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Celtic Ireland was AnCap for 1000 years

Wallstreetatheist
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9/6/2013 10:39:24 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
Celtic Ireland (650-1650)
In Celtic Irish society, the courts and the law were largely libertarian, and operated within a purely state-less manner. This society persisted in this libertarian path for roughly a thousand years until its brutal conquest by England in the seventeenth century. And, in contrast to many similarly functioning primitive tribes (such as the Ibos in West Africa, and many European tribes), preconquest Ireland was not in any sense a "primitive" society: it was a highly complex society that was, for centuries, the most advanced, most scholarly, and most civilized in all of Western Europe. A leading authority on ancient Irish law wrote, "There was no legislature, no bailiffs, no police, no public enforcement of justice... There was no trace of State-administered justice."

1. "They certainly had access to both gold and silver from native sources; they traveled abroad and knew the monetary usages of their neighbors; and the metalworkers capable of creating such masterpieces as the Tara brooch or the Ardagh chalice were certainly capable of striking coins...The essentially libertarian nature of Irish society can also be seen in the fact that the native Irish never issued coinage."
http://mises.org...

2. "In addition, cities and walled towns were brought to Ireland by invaders; the early Irish people did not have these places of mass congregation that supported cities and marketplaces." http://tinyurl.com...

3. PROPERTY RIGHTS IN CELTIC IRISH LAW
http://mises.org...

4. "it was a highly complex society that was, for centuries, the most advanced, most scholarly, and most civilized in all of Western Europe." http://mises.org...

5. "While a comprehensive survey of the Irish law of property and property rights cannot yet be written, we can already see that the idea of private ownership permeates those aspects of the law which have been subjected to recent study. The Irish frankly and openly used assessments of property as the criterion for determining a man"s social and legal status, the extent of his capacity to act as a surety or compurgator, and to fix the amounts of compensation due him as a victim of crime or any kind of injury..." http://tinyurl.com...

6. "in short, a society of virtual "free market anarchism""
http://tinyurl.com...
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AnDoctuir
Posts: 11,060
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9/6/2013 11:43:10 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 9/6/2013 11:36:00 AM, AnDoctuir wrote:
Ireland is the greenest planet on Earth, dude. Funny, though.

Also, this: http://www.debate.org...

Err... country! sdavio has me thinking about aliens - you guys r troll!
Beverlee
Posts: 721
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9/7/2013 4:16:11 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 9/6/2013 10:39:24 AM, Wallstreetatheist wrote:
Celtic Ireland (650-1650)
In Celtic Irish society, the courts and the law were largely libertarian, and operated within a purely state-less manner. This society persisted in this libertarian path for roughly a thousand years until its brutal conquest by England in the seventeenth century. And, in contrast to many similarly functioning primitive tribes (such as the Ibos in West Africa, and many European tribes), preconquest Ireland was not in any sense a "primitive" society: it was a highly complex society that was, for centuries, the most advanced, most scholarly, and most civilized in all of Western Europe. A leading authority on ancient Irish law wrote, "There was no legislature, no bailiffs, no police, no public enforcement of justice... There was no trace of State-administered justice."

1. "They certainly had access to both gold and silver from native sources; they traveled abroad and knew the monetary usages of their neighbors; and the metalworkers capable of creating such masterpieces as the Tara brooch or the Ardagh chalice were certainly capable of striking coins...The essentially libertarian nature of Irish society can also be seen in the fact that the native Irish never issued coinage."
http://mises.org...

2. "In addition, cities and walled towns were brought to Ireland by invaders; the early Irish people did not have these places of mass congregation that supported cities and marketplaces." http://tinyurl.com...

3. PROPERTY RIGHTS IN CELTIC IRISH LAW
http://mises.org...

4. "it was a highly complex society that was, for centuries, the most advanced, most scholarly, and most civilized in all of Western Europe." http://mises.org...

5. "While a comprehensive survey of the Irish law of property and property rights cannot yet be written, we can already see that the idea of private ownership permeates those aspects of the law which have been subjected to recent study. The Irish frankly and openly used assessments of property as the criterion for determining a man"s social and legal status, the extent of his capacity to act as a surety or compurgator, and to fix the amounts of compensation due him as a victim of crime or any kind of injury..." http://tinyurl.com...

6. "in short, a society of virtual "free market anarchism""
http://tinyurl.com...

Why didn't it work out?
ClassicRobert
Posts: 2,487
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9/7/2013 4:25:01 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 9/6/2013 10:39:24 AM, Wallstreetatheist wrote:
Celtic Ireland (650-1650)
In Celtic Irish society, the courts and the law were largely libertarian, and operated within a purely state-less manner. This society persisted in this libertarian path for roughly a thousand years until its brutal conquest by England in the seventeenth century. And, in contrast to many similarly functioning primitive tribes (such as the Ibos in West Africa, and many European tribes), preconquest Ireland was not in any sense a "primitive" society: it was a highly complex society that was, for centuries, the most advanced, most scholarly, and most civilized in all of Western Europe. A leading authority on ancient Irish law wrote, "There was no legislature, no bailiffs, no police, no public enforcement of justice... There was no trace of State-administered justice."

1. "They certainly had access to both gold and silver from native sources; they traveled abroad and knew the monetary usages of their neighbors; and the metalworkers capable of creating such masterpieces as the Tara brooch or the Ardagh chalice were certainly capable of striking coins...The essentially libertarian nature of Irish society can also be seen in the fact that the native Irish never issued coinage."
http://mises.org...

2. "In addition, cities and walled towns were brought to Ireland by invaders; the early Irish people did not have these places of mass congregation that supported cities and marketplaces." http://tinyurl.com...

3. PROPERTY RIGHTS IN CELTIC IRISH LAW
http://mises.org...

4. "it was a highly complex society that was, for centuries, the most advanced, most scholarly, and most civilized in all of Western Europe." http://mises.org...

5. "While a comprehensive survey of the Irish law of property and property rights cannot yet be written, we can already see that the idea of private ownership permeates those aspects of the law which have been subjected to recent study. The Irish frankly and openly used assessments of property as the criterion for determining a man"s social and legal status, the extent of his capacity to act as a surety or compurgator, and to fix the amounts of compensation due him as a victim of crime or any kind of injury..." http://tinyurl.com...

6. "in short, a society of virtual "free market anarchism""
http://tinyurl.com...

I'm more curious about mindset here. I mean, if it worked back then, that's great, but there wasn't exactly much of a state predicating that. We now live in a time when the presence of a state is standard, and we're in a mindset of needing the state. If we were to become ancap, it would require generations of removing state influence and switching people's mindset to that of independence from government in order for it to work.
Debate me: Economic decision theory should be adjusted to include higher-order preferences for non-normative purposes http://www.debate.org...

Do you really believe that? Or not? If you believe it, you should man up and defend it in a debate. -RoyLatham

My Pet Fish is such a Douche- NiamC

It's an app to meet friends and stuff, sort of like an adult club penguin- Thett3, describing Tinder
ClassicRobert
Posts: 2,487
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9/7/2013 4:26:12 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 9/7/2013 4:16:11 PM, Beverlee wrote:
At 9/6/2013 10:39:24 AM, Wallstreetatheist wrote:
Celtic Ireland (650-1650)
In Celtic Irish society, the courts and the law were largely libertarian, and operated within a purely state-less manner. This society persisted in this libertarian path for roughly a thousand years until its brutal conquest by England in the seventeenth century. And, in contrast to many similarly functioning primitive tribes (such as the Ibos in West Africa, and many European tribes), preconquest Ireland was not in any sense a "primitive" society: it was a highly complex society that was, for centuries, the most advanced, most scholarly, and most civilized in all of Western Europe. A leading authority on ancient Irish law wrote, "There was no legislature, no bailiffs, no police, no public enforcement of justice... There was no trace of State-administered justice."

1. "They certainly had access to both gold and silver from native sources; they traveled abroad and knew the monetary usages of their neighbors; and the metalworkers capable of creating such masterpieces as the Tara brooch or the Ardagh chalice were certainly capable of striking coins...The essentially libertarian nature of Irish society can also be seen in the fact that the native Irish never issued coinage."
http://mises.org...

2. "In addition, cities and walled towns were brought to Ireland by invaders; the early Irish people did not have these places of mass congregation that supported cities and marketplaces." http://tinyurl.com...

3. PROPERTY RIGHTS IN CELTIC IRISH LAW
http://mises.org...

4. "it was a highly complex society that was, for centuries, the most advanced, most scholarly, and most civilized in all of Western Europe." http://mises.org...

5. "While a comprehensive survey of the Irish law of property and property rights cannot yet be written, we can already see that the idea of private ownership permeates those aspects of the law which have been subjected to recent study. The Irish frankly and openly used assessments of property as the criterion for determining a man"s social and legal status, the extent of his capacity to act as a surety or compurgator, and to fix the amounts of compensation due him as a victim of crime or any kind of injury..." http://tinyurl.com...

6. "in short, a society of virtual "free market anarchism""
http://tinyurl.com...

Why didn't it work out?

The information he is citing is claiming that British conquest ended it, rather than its own fallibility.
Debate me: Economic decision theory should be adjusted to include higher-order preferences for non-normative purposes http://www.debate.org...

Do you really believe that? Or not? If you believe it, you should man up and defend it in a debate. -RoyLatham

My Pet Fish is such a Douche- NiamC

It's an app to meet friends and stuff, sort of like an adult club penguin- Thett3, describing Tinder
ConservativeAmerican
Posts: 1,676
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9/7/2013 4:37:03 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 9/7/2013 4:26:12 PM, ClassicRobert wrote:
At 9/7/2013 4:16:11 PM, Beverlee wrote:
At 9/6/2013 10:39:24 AM, Wallstreetatheist wrote:
Celtic Ireland (650-1650)
In Celtic Irish society, the courts and the law were largely libertarian, and operated within a purely state-less manner. This society persisted in this libertarian path for roughly a thousand years until its brutal conquest by England in the seventeenth century. And, in contrast to many similarly functioning primitive tribes (such as the Ibos in West Africa, and many European tribes), preconquest Ireland was not in any sense a "primitive" society: it was a highly complex society that was, for centuries, the most advanced, most scholarly, and most civilized in all of Western Europe. A leading authority on ancient Irish law wrote, "There was no legislature, no bailiffs, no police, no public enforcement of justice... There was no trace of State-administered justice."

1. "They certainly had access to both gold and silver from native sources; they traveled abroad and knew the monetary usages of their neighbors; and the metalworkers capable of creating such masterpieces as the Tara brooch or the Ardagh chalice were certainly capable of striking coins...The essentially libertarian nature of Irish society can also be seen in the fact that the native Irish never issued coinage."
http://mises.org...

2. "In addition, cities and walled towns were brought to Ireland by invaders; the early Irish people did not have these places of mass congregation that supported cities and marketplaces." http://tinyurl.com...

3. PROPERTY RIGHTS IN CELTIC IRISH LAW
http://mises.org...

4. "it was a highly complex society that was, for centuries, the most advanced, most scholarly, and most civilized in all of Western Europe." http://mises.org...

5. "While a comprehensive survey of the Irish law of property and property rights cannot yet be written, we can already see that the idea of private ownership permeates those aspects of the law which have been subjected to recent study. The Irish frankly and openly used assessments of property as the criterion for determining a man"s social and legal status, the extent of his capacity to act as a surety or compurgator, and to fix the amounts of compensation due him as a victim of crime or any kind of injury..." http://tinyurl.com...

6. "in short, a society of virtual "free market anarchism""
http://tinyurl.com...

Why didn't it work out?

The information he is citing is claiming that British conquest ended it, rather than its own fallibility.

British conquest did end it.
ClassicRobert
Posts: 2,487
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9/7/2013 5:01:09 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 9/7/2013 4:37:03 PM, ConservativeAmerican wrote:
At 9/7/2013 4:26:12 PM, ClassicRobert wrote:
At 9/7/2013 4:16:11 PM, Beverlee wrote:
At 9/6/2013 10:39:24 AM, Wallstreetatheist wrote:
Celtic Ireland (650-1650)
In Celtic Irish society, the courts and the law were largely libertarian, and operated within a purely state-less manner. This society persisted in this libertarian path for roughly a thousand years until its brutal conquest by England in the seventeenth century. And, in contrast to many similarly functioning primitive tribes (such as the Ibos in West Africa, and many European tribes), preconquest Ireland was not in any sense a "primitive" society: it was a highly complex society that was, for centuries, the most advanced, most scholarly, and most civilized in all of Western Europe. A leading authority on ancient Irish law wrote, "There was no legislature, no bailiffs, no police, no public enforcement of justice... There was no trace of State-administered justice."

1. "They certainly had access to both gold and silver from native sources; they traveled abroad and knew the monetary usages of their neighbors; and the metalworkers capable of creating such masterpieces as the Tara brooch or the Ardagh chalice were certainly capable of striking coins...The essentially libertarian nature of Irish society can also be seen in the fact that the native Irish never issued coinage."
http://mises.org...

2. "In addition, cities and walled towns were brought to Ireland by invaders; the early Irish people did not have these places of mass congregation that supported cities and marketplaces." http://tinyurl.com...

3. PROPERTY RIGHTS IN CELTIC IRISH LAW
http://mises.org...

4. "it was a highly complex society that was, for centuries, the most advanced, most scholarly, and most civilized in all of Western Europe." http://mises.org...

5. "While a comprehensive survey of the Irish law of property and property rights cannot yet be written, we can already see that the idea of private ownership permeates those aspects of the law which have been subjected to recent study. The Irish frankly and openly used assessments of property as the criterion for determining a man"s social and legal status, the extent of his capacity to act as a surety or compurgator, and to fix the amounts of compensation due him as a victim of crime or any kind of injury..." http://tinyurl.com...

6. "in short, a society of virtual "free market anarchism""
http://tinyurl.com...

Why didn't it work out?

The information he is citing is claiming that British conquest ended it, rather than its own fallibility.

British conquest did end it.

I understand that. She asked why it didn't work out, implying she expected fallibility to be the cause. I was clearing that up.
Debate me: Economic decision theory should be adjusted to include higher-order preferences for non-normative purposes http://www.debate.org...

Do you really believe that? Or not? If you believe it, you should man up and defend it in a debate. -RoyLatham

My Pet Fish is such a Douche- NiamC

It's an app to meet friends and stuff, sort of like an adult club penguin- Thett3, describing Tinder
ConservativeAmerican
Posts: 1,676
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9/7/2013 5:22:25 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 9/7/2013 5:01:09 PM, ClassicRobert wrote:
At 9/7/2013 4:37:03 PM, ConservativeAmerican wrote:
At 9/7/2013 4:26:12 PM, ClassicRobert wrote:
At 9/7/2013 4:16:11 PM, Beverlee wrote:
At 9/6/2013 10:39:24 AM, Wallstreetatheist wrote:
Celtic Ireland (650-1650)
In Celtic Irish society, the courts and the law were largely libertarian, and operated within a purely state-less manner. This society persisted in this libertarian path for roughly a thousand years until its brutal conquest by England in the seventeenth century. And, in contrast to many similarly functioning primitive tribes (such as the Ibos in West Africa, and many European tribes), preconquest Ireland was not in any sense a "primitive" society: it was a highly complex society that was, for centuries, the most advanced, most scholarly, and most civilized in all of Western Europe. A leading authority on ancient Irish law wrote, "There was no legislature, no bailiffs, no police, no public enforcement of justice... There was no trace of State-administered justice."

1. "They certainly had access to both gold and silver from native sources; they traveled abroad and knew the monetary usages of their neighbors; and the metalworkers capable of creating such masterpieces as the Tara brooch or the Ardagh chalice were certainly capable of striking coins...The essentially libertarian nature of Irish society can also be seen in the fact that the native Irish never issued coinage."
http://mises.org...

2. "In addition, cities and walled towns were brought to Ireland by invaders; the early Irish people did not have these places of mass congregation that supported cities and marketplaces." http://tinyurl.com...

3. PROPERTY RIGHTS IN CELTIC IRISH LAW
http://mises.org...

4. "it was a highly complex society that was, for centuries, the most advanced, most scholarly, and most civilized in all of Western Europe." http://mises.org...

5. "While a comprehensive survey of the Irish law of property and property rights cannot yet be written, we can already see that the idea of private ownership permeates those aspects of the law which have been subjected to recent study. The Irish frankly and openly used assessments of property as the criterion for determining a man"s social and legal status, the extent of his capacity to act as a surety or compurgator, and to fix the amounts of compensation due him as a victim of crime or any kind of injury..." http://tinyurl.com...

6. "in short, a society of virtual "free market anarchism""
http://tinyurl.com...

Why didn't it work out?

The information he is citing is claiming that British conquest ended it, rather than its own fallibility.

British conquest did end it.

I understand that. She asked why it didn't work out, implying she expected fallibility to be the cause. I was clearing that up.

Oh. mkay
Beverlee
Posts: 721
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9/8/2013 12:04:07 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 9/7/2013 5:22:25 PM, ConservativeAmerican wrote:
At 9/7/2013 5:01:09 PM, ClassicRobert wrote:
At 9/7/2013 4:37:03 PM, ConservativeAmerican wrote:
At 9/7/2013 4:26:12 PM, ClassicRobert wrote:
At 9/7/2013 4:16:11 PM, Beverlee wrote:
At 9/6/2013 10:39:24 AM, Wallstreetatheist wrote:
Celtic Ireland (650-1650)
In Celtic Irish society, the courts and the law were largely libertarian, and operated within a purely state-less manner. This society persisted in this libertarian path for roughly a thousand years until its brutal conquest by England in the seventeenth century. And, in contrast to many similarly functioning primitive tribes (such as the Ibos in West Africa, and many European tribes), preconquest Ireland was not in any sense a "primitive" society: it was a highly complex society that was, for centuries, the most advanced, most scholarly, and most civilized in all of Western Europe. A leading authority on ancient Irish law wrote, "There was no legislature, no bailiffs, no police, no public enforcement of justice... There was no trace of State-administered justice."

1. "They certainly had access to both gold and silver from native sources; they traveled abroad and knew the monetary usages of their neighbors; and the metalworkers capable of creating such masterpieces as the Tara brooch or the Ardagh chalice were certainly capable of striking coins...The essentially libertarian nature of Irish society can also be seen in the fact that the native Irish never issued coinage."
http://mises.org...

2. "In addition, cities and walled towns were brought to Ireland by invaders; the early Irish people did not have these places of mass congregation that supported cities and marketplaces." http://tinyurl.com...

3. PROPERTY RIGHTS IN CELTIC IRISH LAW
http://mises.org...

4. "it was a highly complex society that was, for centuries, the most advanced, most scholarly, and most civilized in all of Western Europe." http://mises.org...

5. "While a comprehensive survey of the Irish law of property and property rights cannot yet be written, we can already see that the idea of private ownership permeates those aspects of the law which have been subjected to recent study. The Irish frankly and openly used assessments of property as the criterion for determining a man"s social and legal status, the extent of his capacity to act as a surety or compurgator, and to fix the amounts of compensation due him as a victim of crime or any kind of injury..." http://tinyurl.com...

6. "in short, a society of virtual "free market anarchism""
http://tinyurl.com...

Why didn't it work out?

The information he is citing is claiming that British conquest ended it, rather than its own fallibility.

British conquest did end it.

I understand that. She asked why it didn't work out, implying she expected fallibility to be the cause. I was clearing that up.

Oh. mkay

I was just asking what changed, not really implying, just asking. But if I WERE to imply something, I would ask if it stopped working there because a better system developed somehow. Maybe something that could support a better economy, political system, or a more effective military, or something. But I didn't... lol

But, ok. I'm going along... these anarcho celts were replaced by the Romans?
proglib
Posts: 391
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9/8/2013 8:31:22 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 9/6/2013 10:52:09 AM, Wallstreetatheist wrote:
More important than any other sh!t on this forum.

I believe that is spelled sh!te. :)
"I would remind you that extremism in the defense of liberty is no vice.* And let me remind you also that moderation in the pursuit of justice is no virtue." Barry Goldwater
*Except in a democracy it might lose you an election.

http://unitedwegovern.org...
Such
Posts: 1,110
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9/8/2013 11:55:59 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 9/7/2013 4:37:03 PM, ConservativeAmerican wrote:
At 9/7/2013 4:26:12 PM, ClassicRobert wrote:
At 9/7/2013 4:16:11 PM, Beverlee wrote:
At 9/6/2013 10:39:24 AM, Wallstreetatheist wrote:
Celtic Ireland (650-1650)
In Celtic Irish society, the courts and the law were largely libertarian, and operated within a purely state-less manner. This society persisted in this libertarian path for roughly a thousand years until its brutal conquest by England in the seventeenth century. And, in contrast to many similarly functioning primitive tribes (such as the Ibos in West Africa, and many European tribes), preconquest Ireland was not in any sense a "primitive" society: it was a highly complex society that was, for centuries, the most advanced, most scholarly, and most civilized in all of Western Europe. A leading authority on ancient Irish law wrote, "There was no legislature, no bailiffs, no police, no public enforcement of justice... There was no trace of State-administered justice."

1. "They certainly had access to both gold and silver from native sources; they traveled abroad and knew the monetary usages of their neighbors; and the metalworkers capable of creating such masterpieces as the Tara brooch or the Ardagh chalice were certainly capable of striking coins...The essentially libertarian nature of Irish society can also be seen in the fact that the native Irish never issued coinage."
http://mises.org...

2. "In addition, cities and walled towns were brought to Ireland by invaders; the early Irish people did not have these places of mass congregation that supported cities and marketplaces." http://tinyurl.com...

3. PROPERTY RIGHTS IN CELTIC IRISH LAW
http://mises.org...

4. "it was a highly complex society that was, for centuries, the most advanced, most scholarly, and most civilized in all of Western Europe." http://mises.org...

5. "While a comprehensive survey of the Irish law of property and property rights cannot yet be written, we can already see that the idea of private ownership permeates those aspects of the law which have been subjected to recent study. The Irish frankly and openly used assessments of property as the criterion for determining a man"s social and legal status, the extent of his capacity to act as a surety or compurgator, and to fix the amounts of compensation due him as a victim of crime or any kind of injury..." http://tinyurl.com...

6. "in short, a society of virtual "free market anarchism""
http://tinyurl.com...

Why didn't it work out?

The information he is citing is claiming that British conquest ended it, rather than its own fallibility.

British conquest did end it.

That is it not working out.

That has always been my argument against something like anarcho-capitalism.

How could the society protect itself from others with a military who are greedy enough to simply take things away?

I mean, if it weren't anarcho-capitalist enough to at least have some sort of military, then perhaps Britain would have never conquered Ireland and destroyed its culture...?
bossyburrito
Posts: 14,075
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9/8/2013 12:00:50 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 9/8/2013 11:55:59 AM, Such wrote:
At 9/7/2013 4:37:03 PM, ConservativeAmerican wrote:
At 9/7/2013 4:26:12 PM, ClassicRobert wrote:
At 9/7/2013 4:16:11 PM, Beverlee wrote:
At 9/6/2013 10:39:24 AM, Wallstreetatheist wrote:
Celtic Ireland (650-1650)
In Celtic Irish society, the courts and the law were largely libertarian, and operated within a purely state-less manner. This society persisted in this libertarian path for roughly a thousand years until its brutal conquest by England in the seventeenth century. And, in contrast to many similarly functioning primitive tribes (such as the Ibos in West Africa, and many European tribes), preconquest Ireland was not in any sense a "primitive" society: it was a highly complex society that was, for centuries, the most advanced, most scholarly, and most civilized in all of Western Europe. A leading authority on ancient Irish law wrote, "There was no legislature, no bailiffs, no police, no public enforcement of justice... There was no trace of State-administered justice."

1. "They certainly had access to both gold and silver from native sources; they traveled abroad and knew the monetary usages of their neighbors; and the metalworkers capable of creating such masterpieces as the Tara brooch or the Ardagh chalice were certainly capable of striking coins...The essentially libertarian nature of Irish society can also be seen in the fact that the native Irish never issued coinage."
http://mises.org...

2. "In addition, cities and walled towns were brought to Ireland by invaders; the early Irish people did not have these places of mass congregation that supported cities and marketplaces." http://tinyurl.com...

3. PROPERTY RIGHTS IN CELTIC IRISH LAW
http://mises.org...

4. "it was a highly complex society that was, for centuries, the most advanced, most scholarly, and most civilized in all of Western Europe." http://mises.org...

5. "While a comprehensive survey of the Irish law of property and property rights cannot yet be written, we can already see that the idea of private ownership permeates those aspects of the law which have been subjected to recent study. The Irish frankly and openly used assessments of property as the criterion for determining a man"s social and legal status, the extent of his capacity to act as a surety or compurgator, and to fix the amounts of compensation due him as a victim of crime or any kind of injury..." http://tinyurl.com...

6. "in short, a society of virtual "free market anarchism""
http://tinyurl.com...

Why didn't it work out?

The information he is citing is claiming that British conquest ended it, rather than its own fallibility.

British conquest did end it.

That is it not working out.

That has always been my argument against something like anarcho-capitalism.

How could the society protect itself from others with a military who are greedy enough to simply take things away?

I mean, if it weren't anarcho-capitalist enough to at least have some sort of military, then perhaps Britain would have never conquered Ireland and destroyed its culture...?

They chose not to have a military. They made a bad decision. That doesn't mean that all an- cap societies will make that mistake.
#UnbanTheMadman

"Some will sell their dreams for small desires
Or lose the race to rats
Get caught in ticking traps
And start to dream of somewhere
To relax their restless flight
Somewhere out of a memory of lighted streets on quiet nights..."

~ Rush
Such
Posts: 1,110
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9/8/2013 12:04:52 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 9/8/2013 12:00:50 PM, bossyburrito wrote:
At 9/8/2013 11:55:59 AM, Such wrote:
At 9/7/2013 4:37:03 PM, ConservativeAmerican wrote:
At 9/7/2013 4:26:12 PM, ClassicRobert wrote:
At 9/7/2013 4:16:11 PM, Beverlee wrote:
At 9/6/2013 10:39:24 AM, Wallstreetatheist wrote:
Celtic Ireland (650-1650)
In Celtic Irish society, the courts and the law were largely libertarian, and operated within a purely state-less manner. This society persisted in this libertarian path for roughly a thousand years until its brutal conquest by England in the seventeenth century. And, in contrast to many similarly functioning primitive tribes (such as the Ibos in West Africa, and many European tribes), preconquest Ireland was not in any sense a "primitive" society: it was a highly complex society that was, for centuries, the most advanced, most scholarly, and most civilized in all of Western Europe. A leading authority on ancient Irish law wrote, "There was no legislature, no bailiffs, no police, no public enforcement of justice... There was no trace of State-administered justice."

1. "They certainly had access to both gold and silver from native sources; they traveled abroad and knew the monetary usages of their neighbors; and the metalworkers capable of creating such masterpieces as the Tara brooch or the Ardagh chalice were certainly capable of striking coins...The essentially libertarian nature of Irish society can also be seen in the fact that the native Irish never issued coinage."
http://mises.org...

2. "In addition, cities and walled towns were brought to Ireland by invaders; the early Irish people did not have these places of mass congregation that supported cities and marketplaces." http://tinyurl.com...

3. PROPERTY RIGHTS IN CELTIC IRISH LAW
http://mises.org...

4. "it was a highly complex society that was, for centuries, the most advanced, most scholarly, and most civilized in all of Western Europe." http://mises.org...

5. "While a comprehensive survey of the Irish law of property and property rights cannot yet be written, we can already see that the idea of private ownership permeates those aspects of the law which have been subjected to recent study. The Irish frankly and openly used assessments of property as the criterion for determining a man"s social and legal status, the extent of his capacity to act as a surety or compurgator, and to fix the amounts of compensation due him as a victim of crime or any kind of injury..." http://tinyurl.com...

6. "in short, a society of virtual "free market anarchism""
http://tinyurl.com...

Why didn't it work out?

The information he is citing is claiming that British conquest ended it, rather than its own fallibility.

British conquest did end it.

That is it not working out.

That has always been my argument against something like anarcho-capitalism.

How could the society protect itself from others with a military who are greedy enough to simply take things away?

I mean, if it weren't anarcho-capitalist enough to at least have some sort of military, then perhaps Britain would have never conquered Ireland and destroyed its culture...?

They chose not to have a military. They made a bad decision. That doesn't mean that all an- cap societies will make that mistake.

That doesn't make much sense, though, now does it? The introduction of a military is a step away from anarchy. In reality, it isn't anarchy at all, anymore.

As far as being libertarian, perhaps it could be, but there is the question of how that military can maintain, subsist, and from where t would draw funds for such maintenance with sustenance? I'm pretty sure a military is the central cause behind a government in general, with state necessities (law enforcement, utilities, etc.) generated later as needed.

I mean, I'm pretty sure there was no such need for utilities back then, neither was there a need for law enforcement in such small populations. When you're dealing with millions to hundreds of millions of people, it suddenly becomes very necessary.
Such
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9/8/2013 12:06:52 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
This is all not to mention that the technological advancement (which wasn't happening to nearly the degree back then as it is now) requires the participation of several countries and their respective development, which requires a central means to conduct trade (money) in the absence of a generally valuable resource (since all countries have different resources in different proportions, so that a resource would fluctuate in value too dramatically in some countries, and be absent all together in others).
Such
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9/8/2013 12:08:08 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
Oh, oh, and might I add that all societies were once anarcho-capitalist (money and militaries did not always exist) until there came a need for development and evolution, resulting in the characteristics one sees in developed countries today.
proglib
Posts: 391
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9/8/2013 12:11:51 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 9/8/2013 12:00:50 PM, bossyburrito wrote:
At 9/8/2013 11:55:59 AM, Such wrote:
At 9/7/2013 4:37:03 PM, ConservativeAmerican wrote:
At 9/7/2013 4:26:12 PM, ClassicRobert wrote:
At 9/7/2013 4:16:11 PM, Beverlee wrote:
At 9/6/2013 10:39:24 AM, Wallstreetatheist wrote:
Celtic Ireland (650-1650)
In Celtic Irish society, the courts and the law were largely libertarian, and operated within a purely state-less manner. This society persisted in this libertarian path for roughly a thousand years until its brutal conquest by England in the seventeenth century. And, in contrast to many similarly functioning primitive tribes (such as the Ibos in West Africa, and many European tribes), preconquest Ireland was not in any sense a "primitive" society: it was a highly complex society that was, for centuries, the most advanced, most scholarly, and most civilized in all of Western Europe. A leading authority on ancient Irish law wrote, "There was no legislature, no bailiffs, no police, no public enforcement of justice... There was no trace of State-administered justice."

1. "They certainly had access to both gold and silver from native sources; they traveled abroad and knew the monetary usages of their neighbors; and the metalworkers capable of creating such masterpieces as the Tara brooch or the Ardagh chalice were certainly capable of striking coins...The essentially libertarian nature of Irish society can also be seen in the fact that the native Irish never issued coinage."
http://mises.org...

2. "In addition, cities and walled towns were brought to Ireland by invaders; the early Irish people did not have these places of mass congregation that supported cities and marketplaces." http://tinyurl.com...

3. PROPERTY RIGHTS IN CELTIC IRISH LAW
http://mises.org...

4. "it was a highly complex society that was, for centuries, the most advanced, most scholarly, and most civilized in all of Western Europe." http://mises.org...

5. "While a comprehensive survey of the Irish law of property and property rights cannot yet be written, we can already see that the idea of private ownership permeates those aspects of the law which have been subjected to recent study. The Irish frankly and openly used assessments of property as the criterion for determining a man"s social and legal status, the extent of his capacity to act as a surety or compurgator, and to fix the amounts of compensation due him as a victim of crime or any kind of injury..." http://tinyurl.com...

6. "in short, a society of virtual "free market anarchism""
http://tinyurl.com...

Why didn't it work out?

The information he is citing is claiming that British conquest ended it, rather than its own fallibility.

British conquest did end it.

That is it not working out.

That has always been my argument against something like anarcho-capitalism.

How could the society protect itself from others with a military who are greedy enough to simply take things away?

I mean, if it weren't anarcho-capitalist enough to at least have some sort of military, then perhaps Britain would have never conquered Ireland and destroyed its culture...?

They chose not to have a military. They made a bad decision. That doesn't mean that all an- cap societies will make that mistake.

Excellent discussion.

Pretty good answer at the end, also bossyburrito. [May I call you "bossy?"]

Next question, for me, and it isn't meant rhetorically:

* How does an ancap society create a military to compete with state-sponsored militaries, which one would assume are much more organized?

In the spirit of my avatar, I will try to answer my own question a bit [since I really haven't thought of this much in a while]:

* perhaps the internet and crowd funding give us a hint on how to organize at a very sophisticated level without coercion.
"I would remind you that extremism in the defense of liberty is no vice.* And let me remind you also that moderation in the pursuit of justice is no virtue." Barry Goldwater
*Except in a democracy it might lose you an election.

http://unitedwegovern.org...
ClassicRobert
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9/8/2013 12:53:07 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 9/8/2013 12:11:51 PM, proglib wrote:

Excellent discussion.

Pretty good answer at the end, also bossyburrito. [May I call you "bossy?"]

Next question, for me, and it isn't meant rhetorically:

* How does an ancap society create a military to compete with state-sponsored militaries, which one would assume are much more organized?

In the spirit of my avatar, I will try to answer my own question a bit [since I really haven't thought of this much in a while]:

* perhaps the internet and crowd funding give us a hint on how to organize at a very sophisticated level without coercion.

In my eyes, it doesn't seem plausible that an ancap military would be able to compete with a state-sponsored military. This is because a functioning military has a massive positive externality, which leads to the free-rider effect. After all, if you benefit from someone else's input, why should you pay into it as well (this also is responding to the crowd funding solution)? So really, the only way this could be effective is if a wealthy elite decided to purchase military might, which would mark the transition from an ancap society to a plutocracy.
Debate me: Economic decision theory should be adjusted to include higher-order preferences for non-normative purposes http://www.debate.org...

Do you really believe that? Or not? If you believe it, you should man up and defend it in a debate. -RoyLatham

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It's an app to meet friends and stuff, sort of like an adult club penguin- Thett3, describing Tinder
DeFool
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9/8/2013 1:28:26 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
If a military is not oppressive, it is not effective. Anarchist regions cannot remain definable as "anarchistic" if large measures of that region are militarized.

This thread argues (inadvertently) that even prehistoric British with slingshots and Romans with sandals can erase an An-Cap civilization. Also, that those who once lived in such conditions were not eager to return to them.

Let us look to the An-Cap region of Western Sahara for a more modern and relevant specimen for study.
wrichcirw
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9/8/2013 2:30:38 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 9/7/2013 4:26:12 PM, ClassicRobert wrote:
At 9/7/2013 4:16:11 PM, Beverlee wrote:

Why didn't it work out?

The information he is citing is claiming that British conquest ended it, rather than its own fallibility.

That it was susceptible to conquest is the limiting factor in any and all discussion regarding "practical" anarchism. That is why we have governments and militaries, to prevent this precise outcome.

That a civilization cannot defend against invasion is supreme fallibility. It is making the statement that existence is not necessary for existence, which is absolutely absurd.

Also note that Celtic Ireland is not known for any major civilizational achievements, no leading technological advancements, nothing but this phantom fantasy of alleged "AnCap". The same is true of that other AnCap claim of Catalonia around WWII.
At 8/9/2013 9:41:24 AM, wrichcirw wrote:
If you are civil with me, I will be civil to you. If you decide to bring unreasonable animosity to bear in a reasonable discussion, then what would you expect other than to get flustered?
bossyburrito
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9/8/2013 3:07:42 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 9/8/2013 12:11:51 PM, proglib wrote:
At 9/8/2013 12:00:50 PM, bossyburrito wrote:
They chose not to have a military. They made a bad decision. That doesn't mean that all an- cap societies will make that mistake.

Excellent discussion.

Pretty good answer at the end, also bossyburrito. [May I call you "bossy?"]
Sure, I guess.
Next question, for me, and it isn't meant rhetorically:

* How does an ancap society create a military to compete with state-sponsored militaries, which one would assume are much more organized?

Well, considering that a strong military are extremely useful, it would be in the society's best interest to keep a well-regulated army. Also, since armies in an an-cap society wouldn't get funded if they're not worth the money (there's no magical bank that they can get an infinite supply of money out of), the only armies that would exist would be damn good ones.

In the spirit of my avatar, I will try to answer my own question a bit [since I really haven't thought of this much in a while]:

* perhaps the internet and crowd funding give us a hint on how to organize at a very sophisticated level without coercion.
Crowd funding is a good example of how an an-cap society would deal with things like this. Only things that the people want to be funded will get funded, and the people don't want a bad military.
#UnbanTheMadman

"Some will sell their dreams for small desires
Or lose the race to rats
Get caught in ticking traps
And start to dream of somewhere
To relax their restless flight
Somewhere out of a memory of lighted streets on quiet nights..."

~ Rush
bossyburrito
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9/8/2013 3:12:15 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 9/8/2013 12:53:07 PM, ClassicRobert wrote:
At 9/8/2013 12:11:51 PM, proglib wrote:

Excellent discussion.

Pretty good answer at the end, also bossyburrito. [May I call you "bossy?"]

Next question, for me, and it isn't meant rhetorically:

* How does an ancap society create a military to compete with state-sponsored militaries, which one would assume are much more organized?

In the spirit of my avatar, I will try to answer my own question a bit [since I really haven't thought of this much in a while]:

* perhaps the internet and crowd funding give us a hint on how to organize at a very sophisticated level without coercion.

In my eyes, it doesn't seem plausible that an ancap military would be able to compete with a state-sponsored military. This is because a functioning military has a massive positive externality, which leads to the free-rider effect. After all, if you benefit from someone else's input, why should you pay into it as well (this also is responding to the crowd funding solution)?

Because if not enough people do, then there won't be any military at all. When funding a military, people know that there are going to be free-riders. They consent to that when giving their money to the military, and, as such, realize that the benefits of not being overrun by another country are far greater than having to pay a bit extra.

So really, the only way this could be effective is if a wealthy elite decided to purchase military might, which would mark the transition from an ancap society to a plutocracy.

How do you get to a plutocracy from that? If the elite followed the laws, then there's no problem. It would be exactly the same as if the citizens funded the army.
#UnbanTheMadman

"Some will sell their dreams for small desires
Or lose the race to rats
Get caught in ticking traps
And start to dream of somewhere
To relax their restless flight
Somewhere out of a memory of lighted streets on quiet nights..."

~ Rush
wrichcirw
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9/8/2013 3:20:35 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 9/8/2013 12:04:52 PM, Such wrote:
At 9/8/2013 12:00:50 PM, bossyburrito wrote:

They chose not to have a military. They made a bad decision. That doesn't mean that all an- cap societies will make that mistake.

That doesn't make much sense, though, now does it? The introduction of a military is a step away from anarchy. In reality, it isn't anarchy at all, anymore.

This pretty much answers the question as to whether or not anarchism is a pipe dream in the affirmative.
At 8/9/2013 9:41:24 AM, wrichcirw wrote:
If you are civil with me, I will be civil to you. If you decide to bring unreasonable animosity to bear in a reasonable discussion, then what would you expect other than to get flustered?
bossyburrito
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9/8/2013 3:23:10 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 9/8/2013 3:20:35 PM, wrichcirw wrote:
At 9/8/2013 12:04:52 PM, Such wrote:
At 9/8/2013 12:00:50 PM, bossyburrito wrote:

They chose not to have a military. They made a bad decision. That doesn't mean that all an- cap societies will make that mistake.

That doesn't make much sense, though, now does it? The introduction of a military is a step away from anarchy. In reality, it isn't anarchy at all, anymore.

This pretty much answers the question as to whether or not anarchism is a pipe dream in the affirmative.

Define anarchy for me.
#UnbanTheMadman

"Some will sell their dreams for small desires
Or lose the race to rats
Get caught in ticking traps
And start to dream of somewhere
To relax their restless flight
Somewhere out of a memory of lighted streets on quiet nights..."

~ Rush
wrichcirw
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9/8/2013 3:24:31 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 9/8/2013 3:23:10 PM, bossyburrito wrote:
At 9/8/2013 3:20:35 PM, wrichcirw wrote:
At 9/8/2013 12:04:52 PM, Such wrote:
At 9/8/2013 12:00:50 PM, bossyburrito wrote:

They chose not to have a military. They made a bad decision. That doesn't mean that all an- cap societies will make that mistake.

That doesn't make much sense, though, now does it? The introduction of a military is a step away from anarchy. In reality, it isn't anarchy at all, anymore.

This pretty much answers the question as to whether or not anarchism is a pipe dream in the affirmative.

Define anarchy for me.

This works fine:

"Anarchism is a political philosophy that advocates stateless societies based on non-hierarchical free associations.[1][2][3][4][5] Anarchism holds the state to be undesirable, unnecessary, or harmful.[6][7] While anti-statism is central, some argue[8] that anarchism entails opposing authority or hierarchical organization in the conduct of human relations, including, but not limited to, the state system."
http://en.wikipedia.org...
At 8/9/2013 9:41:24 AM, wrichcirw wrote:
If you are civil with me, I will be civil to you. If you decide to bring unreasonable animosity to bear in a reasonable discussion, then what would you expect other than to get flustered?
bossyburrito
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9/8/2013 3:29:27 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 9/8/2013 3:24:31 PM, wrichcirw wrote:
At 9/8/2013 3:23:10 PM, bossyburrito wrote:
At 9/8/2013 3:20:35 PM, wrichcirw wrote:
At 9/8/2013 12:04:52 PM, Such wrote:
At 9/8/2013 12:00:50 PM, bossyburrito wrote:

They chose not to have a military. They made a bad decision. That doesn't mean that all an- cap societies will make that mistake.

That doesn't make much sense, though, now does it? The introduction of a military is a step away from anarchy. In reality, it isn't anarchy at all, anymore.

This pretty much answers the question as to whether or not anarchism is a pipe dream in the affirmative.

Define anarchy for me.

This works fine:

"Anarchism is a political philosophy that advocates stateless societies based on non-hierarchical free associations.[1][2][3][4][5] Anarchism holds the state to be undesirable, unnecessary, or harmful.[6][7] While anti-statism is central, some argue[8] that anarchism entails opposing authority or hierarchical organization in the conduct of human relations, including, but not limited to, the state system."
http://en.wikipedia.org...

Ok, and can you define the State for me?
#UnbanTheMadman

"Some will sell their dreams for small desires
Or lose the race to rats
Get caught in ticking traps
And start to dream of somewhere
To relax their restless flight
Somewhere out of a memory of lighted streets on quiet nights..."

~ Rush
wrichcirw
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9/8/2013 3:30:58 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
The idea is very simple: is organization a necessary component to a more effective military, especially aspects like training and developing cohesive tactics and strategy?

IMHO yes, absolutely, and this is why anarchism will fail nearly every time. Everyone is going to be of a differing mind in one way or another, and there are times when even a slight difference can lead to lopsided outcomes on the battlefield. An example I use is a carrot-top soldier forgetting to wear his cover (camouflaged hat) on during a march, thereby giving away his entire unit. In an anarchist's conception of a military, there would be no organization, just a bunch of people running about willy-nilly attempting to prosecute what they perceive to be a common cause.
At 8/9/2013 9:41:24 AM, wrichcirw wrote:
If you are civil with me, I will be civil to you. If you decide to bring unreasonable animosity to bear in a reasonable discussion, then what would you expect other than to get flustered?
wrichcirw
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9/8/2013 3:32:03 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 9/8/2013 3:29:27 PM, bossyburrito wrote:
At 9/8/2013 3:24:31 PM, wrichcirw wrote:

Ok, and can you define the State for me?

http://en.wikipedia.org...(polity)
"A state is an organized community living under a unified political system (government)."

All a state requires is more than one individual, and organization under a system for these individuals. In this sense, a family is easily a microcosm for the state.
At 8/9/2013 9:41:24 AM, wrichcirw wrote:
If you are civil with me, I will be civil to you. If you decide to bring unreasonable animosity to bear in a reasonable discussion, then what would you expect other than to get flustered?
bossyburrito
Posts: 14,075
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9/8/2013 3:35:13 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 9/8/2013 3:32:03 PM, wrichcirw wrote:
At 9/8/2013 3:29:27 PM, bossyburrito wrote:
At 9/8/2013 3:24:31 PM, wrichcirw wrote:

Ok, and can you define the State for me?

http://en.wikipedia.org...(polity)
"A state is an organized community living under a unified political system (government)."

All a state requires is more than one individual, and organization under a system for these individuals. In this sense, a family is easily a microcosm for the state.

Well, I suppose that I agree, using that definition. I use "government" to mean "an entity able to make and enforce laws that can affect everyone within it's claimed jurisdiction".
#UnbanTheMadman

"Some will sell their dreams for small desires
Or lose the race to rats
Get caught in ticking traps
And start to dream of somewhere
To relax their restless flight
Somewhere out of a memory of lighted streets on quiet nights..."

~ Rush