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The Politics Behind Vladimir Putins NYT Op-Ed

jat93
Posts: 1,440
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9/14/2013 8:28:22 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
Vladimir Putin is clearly savoring the moment where he can claim moral high ground over Obama (and thus over America) on the world stage. His regime is being increasingly criticized for its repressive policies on civil rights - widespread torture of prisoners, increased levels of jailing political dissidents, hardcore discrimination against homosexuals, and more. Putin, however, has scored points on the civil liberties front, having harbored Edward Snowden against the efforts of the U.S. to extradite him and pursue serious legal action. (Of course, this was seen more as a snub against the U.S. than it was a stand for civil liberties/whisteblowers.) In this case, as a willing leader at the center of the push for a peaceful resolution to the Syrian conflict, he gets to present himself to the world as a dove. The G20 conference was also just held in Russia. Putin is no doubt going to great lengths to portray himself as a true statesman - one capable of leading a superpower that can take the helm of a serious international conflict and responsibly steer it toward a diplomatic solution... Something the U.S. hasn't been able to pull of successfully in years. How could he resist the temptation to jump on this? It all comes down to the most basic political principles.

Even more importantly, though, he wants to portray himself and his country as an alternative to the U.S. in terms of geopolitical leadership. As the power structures in the realm of international politics shift rapidly, and U.S. hegemony is being increasingly rejected more and more strongly and openly, he's chosen the perfect time to push the limit. And so far he's seized the moment with smooth, seasoned political flourish. But what remains to be seen is how Barack Obama and his administration respond to the challenge. Because right now, if Vladimir Putin can successfully rag on America's military industrial complex in the most prominent American newspaper and get away with it, they have reason to be scared.
AnDoctuir
Posts: 11,060
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9/14/2013 8:40:17 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
You know that whole criminalizing homosexuality bit is in defiance against America, right? Not too long ago, Emo attire was criminalized there, too. Seems a bid to challenge Americanization, don't ya think? And then maybe if you guys endeared yourself to the Russians a bit things would go a lot more smoothly for people - just a thought. I mean maybe making war isn't the only option here.
AnDoctuir
Posts: 11,060
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9/14/2013 8:44:17 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
Of course you're a libertarian or whatever it is, but just what are you getting at here then? Whatever. Good to see you, dude. I'ma take another break now for a while.
wrichcirw
Posts: 11,196
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9/14/2013 8:45:52 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
I think the OP is making a bit too much of a rhetorical argument.

It's a simple power play. Putin wants to have power located in the UN because of the disparity between US/Russia power levels...he has successfully used this incident to somewhat dislodge the idea that the US can act unilaterally on this matter.
At 8/9/2013 9:41:24 AM, wrichcirw wrote:
If you are civil with me, I will be civil to you. If you decide to bring unreasonable animosity to bear in a reasonable discussion, then what would you expect other than to get flustered?
Eitan_Zohar
Posts: 2,697
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9/15/2013 11:09:18 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
Good god, this guy is back? I need to clean the anti-Semitic clock a second time?
"It is my ambition to say in ten sentences what others say in a whole book."
wrichcirw
Posts: 11,196
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9/15/2013 11:26:55 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 9/15/2013 11:09:18 AM, Eitan_Zohar wrote:
Good god, this guy is back? I need to clean the anti-Semitic clock a second time?

Irrelevant ad hominem. This discussion has nothing to do with anti-Semitism.
At 8/9/2013 9:41:24 AM, wrichcirw wrote:
If you are civil with me, I will be civil to you. If you decide to bring unreasonable animosity to bear in a reasonable discussion, then what would you expect other than to get flustered?
proglib
Posts: 391
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9/15/2013 11:40:32 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 9/14/2013 8:28:22 PM, jat93 wrote:
Vladimir Putin is clearly savoring the moment where he can claim moral high ground over Obama (and thus over America) on the world stage. His regime is being increasingly criticized for its repressive policies on civil rights - widespread torture of prisoners, increased levels of jailing political dissidents, hardcore discrimination against homosexuals, and more. Putin, however, has scored points on the civil liberties front, having harbored Edward Snowden against the efforts of the U.S. to extradite him and pursue serious legal action. (Of course, this was seen more as a snub against the U.S. than it was a stand for civil liberties/whisteblowers.) In this case, as a willing leader at the center of the push for a peaceful resolution to the Syrian conflict, he gets to present himself to the world as a dove. The G20 conference was also just held in Russia. Putin is no doubt going to great lengths to portray himself as a true statesman - one capable of leading a superpower that can take the helm of a serious international conflict and responsibly steer it toward a diplomatic solution... Something the U.S. hasn't been able to pull of successfully in years. How could he resist the temptation to jump on this? It all comes down to the most basic political principles.

Even more importantly, though, he wants to portray himself and his country as an alternative to the U.S. in terms of geopolitical leadership. As the power structures in the realm of international politics shift rapidly, and U.S. hegemony is being increasingly rejected more and more strongly and openly, he's chosen the perfect time to push the limit. And so far he's seized the moment with smooth, seasoned political flourish. But what remains to be seen is how Barack Obama and his administration respond to the challenge. Because right now, if Vladimir Putin can successfully rag on America's military industrial complex in the most prominent American newspaper and get away with it, they have reason to be scared.

Interesting OP.

Not sure the situation can be broken down this simply, though.

Here's the NY Times Op-Ed.

http://www.nytimes.com...
"I would remind you that extremism in the defense of liberty is no vice.* And let me remind you also that moderation in the pursuit of justice is no virtue." Barry Goldwater
*Except in a democracy it might lose you an election.

http://unitedwegovern.org...
DetectableNinja
Posts: 6,043
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9/15/2013 11:47:31 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
Well, I've just been reading in the paper today that the USA and Russia have finally reached an agreement on Syria, so...
Think'st thou heaven is such a glorious thing?
I tell thee, 'tis not half so fair as thou
Or any man that breathes on earth.

- Christopher Marlowe, Doctor Faustus
DetectableNinja
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9/15/2013 11:49:56 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 9/15/2013 11:09:18 AM, Eitan_Zohar wrote:
Good god, this guy is back? I need to clean the anti-Semitic clock a second time?

1) What relevance does it bear here?

2) Why do you say he's anti-semitic? Because I know that in America, people tend to be REALLY quick to call antisemitism.
Think'st thou heaven is such a glorious thing?
I tell thee, 'tis not half so fair as thou
Or any man that breathes on earth.

- Christopher Marlowe, Doctor Faustus
Eitan_Zohar
Posts: 2,697
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9/15/2013 2:50:33 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 9/15/2013 11:26:55 AM, wrichcirw wrote:
At 9/15/2013 11:09:18 AM, Eitan_Zohar wrote:
Good god, this guy is back? I need to clean the anti-Semitic clock a second time?

Irrelevant ad hominem. This discussion has nothing to do with anti-Semitism.

I'm not joining the discussion. I just noticed that he was back.
"It is my ambition to say in ten sentences what others say in a whole book."
wrichcirw
Posts: 11,196
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9/15/2013 2:53:05 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 9/15/2013 2:50:33 PM, Eitan_Zohar wrote:
At 9/15/2013 11:26:55 AM, wrichcirw wrote:
At 9/15/2013 11:09:18 AM, Eitan_Zohar wrote:
Good god, this guy is back? I need to clean the anti-Semitic clock a second time?

Irrelevant ad hominem. This discussion has nothing to do with anti-Semitism.

I'm not joining the discussion. I just noticed that he was back.

Then maybe you can PM him about your alleged racism, and leave it out of the discussion. I'm sure he'll welcome it just as much as we do.
At 8/9/2013 9:41:24 AM, wrichcirw wrote:
If you are civil with me, I will be civil to you. If you decide to bring unreasonable animosity to bear in a reasonable discussion, then what would you expect other than to get flustered?
Eitan_Zohar
Posts: 2,697
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9/15/2013 4:18:41 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 9/15/2013 2:53:05 PM, wrichcirw wrote:
At 9/15/2013 2:50:33 PM, Eitan_Zohar wrote:
At 9/15/2013 11:26:55 AM, wrichcirw wrote:
At 9/15/2013 11:09:18 AM, Eitan_Zohar wrote:
Good god, this guy is back? I need to clean the anti-Semitic clock a second time?

Irrelevant ad hominem. This discussion has nothing to do with anti-Semitism.

I'm not joining the discussion. I just noticed that he was back.

Then maybe you can PM him about your alleged racism, and leave it out of the discussion. I'm sure he'll welcome it just as much as we do.

His alleged racism.
"It is my ambition to say in ten sentences what others say in a whole book."
DeFool
Posts: 626
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9/15/2013 6:16:39 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
I am eager to insult Putin, and must constantly fight back the urge to replace logic with ad homen taunts directed towards the closeted bastard.

However, in this discussion, insulting him is relevant; he is no peacnik, as he pretends. Therefore, making much of his constant homicides, political imprisonments, lies and flabby horseback moobs is topical.

The fact is, Putin is a war mongering murderer, whose goal is to degrade American influence and to allow the proliferation of tyranny and political killings. His thousands of murders in Chechnya and Russia disqualify him as any sort of exemplar of peace. His only goal here is to harm the diplomatic efforts of the United States to enforce the ban on chemical weapons.
wrichcirw
Posts: 11,196
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9/15/2013 6:32:56 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
lol, madlib time:

I am eager to insult [Obama], and must constantly fight back the urge to replace logic with ad homen taunts directed towards the closeted bastard.

However, in this discussion, insulting him is relevant; he is no peacnik, as he pretends. Therefore, making much of his constant homicides, political imprisonments, lies and [crappy basketball playing] is topical.

The fact is, [Obama] is a war mongering murderer, whose goal is to degrade [Russian] influence and to allow the proliferation of [democracy] and political killings. His thousands of murders in [Iraq] and [Afghanistan] disqualify him as any sort of exemplar of peace. His only goal here is to harm the diplomatic efforts of the [Russians] to [strengthen the regimes in the region].

Wow that was frightening. I barely had to change anything. :o
At 8/9/2013 9:41:24 AM, wrichcirw wrote:
If you are civil with me, I will be civil to you. If you decide to bring unreasonable animosity to bear in a reasonable discussion, then what would you expect other than to get flustered?
DeFool
Posts: 626
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9/15/2013 6:50:07 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 9/15/2013 6:32:56 PM, wrichcirw wrote:
lol, madlib time:

I am eager to insult [Obama], and must constantly fight back the urge to replace logic with ad homen taunts directed towards the closeted bastard.

However, in this discussion, insulting him is relevant; he is no peacnik, as he pretends. Therefore, making much of his constant homicides, political imprisonments, lies and [crappy basketball playing] is topical.

The fact is, [Obama] is a war mongering murderer, whose goal is to degrade [Russian] influence and to allow the proliferation of [democracy] and political killings. His thousands of murders in [Iraq] and [Afghanistan] disqualify him as any sort of exemplar of peace. His only goal here is to harm the diplomatic efforts of the [Russians] to [strengthen the regimes in the region].

Wow that was frightening. I barely had to change anything. :o

It is a false analogy, however, as Obama has never shelled any civilian areas as mercilessly as Putin has. Obama has ended wars, and Putin has sought them. I agree that the President cannot be considered a lover of peace, but he cannot compare to Putin.

For proof of this, compare Obama's conduct in Iraq and Afghanistan to Putin's conduct in Chechnya. If further variances are needed, consider the fact that Putin regularly has journalists that criticize him killed or imprisoned. Then, we may compare the welfare of the Putin critics with the likes of Fox NEWS.
wrichcirw
Posts: 11,196
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9/15/2013 6:59:50 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 9/15/2013 6:50:07 PM, DeFool wrote:
At 9/15/2013 6:32:56 PM, wrichcirw wrote:
lol, madlib time:

I am eager to insult [Obama], and must constantly fight back the urge to replace logic with ad homen taunts directed towards the closeted bastard.

However, in this discussion, insulting him is relevant; he is no peacnik, as he pretends. Therefore, making much of his constant homicides, political imprisonments, lies and [crappy basketball playing] is topical.

The fact is, [Obama] is a war mongering murderer, whose goal is to degrade [Russian] influence and to allow the proliferation of [democracy] and political killings. His thousands of murders in [Iraq] and [Afghanistan] disqualify him as any sort of exemplar of peace. His only goal here is to harm the diplomatic efforts of the [Russians] to [strengthen the regimes in the region].

Wow that was frightening. I barely had to change anything. :o


Madlibs again:

It is a [true] analogy, however, as Obama has [indeed] shelled [] civilian areas as mercilessly as Putin has [via PREDATOR drones]. Obama has ended wars, and [Obama] has sought them [in Libya and now potentially Syria]. I agree that the President cannot be considered a lover of peace, but he can[] compare to Putin.

For proof of this, compare Obama's conduct in Iraq and Afghanistan to Putin's conduct in Chechnya. If further variances are needed, consider the fact that [Obama] regularly has [dissidents] that criticize him killed or imprisoned [via crony proxy forces in the Middle East]. Then, we may compare the welfare of the Putin critics with the likes of Fox NEWS [didn't understand this last sentence].

I'll say that I'm probably pinning a tad too much of this on Obama when Bush takes more credit, but the gist is still largely true, IMHO.
At 8/9/2013 9:41:24 AM, wrichcirw wrote:
If you are civil with me, I will be civil to you. If you decide to bring unreasonable animosity to bear in a reasonable discussion, then what would you expect other than to get flustered?
DeFool
Posts: 626
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9/15/2013 7:04:43 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 9/15/2013 6:59:50 PM, wrichcirw wrote:
At 9/15/2013 6:50:07 PM, DeFool wrote:
At 9/15/2013 6:32:56 PM, wrichcirw wrote:
lol, madlib time:

I am eager to insult [Obama], and must constantly fight back the urge to replace logic with ad homen taunts directed towards the closeted bastard.

However, in this discussion, insulting him is relevant; he is no peacnik, as he pretends. Therefore, making much of his constant homicides, political imprisonments, lies and [crappy basketball playing] is topical.

The fact is, [Obama] is a war mongering murderer, whose goal is to degrade [Russian] influence and to allow the proliferation of [democracy] and political killings. His thousands of murders in [Iraq] and [Afghanistan] disqualify him as any sort of exemplar of peace. His only goal here is to harm the diplomatic efforts of the [Russians] to [strengthen the regimes in the region].

Wow that was frightening. I barely had to change anything. :o


Madlibs again:

It is a [true] analogy, however, as Obama has [indeed] shelled [] civilian areas as mercilessly as Putin has [via PREDATOR drones]. Obama has ended wars, and [Obama] has sought them [in Libya and now potentially Syria]. I agree that the President cannot be considered a lover of peace, but he can[] compare to Putin.

For proof of this, compare Obama's conduct in Iraq and Afghanistan to Putin's conduct in Chechnya. If further variances are needed, consider the fact that [Obama] regularly has [dissidents] that criticize him killed or imprisoned [via crony proxy forces in the Middle East]. Then, we may compare the welfare of the Putin critics with the likes of Fox NEWS [didn't understand this last sentence].

I'll say that I'm probably pinning a tad too much of this on Obama when Bush takes more credit, but the gist is still largely true, IMHO.

Although no admirer of Bush, I still see him as an innocent lamb when compared to Putin. I am not certain that I can support this opinion with facts, however. I would need to look at the body-counts. Who has killed more? Bush or Putin? I am not sure.

Who has oppressed more journalists, religious minorities, civil rights leaders and citizen activists? Again, I am not sure. I suspect that we may need to ask the Iraqis if they feel worse off than the Russians.

Even if we determine that Bush is as vile as Putin, I will continue to hate Putin.
wrichcirw
Posts: 11,196
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9/15/2013 7:49:24 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 9/15/2013 7:04:43 PM, DeFool wrote:
At 9/15/2013 6:59:50 PM, wrichcirw wrote:

Although no admirer of Bush, I still see him as an innocent lamb when compared to Putin. I am not certain that I can support this opinion with facts, however. I would need to look at the body-counts. Who has killed more? Bush or Putin? I am not sure.

Who has oppressed more journalists, religious minorities, civil rights leaders and citizen activists? Again, I am not sure. I suspect that we may need to ask the Iraqis if they feel worse off than the Russians.

Even if we determine that Bush is as vile as Putin, I will continue to hate Putin.

Think of GITMO, think of Abu Ghraib, think of all the other nameless prisons in Iraq that were probably just as dehumanizing and just as condoning of torture as those prisons, think of the hundreds of thousands killed in Iraq alone due to violence (to say nothing about starvation, lack of medical supplies, lack of (possibly) food and running water, etc), think of the amount of political/religious/ethnic oppression that went into the elections that occurred under Maliki, Karzai, and Musharraf, and I think the comparison to at least Bush is apt.

Regardless, I see little to fault with your last sentence. =)
At 8/9/2013 9:41:24 AM, wrichcirw wrote:
If you are civil with me, I will be civil to you. If you decide to bring unreasonable animosity to bear in a reasonable discussion, then what would you expect other than to get flustered?
wrichcirw
Posts: 11,196
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9/15/2013 7:51:32 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
Also remember that this occurred during our occupation:

http://en.wikipedia.org...

We may try to wipe our hands clean of events like this, but the fact is, you break it you buy it, and we broke Iraq.

This event was sectarian and was the catalyst of the de facto civil war that raged in Iraq for years.
At 8/9/2013 9:41:24 AM, wrichcirw wrote:
If you are civil with me, I will be civil to you. If you decide to bring unreasonable animosity to bear in a reasonable discussion, then what would you expect other than to get flustered?
wrichcirw
Posts: 11,196
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9/15/2013 7:54:06 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
Also notice how guilt was assigned - al Qaeda did NOT claim responsibility for the event. Iraqi police forces (more than likely utilizing torture) got a local al Qaeda cell to admit to the bombings.

Sometimes I wonder exactly what was going on in Iraq...whether or not we wanted to break the country to as many pieces as we possibly could, whether or not we cared (at all) about the civilian populace there.
At 8/9/2013 9:41:24 AM, wrichcirw wrote:
If you are civil with me, I will be civil to you. If you decide to bring unreasonable animosity to bear in a reasonable discussion, then what would you expect other than to get flustered?
Naysayer
Posts: 746
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9/15/2013 8:30:49 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 9/15/2013 6:16:39 PM, DeFool wrote:
I am eager to insult Putin, and must constantly fight back the urge to replace logic with ad homen taunts directed towards the closeted bastard.

However, in this discussion, insulting him is relevant; he is no peacnik, as he pretends. Therefore, making much of his constant homicides, political imprisonments, lies and flabby horseback moobs is topical.

The fact is, Putin is a war mongering murderer, whose goal is to degrade American influence and to allow the proliferation of tyranny and political killings. His thousands of murders in Chechnya and Russia disqualify him as any sort of exemplar of peace. His only goal here is to harm the diplomatic efforts of the United States to enforce the ban on chemical weapons.

While no fan of Obama in any regard, this has been my general thought on the Pro-Putin the Heroic garbage. I'm a little disturbed at how libertarians have latched on to everything he says about Obama and the U.S. I'm not a fan of our foreign policy, but it seems to be a louder and louder call for the down fall of the U.S. for its hateful war crimes.

And it occurs to me from a conspiracy point of view that most liberals/progressives when they get out of higher U.S. politics graduate right to U.N. politics, which would seem to indicate that it would be a good thing to them if the U.N. took over sovereignty of the U.S. through our loss of influence.
DeFool
Posts: 626
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9/16/2013 2:30:53 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 9/15/2013 8:30:49 PM, Naysayer wrote:
At 9/15/2013 6:16:39 PM, DeFool wrote:
I am eager to insult Putin, and must constantly fight back the urge to replace logic with ad homen taunts directed towards the closeted bastard.

However, in this discussion, insulting him is relevant; he is no peacnik, as he pretends. Therefore, making much of his constant homicides, political imprisonments, lies and flabby horseback moobs is topical.

The fact is, Putin is a war mongering murderer, whose goal is to degrade American influence and to allow the proliferation of tyranny and political killings. His thousands of murders in Chechnya and Russia disqualify him as any sort of exemplar of peace. His only goal here is to harm the diplomatic efforts of the United States to enforce the ban on chemical weapons.

While no fan of Obama in any regard, this has been my general thought on the Pro-Putin the Heroic garbage. I'm a little disturbed at how libertarians have latched on to everything he says about Obama and the U.S. I'm not a fan of our foreign policy, but it seems to be a louder and louder call for the down fall of the U.S. for its hateful war crimes.

And it occurs to me from a conspiracy point of view that most liberals/progressives when they get out of higher U.S. politics graduate right to U.N. politics, which would seem to indicate that it would be a good thing to them if the U.N. took over sovereignty of the U.S. through our loss of influence.

As a fire-breathing liberal, I do not support UN overthrow of the US, but American overthrow of the UN. I am a nationalist like that.

As for Putin, he is providing a strong, alpha male criticism of Obama, which is what the American right wing craves. His providing that unblinking criticism supersedes his many crimes for these American patriots.

If my ironic taunt was not noticed, I repeat: it is not an act of American patriotism to glorify the Russian Tzar.
Naysayer
Posts: 746
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9/16/2013 2:56:29 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 9/16/2013 2:30:53 PM, DeFool wrote:
At 9/15/2013 8:30:49 PM, Naysayer wrote:
At 9/15/2013 6:16:39 PM, DeFool wrote:
I am eager to insult Putin, and must constantly fight back the urge to replace logic with ad homen taunts directed towards the closeted bastard.

However, in this discussion, insulting him is relevant; he is no peacnik, as he pretends. Therefore, making much of his constant homicides, political imprisonments, lies and flabby horseback moobs is topical.

The fact is, Putin is a war mongering murderer, whose goal is to degrade American influence and to allow the proliferation of tyranny and political killings. His thousands of murders in Chechnya and Russia disqualify him as any sort of exemplar of peace. His only goal here is to harm the diplomatic efforts of the United States to enforce the ban on chemical weapons.

While no fan of Obama in any regard, this has been my general thought on the Pro-Putin the Heroic garbage. I'm a little disturbed at how libertarians have latched on to everything he says about Obama and the U.S. I'm not a fan of our foreign policy, but it seems to be a louder and louder call for the down fall of the U.S. for its hateful war crimes.

And it occurs to me from a conspiracy point of view that most liberals/progressives when they get out of higher U.S. politics graduate right to U.N. politics, which would seem to indicate that it would be a good thing to them if the U.N. took over sovereignty of the U.S. through our loss of influence.

As a fire-breathing liberal, I do not support UN overthrow of the US, but American overthrow of the UN. I am a nationalist like that.

As for Putin, he is providing a strong, alpha male criticism of Obama, which is what the American right wing craves. His providing that unblinking criticism supersedes his many crimes for these American patriots.

If my ironic taunt was not noticed, I repeat: it is not an act of American patriotism to glorify the Russian Tzar.

It's not appealing to me. How does that work with your theory?
DeFool
Posts: 626
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9/16/2013 3:54:17 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 9/16/2013 2:56:29 PM, Naysayer wrote:
At 9/16/2013 2:30:53 PM, DeFool wrote:
At 9/15/2013 8:30:49 PM, Naysayer wrote:
At 9/15/2013 6:16:39 PM, DeFool wrote:
I am eager to insult Putin, and must constantly fight back the urge to replace logic with ad homen taunts directed towards the closeted bastard.



If my ironic taunt was not noticed, I repeat: it is not an act of American patriotism to glorify the Russian Tzar.

It's not appealing to me. How does that work with your theory?

By repeatedly pointing out that Putin is a murderous dictator, I hope to argue that he cannot be considered a trustworthy ally of any peace movement.
Naysayer
Posts: 746
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9/16/2013 4:00:39 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 9/16/2013 3:54:17 PM, DeFool wrote:
At 9/16/2013 2:56:29 PM, Naysayer wrote:
At 9/16/2013 2:30:53 PM, DeFool wrote:
At 9/15/2013 8:30:49 PM, Naysayer wrote:
At 9/15/2013 6:16:39 PM, DeFool wrote:
I am eager to insult Putin, and must constantly fight back the urge to replace logic with ad homen taunts directed towards the closeted bastard.



If my ironic taunt was not noticed, I repeat: it is not an act of American patriotism to glorify the Russian Tzar.

It's not appealing to me. How does that work with your theory?

By repeatedly pointing out that Putin is a murderous dictator, I hope to argue that he cannot be considered a trustworthy ally of any peace movement.

Anyone with a brain knows that. Better hope the news media picks it up or your cause is lost.
DeFool
Posts: 626
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9/17/2013 3:54:47 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 9/16/2013 4:00:39 PM, Naysayer wrote:
At 9/16/2013 3:54:17 PM, DeFool wrote:
At 9/16/2013 2:56:29 PM, Naysayer wrote:
At 9/16/2013 2:30:53 PM, DeFool wrote:
At 9/15/2013 8:30:49 PM, Naysayer wrote:
At 9/15/2013 6:16:39 PM, DeFool wrote:
I am eager to insult Putin, and must constantly fight back the urge to replace logic with ad homen taunts directed towards the closeted bastard.



If my ironic taunt was not noticed, I repeat: it is not an act of American patriotism to glorify the Russian Tzar.

It's not appealing to me. How does that work with your theory?

By repeatedly pointing out that Putin is a murderous dictator, I hope to argue that he cannot be considered a trustworthy ally of any peace movement.

Anyone with a brain knows that. Better hope the news media picks it up or your cause is lost.

I will place my full faith and confidence in the American news media, with no reservations. Because they are so competent.
proglib
Posts: 391
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9/17/2013 11:28:28 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 9/16/2013 2:30:53 PM, DeFool wrote:
At 9/15/2013 8:30:49 PM, Naysayer wrote:
At 9/15/2013 6:16:39 PM, DeFool wrote:
I am eager to insult Putin, and must constantly fight back the urge to replace logic with ad homen taunts directed towards the closeted bastard.

However, in this discussion, insulting him is relevant; he is no peacnik, as he pretends. Therefore, making much of his constant homicides, political imprisonments, lies and flabby horseback moobs is topical.

The fact is, Putin is a war mongering murderer, whose goal is to degrade American influence and to allow the proliferation of tyranny and political killings. His thousands of murders in Chechnya and Russia disqualify him as any sort of exemplar of peace. His only goal here is to harm the diplomatic efforts of the United States to enforce the ban on chemical weapons.

While no fan of Obama in any regard, this has been my general thought on the Pro-Putin the Heroic garbage. I'm a little disturbed at how libertarians have latched on to everything he says about Obama and the U.S. I'm not a fan of our foreign policy, but it seems to be a louder and louder call for the down fall of the U.S. for its hateful war crimes.

And it occurs to me from a conspiracy point of view that most liberals/progressives when they get out of higher U.S. politics graduate right to U.N. politics, which would seem to indicate that it would be a good thing to them if the U.N. took over sovereignty of the U.S. through our loss of influence.

As a fire-breathing liberal, I do not support UN overthrow of the US, but American overthrow of the UN. I am a nationalist like that.

As for Putin, he is providing a strong, alpha male criticism of Obama, which is what the American right wing craves. His providing that unblinking criticism supersedes his many crimes for these American patriots.

If my ironic taunt was not noticed, I repeat: it is not an act of American patriotism to glorify the Russian Tzar.

I concur with DeFool.

Certainly Obama has the blood of innocents on his hands due to authorizing drone strikes, and other reasons. False equivalency with a murderous dictator such as Putin does not serve the interests of peace and human rights, however.

I'm far from an expert or even advanced amateur on the facts of war and such. However, IMHO any conscience adult following world news even slightly can see what Putin's about.
"I would remind you that extremism in the defense of liberty is no vice.* And let me remind you also that moderation in the pursuit of justice is no virtue." Barry Goldwater
*Except in a democracy it might lose you an election.

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