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Syria: Yea or Nay

inferno
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9/4/2013 10:47:44 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
Of course we understand that this battle would no necessarily constitute a conventional war. But are you for us invading Syria, or should we just leave all of this alone. More about this later you guys. What are you comments about this situation.
Will this make or break Obama. You tell me. =)
ConservativeAmerican
Posts: 1,676
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9/4/2013 12:43:02 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 9/4/2013 10:47:44 AM, inferno wrote:
Of course we understand that this battle would no necessarily constitute a conventional war. But are you for us invading Syria, or should we just leave all of this alone. More about this later you guys. What are you comments about this situation.
Will this make or break Obama. You tell me. =)

Obama made a smart decision by handing it over to congress, makes him look like a champion of the people plus takes the heat off of him.

In the end some intervention is needed, chemical weapons are weapons of genocide. k
inferno
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9/4/2013 12:57:39 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 9/4/2013 12:46:40 PM, Wnope wrote:
Do we have conclusive evidence the sarin gas was deployed by the government and not rebels?

I believe John Kerry and so should you. How much more conclusive do you want the Goverment to be. Have you seen the videos of what these people are going through. =)
inferno
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9/4/2013 12:58:03 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 9/4/2013 12:46:40 PM, Wnope wrote:
Do we have conclusive evidence the sarin gas was deployed by the government and not rebels?

I believe John Kerry and so should you too. How much more conclusive do you want the Goverment to be. Have you seen the videos of what these people are going through. =)
Cermank
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9/4/2013 1:02:42 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 9/4/2013 12:46:40 PM, Wnope wrote:
Do we have conclusive evidence the sarin gas was deployed by the government and not rebels?

http://blogs.wsj.com...

Not conclusive, if there's ever such a thing in international politics.

But, on the balance of what information has come out, the large number of video and survivor accounts, and the claims of groups like Doctors Without Borders, I think it's more than likely that some quantity of nerve agent was released on Aug. 21, that it cause many deaths, and that it was done by members of the Syrian military.

But personally, I don't see US intervention simmering things down.
Wnope
Posts: 6,924
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9/4/2013 1:09:01 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 9/4/2013 1:02:42 PM, Cermank wrote:
At 9/4/2013 12:46:40 PM, Wnope wrote:
Do we have conclusive evidence the sarin gas was deployed by the government and not rebels?

http://blogs.wsj.com...

Not conclusive, if there's ever such a thing in international politics.

But, on the balance of what information has come out, the large number of video and survivor accounts, and the claims of groups like Doctors Without Borders, I think it's more than likely that some quantity of nerve agent was released on Aug. 21, that it cause many deaths, and that it was done by members of the Syrian military.

But personally, I don't see US intervention simmering things down.

Alright, that report has me fairly satisfied it was the government.

Still, it's odd they claim the rebels have never used gas when there are quite a few reports saying they have.
Cermank
Posts: 3,773
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9/4/2013 1:20:24 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 9/4/2013 1:09:01 PM, Wnope wrote:
At 9/4/2013 1:02:42 PM, Cermank wrote:
At 9/4/2013 12:46:40 PM, Wnope wrote:
Do we have conclusive evidence the sarin gas was deployed by the government and not rebels?

http://blogs.wsj.com...

Not conclusive, if there's ever such a thing in international politics.

But, on the balance of what information has come out, the large number of video and survivor accounts, and the claims of groups like Doctors Without Borders, I think it's more than likely that some quantity of nerve agent was released on Aug. 21, that it cause many deaths, and that it was done by members of the Syrian military.

But personally, I don't see US intervention simmering things down.

Alright, that report has me fairly satisfied it was the government.

Still, it's odd they claim the rebels have never used gas when there are quite a few reports saying they have.

The only reports I saw were allegations by Assad. And Putin agreeing. I guess we'll have an unbiased account after UN comes out with their report.
ConservativeAmerican
Posts: 1,676
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9/4/2013 1:21:04 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 9/4/2013 1:09:01 PM, Wnope wrote:
At 9/4/2013 1:02:42 PM, Cermank wrote:
At 9/4/2013 12:46:40 PM, Wnope wrote:
Do we have conclusive evidence the sarin gas was deployed by the government and not rebels?

http://blogs.wsj.com...

Not conclusive, if there's ever such a thing in international politics.

But, on the balance of what information has come out, the large number of video and survivor accounts, and the claims of groups like Doctors Without Borders, I think it's more than likely that some quantity of nerve agent was released on Aug. 21, that it cause many deaths, and that it was done by members of the Syrian military.

But personally, I don't see US intervention simmering things down.

Alright, that report has me fairly satisfied it was the government.

Still, it's odd they claim the rebels have never used gas when there are quite a few reports saying they have.

The syrian opposition has never objectively been proven to have the technology capable of carrying out chemical weapon attacks.
inferno
Posts: 10,660
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9/4/2013 1:44:33 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 9/4/2013 1:21:04 PM, ConservativeAmerican wrote:
At 9/4/2013 1:09:01 PM, Wnope wrote:
At 9/4/2013 1:02:42 PM, Cermank wrote:
At 9/4/2013 12:46:40 PM, Wnope wrote:
Do we have conclusive evidence the sarin gas was deployed by the government and not rebels?

http://blogs.wsj.com...

Not conclusive, if there's ever such a thing in international politics.

But, on the balance of what information has come out, the large number of video and survivor accounts, and the claims of groups like Doctors Without Borders, I think it's more than likely that some quantity of nerve agent was released on Aug. 21, that it cause many deaths, and that it was done by members of the Syrian military.

But personally, I don't see US intervention simmering things down.

Alright, that report has me fairly satisfied it was the government.

Still, it's odd they claim the rebels have never used gas when there are quite a few reports saying they have.

The syrian opposition has never objectively been proven to have the technology capable of carrying out chemical weapon attacks.

In spite of their incompetence, we do have the capability to stop this semi genoicide of the Syrian people. Our technology is much more advanced than people think.
This is not Afghan, Iraq, or Iran.
Kiroen
Posts: 23
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9/5/2013 9:08:34 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 9/4/2013 1:20:24 PM, Cermank wrote:

The only reports I saw were allegations by Assad. And Putin agreeing. I guess we'll have an unbiased account after UN comes out with their report.

False.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk...
Kiroen
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9/5/2013 9:14:56 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
I don't know how you guys can believe this bulls-hit. Obama said specifically that 'there would be consequences' If Al Assad used chemical weapons, and he is in no position of giving any claims for Western Powers to invade Syria. If you have been specifically told to not to kill people using a certain method, why would you do it when you've always had the traditional one? This is obviously a prefabricated claim by the US. Anyone remembers the Iraq's massive destruction weapons? Where were those?

The US gets its report right after the chemical attack yet the UN is unable to reach any conclusion more than a week later? If the US has the 'irrefutable evidence' they claim to have, why don't they share it for everyone? Don't make me laugh.
inferno
Posts: 10,660
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9/5/2013 10:16:39 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 9/5/2013 9:14:56 AM, Kiroen wrote:
I don't know how you guys can believe this bulls-hit. Obama said specifically that 'there would be consequences' If Al Assad used chemical weapons, and he is in no position of giving any claims for Western Powers to invade Syria. If you have been specifically told to not to kill people using a certain method, why would you do it when you've always had the traditional one? This is obviously a prefabricated claim by the US. Anyone remembers the Iraq's massive destruction weapons? Where were those?

The US gets its report right after the chemical attack yet the UN is unable to reach any conclusion more than a week later? If the US has the 'irrefutable evidence' they claim to have, why don't they share it for everyone? Don't make me laugh.

Because they do not have to. Regardless of the type of weapons they are using, there is enough death and chaos and economic turmoil there for the US to step in.
DoubtingDave
Posts: 380
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9/5/2013 10:27:28 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
We need to get involved in Syria.

O'Reilly certainly convinced me that there needs to be some action taken.

http://www.foxnews.com...
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Kiroen
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9/5/2013 10:41:55 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
So do you have any kind of universal moral compass or something? Do you seriously believe that everything the US does in Syria is going to be good for the Syrians, that no American individual will try to get a privileged position to make profit? Get out of other people's countries. We don't want you here. They don't want you there.
Cermank
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9/5/2013 10:42:21 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 9/5/2013 10:27:28 AM, DoubtingDave wrote:
We need to get involved in Syria.

O'Reilly certainly convinced me that there needs to be some action taken.

http://www.foxnews.com...

http://www.huffingtonpost.com...

If you haven't read this already.
inferno
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9/5/2013 11:35:52 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 9/5/2013 10:41:55 AM, Kiroen wrote:
So do you have any kind of universal moral compass or something? Do you seriously believe that everything the US does in Syria is going to be good for the Syrians, that no American individual will try to get a privileged position to make profit? Get out of other people's countries. We don't want you here. They don't want you there.

It is a moral issue. Nevermind the politics in this.............
inferno
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9/5/2013 11:36:58 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 9/5/2013 10:27:28 AM, DoubtingDave wrote:
We need to get involved in Syria.

O'Reilly certainly convinced me that there needs to be some action taken.

http://www.foxnews.com...

Sounds like somebody who refuses to think for themselves. Why would you allow a Right Wing ideologue convince you of anything. =)
leojm
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9/5/2013 12:39:41 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 9/4/2013 10:47:44 AM, inferno wrote:
Of course we understand that this battle would no necessarily constitute a conventional war. But are you for us invading Syria, or should we just leave all of this alone. More about this later you guys. What are you comments about this situation.
Will this make or break Obama. You tell me. =)

psh. I think brake him. I think this action will revert us to WW3. Because we gang up on Syria, then the Syrian allies come, than our allies come, than the allies of our allies come and hence forth. This will be a disaster. This will be the wars of all wars let me tell you that. We got so much upgrading in weapons than past wars. We have a HUGE improvement. I don't want that at all. So we need to back off before things get worse. =)
cybertron1998
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9/5/2013 1:13:55 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 9/4/2013 12:46:40 PM, Wnope wrote:
Do we have conclusive evidence the sarin gas was deployed by the government and not rebels?

i hate to say it but you have to consider the possibilities that rebels used the sarin gas. the reason why we blamed the syrian government is because we don't agree with them, and history has shown that something we don't agree with is something that we think is bad or wrong, or even immoral. now i am positive that the rebels know that about us. there could a possibility that they exploited that quality of ours to bring a bad rep on the syrian government. the middle east, its people and government, are very like minded. they might have different views but the way they carry them out is the same.
Epsilon: There are so many stories where some brave hero decides to give their life to save the day, and because of their sacrifice, the good guys win, the survivors all cheer, and everybody lives happily ever after. But the hero... never gets to see that ending. They'll never know if their sacrifice actually made a difference. They'll never know if the day was really saved. In the end, they just have to have faith.
cybertron1998
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9/5/2013 1:18:23 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 9/5/2013 11:35:52 AM, inferno wrote:
At 9/5/2013 10:41:55 AM, Kiroen wrote:
So do you have any kind of universal moral compass or something? Do you seriously believe that everything the US does in Syria is going to be good for the Syrians, that no American individual will try to get a privileged position to make profit? Get out of other people's countries. We don't want you here. They don't want you there.

It is a moral issue. Nevermind the politics in this.............

moral my @ss i don't think we have the right to dictate what other countries can and can't do. if its a national problem we should stay out of it. if its and international problem then its ok to get in to it. we transformed the former into the latter.
Epsilon: There are so many stories where some brave hero decides to give their life to save the day, and because of their sacrifice, the good guys win, the survivors all cheer, and everybody lives happily ever after. But the hero... never gets to see that ending. They'll never know if their sacrifice actually made a difference. They'll never know if the day was really saved. In the end, they just have to have faith.
MysticEgg
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9/5/2013 2:35:00 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
P1: The use of chemical weapons is a breach of at least one international treaty signed by Syria.
P2: The UN will do nothing due to China and Russia throwing their weight around.
P3: "The Assad Regime" or the Damascus government was responsible for the attacks carried out on 21st August, 2013, killing ~1450 people, including ~400 children.
P4: A violation of international law deserves punishment at the perpetrator.
P5: This punishment will not come from the UN directly. (From P2)
C: Therefore, Syria should be punished.
C2: America is doing the right thing by punishing Syria with a missile strike, as other options of punishment are not available.

LOGIC!
P1 - Yep, they signed the Geneva protocol.
P2 - Not 100% certain, but odds are in their favour. Even if the UN did act, I doubt it would be effective. (I mean, they're already at war! No "bad boy" is going to stop that)
P3 - Very clear, and almost certain. http://blogs.wsj.com...
That's as certain as you're ever going to get in international politics.
P4 - Legal and moral requirements. Unless the circumstances are exceptional, but as Russia kindly pointed out, Syria's government is winning.
P5 - See premise two.

I think these conclusions follow quite logically. Anyone want to dispute it? Let me know! :D
inferno
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9/5/2013 3:40:36 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 9/5/2013 2:35:00 PM, MysticEgg wrote:
P1: The use of chemical weapons is a breach of at least one international treaty signed by Syria.
P2: The UN will do nothing due to China and Russia throwing their weight around.
P3: "The Assad Regime" or the Damascus government was responsible for the attacks carried out on 21st August, 2013, killing ~1450 people, including ~400 children.
P4: A violation of international law deserves punishment at the perpetrator.
P5: This punishment will not come from the UN directly. (From P2)
C: Therefore, Syria should be punished.
C2: America is doing the right thing by punishing Syria with a missile strike, as other options of punishment are not available.

LOGIC!
P1 - Yep, they signed the Geneva protocol.
P2 - Not 100% certain, but odds are in their favour. Even if the UN did act, I doubt it would be effective. (I mean, they're already at war! No "bad boy" is going to stop that)
P3 - Very clear, and almost certain. http://blogs.wsj.com...
That's as certain as you're ever going to get in international politics.
P4 - Legal and moral requirements. Unless the circumstances are exceptional, but as Russia kindly pointed out, Syria's government is winning.
P5 - See premise two.

I think these conclusions follow quite logically. Anyone want to dispute it? Let me know! :D

Thanks for the answer here.
proglib
Posts: 391
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9/5/2013 4:37:23 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 9/5/2013 1:13:55 PM, cybertron1998 wrote:
At 9/4/2013 12:46:40 PM, Wnope wrote:
Do we have conclusive evidence the sarin gas was deployed by the government and not rebels?

i hate to say it but you have to consider the possibilities that rebels used the sarin gas. the reason why we blamed the syrian government is because we don't agree with them, and history has shown that something we don't agree with is something that we think is bad or wrong, or even immoral. now i am positive that the rebels know that about us. there could a possibility that they exploited that quality of ours to bring a bad rep on the syrian government. the middle east, its people and government, are very like minded. they might have different views but the way they carry them out is the same.

Based on history, this is not as paranoid as it sounds, IMHO.

Off the top of my head [literally]:

* Gulf of Tonkin
* WMD
* Chile in 70s
* Arbenz in 50s
* 4 or 5 [or 6 or 7--there are barely this many, by the way, folks] Central American countries since about 1970, and twice that number of Latin American countries since the Monroe Doctrine

* Wag the Dog [OK this was a movie, but for F* sake, sometimes I wonder whether we U.S. citizens have 5 minutes history and the common sense of a peanut.

In general, I try not to be sucked into conspiracy theories, and will take this one with a grain of salt.

LEMONADE FROM LEMONS, IMHO: We now have many on the right willing to question war because a Democrat* is in charge whom they hate as we do liberals, lefties, libertarians, Quakers, etc.

* [I resisted all the other adjectives some "conservatives" have tried to pin on the President, because teasing them about why some of them suddenly are reviewing evidence for war rather than jumping on the "chicken hawk warrior" bandwagon would detract from my point. :) ]
"I would remind you that extremism in the defense of liberty is no vice.* And let me remind you also that moderation in the pursuit of justice is no virtue." Barry Goldwater
*Except in a democracy it might lose you an election.

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Deathbeforedishonour
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9/5/2013 5:30:01 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 9/5/2013 10:27:28 AM, DoubtingDave wrote:
We need to get involved in Syria.

O'Reilly certainly convinced me that there needs to be some action taken.

http://www.foxnews.com...

http://24.media.tumblr.com...

;P The only action that needs to be taken is to cut the military budget and close all overseas military bases.
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leojm
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9/5/2013 5:36:57 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
Syrians outlawed the mustard gas, so it wouldn't be use anymore, what makes you all think they wont decide to use it and break the law. hmm? When times are in deperate measures things happen that shouldn't. Are we going to let more innocent people die. Get a grip of yourselves people, we are playing with peoples lives here. Not something to be taken easily. The war on Syria will just disrupt everything. History repeats itself. Be very aware of that, what happened long ago, might happen again, but yet more brutal. If we have World war 3 it would not be pretty at all. One race might be wiped out the face of this earth, and really... does America really wana mess with a country twice as if not three times bigger than itself? That would be a mistake. But hey, Obama is making the decision here, our lively hood, well your livelihood is in his hands and the courts and the the whole government branch. When America goes down, I'm out of here, gone. I'm siding with my homeland country Russia. Sorry, but that's where my heart belongs.
Buddamoose
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9/5/2013 6:06:29 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
If there is sufficient evidence to believe Assad used Nerve Gas on innocent civilians, and initially it looks like that is the case, then yes, we intervene in Syria.
"Reality is an illusion created due to a lack of alcohol"
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Buddamoose
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9/5/2013 6:24:38 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 9/5/2013 5:36:57 PM, leojm wrote:
Syrians outlawed the mustard gas, so it wouldn't be use anymore, what makes you all think they wont decide to use it and break the law. hmm?

They already likely have, thats why this whole discussion is occuring in the first place. Because someone used chemical weapons, and its near certain it was the Syrian government. Ergo, they need to be punished.

When times are in deperate measures things happen that shouldn't. Are we going to let more innocent people die. Get a grip of yourselves people, we are playing with peoples lives here. Not something to be taken easily. The war on Syria will just disrupt everything. History repeats itself.

Ok wait, are you for or against the United States intervening in Syria? Because "are we going to let more innocent people die?" And "the(a) war on syria will just disrupt everything" imply opposite views...

Be very aware of that, what happened long ago, might happen again, but yet more brutal. If we have World war 3 it would not be pretty at all.

How would the united states intervening in Syria if it is shown beyond a reasonable dount that the Syrian government used chemical weapons on civilians, incite a third world war?

One race might be wiped out the face of this earth, and really... does America really wana mess with a country twice as if not three times bigger than itself?

You realize that "land mass" does not equal military strength and capability right? I mean you might have a point with population, if Russia didnt have just half the total population of the United States. In terms of military capability though, the United States has a clear cut advantage. Russia would be pidgeon-holed into attempting to use Nuclear weapons solely because their military is far from on par with ours.

That would be a mistake.

You're right, a conflct between Russia and the U.S. would be a mistake, its a good thing that isnt the issue here, isnt it?

But hey, Obama is making the decision here, our lively hood, well your livelihood is in his hands and the courts and the the whole government branch. When America goes down, i' m out of here, gone. I'm siding with my homeland country Russia. Sorry, but that's where my heart.
"Reality is an illusion created due to a lack of alcohol"
-Airmax1227

"You were the moon all this time, and he was always there to make you shine."

"Was he the sun?"

"No honey, he was the darkness"

-Kazekirion