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Chicago: Gun Control SUCCESS!

Wallstreetatheist
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8/27/2013 2:42:14 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
I was just about to post this when I realized that I met the author of this article at a Students For Liberty event. Every time his gf comes to my University, we have a good time.

Nevertheless, 4 of the 20 most dangerous neighborhoods in the US are subsumed by one city: Chicago. It's a success in that it's made the public more vulnerable to assault + murder, increased fear, and increased reliance on inefficient government agents for safety.

"Chicago finished out 2012 with a bang, as it passed a major milestone hitting over 500 murders. Chicago has started off 2013 on the wrong foot, with this past week"s murder rate outpacing 2012"s. In the wake of Sandy Hook, many people have called for increased gun control. While they have mostly targeted so called "assault weapons," proponents of gun control have also sought to further limit handguns. Chicago has some of the strictest gun control laws in the country. Illinois remains the only state in the country where nobody can legally carry a concealed weapon, and lawmakers recently introduced measures to restrict legal gun ownership even more."

Article: http://www.policymic.com...
20 Most Dangerous Cities: http://naseerjutt.likes.com...
DRUG HARM: http://imgur.com...
Primal Diet. Lifting. Reading. Psychedelics. Cold-Approach Pickup. Music.
TheHitchslap
Posts: 1,231
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8/27/2013 10:08:32 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 8/27/2013 2:42:14 AM, Wallstreetatheist wrote:
I was just about to post this when I realized that I met the author of this article at a Students For Liberty event. Every time his gf comes to my University, we have a good time.

Nevertheless, 4 of the 20 most dangerous neighborhoods in the US are subsumed by one city: Chicago. It's a success in that it's made the public more vulnerable to assault + murder, increased fear, and increased reliance on inefficient government agents for safety.

"Chicago finished out 2012 with a bang, as it passed a major milestone hitting over 500 murders. Chicago has started off 2013 on the wrong foot, with this past week"s murder rate outpacing 2012"s. In the wake of Sandy Hook, many people have called for increased gun control. While they have mostly targeted so called "assault weapons," proponents of gun control have also sought to further limit handguns. Chicago has some of the strictest gun control laws in the country. Illinois remains the only state in the country where nobody can legally carry a concealed weapon, and lawmakers recently introduced measures to restrict legal gun ownership even more."


Article: http://www.policymic.com...
20 Most Dangerous Cities: http://naseerjutt.likes.com...

.....you realize that the point your trying to make in the gun control debate is silly right?

Correlation =/= Causation.
And in fact if you look at countries with more gun control than less, you see a correlation of less gun crimes being committed.

I think the issue here is more about Chicago's police corruption. Being one of the oldest police forces, and one of the biggest, it's ripe for cops to get too cocky. Look at all the recent scandals they've had lately.
Thank you for voting!
Eitan_Zohar
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8/27/2013 10:16:42 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
Oh good, another little microthread crowing "statistics prove liberty works!" that you aren't ever going to post on again.
"It is my ambition to say in ten sentences what others say in a whole book."
Wallstreetatheist
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8/27/2013 10:47:05 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 8/27/2013 10:08:32 AM, TheHitchslap wrote:
Correlation =/= Causation.

What we find with gun bans is a universal increase in crime after gun bans, and a universal decrease in crime following mandatory gun ownership legislation and/or the suspension of gun bans.

Case Study: Kennesaw, Georgia vs. Morton Grove, Illinois

In March 1982, 25 years ago, the small town of Kennesaw " responding to a handgun ban in Morton Grove, Ill. " unanimously passed an ordinance requiring each head of household to own and maintain a gun. Since then, despite dire predictions of "Wild West" showdowns and increased violence and accidents, not a single resident has been involved in a fatal shooting " as a victim, attacker or defender.

The crime rate initially plummeted for several years after the passage of the ordinance, with the 2005 per capita crime rate actually significantly lower than it was in 1981, the year before passage of the law.

Prior to enactment of the law, Kennesaw had a population of just 5,242 but a crime rate significantly higher (4,332 per 100,000) than the national average (3,899 per 100,000). The latest statistics available " for the year 2005 " show the rate at 2,027 per 100,000. Meanwhile, the population has skyrocketed to 28,189.

By comparison, the population of Morton Grove, the first city in Illinois to adopt a gun ban for anyone other than police officers, has actually dropped slightly and stands at 22,202, according to 2005 statistics. More significantly, perhaps, the city"s crime rate increased by 15.7 percent immediately after the gun ban, even though the overall crime rate in Cook County rose only 3 percent. Today, by comparison, the township"s crime rate stands at 2,268 per 100,000.

http://libertycrier.com...

And in fact if you look at countries with more gun control than less, you see a correlation of less gun crimes being committed.

What you do see is an increase in violent crimes after the passage of the gun control legislation.

Case Study: United Kingdom

Now, the Daily Mail reports that while law abiding citizens have been nearly universally disarmed, the criminals have not and flaunt their power. According to the Mail, "the level of violent crime in Britain has risen by 70 per cent. Gun crime is up by more than half and there are more than 100 serious knife crimes each day, with fatal stabbings having reached the highest level on record." http://www.examiner.com...

I think the issue here is more about Chicago's police corruption. Being one of the oldest police forces, and one of the biggest, it's ripe for cops to get too cocky. Look at all the recent scandals they've had lately.

There's no doubt that governments are awful rights protectors, but the empirical, causal, statistical evidence near-universally supports the fact that more legal gun ownership decreases crime.
DRUG HARM: http://imgur.com...
Primal Diet. Lifting. Reading. Psychedelics. Cold-Approach Pickup. Music.
ClassicRobert
Posts: 2,487
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8/27/2013 11:03:29 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 8/27/2013 10:47:05 PM, Wallstreetatheist wrote:
At 8/27/2013 10:08:32 AM, TheHitchslap wrote:
Correlation =/= Causation.

What we find with gun bans is a universal increase in crime after gun bans, and a universal decrease in crime following mandatory gun ownership legislation and/or the suspension of gun bans.

I mean, that's not exactly the case. Take the Federal Assault Weapons Ban of 1994 right here in America as an example.

http://s4.hubimg.com...

It was instituted in 1994, and didn't end until 2005. Looks a lot like the correlation shows the opposite of what you claim.

Case Study: Kennesaw, Georgia vs. Morton Grove, Illinois

In March 1982, 25 years ago, the small town of Kennesaw " responding to a handgun ban in Morton Grove, Ill. " unanimously passed an ordinance requiring each head of household to own and maintain a gun. Since then, despite dire predictions of "Wild West" showdowns and increased violence and accidents, not a single resident has been involved in a fatal shooting " as a victim, attacker or defender.

The crime rate initially plummeted for several years after the passage of the ordinance, with the 2005 per capita crime rate actually significantly lower than it was in 1981, the year before passage of the law.

Prior to enactment of the law, Kennesaw had a population of just 5,242 but a crime rate significantly higher (4,332 per 100,000) than the national average (3,899 per 100,000). The latest statistics available " for the year 2005 " show the rate at 2,027 per 100,000. Meanwhile, the population has skyrocketed to 28,189.

By comparison, the population of Morton Grove, the first city in Illinois to adopt a gun ban for anyone other than police officers, has actually dropped slightly and stands at 22,202, according to 2005 statistics. More significantly, perhaps, the city"s crime rate increased by 15.7 percent immediately after the gun ban, even though the overall crime rate in Cook County rose only 3 percent. Today, by comparison, the township"s crime rate stands at 2,268 per 100,000.

http://libertycrier.com...

And in fact if you look at countries with more gun control than less, you see a correlation of less gun crimes being committed.

What you do see is an increase in violent crimes after the passage of the gun control legislation.

Case Study: United Kingdom

Now, the Daily Mail reports that while law abiding citizens have been nearly universally disarmed, the criminals have not and flaunt their power. According to the Mail, "the level of violent crime in Britain has risen by 70 per cent. Gun crime is up by more than half and there are more than 100 serious knife crimes each day, with fatal stabbings having reached the highest level on record." http://www.examiner.com...

I think the issue here is more about Chicago's police corruption. Being one of the oldest police forces, and one of the biggest, it's ripe for cops to get too cocky. Look at all the recent scandals they've had lately.

There's no doubt that governments are awful rights protectors, but the empirical, causal, statistical evidence near-universally supports the fact that more legal gun ownership decreases crime.
Debate me: Economic decision theory should be adjusted to include higher-order preferences for non-normative purposes http://www.debate.org...

Do you really believe that? Or not? If you believe it, you should man up and defend it in a debate. -RoyLatham

My Pet Fish is such a Douche- NiamC

It's an app to meet friends and stuff, sort of like an adult club penguin- Thett3, describing Tinder
TheHitchslap
Posts: 1,231
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8/28/2013 8:27:11 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 8/27/2013 10:47:05 PM, Wallstreetatheist wrote:
At 8/27/2013 10:08:32 AM, TheHitchslap wrote:
Correlation =/= Causation.

What we find with gun bans is a universal increase in crime after gun bans, and a universal decrease in crime following mandatory gun ownership legislation and/or the suspension of gun bans.

...uhhh no we actually do not.
In Australia the gun buy back caused gun homicides to fall about 46%
http://tobacco.health.usyd.edu.au...
http://www.politifact.com...

Same as in the US:
http://www.hsph.harvard.edu...

Case Study: Kennesaw, Georgia vs. Morton Grove, Illinois

In March 1982, 25 years ago, the small town of Kennesaw " responding to a handgun ban in Morton Grove, Ill. " unanimously passed an ordinance requiring each head of household to own and maintain a gun. Since then, despite dire predictions of "Wild West" showdowns and increased violence and accidents, not a single resident has been involved in a fatal shooting " as a victim, attacker or defender.

The crime rate initially plummeted for several years after the passage of the ordinance, with the 2005 per capita crime rate actually significantly lower than it was in 1981, the year before passage of the law.

Prior to enactment of the law, Kennesaw had a population of just 5,242 but a crime rate significantly higher (4,332 per 100,000) than the national average (3,899 per 100,000). The latest statistics available " for the year 2005 " show the rate at 2,027 per 100,000. Meanwhile, the population has skyrocketed to 28,189.

By comparison, the population of Morton Grove, the first city in Illinois to adopt a gun ban for anyone other than police officers, has actually dropped slightly and stands at 22,202, according to 2005 statistics. More significantly, perhaps, the city"s crime rate increased by 15.7 percent immediately after the gun ban, even though the overall crime rate in Cook County rose only 3 percent. Today, by comparison, the township"s crime rate stands at 2,268 per 100,000.

http://libertycrier.com...

Liberty Crier is a libertarian biased newspaper. Really do you think their going to be objective at all? They even flaunted their "free-state" crap everywhere on their page.

Even then ... again correlation is NOTcausation. In fact google the town of Kenshaw, you find this is deeply flawed.
http://www.city-data.com...
Kenshaw does have relatively high crime rates for it's size. (in comparison to neighboring cities)

And in fact if you look at countries with more gun control than less, you see a correlation of less gun crimes being committed.

What you do see is an increase in violent crimes after the passage of the gun control legislation.

So explain to me why the Nordic Countries have far lesser gun crimes then the US?
They have some of the strictest gun control ever on the planet. The military in Switzerland doesn't even get ammo in their guns.. (only 2000 actually have them the rest are not allowed to be kept at home but it's mandatory to keep in the military armory)

Case Study: United Kingdom

Now, the Daily Mail reports that while law abiding citizens have been nearly universally disarmed, the criminals have not and flaunt their power. According to the Mail, "the level of violent crime in Britain has risen by 70 per cent. Gun crime is up by more than half and there are more than 100 serious knife crimes each day, with fatal stabbings having reached the highest level on record." http://www.examiner.com...

Lies ...and misleading. Those stats cannot tell the difference between the number of those killed and crimes committed by differing persons. For example, does a man who does a mass killing commit say 100 crimes if he kills 100 people? Or is it one crime? If it's a crime per person killed (kills 100 thus 100 crimes) then these stats are misleading. A rise in crime rates might be seen via percentages, but might still have less people committing crimes.

In fact since gun laws of the 1960's in Britian, we actually see a general drop in crime rates. However, simply from the legislations of 1996 onward, still a drop.

https://www.gov.uk...

I think the issue here is more about Chicago's police corruption. Being one of the oldest police forces, and one of the biggest, it's ripe for cops to get too cocky. Look at all the recent scandals they've had lately.

There's no doubt that governments are awful rights protectors, but the empirical, causal, statistical evidence near-universally supports the fact that more legal gun ownership decreases crime.

Agreed that we need a better police force/ justice system. I do not agree that someone can become a forensic scientist with a simple course online, however, you are actually factually wrong on the gun control debate. Try using actual studies instead of newspapers. Big difference. They find that the opposite is true. Gun control works wayyy better than the other way around, and the NRA is full of crap. In fact they were threatened by Australia for being misleading.

http://www.wnd.com...
http://www.snopes.com...
Thank you for voting!
ClassicRobert
Posts: 2,487
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8/28/2013 9:12:17 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 8/28/2013 8:27:11 AM, TheHitchslap wrote:
At 8/27/2013 10:47:05 PM, Wallstreetatheist wrote:
At 8/27/2013 10:08:32 AM, TheHitchslap wrote:
Correlation =/= Causation.

What we find with gun bans is a universal increase in crime after gun bans, and a universal decrease in crime following mandatory gun ownership legislation and/or the suspension of gun bans.

...uhhh no we actually do not.
In Australia the gun buy back caused gun homicides to fall about 46%

Caused? Cough cough correlated with. Also, why does gun homicides matter in this debate? If you outlaw knives, knives will be used less for homicide. What's actually important is overall homicide, because if gun homicides drop but overall homicides increase, that means there is an opportunity cost of lives that could be saved through not enacting the policy.
Debate me: Economic decision theory should be adjusted to include higher-order preferences for non-normative purposes http://www.debate.org...

Do you really believe that? Or not? If you believe it, you should man up and defend it in a debate. -RoyLatham

My Pet Fish is such a Douche- NiamC

It's an app to meet friends and stuff, sort of like an adult club penguin- Thett3, describing Tinder
TheHitchslap
Posts: 1,231
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8/28/2013 9:28:33 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 8/28/2013 9:12:17 AM, ClassicRobert wrote:
At 8/28/2013 8:27:11 AM, TheHitchslap wrote:
At 8/27/2013 10:47:05 PM, Wallstreetatheist wrote:
At 8/27/2013 10:08:32 AM, TheHitchslap wrote:
Correlation =/= Causation.

What we find with gun bans is a universal increase in crime after gun bans, and a universal decrease in crime following mandatory gun ownership legislation and/or the suspension of gun bans.

...uhhh no we actually do not.
In Australia the gun buy back caused gun homicides to fall about 46%

Caused? Cough cough correlated with. Also, why does gun homicides matter in this debate? If you outlaw knives, knives will be used less for homicide. What's actually important is overall homicide, because if gun homicides drop but overall homicides increase, that means there is an opportunity cost of lives that could be saved through not enacting the policy.

No. There is a standard for causation data, and Australia has it with it's cross-sectional analysis of gun statistics. However claiming causation might be different.
And no. Generalizing isn't good for seeing actual results. It cannot be overall homicides. While a small part of homicides should decrease due to the gun controls, it might not always appear that way if more stabbings occur instead. So even though gun control worked, prima facie it may look as though it didn't.
Besides, if I'm a politician making a gun control law, I would think it would logically follow that my intention is to regulate guns, and gun activities. I would think that although I would be concerned about punches to the face, or stabbings as well, that the legislation concerning guns would only be for guns and their impact, NOT for stabbings, or punching, etc...

http://www.huffingtonpost.com...
http://www.factcheck.org...
http://scienceblogs.com...
https://www.ncjrs.gov...
Thank you for voting!
Wocambs
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8/28/2013 7:05:18 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
I'm going to take most of this from a debate I did.

You wish to use the UK as an example? Very well, but first I must warn you that the Daily Mail's articles are usually complete bollocks.
In The UK:
"Between April 2010 and May 2011 there were 11,227 recorded offences involving firearms... 6,303 crimes committed using weapons that Americans would laugh at " non-firing replicas, air weapons, pepper spray, etc. This compares quite starkly to 4,924 crimes committed using "real" guns."

(http://tinyurl.com...)

""A comparative shortage of guns in circulation has triggered a price spike in the underworld firearms market, according to detectives ... Police in the West Midlands have reported the emergence on the streets of more antique weapons using home-made ammunition and more sharing of weapons between gangs to counter the shortages."

(http://tinyurl.com...) - January 2013 article.

So yes, we do have a crippling gun problem in the UK, what with all those air guns and rusty old shotguns being hauled out of retirement.

Anyway, lets look at all those 'self-defence' uses of guns.

"far more survey respondents report having been threatened for intimidated with a gun than having used a gun to protect themselves. A majority of the reported self-defence gun uses were rated as probably illegal by a majority of judges. This was so even under the assumption that the respondent had a permit to own and carry the gun, and that the respondent had described the event honestly"

(http://injuryprevention.bmj.com...)

A quick point. Gun control reduces gun deaths. http://www.theatlantic.com...

And finally...

Gun ownership has been decreasing in America, although it seems that the declining proportion of owners have decided to amass vast armouries (they probably feel threatened, which would make sense, considering that the attitude of gun-owners seems to be that of general paranoia).

(http://www.motherjones.com...)

Meanwhile, the violent crime rate in the US has fallen significantly.

(http://www.fbi.gov...)

Indeed, correlation does not mean causation, but it seems there are methods of reducing crime which work, and that it is not more guns.
YYW
Posts: 36,286
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8/28/2013 7:16:07 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 8/27/2013 2:42:14 AM, Wallstreetatheist wrote:
I was just about to post this when I realized that I met the author of this article at a Students For Liberty event. Every time his gf comes to my University, we have a good time.

Nevertheless, 4 of the 20 most dangerous neighborhoods in the US are subsumed by one city: Chicago. It's a success in that it's made the public more vulnerable to assault + murder, increased fear, and increased reliance on inefficient government agents for safety.

"Chicago finished out 2012 with a bang, as it passed a major milestone hitting over 500 murders. Chicago has started off 2013 on the wrong foot, with this past week"s murder rate outpacing 2012"s. In the wake of Sandy Hook, many people have called for increased gun control. While they have mostly targeted so called "assault weapons," proponents of gun control have also sought to further limit handguns. Chicago has some of the strictest gun control laws in the country. Illinois remains the only state in the country where nobody can legally carry a concealed weapon, and lawmakers recently introduced measures to restrict legal gun ownership even more."


Article: http://www.policymic.com...
20 Most Dangerous Cities: http://naseerjutt.likes.com...

Solution: break apart the community and its members. Relocate them to separate areas throughout the state. Require that they attend reeducation camps.
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