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PoeJoe
Posts: 3,822
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12/23/2009 2:12:35 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
I was wondering what the community thought of this statement:

"Regardless if you support President Obama or not, you should respect the Office of the President, and treat It with dignity. You may not agree with Obama's policy or political tactics. You may not agree with Obama's political views. But at the very least, you should be courteous when talking about the Presidential Office."

I don't want this to turn into a thread about Obama. Mainly, I want to discuss whether you should inherently respect the Office of the President. In fact, in that paragaph, you can change Obama to Bush, or Clinton, or Bush Sr., or Regan, or Carter, or Stephen Harper, or Gordon Brown, or Kevin Michael Rudd, etc. Doesn't really matter. Question here is: should we treat the Office of the President/Prime Minister with respect, regardless of political disagreement?
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Reasoning
Posts: 4,456
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12/23/2009 2:21:00 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 12/23/2009 2:12:35 PM, PoeJoe wrote:
I was wondering what the community thought of this statement:

"Regardless if you support President Obama or not, you should respect the Office of the President, and treat It with dignity. You may not agree with Obama's policy or political tactics. You may not agree with Obama's political views. But at the very least, you should be courteous when talking about the Presidential Office."

I don't want this to turn into a thread about Obama. Mainly, I want to discuss whether you should inherently respect the Office of the President. In fact, in that paragaph, you can change Obama to Bush, or Clinton, or Bush Sr., or Regan, or Carter, or Stephen Harper, or Gordon Brown, or Kevin Michael Rudd, etc. Doesn't really matter. Question here is: should we treat the Office of the President/Prime Minister with respect, regardless of political disagreement?

You should treat him with the same respect that you would any member of a band of crooks.
"What we really ought to ask the liberal, before we even begin addressing his agenda, is this: In what kind of society would he be a conservative?" - Joseph Sobran
mattrodstrom
Posts: 12,028
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12/23/2009 2:21:06 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
Sure, I think our constitutional democracy ought to be respected and the office of the president is constitutional and a very important part of our govt.

Though I wouldn't say this in any way means you ought not criticize the decisions/acts/political stances of the person, or the nature of the office as it now stands.
This respect only means that you ought not discuss the person/office in too light, or unreasonable, a manner.
"He who does not know how to put his will into things at least puts a meaning into them: that is, he believes there is a will in them already."

Metaphysics:
"The science.. which deals with the fundamental errors of mankind - but as if they were the fundamental truths."
Volkov
Posts: 9,765
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12/23/2009 2:21:56 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
Oh, absolutely. Regardless of who is in power, the office they hold deserves the utmost respect. It not only signifies the power they hold, but the decisions that got them there, whether it be policy or electoral. It represents the collective will of those that make up and empower the nation to put that individual in that spot. If you disrespect the office, you're not spitting on the individual - you're spitting on the country itself.

Besides, what good does it do if you are an opposition party, vying for that position, to attack it? Individuals want to elect you on the basis of what you'll do in that position, not on how you'll disrespect it.
Danielle
Posts: 21,330
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12/23/2009 2:33:16 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
Tough question.

It'd be easy for me to agree with Volkov, because he makes an excellent point. However, I loathed GWB. It's hard to respect someone you think is working immorally to deliberately further their own interests while hurting others. You might not agree with Obama's policy, but do people really think he's acting corruptly? If it's the system itself you have a problem with (Reasoning), that's one thing. But if the individual is abusing their power and their position, than that's another thing. I did not respect GWB. I think he blatantly acted in the disinterest of the country for selfish reasons. I don't believe he did the best that he could, which is all you could really ask for (and expect) from someone in that position whether you agree with their views or not.
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Cody_Franklin
Posts: 9,483
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12/23/2009 3:11:07 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
I think the office definitely deserves respect; while it's easy for us to sit back and criticize (armchair politicians, anyone?), we must also understand the difficulty and moral weight that each presidential decision carries. As the "leader of the free world", there's naturally going to be an enormous amount of pressure, considering that the President's decisions affect not only him, but every single citizen, and the image of the United States, and the countries with whom we interact, and especially our nation's future. To put it simply, it's easy to find weaknesses with anyone who enters the oval office; however, if any of us ever finds him/herself in the hot seat, I'm sure that we would all find it far more difficult to call the shots.
Kleptin
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12/23/2009 4:55:33 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 12/23/2009 2:21:00 PM, Reasoning wrote:
You should treat him with the same respect that you would any member of a band of crooks.

If I ran into one in a dark alley, you can bet I'd be respectful.
: At 5/2/2010 2:43:54 PM, innomen wrote:
It isn't about finding a theory, philosophy or doctrine and thinking it's the answer, but a practical application of one's experiences that is the answer.

: At 10/28/2010 2:40:07 PM, jharry wrote: I have already been given the greatest Gift that anyone could ever hope for [Life], I would consider myself selfish if I expected anything more.
mattrodstrom
Posts: 12,028
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12/23/2009 5:55:35 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 12/23/2009 2:21:56 PM, Volkov wrote:
Oh, absolutely. Regardless of who is in power, the office they hold deserves the utmost respect. It not only signifies the power they hold, but the decisions that got them there,

Which if you disagree with you ought to criticize

whether it be policy or electoral. It represents the collective will of those that make up and empower the nation to put that individual in that spot.

A lot of people don't vote for the guy that gets elected, and saying that you don't think he's the best guy for the job is AOK, though focusing on that and not on the current realities and the job he's doing, is not productive, and when done in excess does seem to not show proper seriousness in considering the issue.

If you disrespect the office, you're not spitting on the individual - you're spitting on the country itself.

Besides, what good does it do if you are an opposition party, vying for that position, to attack it? Individuals want to elect you on the basis of what you'll do in that position, not on how you'll disrespect it.

Saying what you think is good, though on such serious issues, I do think one should be careful to only say that which you think is productive.

If you really think a President is doing a bad job, you should say so in an effort to get the right thing done.
"He who does not know how to put his will into things at least puts a meaning into them: that is, he believes there is a will in them already."

Metaphysics:
"The science.. which deals with the fundamental errors of mankind - but as if they were the fundamental truths."
LeafRod
Posts: 1,548
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12/23/2009 6:03:55 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
I think, yes. Now, if you do actually feel that a president is corrupt and actually going against what he should be intending to do, then perhaps you don't have to show respect.

If theLwerd actually thought (not doubting you, just providing an example) that someone like Bush was not doing what he thought was good for the people, then she doesn't have to show respect for him.

However, if theLwerd just disagreed vehemently with his policies, and even thought they were stupid and wrong, I think Bush still deserved her respect, because at least he was doing what he thought was right.

It sort of goes along with the idea that people should generally be respected, especially, in the case of the president, someone who has no doubt put a lot of effort and work into getting to his position.
Volkov
Posts: 9,765
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12/23/2009 6:23:48 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 12/23/2009 5:55:35 PM, mattrodstrom wrote:
Which if you disagree with you ought to criticize

Indeed, you ought to criticize every single person that thinks slightly differently than you, because you know offending millions of people is an excellent idea!

Just so you're aware, matt, I'm not talking about personal decisions on the part of the candidate, but the decisions of those that worked on a campaign, that voted, that thought critically, etc. If you disagree with them, superb - but you're criticizing them, not the position.

A lot of people don't vote for the guy that gets elected, and saying that you don't think he's the best guy for the job is AOK, though focusing on that and not on the current realities and the job he's doing, is not productive, and when done in excess does seem to not show proper seriousness in considering the issue.

No, matt, I'm not talking about the individual - I'm talking about the position. The pee-oh-es-aye-tee-aye-oh-en, if that helps. Not the individual - I don't care about the individual.

Saying what you think is good, though on such serious issues, I do think one should be careful to only say that which you think is productive.

If you really think a President is doing a bad job, you should say so in an effort to get the right thing done.

Yes - criticize the President. What would I care? Not one bit. Had you bothered to read anything, you would realize that. But, no, apparently this was too much work.

The point is that there is a difference between the position, and the individual. If you wish to criticize the individual, then please, go ahead. But the position is something you shouldn't criticize, because the position is something you want to say you'll do something different in, not destroy it.
mattrodstrom
Posts: 12,028
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12/23/2009 6:44:42 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 12/23/2009 6:23:48 PM, Volkov wrote:
But the position is something you shouldn't criticize, because the position is something you want to say you'll do something different in, not destroy it.

Criticizing the position itself is AOK too if you think it ought to be different, or be done away with.

Though that doesn't mean you should 'disrespect' it. I think respect for our constitutional process of democracy is rather important.

You should try to make people understand what you think, and push for what you think is right, including, if you so think, getting rid of the presidency.
"He who does not know how to put his will into things at least puts a meaning into them: that is, he believes there is a will in them already."

Metaphysics:
"The science.. which deals with the fundamental errors of mankind - but as if they were the fundamental truths."
mattrodstrom
Posts: 12,028
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12/23/2009 6:48:40 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 12/23/2009 6:23:48 PM, Volkov wrote:

Just so you're aware, matt, I'm not talking about personal decisions on the part of the candidate, but the decisions of those that worked on a campaign, that voted, that thought critically, etc.

I think you also said their policies: "whether it be policy or electoral"
Thats what I was responding to.

You didn't only say the decisions of the voters, thinkers, & campaign workers, but also the political decisions of the candidates themselves.
"He who does not know how to put his will into things at least puts a meaning into them: that is, he believes there is a will in them already."

Metaphysics:
"The science.. which deals with the fundamental errors of mankind - but as if they were the fundamental truths."
johngriswald
Posts: 1,294
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12/23/2009 10:10:29 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
Yes you should always respect the leader of your country and I inherently respect the leader of my country. Although 90% of the liberals demanding respect for Obama did not show the same for Bush.

Members of Congress, now that's a different story.
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Reasoning
Posts: 4,456
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12/23/2009 10:13:57 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 12/23/2009 10:10:29 PM, johngriswald wrote:
Yes you should always respect the leader of your country and I inherently respect the leader of my country. Although 90% of the liberals demanding respect for Obama did not show the same for Bush.

Reductio ad absurdum.

Ought the German citizens to have respected Hitler?
"What we really ought to ask the liberal, before we even begin addressing his agenda, is this: In what kind of society would he be a conservative?" - Joseph Sobran
Ragnar_Rahl
Posts: 19,297
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12/24/2009 9:37:38 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
No.
It came to be at its height. It was commanded to command. It was a capital before its first stone was laid. It was a monument to the spirit of man.
Cerebral_Narcissist
Posts: 10,806
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12/24/2009 9:41:50 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
I remember on one political forum this was often waved in my face in response to my anti-Bush rants. However as Bush bought the Presidency I did not feel it held a lot of water. Of course the same pro-Bush republican 'you must respect the sanctity of the office' types, thought that animated pictures of cartoon characters urinating on Obama's face and pictures of him photoshopped as a monkey were hilarious.

On a serious note though maybe we should strive to give respect to our leaders, we should not give them our trust or love and when their failures become too much too bare then they no longer deserve anything from us at all.
I am voting for Innomen because of his intelligence, common sense, humility and the fact that Juggle appears to listen to him. Any other Presidential style would have a large sub-section of the site up in arms. If I was President I would destroy the site though elitism, others would let it run riot. Innomen represents a middle way that works, neither draconian nor anarchic and that is the only way things can work. Plus he does it all without ego trips.
Rezzealaux
Posts: 2,251
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12/24/2009 2:40:04 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
The office can go Are Ee Es Pee Ee serve itself tea and Kay Ai Es Es my defecating behind.
: If you weren't new here, you'd know not to feed me such attention. This is like an orgasm in my brain right now. *hehe, my name is in a title, hehe* (http://www.debate.org...)

Just in case I get into some BS with FREEDO again about how he's NOT a narcissist.

"The law is there to destroy evil under the constitutional government."
So... what's there to destroy evil inside of and above the constitutional government?
Ragnar_Rahl
Posts: 19,297
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12/24/2009 3:01:29 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
It can go Respe serve itself tea? What?
It came to be at its height. It was commanded to command. It was a capital before its first stone was laid. It was a monument to the spirit of man.
studentathletechristian8
Posts: 5,810
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12/27/2009 9:23:06 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 12/23/2009 10:13:57 PM, Reasoning wrote:
At 12/23/2009 10:10:29 PM, johngriswald wrote:
Yes you should always respect the leader of your country and I inherently respect the leader of my country. Although 90% of the liberals demanding respect for Obama did not show the same for Bush.

Reductio ad absurdum.

Ought the German citizens to have respected Hitler?

Yes. They should have respected the fact that he was a rising leader and that he was a force to be reckoned with. Heck, I respect Hitler all the way up until his mass murdering.

And L, I have also developed a non-sexual crush on a member of this site. I feel embarrassed to say it right now, though........
johngriswald
Posts: 1,294
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12/27/2009 9:34:57 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 12/27/2009 9:23:06 PM, studentathletechristian8 wrote:
At 12/23/2009 10:13:57 PM, Reasoning wrote:
At 12/23/2009 10:10:29 PM, johngriswald wrote:
Yes you should always respect the leader of your country and I inherently respect the leader of my country. Although 90% of the liberals demanding respect for Obama did not show the same for Bush.

Reductio ad absurdum.

Ought the German citizens to have respected Hitler?

Yes. They should have respected the fact that he was a rising leader and that he was a force to be reckoned with. Heck, I respect Hitler all the way

So stealing Jew's business, starving them, working them unfairly, robbing them, segregating them.

That was all fine and respectful. It's just when he started murdering them en masse that he stepped over the line?
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studentathletechristian8
Posts: 5,810
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12/27/2009 9:46:20 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 12/27/2009 9:34:57 PM, johngriswald wrote:
At 12/27/2009 9:23:06 PM, studentathletechristian8 wrote:
At 12/23/2009 10:13:57 PM, Reasoning wrote:
At 12/23/2009 10:10:29 PM, johngriswald wrote:
Yes you should always respect the leader of your country and I inherently respect the leader of my country. Although 90% of the liberals demanding respect for Obama did not show the same for Bush.

Reductio ad absurdum.

Ought the German citizens to have respected Hitler?

Yes. They should have respected the fact that he was a rising leader and that he was a force to be reckoned with. Heck, I respect Hitler all the way

So stealing Jew's business, starving them, working them unfairly, robbing them, segregating them.

That was all fine and respectful. It's just when he started murdering them en masse that he stepped over the line?

Sorry, I was being to general with my post. Your phrase, "So stealing Jew's business, starving them, working them unfairly, robbing them, segregating them," is where I lose my respect. I didn't make it quite clear. I just used "murder" as a general term for both the Holocaust and one of his vicious techniques of hurting others. My apologies. I respected him when he was a brilliant statesman and gifted orator, but other than that, not really. Btw, it wasn't only Jews ;)
Reasoning
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12/27/2009 10:04:54 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 12/27/2009 9:23:06 PM, studentathletechristian8 wrote:
At 12/23/2009 10:13:57 PM, Reasoning wrote:
At 12/23/2009 10:10:29 PM, johngriswald wrote:
Yes you should always respect the leader of your country and I inherently respect the leader of my country. Although 90% of the liberals demanding respect for Obama did not show the same for Bush.

Reductio ad absurdum.

Ought the German citizens to have respected Hitler?

Yes. They should have respected the fact that he was a rising leader and that he was a force to be reckoned with. Heck, I respect Hitler all the way up until his mass murdering.

You can acknowledge someone without respecting them.
"What we really ought to ask the liberal, before we even begin addressing his agenda, is this: In what kind of society would he be a conservative?" - Joseph Sobran