prison?

Only if you think it's strange that links like wikipedia would immediately update their profile of the person to reflect his/her wishes:
http://en.wikipedia.org...

Really though, I'm of the opinion that this gender identity issue is what really led him to leak documents as a cry for help of some sort, and that if that is true, it accounts not only for this recent behavior, but IMHO would also potentially justify a longer prison sentence, since his leaks would have been less about being a whistle-blower and more about being a psychologically disturbed individual.
At 8/9/2013 9:41:24 AM, wrichcirw wrote:
If you are civil with me, I will be civil to you. If you decide to bring unreasonable animosity to bear in a reasonable discussion, then what would you expect other than to get flustered?
vbaculum
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8/22/2013 12:37:30 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 8/22/2013 12:22:49 PM, wrichcirw wrote:
At 8/22/2013 12:11:42 PM, vbaculum wrote:
Am I the only one who thinks its strange that someone would want to come out of the closet, and with such gusto, the day following their sentencing to 35 years in prison?

Only if you think it's strange that links like wikipedia would immediately update their profile of the person to reflect his/her wishes:
http://en.wikipedia.org...

I don't see the connection.

I've read the news reports, and I know he has come out as transgender. Frankly, the news today has gotten me thinking conspiratorially. I also thought his apology seemed coerced. I won't say anymore. I just wanted to say that the whole thing sounds weird and contrieved to me.


Really though, I'm of the opinion that this gender identity issue is what really led him to leak documents as a cry for help of some sort, and that if that is true, it accounts not only for this recent behavior, but IMHO would also potentially justify a longer prison sentence, since his leaks would have been less about being a whistle-blower and more about being a psychologically disturbed individual.
"If you claim to value nonviolence and you consume animal products, you need to rethink your position on nonviolence." - Gary Francione

THE WORLD IS VEGAN! If you want it
wrichcirw
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8/22/2013 12:40:38 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 8/22/2013 12:37:30 PM, vbaculum wrote:
At 8/22/2013 12:22:49 PM, wrichcirw wrote:
At 8/22/2013 12:11:42 PM, vbaculum wrote:
Am I the only one who thinks its strange that someone would want to come out of the closet, and with such gusto, the day following their sentencing to 35 years in prison?

Only if you think it's strange that links like wikipedia would immediately update their profile of the person to reflect his/her wishes:
http://en.wikipedia.org...

I don't see the connection.

Basically I don't consider his actions to be that strange, but what I do consider to be strange is the public's preoccupation on this issue, such that links like wikileaks are lightning-quick about changing this aspect of an individual.

I've read the news reports, and I know he has come out as transgender. Frankly, the news today has gotten me thinking conspiratorially. I also thought his apology seemed coerced. I won't say anymore. I just wanted to say that the whole thing sounds weird and contrieved to me.

I don't understand why you think this way. This was all documented in his disciplinary record with the military years ago, and well before he even began leaking documents.

Really though, I'm of the opinion that this gender identity issue is what really led him to leak documents as a cry for help of some sort, and that if that is true, it accounts not only for this recent behavior, but IMHO would also potentially justify a longer prison sentence, since his leaks would have been less about being a whistle-blower and more about being a psychologically disturbed individual.
At 8/9/2013 9:41:24 AM, wrichcirw wrote:
If you are civil with me, I will be civil to you. If you decide to bring unreasonable animosity to bear in a reasonable discussion, then what would you expect other than to get flustered?
OMGJustinBieber
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8/22/2013 2:53:56 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 8/22/2013 11:19:15 AM, wrichcirw wrote:
http://www.cnn.com...

Ok, so I suspect this is a hot-button issue for a lot of folks here on both sides of the spectrum.

I consider this a "problem" because Manning himself considered it a "problem":

In an e-mail to his sergeant titled, "My Problem," Manning included the picture of himself in the wig.

"It's not going away, it's haunting me more and more as I get older," Manning wrote in the e-mail. "Now, the consequences of it are dire, at a time when it's causing me great pain in itself. As a result, I'm not sure what to do about it."


This all happened well before he leaked his documents, and he was still struggling with this WHILE leaking the documents:

"Speaking in the sentencing phase of his court martial last week, Manning said that at the time he decided to leak the documents, he was "dealing with a lot of issues" -- a reference to his gender identity crisis."

---

The military was still operating under "don't ask, don't tell" when Manning leaked, so his telling superiors probably should have been grounds for a general discharge (not dishonorable).

---

This should be interesting. Your thoughts on this?

It doesn't really become a problem until people start demanding that the taxpayer cover surgery. I don't know, the guy is facing 35 years in prison (yeah, maybe he'll be out in 7, who knows?) but his life is pretty much fcuked. Just faced with that prospect I can see him pulling a Mr. Garrison and going from male to female to lesbian, and then maybe back to gay male. He's gonna have a lot of free time.
Wallstreetatheist
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8/22/2013 11:09:41 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
Thought this was an Onion article when I first saw it online.

"Bradley Manning plans to serve WikiLeaks sentence as a woman"
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Ore_Ele
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8/22/2013 11:18:32 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
I'm not sure what military prisions are like, but if this was a federal prison, he just put a big target on his back side (though a little lower than his back). He'll might be feeling like a woman in no time without the hormone therapy.
"Wanting Red Rhino Pill to have gender"
Wallstreetatheist
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8/22/2013 11:20:55 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 8/22/2013 11:18:32 PM, Ore_Ele wrote:
I'm not sure what military prisions are like, but if this was a federal prison, he just put a big target on his back side (though a little lower than his back). He'll might be feeling like a woman in no time without the hormone therapy.

Eh?
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FREEDO
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8/23/2013 12:13:34 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 8/22/2013 12:11:42 PM, vbaculum wrote:
Am I the only one who thinks its strange that someone would want to come out of the closet, and with such gusto, the day following their sentencing to 35 years in prison?

I think it makes perfect sense. He's been wanting to come out with it, but didn't want it to affect the ruling, which it very may well have. I think the public outcry concerning the government's treatment of him played a very active role in how much of a break he's caught. His coming-out has no doubt cost him to lose a lot of people. Americans are even worse with transphobia than they are with regular homophobia. The vast majority of hate crimes made against gays are specifically made against transsexuals.

Lol, at the same moment I was typing this, I heard this come on the news in the other room and my mom's reply was "WHAT!"
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wrichcirw
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8/23/2013 12:20:08 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 8/22/2013 11:18:32 PM, Ore_Ele wrote:
I'm not sure what military prisions are like, but if this was a federal prison, he just put a big target on his back side (though a little lower than his back). He'll might be feeling like a woman in no time without the hormone therapy.

Maybe he/she/it's looking forward to prison...:o
At 8/9/2013 9:41:24 AM, wrichcirw wrote:
If you are civil with me, I will be civil to you. If you decide to bring unreasonable animosity to bear in a reasonable discussion, then what would you expect other than to get flustered?
FREEDO
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8/23/2013 12:28:08 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 8/23/2013 12:20:08 AM, wrichcirw wrote:
Maybe he/she/it's looking forward to prison...:o

She.
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wrichcirw
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8/23/2013 12:28:45 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 8/23/2013 12:28:08 AM, FREEDO wrote:
At 8/23/2013 12:20:08 AM, wrichcirw wrote:
Maybe he/she/it's looking forward to prison...:o

She.

Is that how it works? (not being facetious)
At 8/9/2013 9:41:24 AM, wrichcirw wrote:
If you are civil with me, I will be civil to you. If you decide to bring unreasonable animosity to bear in a reasonable discussion, then what would you expect other than to get flustered?
FREEDO
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8/23/2013 12:33:56 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 8/23/2013 12:28:45 AM, wrichcirw wrote:
Is that how it works? (not being facetious)

For practical purposes, it still makes sense to say "male", until an actual sex change is made.

But gender identity transcends sex. Individuals are the only ones who have a say in their own identity. "She" is a part of this identity and you are nothing but what you say you are, in this regard.
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wrichcirw
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8/23/2013 12:39:19 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 8/23/2013 12:33:56 AM, FREEDO wrote:
At 8/23/2013 12:28:45 AM, wrichcirw wrote:
Is that how it works? (not being facetious)

For practical purposes, it still makes sense to say "male", until an actual sex change is made.

But gender identity transcends sex. Individuals are the only ones who have a say in their own identity. "She" is a part of this identity and you are nothing but what you say you are, in this regard.

Confusing. :o
At 8/9/2013 9:41:24 AM, wrichcirw wrote:
If you are civil with me, I will be civil to you. If you decide to bring unreasonable animosity to bear in a reasonable discussion, then what would you expect other than to get flustered?
FREEDO
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8/23/2013 12:45:56 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 8/23/2013 12:39:19 AM, wrichcirw wrote:
Confusing. :o

A lil bit.

I think a separation between identity and anatomical description is necessary. Sex is a matter of physical fact and is simple to define. Gender is a complex and deeply personal issue that invokes many grey areas, revolving around, not only sex, but sexual orientation and the personality traits we (often wronglyfully) associate with it.
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Ore_Ele
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8/23/2013 8:10:44 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 8/23/2013 12:33:56 AM, FREEDO wrote:
At 8/23/2013 12:28:45 AM, wrichcirw wrote:
Is that how it works? (not being facetious)

For practical purposes, it still makes sense to say "male", until an actual sex change is made.

But gender identity transcends sex. Individuals are the only ones who have a say in their own identity. "She" is a part of this identity and you are nothing but what you say you are, in this regard.

Then I identify myself as a god and you should address me as such.
"Wanting Red Rhino Pill to have gender"
wrichcirw
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8/23/2013 9:04:09 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 8/23/2013 8:10:44 AM, Ore_Ele wrote:
At 8/23/2013 12:33:56 AM, FREEDO wrote:
At 8/23/2013 12:28:45 AM, wrichcirw wrote:
Is that how it works? (not being facetious)

For practical purposes, it still makes sense to say "male", until an actual sex change is made.

But gender identity transcends sex. Individuals are the only ones who have a say in their own identity. "She" is a part of this identity and you are nothing but what you say you are, in this regard.

Then I identify myself as a god and you should address me as such.

Are you a he, she, or it?

=)
At 8/9/2013 9:41:24 AM, wrichcirw wrote:
If you are civil with me, I will be civil to you. If you decide to bring unreasonable animosity to bear in a reasonable discussion, then what would you expect other than to get flustered?
orangemayhem
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8/23/2013 9:54:44 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 8/22/2013 12:22:49 PM, wrichcirw wrote:
Really though, I'm of the opinion that this gender identity issue is what really led him to leak documents as a cry for help of some sort, and that if that is true, it accounts not only for this recent behavior, but IMHO would also potentially justify a longer prison sentence, since his leaks would have been less about being a whistle-blower and more about being a psychologically disturbed individual.

I suppose the big issue here is whether or not one sees gender identity distortion as being a mental illness of sorts, and this is something the western world is still grappling with IMHO. If we were to see it as an 'illness', or something which can be used as an excuse, wouldn't that warrant a retrial where he can cite it as one would cite insanity as a defence?

But equally if we decide it's not an 'illness' and can't be cited as a defence, we have to take it out of the defence equation entirely.

It's a difficult question. I think I favour the latter argument and say we have to ignore it for sentencing purposes, but I'm really on the line here.
I'm back (ish).
wrichcirw
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8/23/2013 10:00:16 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 8/23/2013 9:54:44 AM, orangemayhem wrote:
At 8/22/2013 12:22:49 PM, wrichcirw wrote:
Really though, I'm of the opinion that this gender identity issue is what really led him to leak documents as a cry for help of some sort, and that if that is true, it accounts not only for this recent behavior, but IMHO would also potentially justify a longer prison sentence, since his leaks would have been less about being a whistle-blower and more about being a psychologically disturbed individual.

I suppose the big issue here is whether or not one sees gender identity distortion as being a mental illness of sorts, and this is something the western world is still grappling with IMHO. If we were to see it as an 'illness', or something which can be used as an excuse, wouldn't that warrant a retrial where he can cite it as one would cite insanity as a defence?

I don't see the gender identity distortion itself as being a mental illness, but I certainly see the immense amount of frustration stemming from Manning's inability to express him/herself properly due to military restrictions as leading to pronounced mental anguish.

Similarly, the Ft. Hood shooter, Major Hasan, had an immense amount of frustration stemming from his perception of religious persecution that caused him to lash out.

The idea is that if these psychological disturbances (not necessarily illnesses) are the primary causes, then neither of them can use a "I was a whistleblower, I was a hero" defense to appeal for leniency, IMHO (not that Hasan is doing this at all, but anyway).

But equally if we decide it's not an 'illness' and can't be cited as a defence, we have to take it out of the defence equation entirely.

It's a difficult question. I think I favour the latter argument and say we have to ignore it for sentencing purposes, but I'm really on the line here.
At 8/9/2013 9:41:24 AM, wrichcirw wrote:
If you are civil with me, I will be civil to you. If you decide to bring unreasonable animosity to bear in a reasonable discussion, then what would you expect other than to get flustered?
FREEDO
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8/23/2013 4:36:33 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 8/23/2013 8:10:44 AM, Ore_Ele wrote:
Then I identify myself as a god and you should address me as such.

Works for me.
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Citrakayah
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8/23/2013 5:05:11 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 8/23/2013 8:10:44 AM, Ore_Ele wrote:
At 8/23/2013 12:33:56 AM, FREEDO wrote:
At 8/23/2013 12:28:45 AM, wrichcirw wrote:
Is that how it works? (not being facetious)

For practical purposes, it still makes sense to say "male", until an actual sex change is made.

But gender identity transcends sex. Individuals are the only ones who have a say in their own identity. "She" is a part of this identity and you are nothing but what you say you are, in this regard.

Then I identify myself as a god and you should address me as such.

It's a bit more complicated than that. In sociology, gender is considered to be socially constructed--not in the sense of socially defined, but in the sense that it doesn't exist without society--so without any external reality, there are fewer rules than identifying as something that, objectively, exists.

In my opinion, though, a better question would be to ask why you identify as a god, and then analyze your reasoning.

(General Disclaimer: I am not an expert, this is just my impression.)
Lordknukle
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8/23/2013 5:53:46 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 8/23/2013 12:45:56 AM, FREEDO wrote:
At 8/23/2013 12:39:19 AM, wrichcirw wrote:
Confusing. :o

A lil bit.

I think a separation between identity and anatomical description is necessary. Sex is a matter of physical fact and is simple to define. Gender is a complex and deeply personal issue that invokes many grey areas, revolving around, not only sex, but sexual orientation and the personality traits we (often wronglyfully) associate with it.

This. Biological gender is a black or white issue (grey in the case of hemaphrodites). Psychological gender exists on a continuum, with the individual defining where they are on that scale. I seriously doubt that anybody is completely on either end of the spectrum.
"Easy is the descent to Avernus, for the door to the Underworld lies upon both day and night. But to retrace your steps and return to the breezes above- that's the task, that's the toil."
Wocambs
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8/28/2013 4:32:01 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
It is my understanding that addressing someone as they wish to be addressed is simply a matter of politeness and respect, although exceptions are made when the preferred form of address implies some kind of prerogative or when 'official' forms of address must be used.

If someone was to introduce themselves in this way: 'Hello, I'm Henry, but I prefer to be called Harry', would there be any floundering over how to address them? Similarly, if someone had their name legally changed we would of course address this person by their new name.

Ore_Ele claims to prefer to be called a god. If this was nothing more than a peculiar idiosyncrasy then I don't see any particular problem, although if Ore_Ele wished to derive some kind of authority or power from this over me then I may well refuse. If a man claimed to identify as a woman for the sole reason of attending a woman's prison instead of a man's then I would also take issue, just as you couldn't demand access to the House of Lords by preferring to be identified as 'Lord'.

Anyway, I think I have made it quite clear that transgender people should be referred to by the gender they identify with. I don't see anything confusing at all, unless one is similarly baffled by the 'Henry / Harry dilemma'. Wondering whether 'Chelsea Manning' is a he / she / it does mildly offend me, as it seems nothing but obtuse.
RoyLatham
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8/29/2013 10:49:36 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 8/28/2013 4:32:01 PM, Wocambs wrote:
It is my understanding that addressing someone as they wish to be addressed is simply a matter of politeness and respect, although exceptions are made when the preferred form of address implies some kind of prerogative or when 'official' forms of address must be used.

I agree. No problem if a person is talking directly to Manning, there is no reason not to use "Chelsea."

The problem is how to reference him/her indirectly. The New York Times style guidelines had it right: use what the person wants to be called unless they are well known by a different name, in which case use the name they are known by. Lady Gaga's real name is Stefani Germanotta, but if a journalist started calling her by her real name no one would know who they were talking about. Just switching to "Chelsea Manning" causes confusion. I suspect many people would wonder how his sister became implicated. In think using "Bradley (Chelsea) Manning" is a reasonable compromise.

Immediately changing all references to "Chelsea" is conforming to the pseudo-religious demands of political correctness. One simply must obey the god of correctness, no matter the confusion. The NY Times briefly stuck to its guidelines, but then buckled under charges of apostasy.

Start a thread on gender identity here on DDO, and a swarm of liberals will insist that gender identity is 99.9% cultural. But then Manning appears, and suddenly it is not cultural at all. I think Manning is troubled with a real problem, not a cultural delusion. He's going to spend a long time in solitary, where he will be allowed to think of himself any way he wishes.

Anyway, I think I have made it quite clear that transgender people should be referred to by the gender they identify with. I don't see anything confusing at all, unless one is similarly baffled by the 'Henry / Harry dilemma'. Wondering whether 'Chelsea Manning' is a he / she / it does mildly offend me, as it seems nothing but obtuse.

You assume that most people are closely following the case. I don't think so. Most of those who follow it don't get much further than the headlines.

When Jimmy Carter was running for president, there was an issue of using his legal name, which is James. Carter argued that using "James" would confuse voters, because he was never referenced by anything other than "Jimmy." I think he was correct. His name appeared as "Jimmy" on the ballot.
alcarter
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8/30/2013 1:02:58 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
"Bradley Manning, Meet Chelsea Manning"

More like cowardly Manning. That some of a ##### who betrayed our country. If he was this much of a wimp, he shouldn't have joined the military in the first place.

-Al Carter
-Al Carter
Wallstreetatheist
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8/30/2013 1:28:02 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 8/30/2013 1:02:58 AM, alcarter wrote:
More like cowardly Manning. That some of a ##### who betrayed our country. If he was this much of a wimp, he shouldn't have joined the military in the first place.

He actually did an extremely important thing for our country's people, not necessarily the political class that extorts you though.
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Wocambs
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8/30/2013 8:09:58 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
Ah, the evils of 'political correctness'. How about the evils of being deliberately obtuse and cruel?

"I think Manning is troubled with a real problem, not a cultural delusion. He's going to spend a long time in solitary, where he will be allowed to think of himself any way he wishes"

So despite the fact that everyone reading this thread will be aware of who Manning is, you insist on referring to someone who identifies as a woman as a 'he'. You can't claim that you're assisting clarity, so why are you doing it?

Furthermore, baffles me that you scorn 'bending over backwards for political correctness' and yet applaud bending over backwards for stupidity and inattentiveness. Why don't the headlines refer to her as 'Chelsea (Bradley) Manning (the American soldier who leaked restricted documents to the public and has now been sentenced to 35 years in prison)'?
wrichcirw
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8/30/2013 11:04:40 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 8/29/2013 10:49:36 PM, RoyLatham wrote:

Start a thread on gender identity here on DDO, and a swarm of liberals will insist that gender identity is 99.9% cultural. But then Manning appears, and suddenly it is not cultural at all. I think Manning is troubled with a real problem, not a cultural delusion. He's going to spend a long time in solitary, where he will be allowed to think of himself any way he wishes.

I agree with everything except this paragraph. I don't understand the distinction you're making between "99.9% cultural" and whatever you associate with Manning.

I do believe "liberals" (progressives) do indeed recognize that gender identity is so ingrained that it's "nature" and not "nurture". To the extent that culture accepts transgender people like Manning, it no longer becomes a "real problem". The "real problem" seems to comes from lack of acceptance, and how that lack of acceptance can cause some serious emotional issues that would result in unpredictable and irresponsible events like Manning's leaks.

Had Manning been accepted as a transgender while serving (not saying that the military should or should not), then more than likely he would not have leaked out the documents he leaked. I say this because given the indiscriminate aspect of his leaks, there did not seem to be a discernible purpose to his actions, leaving one to speculate on the psychological causes.
At 8/9/2013 9:41:24 AM, wrichcirw wrote:
If you are civil with me, I will be civil to you. If you decide to bring unreasonable animosity to bear in a reasonable discussion, then what would you expect other than to get flustered?
wrichcirw
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8/30/2013 11:05:35 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 8/30/2013 1:28:02 AM, Wallstreetatheist wrote:
At 8/30/2013 1:02:58 AM, alcarter wrote:
More like cowardly Manning. That some of a ##### who betrayed our country. If he was this much of a wimp, he shouldn't have joined the military in the first place.

He actually did an extremely important thing for our country's people, not necessarily the political class that extorts you though.

Please tell me what this "extremely important thing of our country's people" was. I'm sure every deluded and deranged vigilante thought they were doing some sort of service for society.
At 8/9/2013 9:41:24 AM, wrichcirw wrote:
If you are civil with me, I will be civil to you. If you decide to bring unreasonable animosity to bear in a reasonable discussion, then what would you expect other than to get flustered?