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These are the only condions that liberals...

Sitara
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9/4/2013 3:58:09 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
...will ever support a war. Get ready: 1. Is it for a just cause? 2. Is it a last resort only, meaning have all other options been tried? 3. Is there an imminent threat to national security? 4. Do/does the person/people declaring this war have a valid authority to do so? 5. Is there a likely success? 6. Is it proportionate, meaning will there be good and bad in equal measures? 7. Is there an exist strategy? 8. The answer must be yes to all of these, or the war is wrong, evil, unfair, pick a negative adjective, and roll with it. Bullish wars are not run by liberals because we do not believe in that. The person is a centrist if they support unjust wars. I got this list from this page: https://www.facebook.com..., this picture specifically: https://www.facebook.com...
lannan13
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9/4/2013 4:10:41 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
What are Condions?
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ConservativeAmerican
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9/4/2013 6:20:01 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 9/4/2013 3:58:09 PM, Sitara wrote:
...will ever support a war. Get ready: 1. Is it for a just cause?

Depends, is spreading enlightenment ideals to oppressed nations just to you?

2. Is it a
last resort only, meaning have all other options been tried?

Fair enough.

3. Is there an imminent threat to national security?

Nations that are world powers should have extra responsibilities in the world, meaning to do things such as prevent genocides, stop them in the process, or punish the people responsible. Sometimes regional interests are also a matter of national security, if civil war erupts in an area next to you, you will have to take in refugees and if not you will have to take a hardliner stance that will involve tightened immigration policies, which isn't liberal.

4. Do/does the person/people declaring this war have a valid authority to do so?

Fair question to ask.

5. Is there a likely success?

Not always a valid question, if a large scale atrocity (like genocide, completely sadistic oppression like what's going on in north korea, etc.) is occurring, a nation that has the capacity to be a police state should at least try to stop the atrocity.

6. Is it proportionate, meaning will there be good and bad in equal measures?

Good question to ask.

7. Is there an exist strategy?

I am assuming you mean exit strategy. This is a valid question to ask, but in situations where temporary occupation is needed, that shouldn't deter you from it if it's a large scale atrocity or will spread enlightenment ideals to a regionally/internationally significant country.

I will debate you one on one about spreading enlightenment ideals and how larger western nations should take up this cause.

I will also debate you on how the UN fails epicly to police the world and how the UN is extremely corrupt, inefficient, and the US should just withdraw from it altogether.
Sitara
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9/4/2013 6:24:17 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 9/4/2013 6:20:01 PM, ConservativeAmerican wrote:
At 9/4/2013 3:58:09 PM, Sitara wrote:
...will ever support a war. Get ready: 1. Is it for a just cause?

Depends, is spreading enlightenment ideals to oppressed nations just to you?

2. Is it a
last resort only, meaning have all other options been tried?

Fair enough.

3. Is there an imminent threat to national security?

Nations that are world powers should have extra responsibilities in the world, meaning to do things such as prevent genocides, stop them in the process, or punish the people responsible. Sometimes regional interests are also a matter of national security, if civil war erupts in an area next to you, you will have to take in refugees and if not you will have to take a hardliner stance that will involve tightened immigration policies, which isn't liberal.

4. Do/does the person/people declaring this war have a valid authority to do so?

Fair question to ask.

5. Is there a likely success?

Not always a valid question, if a large scale atrocity (like genocide, completely sadistic oppression like what's going on in north korea, etc.) is occurring, a nation that has the capacity to be a police state should at least try to stop the atrocity.

6. Is it proportionate, meaning will there be good and bad in equal measures?

Good question to ask.

7. Is there an exist strategy?

I am assuming you mean exit strategy. This is a valid question to ask, but in situations where temporary occupation is needed, that shouldn't deter you from it if it's a large scale atrocity or will spread enlightenment ideals to a regionally/internationally significant country.


I will debate you one on one about spreading enlightenment ideals and how larger western nations should take up this cause.

I will also debate you on how the UN fails epicly to police the world and how the UN is extremely corrupt, inefficient, and the US should just withdraw from it altogether.

1. It is wrong to kill save for life or liberty. 3. Wrong. if there is not an imminent threat to national security, war is not justified. 5 is a very valid question. You are making character judgments. Stick to the facts. 7. Ha ha, bring it. Muah. ;)
ConservativeAmerican
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9/4/2013 6:38:03 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 9/4/2013 6:24:17 PM, Sitara wrote:
At 9/4/2013 6:20:01 PM, ConservativeAmerican wrote:
At 9/4/2013 3:58:09 PM, Sitara wrote:
...will ever support a war. Get ready: 1. Is it for a just cause?

Depends, is spreading enlightenment ideals to oppressed nations just to you?

2. Is it a
last resort only, meaning have all other options been tried?

Fair enough.

3. Is there an imminent threat to national security?

Nations that are world powers should have extra responsibilities in the world, meaning to do things such as prevent genocides, stop them in the process, or punish the people responsible. Sometimes regional interests are also a matter of national security, if civil war erupts in an area next to you, you will have to take in refugees and if not you will have to take a hardliner stance that will involve tightened immigration policies, which isn't liberal.

4. Do/does the person/people declaring this war have a valid authority to do so?

Fair question to ask.

5. Is there a likely success?

Not always a valid question, if a large scale atrocity (like genocide, completely sadistic oppression like what's going on in north korea, etc.) is occurring, a nation that has the capacity to be a police state should at least try to stop the atrocity.

6. Is it proportionate, meaning will there be good and bad in equal measures?

Good question to ask.

7. Is there an exist strategy?

I am assuming you mean exit strategy. This is a valid question to ask, but in situations where temporary occupation is needed, that shouldn't deter you from it if it's a large scale atrocity or will spread enlightenment ideals to a regionally/internationally significant country.


I will debate you one on one about spreading enlightenment ideals and how larger western nations should take up this cause.

I will also debate you on how the UN fails epicly to police the world and how the UN is extremely corrupt, inefficient, and the US should just withdraw from it altogether.

1. It is wrong to kill save for life or liberty. 3. Wrong. if there is not an imminent threat to national security, war is not justified. 5 is a very valid question. You are making character judgments. Stick to the facts. 7. Ha ha, bring it. Muah. ;)

I will not reply to this since I made a thread that goes in to depth criticizing your beloved UN and internationalist ideals.

http://www.debate.org...

gl

3
DeFool
Posts: 626
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9/5/2013 9:50:57 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
As a liberal and a pacifist, I find firm agreement on the key points of the OA, if not the spirit of the list. I will challenge the spirit of the argument by stating that it does not clearly express the liberal hatred for war. It is not only a last resort; this understates the level of antipathy.

Loving soldiers with bumperstickers and barbecues is an exercise in hypocrisy if it does not also include hating war. War is simply and only a political strategy; it is not also glorious, or a way to defend freedom. No freedom has been granted by war, no liberty, and no glory. War is the exact opposite of these things. In fact, no military is useful at all unless it is oppressive and dangerous.
DeFool
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9/5/2013 9:57:01 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
"War can be justified if it is part of a larger effort to save lives and liberty."

This is not true, since lives cannot be saved by killing, and liberty cannot be protected by war.

None of our prized American freedoms have been won or defended on any battlefield. Our political systems have, but we cannot allow ourselves to be fooled into thinking that these killings granted us more freedoms than our civil structures.
ironmaiden
Posts: 456
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9/17/2013 11:33:36 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
Most liberals I know are super politically correct and are all about flower power. They seem to oppose war even when it's absolutely necessary. For example, they will tell you about how World War 2 wasn't justified. I think they are all smoking crack.
Most conservatives I know don't like war, but also believe that sometimes war is a must. It's not that we support war, it's just that war is sometimes, sadly, the answer to a major problem. World War 2 was more justified than any war the US has ever fought. If it wasn't for our involvement, we might all be speaking German.
As far as being the world's policemen, I think there are some wars that were justified and some that aren't. I think that if there's a dictator killing his own people, we need to dust him. In cases like this Syria thing, it's not justified. As soon as we restore peace, they'll start killing themselves again. The whole Middle East is backstabbing and we need to stop getting involved in that stuff.
However, because of the US military's power, we can take out any dictator that exists. On the other hand, being the world's policemen has gotten us into some serious trouble.
I wish there was a simpler way of solving problems. Why can't our leaders duke it out instead of waging war and sending thousands of people off to die? They are the ones who create these problems, let them solve it.
"I know what you're thinking. 'Did he fire six shots or only five?' Well, to tell you the truth, in all this excitement I kinda lost track myself. But being that his is a .44 Magnum, the most powerful handgun in the world and will blow your head clean off, you've got to ask yourself a question. 'Do I feel lucky?' Well, do ya, punk?"
drhead
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9/17/2013 11:35:49 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 9/17/2013 11:33:36 PM, ironmaiden wrote:
Most liberals I know are super politically correct and are all about flower power. They seem to oppose war even when it's absolutely necessary. For example, they will tell you about how World War 2 wasn't justified. I think they are all smoking crack.
Most conservatives I know don't like war, but also believe that sometimes war is a must. It's not that we support war, it's just that war is sometimes, sadly, the answer to a major problem. World War 2 was more justified than any war the US has ever fought. If it wasn't for our involvement, we might all be speaking German.
As far as being the world's policemen, I think there are some wars that were justified and some that aren't. I think that if there's a dictator killing his own people, we need to dust him. In cases like this Syria thing, it's not justified. As soon as we restore peace, they'll start killing themselves again. The whole Middle East is backstabbing and we need to stop getting involved in that stuff.
However, because of the US military's power, we can take out any dictator that exists. On the other hand, being the world's policemen has gotten us into some serious trouble.
I wish there was a simpler way of solving problems. Why can't our leaders duke it out instead of waging war and sending thousands of people off to die? They are the ones who create these problems, let them solve it.

So are you done tearing down that strawman?
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ironmaiden
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9/18/2013 12:07:18 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
So are you done tearing down that strawman?

Why don't you tell me where I'm wrong then? I'm speaking simple facts.
I'm not lying when I say most liberals I know are totally opposed to war. I s**t you not, they think that fighting a war to protect our own country is wrong.
And the Middle East has always been doing what they're doing right now. Whenever we get involved, they start their civil wars and revolutions all over and it's this huge mess.
And tell me, why should our leaders send normal people like us in to fight their war?
"I know what you're thinking. 'Did he fire six shots or only five?' Well, to tell you the truth, in all this excitement I kinda lost track myself. But being that his is a .44 Magnum, the most powerful handgun in the world and will blow your head clean off, you've got to ask yourself a question. 'Do I feel lucky?' Well, do ya, punk?"
DeFool
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9/18/2013 12:24:02 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 9/18/2013 12:07:18 AM, ironmaiden wrote:
So are you done tearing down that strawman?

Why don't you tell me where I'm wrong then? I'm speaking simple facts.
I'm not lying when I say most liberals I know are totally opposed to war. I s**t you not, they think that fighting a war to protect our own country is wrong.
And the Middle East has always been doing what they're doing right now. Whenever we get involved, they start their civil wars and revolutions all over and it's this huge mess.
And tell me, why should our leaders send normal people like us in to fight their war?

I am a liberal, and am in fact, totally opposed to war. Is fighting a war to protect our own country wrong? Yes. We cannot protect our country by fighting a war - this is a logical impossibility. We protect our country with citizen activism, and only destroy it with war.

"Should we fight a war in order to prevent a militarily-enforced political takeover of our nation by a foreign government?"
-This might be justified under some circumstances.

"Should we use militarily-enforced political actions under extreme circumstances? Such as limiting the spread and use of WMD's?"
-This might be justified under some circumstances.

"Why should our leaders send normal people like us in to fight their war?"
-There are no good reasons for this that I am aware of. We should hate political leaders that are too stupid to avoid war, not love and obey them.
Noumena
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9/18/2013 7:37:40 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
Hurt durr OP learned about Just War theory. Nice coopting though.
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imabench
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9/18/2013 11:27:08 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 9/17/2013 11:33:36 PM, ironmaiden wrote:
Most liberals I know are super politically correct and are all about flower power. They seem to oppose war even when it's absolutely necessary. For example, they will tell you about how World War 2 wasn't justified. I think they are all smoking crack.

Are you retarded? Liberals almost never claim that WW2 wasnt justified....

Most conservatives I know don't like war,

Well the conservatives you know clearly dont reflect how most conservatives are.

but also believe that sometimes war is a must. It's not that we support war, it's just that war is sometimes, sadly, the answer to a major problem. World War 2 was more justified than any war the US has ever fought. If it wasn't for our involvement, we might all be speaking German.

As far as being the world's policemen, I think there are some wars that were justified and some that aren't. I think that if there's a dictator killing his own people, we need to dust him. In cases like this Syria thing, it's not justified. As soon as we restore peace, they'll start killing themselves again. The whole Middle East is backstabbing and we need to stop getting involved in that stuff.

However, because of the US military's power, we can take out any dictator that exists. On the other hand, being the world's policemen has gotten us into some serious trouble.

I wish there was a simpler way of solving problems. Why can't our leaders duke it out instead of waging war and sending thousands of people off to die?

Because waging war and sending thousands of people off to die is kind of how leaders 'duke it out'....

They are the ones who create these problems, let them solve it.
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ironmaiden
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9/18/2013 5:04:32 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
I am a liberal, and am in fact, totally opposed to war. Is fighting a war to protect our own country wrong? Yes. We cannot protect our country by fighting a war - this is a logical impossibility. We protect our country with citizen activism, and only destroy it with war.

I guess we should just let any enemy nation free to attack us on our own soil, then? I guess self defense is wrong. Man, if somebody attacks us I guess that's a good thing. If it was your way, I would never sacrifice my life for your freedom and my freedom and maybe to save your life and maybe others', because fighting a war to protect our own country is wrong.
Look, I'm conservative, and I am opposed to war too. Like I said before, people like us shouldn't be sent out to die for our leaders' problems. And if you think conservatives want there to be war, than go home and do your homework.
"I know what you're thinking. 'Did he fire six shots or only five?' Well, to tell you the truth, in all this excitement I kinda lost track myself. But being that his is a .44 Magnum, the most powerful handgun in the world and will blow your head clean off, you've got to ask yourself a question. 'Do I feel lucky?' Well, do ya, punk?"
ironmaiden
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9/18/2013 5:25:42 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
Are you retarded? Liberals almost never claim that WW2 wasnt justified....

Then the liberals I know are especially retarded. They think that the A-bomb wasn't justified, and that was the only option to ending WWII besides sending in our troops and wasting MILLIONS of lives. It's plain logic and they can't seem to understand that.

Well the conservatives you know clearly dont reflect how most conservatives are.

Really now? Because I know some pretty conservative people. Real Americans, that love their country and respect human life.

Because waging war and sending thousands of people off to die is kind of how leaders 'duke it out'....

And that's just one of thousands of reasons why our world is so backwards.
"I know what you're thinking. 'Did he fire six shots or only five?' Well, to tell you the truth, in all this excitement I kinda lost track myself. But being that his is a .44 Magnum, the most powerful handgun in the world and will blow your head clean off, you've got to ask yourself a question. 'Do I feel lucky?' Well, do ya, punk?"
donald.keller
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9/18/2013 5:25:46 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
This thread is full of so many stereotypes I almost cried.
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DeFool
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9/18/2013 5:59:00 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 9/18/2013 5:04:32 PM, ironmaiden wrote:
I am a liberal, and am in fact, totally opposed to war. Is fighting a war to protect our own country wrong? Yes. We cannot protect our country by fighting a war - this is a logical impossibility. We protect our country with citizen activism, and only destroy it with war.

I guess we should just let any enemy nation free to attack us on our own soil, then? I guess self defense is wrong. Man, if somebody attacks us I guess that's a good thing. If it was your way, I would never sacrifice my life for your freedom and my freedom and maybe to save your life and maybe others', because fighting a war to protect our own country is wrong.

You may be familiar with the "False Choice" and "Polemic" fallacies. This type of logical error suggests that an unreasonable either/or scenario where a favored position is set against a fanciful choice.

For example, I am arguing that war should be a last resort in every circumstance. You respond to this with a passive aggressive despair that "we should just let any enemy nation free to attack us on our own soil, then? I guess self defense is wrong. Man, if somebody attacks us ...." etc.

I assure you, there are other choices less than unnecessary political killings, more than suicide.

Look, I'm conservative, and I am opposed to war too. Like I said before, people like us shouldn't be sent out to die for our leaders' problems. And if you think conservatives want there to be war, than go home and do your homework.

I have made no such claim, and am unaware of any here that has. Perhaps we can discuss the omnipresent "Strawman" fallacy.

But here is the main point. However we both arrived at this position, we are in happy agreement. We both hate war. I cannot see that this is a bad value to share.
ironmaiden
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9/18/2013 9:32:52 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
But here is the main point. However we both arrived at this position, we are in happy agreement. We both hate war. I cannot see that this is a bad value to share.

That's true. Don't get me wrong, it's depressing to think that humanity has succumbed to young men killing each other and dropping A-bombs to "solve" problems.
"I know what you're thinking. 'Did he fire six shots or only five?' Well, to tell you the truth, in all this excitement I kinda lost track myself. But being that his is a .44 Magnum, the most powerful handgun in the world and will blow your head clean off, you've got to ask yourself a question. 'Do I feel lucky?' Well, do ya, punk?"
DeFool
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9/19/2013 12:13:22 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 9/18/2013 9:32:52 PM, ironmaiden wrote:
But here is the main point. However we both arrived at this position, we are in happy agreement. We both hate war. I cannot see that this is a bad value to share.

That's true. Don't get me wrong, it's depressing to think that humanity has succumbed to young men killing each other and dropping A-bombs to "solve" problems.

Possibly relevant, playful quote:

"as I lay there gazing at the sky
My body's numb and my throat is dry
And as I lay forgotten and alone
Without a tear, I draw my parting groan"

I am happy to see the war billionaires challenged by both the right and the left in the US.
ironmaiden
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9/19/2013 5:40:06 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
Possibly relevant, playful quote:

"as I lay there gazing at the sky
My body's numb and my throat is dry
And as I lay forgotten and alone
Without a tear, I draw my parting groan"

I am happy to see the war billionaires challenged by both the right and the left in the US.

Alright, there we go! We are in agreement now!
"I know what you're thinking. 'Did he fire six shots or only five?' Well, to tell you the truth, in all this excitement I kinda lost track myself. But being that his is a .44 Magnum, the most powerful handgun in the world and will blow your head clean off, you've got to ask yourself a question. 'Do I feel lucky?' Well, do ya, punk?"