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Health Care Bill

johngriswald
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12/16/2009 11:54:40 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
Just 32 percent of respondents said that President Barack Obama's health care overhaul proposal is a good idea, with 47 percent responding that the plan is a bad idea.

A portion of the poll was released just as the Senate was thrust into health care gridlock after a Republican senator forced a clerk to read aloud a 767-page amendment.
http://www.msnbc.msn.com...

Your personal views?
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Volkov
Posts: 9,765
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12/16/2009 12:30:28 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
There was an article I read awhile ago saying that most of the opposition to the bill is coming from the left, not the right. People aren't impressed that the bill has been watered down so much (even though it still has important reforms) and think it is now working more in the favour of the insurance companies than citizens, which may or may not be true; what I do know, though, is that Howard Dean thinks this bill should be killed.

So essentially, it isn't that people don't want healthcare reforms, they just don't want this bill. Which is understandable - why support a bill that does nothing but preserve the status quo?
wjmelements
Posts: 8,206
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12/16/2009 12:41:23 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 12/16/2009 11:54:40 AM, johngriswald wrote:
Republican senator forced a clerk to read aloud a 767-page amendment.

The whole thing? I can only imagine people sleeping through that.
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Volkov
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12/16/2009 12:44:14 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
I'm really disappointed with what is going on in the Senate. It is bloody stupid how a minority of members can hold hostage a large majority, and delay any progress whatsoever on these issues. It isn't a mystery why the US political scene is so apathetic and pointless; why bother to vote or participate when this BS occurs?
MikeLoviN
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12/16/2009 12:45:25 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 12/16/2009 12:30:28 PM, Volkov wrote:
So essentially, it isn't that people don't want healthcare reforms, they just don't want this bill. Which is understandable - why support a bill that does nothing but preserve the status quo?

Because if we've seen anything about the way American politics work, it's either this or nothing.

Maintaining the status quo is the best way of avoiding a thrashing at the polls. After all, politics is politics. The trick is to do a little bit at a time so that people don't notice any major differences but at some point down the road can look back and see just how much things have changed.
wjmelements
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12/16/2009 12:48:13 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 12/16/2009 12:44:14 PM, Volkov wrote:
I'm really disappointed with what is going on in the Senate. It is bloody stupid how a minority of members can hold hostage a large majority, and delay any progress whatsoever on these issues. It isn't a mystery why the US political scene is so apathetic and pointless; why bother to vote or participate when this BS occurs?

I wouldn't want any such radical change to pass with only a 50% majority. It's even worse when that majority only exists in the political system.

As I understand it, the republicans are biding time. The longer the bill waits, the more they can publish about it and the more they can get the public to oppose the bill.
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wjmelements
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12/16/2009 12:49:23 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 12/16/2009 12:45:25 PM, MikeLoviN wrote:
The trick is to do a little bit at a time so that people don't notice any major differences but at some point down the road can look back and see just how much things have changed.

Like animal farm:)
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Volkov
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12/16/2009 12:54:56 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 12/16/2009 12:48:13 PM, wjmelements
I wouldn't want any such radical change to pass with only a 50% majority. It's even worse when that majority only exists in the political system.

I never said anything about a 50% majority. That 60% majority (or 66% in a lot of other countries) is the best marker; but when you end up with silly things like having four Senators water down and essentially gut a bill, it gets a little ridiculous.

At that rate, nothing would change. Nothing would get done. The legislature would be pointless. You'd have what would essentially be a permanent deadlock to the detriment of your country not only domestically, but internationally.

I mean, Jesus Christ, you have elections for a reason. Voters give the legislature their mandate with the idea in mind that something will get done. Is anything getting done? No.

Reform or gtfo.

As I understand it, the republicans are biding time. The longer the bill waits, the more they can publish about it and the more they can get the public to oppose the bill.

Yeah, superb. Don't care about their reasons.
johngriswald
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12/16/2009 12:55:51 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 12/16/2009 12:45:25 PM, MikeLoviN wrote:
At 12/16/2009 12:30:28 PM, Volkov wrote:
So essentially, it isn't that people don't want healthcare reforms, they just don't want this bill. Which is understandable - why support a bill that does nothing but preserve the status quo?

Because if we've seen anything about the way American politics work, it's either this or nothing.

Maintaining the status quo is the best way of avoiding a thrashing at the polls. After all, politics is politics. The trick is to do a little bit at a time so that people don't notice any major differences but at some point down the road can look back and see just how much things have changed.

Notice the length and cost of this bill. It seems that if all it does is "maintain the status quo" or do "a little at a time" it does so with a high cost, and a lot of wording.
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wjmelements
Posts: 8,206
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12/16/2009 12:58:40 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 12/16/2009 12:54:56 PM, Volkov wrote:
At 12/16/2009 12:48:13 PM, wjmelements
I wouldn't want any such radical change to pass with only a 50% majority. It's even worse when that majority only exists in the political system.

Blah blah blah

Don't strawman me. I didn't say anything of that sort. I was just stating why we need it to be 60% and not 50.

Reform or gtfo.

But not this bill.

As I understand it, the republicans are biding time. The longer the bill waits, the more they can publish about it and the more they can get the public to oppose the bill.

Yeah, superb. Don't care about their reasons.

They have to research the bill to be able to discuss it, don't you know? this bill just got out of committee.
in the blink of an eye you finally see the light
Volkov
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12/16/2009 1:03:12 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 12/16/2009 12:58:40 PM, wjmelements wrote:
Don't strawman me. I didn't say anything of that sort. I was just stating why we need it to be 60% and not 50.

You simply said "no 50%," nothing about the 60%. Simply a negative, no positive.

But not this bill.

Not this bill because you oppose it. I guarantee that when there is a bill that you like and agree with that comes along, and the Democrats decide to block it, you're going to be raving mad. Guarantee it.

They have to research the bill to be able to discuss it, don't you know? this bill just got out of committee.

Mhm. Like Republicans will actually read something. Oh, was that an ad hominem?
johngriswald
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12/16/2009 1:05:39 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 12/16/2009 1:03:12 PM, Volkov wrote:
I guarantee that when there is a bill that you like and agree with that comes along, and the Democrats decide to block it, you're going to be raving mad. Guarantee it.

I can only imagine what that bill will be. Possibly the everyone get off your butts and work bill.
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Volkov
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12/16/2009 1:06:47 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 12/16/2009 1:05:39 PM, johngriswald wrote:
I can only imagine what that bill will be. Possibly the everyone get off your butts and work bill.

Har-har. Maybe. xD
Volkov
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12/16/2009 1:07:28 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 12/16/2009 1:06:47 PM, Volkov wrote:
At 12/16/2009 1:05:39 PM, johngriswald wrote:
I can only imagine what that bill will be. Possibly the everyone get off your butts and work bill.

Har-har. Maybe. xD

Actually no; that would require the GOP getting a spine. Won't happen anytime soon.
wjmelements
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12/16/2009 1:08:06 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 12/16/2009 1:03:12 PM, Volkov wrote:
At 12/16/2009 12:58:40 PM, wjmelements wrote:
Don't strawman me. I didn't say anything of that sort. I was just stating why we need it to be 60% and not 50.

You simply said "no 50%," nothing about the 60%. Simply a negative, no positive.

Read what I was replying to. kthnx

But not this bill.

Not this bill because you oppose it. I guarantee that when there is a bill that you like and agree with that comes along, and the Democrats decide to block it, you're going to be raving mad. Guarantee it.

So now we're in a different discussion. Let's discuss the merit of this bill. What makes you think it will lower health costs?

They have to research the bill to be able to discuss it, don't you know? this bill just got out of committee.

Mhm. Like Republicans will actually read something. Oh, was that an ad hominem?

Why yes it was. And an unwarranted one at that.
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wjmelements
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12/16/2009 1:10:04 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 12/16/2009 1:08:06 PM, wjmelements wrote:
You simply said "no 50%," nothing about the 60%. Simply a negative, no positive.

Read what I was replying to. kthnx

I suppose it's a little ambiguous because of the quoting. Never mind.
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Volkov
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12/16/2009 1:14:42 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 12/16/2009 1:08:06 PM, wjmelements wrote:
So now we're in a different discussion. Let's discuss the merit of this bill. What makes you think it will lower health costs?

I wasn't discussing the merits of the bill. You should know by now that my interest in the US healthcare bill ended quite awhile ago.

Besides, I don't think the bill in its current incarnation is superb or that it will lower healthcare costs much, if at all. Any meaningful reform probably died awhile back.

Why yes it was. And an unwarranted one at that.

I thought it was very well placed, warranted or not.
wjmelements
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12/16/2009 1:15:33 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 12/16/2009 1:14:42 PM, Volkov wrote:
Any meaningful reform probably died awhile back.

Then why do you support this bill?
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Volkov
Posts: 9,765
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12/16/2009 1:15:39 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 12/16/2009 1:14:42 PM, Volkov wrote:
At 12/16/2009 1:08:06 PM, wjmelements wrote:
So now we're in a different discussion. Let's discuss the merit of this bill. What makes you think it will lower health costs?

I wasn't discussing the merits of the bill. You should know by now that my interest in the US healthcare bill ended quite awhile ago.

Besides, I don't think the bill in its current incarnation is superb or that it will lower healthcare costs much, if at all. Any meaningful and cost-effective* reform probably died awhile
Volkov
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12/16/2009 1:21:12 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 12/16/2009 1:15:33 PM, wjmelements wrote:
At 12/16/2009 1:14:42 PM, Volkov wrote:
Any meaningful reform probably died awhile back.

Then why do you support this bill?

I never said I actually supported the bill, though I suppose I gather my reasoning from what I've read on some 538 articles (great source, right?). There is still some reform that should be passed, regardless. http://www.fivethirtyeight.com...
wjmelements
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12/16/2009 1:23:18 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 12/16/2009 1:21:12 PM, Volkov wrote:
At 12/16/2009 1:15:33 PM, wjmelements wrote:
At 12/16/2009 1:14:42 PM, Volkov wrote:
Any meaningful reform probably died awhile back.

Then why do you support this bill?

I never said I actually supported the bill

Then what's wrong with blocking it?

though I suppose I gather my reasoning from what I've read on some 538 articles (great source, right?). There is still some reform that should be passed, regardless. http://www.fivethirtyeight.com...

Link isnt' to an article. Tell me what you believe.
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johngriswald
Posts: 1,294
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12/16/2009 1:24:42 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
I don't know why our failure of a congress can't simply just pass the reforms that everyone agrees should happen, leave out the ridiculous spending, and call it a Christmas present to the public.
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wjmelements
Posts: 8,206
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12/16/2009 1:26:28 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 12/16/2009 1:24:42 PM, johngriswald wrote:
reforms that everyone agrees should happen

No such reforms exist. Even tort reform is somehow contraversial.
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johngriswald
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12/16/2009 1:29:04 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 12/16/2009 1:26:28 PM, wjmelements wrote:
At 12/16/2009 1:24:42 PM, johngriswald wrote:
reforms that everyone agrees should happen

No such reforms exist. Even tort reform is somehow contraversial.

There are reforms that 99% of people agree with let's start with those one at a time and see where we get instead of shoving every clause known to man down our throats.

There's only one clause I care about this christmas, and he's fat and dressed in red.
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wjmelements
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12/16/2009 1:30:29 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 12/16/2009 1:29:04 PM, johngriswald wrote:
At 12/16/2009 1:26:28 PM, wjmelements wrote:
At 12/16/2009 1:24:42 PM, johngriswald wrote:
reforms that everyone agrees should happen

No such reforms exist. Even tort reform is somehow contraversial.

There are reforms that 99% of people agree with let's start with those one at a time and see where we get instead of shoving every clause known to man down our throats.

Name such a reform. The percentages on tort are between 60 and 80.
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Reasoning
Posts: 4,456
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12/16/2009 1:31:57 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
Interesting point: reform is by definition a good thing

reform: to put or change into an improved form or condition[1]

Therefore, those advocating reform are begging the question.

[1] http://www.merriam-webster.com...
"What we really ought to ask the liberal, before we even begin addressing his agenda, is this: In what kind of society would he be a conservative?" - Joseph Sobran
Volkov
Posts: 9,765
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12/16/2009 1:33:09 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 12/16/2009 1:23:18 PM, wjmelements wrote:
Then what's wrong with blocking it?

1. I like being consistent.

2. I think that if the voters give you a mandate, you better damn well use it. Giving a 40% minority the ability to block it, or having four members gut it, isn't using that mandate, and is a perversion of the system.

3. Reforms are good; status quo (in this case) is bad.

Link isnt' to an article. Tell me what you believe.

Fix'd: http://www.fivethirtyeight.com...

Anyways, I believe the US should go to single-payer, if you must know. I know it won't happen, but I think it is the best idea to strive for. I just think it is the better option in terms of coverage, cost and control.

But, as I said, it won't happen. The best the US can hope for is a worthwhile public option which gives individuals decent coverage regardless of fiscal or medical status and allows businesses to chop off their own healthcare costs all the while.
johngriswald
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12/16/2009 1:34:03 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 12/16/2009 1:30:29 PM, wjmelements wrote:
At 12/16/2009 1:29:04 PM, johngriswald wrote:
At 12/16/2009 1:26:28 PM, wjmelements wrote:
At 12/16/2009 1:24:42 PM, johngriswald wrote:
reforms that everyone agrees should happen

No such reforms exist. Even tort reform is somehow contraversial.

There are reforms that 99% of people agree with let's start with those one at a time and see where we get instead of shoving every clause known to man down our throats.

Name such a reform. The percentages on tort are between 60 and 80.

For one a cap on the amount of winnings for a malpractice suit.
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Reasoning
Posts: 4,456
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12/16/2009 1:34:43 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 12/16/2009 1:33:09 PM, Volkov wrote:
Reforms are good

This is true by definition, what I dispute is that it is reform.
"What we really ought to ask the liberal, before we even begin addressing his agenda, is this: In what kind of society would he be a conservative?" - Joseph Sobran